 Good afternoon everybody and thank you for joining us for another weekly show on condo insider. I'm your host for today. And today we're going to be talking about roof warranties, which is a really important topic for a lot of condo boards. And even the general managers and resident managers to know this information. So, my guest today is Sam de Almeida with Harper when he carries or he knows all about the warranty business on roofs. So Sam, thank you for joining me today. And being my guest and kind of giving us a little tutorial about roof warranties. Glad to be here. So what, what give us the lesson. What is the main points that we need to as board members we really need to know when we're looking at doing a roof and then also looking at the warranties. Because we want to get as much as we can out of the life of our roof and also do the protections, because we want to try to avoid all those massive increases and maintenance fees. You know, so we kind of want to, you know, be due diligent and really get as much as we can out of our investment. It is a dizzying rate of different types of manufacturers warranties out there when it comes to roofing. So I'm trying to go through it fairly quickly because there are probably about half a dozen different types of warranties out there that you want to be aware of. And the ones that you're most commonly come across and they have different names because just keep in mind the warranties are a marketing tool that manufacturers use to sell their product. But the main ones that you're going to come across, if you're looking at commercial warranties are total system warranties, sometimes called NDLs, which NDL stands for no dollar limit. Another type is the weather type warranty or also known as a leak free warranty. That's pretty common out there. And then labor materials warranty is another type of warranty that you'll often hear about. And then finally, materials warranty or just a membrane warranty. And I listed them in an order of how much coverage you get. So the total system warranty or NDL warranty is the warranty that's backed by the manufacturer. So not only do you get a warranty from the installer, but you also get a warranty from the manufacturer for the length of the warranty. So typically you'll see 20 year total system warranty. And those are typically for roof systems that are either brand new or completely removed your old roofing system and install a new one. So what that means with a total system warranty, you'll need a applicator that's trained and install to install that type of system. And they'll follow the manufacturer's requirements and all the components of the roof system has to be approved by the manufacturer. So it's an exhaustive list and extensive warranty that's backed for up to 20 years and you can go longer than that, but typically 20 years is the standard that you'll typically see. And that's the type of warranty that gives the building owner the best peace of mind because if there's any faders, whether it's due to materials or due to the installation, it'll be covered by either the roofing contractor. For the first two years, or the roofing manufacturer, which is from the 30 on. So you'll also have 10 year options as well. So just depending on the type of roof system that's installed will determine the length of warranty. Secondary type of warranty that's out there that's probably a little bit below the total warranty is the weather type warranty, or the leak free warranty it's also referred to I've seen. And what that covers is if there's any leaks or any issues in terms of the performance of the roof system that will be also covered. But it doesn't cover all the different components of the roof so it wouldn't cover if there was say a problem with the roof insulation, which is below the say the metal roof or the membrane roof and wouldn't cover the edge metal like the drip edge. So there are some limitations but still gives a pretty good warranty. And it's again covers both materials and labor for the life of the warranty. And that typically goes up to 20 years. Labor materials one tree is what you'll see most commonly out there. And labor materials warranties, they have some limitations, typically what happens it's paraded meaning over the time of the roof that's installed it will lose its value in terms of how much the warranty will cover. So maybe, you know in the first two years of the life of the roof, they'll cover approximately say 90% if there's a failure in the roof in terms of the total cost but as the years go by it loses its value. So that's sort of one of the drawbacks on those type of warranties. They're pretty commonly available, just about every manufacturer provides those, but their limitations are that they lose value. And there's a lot of other limitations, they'll only cover the warranty if it's to do with the defect in the material. So if it wasn't installed correctly, they won't cover that like the other two warranties. It's only if there's a problem with the materials, and that building on it can show or provide samples of the roofing that's failed, and then they'll do a review, and then you'll get some money back after some sort of paraded kind of a thing. Yeah, so that's that's sort of the third tier kind of warranties and that's the ones that's most often provided on a lot of projects here. And the other two that I mentioned there's typically a fee involved because an inspector will come from the manufacturer, and typically just about all the manufacturers are based on the mainland so they'll send a technical field rep that will come out and do an inspection, and they'll go through and make sure that everything was installed by per the manufacturer's requirements. Wow. Yeah, I have to fly somebody out to Hawaii to do an inspection. Yeah, and that's their full time job. And that inspector is separate from the sales side. So that's his main concern is just doing the inspection and making sure it meets all the manufacturers requirements because keep in mind they're going to cover that for up to 20 years, sometimes even 30 but typically 20 is a sort of a typical type of membrane you have. I have a question. So, you have it installed by one of your approved contractors because a contractor has to be approved through your company in order to do it right. So, what happens in the, in the years following after installation, and the, the company goes out of business. So with the total system warranty or an MDL that's