 Oh, hello everyone. Welcome to this meeting of the community preservation act committee. On Thursday, December 1 2022. I'm calling the meeting to order at 601pm pursuant to the decision of the town of Amherst as permitted by the state we are meeting remotely. I'm going to call on committee members. At this time so that we know that you can hear us and that you can be heard. I'm going to go. My name is Sam McLeod at large member chair, Andy. Present. Michelle. Tim. Present. Robin. Matt. Present. And I'm not seeing Dave Williams or Katie Alonzo as of yet, but we do have a forum. So we're able to commence. I'm taking a look at our agenda, although they were Katie's minutes. The first item on the agenda is to approve any outstanding minutes. You know, I don't know if it makes sense for us to do that at this point in time without the minute taker here to make any edits. I guess my one comment I might say now is does anyone who's present here. Have and I see the Katie has just arrived. Does anyone present here have any suggested edits to the updated minutes that were sent by son. These are the minutes of November 10th. Everyone take a look at the minutes. I see a number of fans. I'm not hearing any further edits to the minutes as updated. Katie, do you have any comments on the updated minutes or anything you've received since you last provided them. No, thank you Sam for your early edits and I think I haven't heard from anyone else know. Well, since everyone's or most everyone's had a chance to look at them and there are no further edits. Is there a motion to approve the minutes of November 10th. So move. Is there a second. Second. Was that Michelle. Okay, so we have a motion to approve the minutes of November 10th as submitted. I'm going to go ahead and proceed with the roll call vote. I, Sam McLeod will say yes. Andy. I. Tim. Hi, Matt. Yes. Katie. Hi. Michelle. Hi, Robin. Hi. And I'm not seeing Dave at this moment. So I believe that's a seven to zero vote to approve the minutes. We have a number of presentations scheduled for today. Commencing. Excuse me, Sam. Yes. Oh, we probably should. Yeah. So thank you, Sonya. I very much appreciate you. Bring that up. So we do need a minute taker for the meeting. Including what has just passed. Are there any volunteers? I can volunteer. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much, Matt. So that will be commencing from the onset of the meeting and the vote and from now. I can use the templates that have existed and pass around. It can be quite helpful. Yes. Sam, Sam. Yes. I had just a quick question about minutes. Sure. Since we're recording these. As a video, is there a. A requirement to have. Minutes in writing. There is. I'm seeing Sonya's head nod. Okay. Okay. So a transcript of that. Of a video, you know, of the meeting doesn't count. No. Not at this point. I just was wondering if since we have a video and a recording, if we could have more abbreviated minutes, just of. Not of all the discussion as we've done in the past, but of. Votes. Is that possible? My understanding is that that is possible. Tim. Well, I just submitted the minutes. For the 17th meeting of the 17th, and I did a little bit more abbreviated version than yours, Katie. So. Yeah, good. I just think the past, you know, I've sort of was going based on past experience. And I think which was good when there wasn't a recording. I think it's super helpful to go back to have a record like that. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's fair, but. I would propose that we have something a little simpler. A little more streamlined for folks. Maybe I'll take a look at Tim's and maybe we could. Follow. There were no votes. There were no votes in mind. And previously, when I've done minutes for other committees, I've just listed the vote totals. I haven't said who voted what, which way. In terms of detail, but. We probably need to be consistent. I agree with you. On that. It's, it's certainly helpful to have the videos for the community. My own. Belief is that condense minutes are. Helpful for those reading. It can be a challenge for minute takers in the involved. We've had a lot of meetings with lots of questions and discussions. I think for the time being, we should leave it to the discretion of the minute taker. But the majority of the minutes we've been taking are relatively abbreviated. It gets tough when you have a meeting. With so many questions, such as the last one. So. Well, once that one suggestion would be. In the template of meeting, meeting right up front, indicate that they're available online at and list. How you do website as a possibility. Just in case someone is looking at the minutes, that's actually a good thing to include. Yeah. Because I didn't include it in no Nordic Katie and her minutes, but that might be an interesting point to put that reference point in the videos are quite helpful actually. And. Well, for help. For the minute. Author. No question. Robin was your hand up. Oh yeah, I just wanted