covered by the manufacturer, even if the company's gone out of business. So you get that additional coverage without even having to have that original contractor, because what they'll often do is they'll use another manufacturer that's approved to do the warranty repairs. So that's what's great about those types of systems they do cost more and they are more extensive, extensive in terms of the assembly so the requirements are pretty stringent. And they have to use manufacturers materials because that way eliminates any incompatibility issues with the materials so every component of a system has been tested and vetted by the manufacturer. So often you'll find that that type of, not only that warranty costing additional but also the entire roof system for the components costing a little bit more, because the roof is not allowed to go and buy different products and different types of products and make them fit hodgepodge, it has to be pretty specific to how it's applied, and even including the type of materials to use for the application. That's right. Yeah. So that's, that's what makes a little bit more expensive. But as you can see, in the long run it will save you money because let's say the contractor goes out of business then it's all backed up there's no, well we use the different product here well we're not going to cover that no that's all covered. So that's what they call a total system warranty or no dollar limit as well so they're not going to prorate it or say we're just going to cover this much. We're not going to replace the whole roof in some instances they might end up redoing the whole roof if it's a pretty bad failure. So how does it work when they, the association, you know they on the building they, they redo the roof. And then what if later either a cell tower is installed or solar panels are installed. How does impact the warranty. That's a very good question. And a lot of times, what happens is they allow and contact a installer say a solar installer and they'll go and start making holes in the roof. And they they're not following the manufacturer's guidelines and that voids the warranty so it's very important before you do anything to the roof that's going to affect it. They'll directly affect it, call the manufacturer and say what do I need. They'll have guidelines and the guidelines will often be. Make sure you have an approved roof, it doesn't have to be the same roof for the install roof just approve. And they'll do the appropriate details. And then they'll do a re inspection of what was installed, and they'll sign off on it. They install a say the most classic example of solar panels if they install a solar panel and they're punching a whole bunch of holes and it leaks. And it was never vetted or approved then it's on them. It's like, well, you're gonna have to call your solar installer, because your warranties being voided because they weren't approved and they weren't. So it's worth it's voted for the entire roof. In the areas that it was installed wherever the air and some, you know, typically they'll just say, as a sort of, I guess, catch all like your warranties voided but technically it's just wherever the penetrations are but at that point, you've pretty much caused issues because the moisture can move around and so I've seen too many examples of that, especially when solar first came in the first several years. Probably, at least two three roots a year that we're having a lot of issues where the moisture and rain was just coming down the walls and ceiling so it's very important that you do that. So, when they, when they install the solar it's going to get reinspected. Is it kind of like reinspected by the same guy that checks for the defects the same. Yes, yes it'll be this field service represent from the manufacturer will come out again and respect it. If it's a minor thing like a cell tower or just maybe a satellite dish then just a couple photos from the installer will will suffice, but typically on the solar one it will be an inspection fee and an actual technical representative coming out there because that's quite extensive. There's actually nobody here locally that does that. Often there, someone like myself like the manufacturer representing will go out there and take a bunch of photos and send it back to the technical review and they'll review it. But most cases they still have the representative come out and do a thorough inspection, especially on fairly large projects. Wow that's pretty. I want to say intricate because they actually physically come out. Yeah, get up on the roof and do that. So, are what kind of are the warranties different based upon the type of material that is used. I basically went through the three major ones the fourth one is materials warranty. And you must might also hear it as a membrane warranty or limited lifetime warranty. And that final one is just if there's any issues with the membrane or roof covering, they'll replace the materials at no charge but you still have to install it so that one. Excuse me, will cover any type of roofing material where it shingles metal. So that's most common. The others that I mentioned the total system on to that's typically on the low slope, the flat roofs. So that's on single ply like tpi PVC, modified bitumen those cap sheet type of roofs. And that's where you'll see that primarily and this only applies to, of course, commercial roofs, not residential. Because residential home on a roof. They're typically just the membrane or the roof covering warranties. They want to do the whole. Excuse me total system warranties those are strictly for commercial government type buildings. The word of condos come in are they still under under. They're still under commercial yet. Townhouses. Townhouses if they're, they're typically fall on the residential. So when it's steep pitched or slow Bruce like as well shingles. So those would just be typically materials only warranties there are a few manufacturers that I know of that will provide labor and materials wanting to but none of them do the NdL total system warranties. They still have a lot of restrictions because on those type of roofs they don't do the edge metal or valleys or any summer. Other components. Like when you have different regions and right exactly yeah. So that's why it's a little bit limited on that and it's sort of developing and changing throughout the years. And another thing that ties in with the roofing manufacturers warranty is the