to say that when I was working up in Greenfield and I was tasked with taking minutes. It's a, it's a skill to get down to just a really brief assessment of the salient points. But I think that's, that was kind of what I was directed was to take a brief summary of the salient points of any discussion. So the hard part is, is. Doing that while you're taking, figuring that out. It's easier said than done brief. It's hard. But if you can get. You can develop that. Quite hard. Yeah. I rely exclusively on the video tapes. Do the minutes after the fact. So we're hearing somebody's voice. I'm not sure who that is. So one other comment is. Based on our first meeting, the suggested and was made that we. Pose two questions to all applicants. And I went ahead and put them together and Sonya sent them out to all of the applicants. The two questions. Being the following and we gave them until Sunday, this Sunday to respond. So that would be previous. The first two rounds and this round, the two questions were. Can your project move ahead with less CPA funding than has been requested. That's one question. The other was, is it necessary for your project to go forward? Is it necessary for your project to go forward in this year's CPA award cycle? So those two questions have been posed to all applicants. They're beginning to respond. We gave them until December 4th. Some. Applicants or at least one mentioned that they would. Seek to address them in today's. Discussion. But just for your own awareness, those two pertinent questions have been put out there for all applicants. I don't. Let me see who's in the audience. Our first presentation is on Crocker farm elementary. My ground. Doug's out there. So should I bring them in? I do see Doug. I would say let's commence at this time. Okay. Given the nature of our prior meetings. If Doug is available, if not, we'll wait five minutes for him. Of course. I have a question, Sam. While we're waiting. Tonya, you'd send something relative to the community development block grant. I didn't quite. I don't know that quite answered. A question I had. I don't know. It was great, but. Like, do we. Essentially. Is, are there people who are. Like our projects that could double dip. Essentially. I think that to me, that's like the main question is. I see. Your question. Yeah. Well, I was the one that posed the question. And the reason I posed it was. Precisely because the. I was trying to understand the affordable housing. Request for the supplemental rental. Rent supplement. And they. Were getting the funding for the staff person from the community development block grant. And the funding for the payment to the. To the tenants. From. From. From CPA. So. That's an example where they are taking from both pools. Yeah. Sonya, thank you for. Providing the response to Matt's question for all of us to read. I thought it was quite helpful. The two pools certainly still do exist. And there may be some applicants. I don't know. At the moment that request. Funding from both. I know that we do ask. In our application. That could be others. That could be others. They're good. I know that we do ask in our application process. Other sorts of funding that are being sought. So. But I do see that Doug is here, Doug. Can you hear us? Absolutely. Okay. We can see you and I can hear you as well. So. Thank you for taking the time. And we might as well commence with your presentation on the Cracker farm elementary school playgrounds. Floor is all yours. Great. Thank you. So this is a continuation of a request made last year. Last year we had requested funding for both design and construction. As you went through your process and thought about your opportunities and available resources. You had funded about 50,000 or exactly 50,000 for design work. We're getting in the process of, of taking that in, in taking action on that now. And so this is just to follow up and go into the construction phase to, to make an, and adjust the equipment and make repairs and renovations to the kindergarten playground behind Cracker farm. Initially, we'd kind of left the language behind. And so. And so it'll, you know, the focus really is going to be on the kindergarten playground, which is behind the school. And so the, the need to renovate and, and to update the equipment there, but also to make sure that the, to make sure that the, to make sure that the, to make sure that the, to make sure that the, to make sure that the kindergarten playground behind Cracker farm. Initially we've kind of left the language broad to include, you know, all the playgrounds there, really not all the equipment there, but also make it safer and more accessible. It's not currently accessible to students that have mobility challenges. And so that's the, the opportunity here that we're, we're seeking to get funding for is to, to do some repair work there. And so it's, it isn't, you know, it is an area of the, of the, of the play spaces that needs some attention. It's a smaller space. So