contractor warranties. So keep in mind the roofing contractor provides the warranty from the company and they'll typically provide a two year obligation to the building and so if anything goes wrong with first two years. Then you'll contact the roofing contractor and and they're and they're obliged by the most roofing or roofing manufacturers to fill their first two years. And in Hawaii, the roofing contractor can provide up to seven years labor warranty, but that's the maximum they can provide by law so they can do a 70 warranty to some roofing contractors on commercial projects. They'll provide a semi warranty but it's it depends it's on the type of job and also the contractor. In that first seven years you're also covered by the roofing contract, which is a, I think a really good thing to have because most parts you want to contact your local roofing contract come out and do the repairs. Okay, so it's kind of interesting because you have your, your pods like ocean and out in the beach where you have single families but they're considered condos. So they would come strictly under a residential versus commercial. So it's going to be more of your buildings that will be commercial. Correct. Yeah, yeah. Some, some of them do meet that commercial type so some of those condos like I know in Mililani, where they have like several units in them, those are typically considered commercial. Okay, so if there's several units like maybe four in a cluster for units in one building. And share the common considered commercial. Correct. Yeah, share. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh, that makes me happier. So you had said earlier about the membrane, explain to us what the membrane is. So the membrane is basically the outside covering on the roof. So typically when you mentioned membrane, that's the low slope roof that we talked about a couple weeks ago. And that means roofs that are typically flat. They do have a bit of a slope typically go up to like a one inch per 12 slope. So those are the risks when you look at you can't really see from the street because they're flat. Okay. So that's what I mean by membrane when when you talk about steep slope roofs, then you took typically talking about shingles, the asphalt type shingles or metal roof. And those warranties are typically just membrane or sorry, only just material only warranties for the most part. But you will find a few manufacturers out there that will give material lab warranty meaning they'll do any repairs over the life of the roof. But again, you got to make sure that it's an approved applicator. What is because you've been in this business for a while so what would you your best recommendation to a condo board when they're looking at a roof project. And let's say we're talking about the building, or even the townhouse. What's your best advice or recommendations for them to consider when they're looking at re roofing and looking at their warranties. And one other thing also you told me earlier was the exclusions that they need to. So yeah, so best thing to look for in a commercial type warranty is a total system warranty or NDL like I mentioned before, which covers all materials and labor for the life of the roof and you get an inspection to make sure that it was all installed correctly. Secondly, a no cap on the warranty, meaning NDL no dollar limitation, meaning that they're not going to limit the amount of money that they're going to cover to repair the defects. So proration or a limit on the actual installation costs to repair it. That's what you don't want. You want them to be able to repair all the defects at no limitation. So that's another thing to look at and no proration. So you don't want prorated meaning that you won't appreciate over time. I've seen some warranties out there. By the end of the 20 or 30 year warranties you're only getting pennies on the dollar what you spent. So it becomes not even worth doing all the paperwork to get that warranty. And lastly, the fourth thing I look for is transferable. That means it's not limited to original owner. So I know a lot of HOAs are not going to transfer for commercial building owners. It's important because they might sell the building. And so they want to be able to sell that warranty along with the building saying that they have a 20 warranty. They might have 15 years left. So it's a good selling point. So those are the main things to look for when you're looking at warranties. And that's what you want to ask manufacturers rep. And another good important thing to note is exclusions. So exclusions are typically materials by others. So things like skylights, those things aren't typically included. Mechanical equipment like HVAC, because it's not manufactured by the roofing company. And then ponding. So ponding is often a concern and that's on low flat roof. So what ponding is is standing water. And that means water that's been there for more than 48 hours. So that can deteriorate the roof faster than the life of the roof expectancy. So that might be an exclusion. And of course I mentioned, of course, non-approved contractors. So you always want a contractor that's approved installing it and incorrect flashing details, meaning they didn't install it as their manufacturer has in their published guidelines. And another thing to be on the lookout for is any excessive foot traffic. So a lot of roofs out there, they're not meant for as a walking day. So, you know, if you have a lot of access from that traffic, you'll get wear and tear. So manufacturers won't cover that. And accidental puncture. So if you have a mechanic going up there and dropping his tools and making holes in it, that's not covered as well. And lastly, we really spoke this about this, but the photovoltaic panels or solar equipment or rooftop equipment, those, like I mentioned, are excluded as well. So you just can be aware of those. But, you know, some of these items can be included in the warranty. You'll just have to ask. So I've seen warranties where they'll include accidental puncture, for example, on the TPO fleece pack system that we talked about the other time. That can be included. Photovoltaic panels, if you get inspected, the flashings around there will be included. So it'll be a watertight warranty, even if there is issues around there. So that's those in the nutshell, what you want to be wary of. Okay, so what about what, okay, big topic for Hawaii, wind damage, hurricanes. I mean, it could be not even a hurricane because we've had instances where the wind is like really bad. You're like, whoa, you know, so what about instances like that if something lands on the roof and creates a puncture? Yeah, so that would be probably another segment altogether, and I get that question a lot. So I'll put it pretty much clear. If there's a hurricane, no warranties are in effect because it's seen as act of God. So yeah, any hurricane related incidents, it's not covered. But high wind events, they are covered. So when we get those high winds like 30, 40 miles an hour, some of the manufacturers have it in their warranty where they'll cover up to 55 miles an hour. And that's sort of the industry standard. And that's on low slope groups. And that means that anything that happens up to 50 miles per hour, the manufacturer will cover the any tears or any blowoffs. And that's only on those total system warranties. Okay. It won't cover any debris landing any projectiles. That's not covered. And you might see out there that they have 120 mile per hour wind warranties. But those are just membrane only warranties. They're not, you know, they're not going to cover the installation and all those types of things. So those are only applies in total system warranty. So I'm getting a little bit off track because it gets really complicated now. That's right. But one thing I wanted to point out to which is a small little slide that I have. Most importantly, just for all the viewers, it's important to remember that at the end of the day, it's the contractor installing it, and the design of the assembly, those are most important. The warranty is, at the end of the day, still a marketing tool, because you still have to care and maintain the route. So that's one of the big things on warranties. If you don't follow the instructions that care maintenance program, then the manufacturer can at any time say, well, you didn't do all these steps. So it's avoided. Just like when you have to do regular oil changes on your car. So, you know, if you don't do those go a lot. So that's really important. So you're going to have to give buildings and also have to have their maintenance records to show that it has been maintained. Right. Like some roofs every once in a while they got to be pressure washed. I know sometimes you get those little plants growing in there that grow in the wet moisture areas. You know, so it still has to be it's not a set it and forget it concept. The most important thing for any building I'm not just always check the drains and have those cleaned out regularly. If you do that, you're probably 80% there. That's the probably the biggest problems when it comes to roofs just the roof drains. And I'm talking about on the low slope flat roofs on the steep slope of course it's the gutters but you know just cleaning the debris. So the biggest things that I've seen that happens on roof. And that's the big issue with punctures damages. When there's too much debris on the roofs attracts insects and the insects can start nesting and causing problems long term. And as well as plants growing because those roots can start cracking apart the membrane. So, you know, main thing is removing that debris because that'll have a place for the plants to grow and for a place for the animals to start digging in. And yeah, that's I find it so the unique to Hawaii. We get we get the best of everything. It comes to that. So Harper was not the only man warranty company around here. There are several others. So, with Harper when we're a group and we represent call and. And so they provide a vast array of different types of warranties for different types of roofing systems but there are probably about 20 manufacturers represent an item over the various types of roofing systems where it's low slope or steep slope. So just check. Yeah. So what I described was a basically a basic guideline that most manufacturers follow from what I've seen in my research. So it's. So when a board is looking at stuff they're not only looking at the material that's being used, and the contractor that's going to apply it and the method of application and following that. But they also have to do research on the different types of warranties from the different companies that are out there. And the roofers. Pretty much. I mean, I guess it's like the roofer has to shop for the one that's going to give us give them the best warranty to their clients. That's right. Yeah, it goes three ways to manufacture the roof and the building. And you guys have only certain approved roofing companies that you all do the warranties with right. That's right. Yeah. Because we've vetted these contractors and have built a team like relationship and we know that they're trained and that they'll follow the requirements that they that they've been taught to do. That's a key thing because what you just said that they're trained so you make your company make sure that they're properly vetted number one that they're the company has sound right. They can actually sound and enough application training and methods of application to follow what's covered under the warranty. Right. And they also readily trained on a regular basis every they'd be updated on some of the new technologies that come out every year. Wow, this was a lot of information in 20 minutes. I knew it was going to be a lot to cover but we did pretty good to get everything in there. We're hearing the end and we may do another one on some other other products where you cover warranties for that will be applicable to condos and townhouses. Or even a single family because we do have a pocket of single families right. So Sam, I really want to thank you for being on the show and being a partner with White Council on educating our condo boards and homeowners. So, thank you everyone for viewing in today. And we hope I hope that Sam and I hope that you got as much really got a lot of information out of this that will help you in making your decisions as board members and doing your fiduciary fiduciary duty and business judgment roles. And we want to give you the tools so that you can make a sound decision that's in the best interests of your condo and your financials. So, Sam, thank you so so much for doing the show with me today. Okay. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Thank you so much for watching think tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on video. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechHawaii.com. Mahalo.