it's a little more modest request. The other play spaces are much larger area and will require a little more substantial investment. And I think also the, the school PGO is probably going to be much more of a partner with us relative to that larger play space for the older children. So the, so it's really about, you know, trying to, to update the equipment and the space and make it more accessible to students. We do currently have through the town's capital projects and funds for ADA requirements and, and addressing some ADA issues in and around the schools. It's a broad based ADA support of capital funds that we can use and we'll probably use and leverage on this project to help out. But other than that, we've not made any other formal requests of, of certain capital or anyone for, for this project. So that kind of gets to one of the questions is asked for. And so I, you've seen the application we've given you pictures. That sort of thing that the need is there. It's, it is a school we're going to continue to be in for a long time, making investment in this is, is we think valuable and, and using CBA dollars to help with that. It makes sense to us as well. And it is a community resource. So it is, it is a space that gets used for the school, but also for anybody that lives in the area, when schools not in session, they can come and use the space and it is accessible from that, from that standpoint. And the one other question that you guys ask about a little bit is, is whether or not, if the funding were to be pushed back, would that be okay? I think for us, we can, we can manage that for sure. We'd like to kind of keep the project moving as we do design, you know, this winter and spring, but at the same time, if, if it's such that, you know, in your, you know, evaluation of your resources and timing and that sort of thing, if we were to be pushed off, that would be fine. It's unlikely if we got a design in place by the late spring, we'd be able to contract with anyone to work on it this summer. So, so having funding on July one is not as critical. And so it would be okay if it went into a subsequent cycle, if it had to, certainly we'd love for you to fund it. We take action as best and as quickly as we could, if you did fund us. But I think there's some questions have come up relative to, you know, some of the products in, in town, relative to surface materials and environmental concerns, that sort of thing. So those are also things we're going to have to kind of keep in mind as we, as we do the design work on this play space. And so we're, we're, you know, that'll take a little more time than maybe had been thought of before relative to that. But I think, you know, this is a space for our younger students, you know, it's an important space as far as play and, and, you know, healthy recreation space in the town. So we're hopeful that you can, can give us some support in this regard. So I think I'll stop there and let you guys ask questions. Thank you, Doug, for keeping us up to date. And if I understand correctly, you responded to one of the two questions that were posed regarding the necessity, necessity of doing it this year. So I see some hands up here from the committee. So I'm going to open the floor for the committee members to inquire. Tim, I saw your hand first. Can you go? Sure. Doug, reading it through, you use like a metric for cost per student to come up with a cost, right? I mean, I looked at the proposal and my notes said it was $1,250 per student times 400 students. I think that's what lets that when my notes say I'm not sure they're 100% accurate. I think they are. So I think the math, that's $500,000, which would be the 50 for the design, which we proved last year in the 450 for the construction. Now there are not 400 kindergarten students, right? No, there's not, but the total, you know, it is a space that's used by all of the students. And so, you know, it predominantly is the younger students, but some older students use it as well. And just given the size and space of it, also, you know, that, you know, recent projects like Kendrick Park and sort of the price escalation that we've seen there, I think this still sort of fits within that realm of price tag. But, you know, that is an estimate that we used to ballpark the number, but, you know, it will be much more refined as we go through our design process. But I think that it is a space that's used by more than just the youngest kids. It's focused more on them and size more for them, but there are kids that are older that use it as well. It's the using of the full student population. Okay. Matt. Yes, thank you, Tim. And thank you, Doug. Tim actually asked my primary question already. My secondary question is, can you remember the last, the date and the budget for the last playground reservation? I think it was probably something like 2012 and 250,000. If I, my memory is okay. So are you meaning they're a Crocker farm in particular or? Crocker farm in particular, yes. Yeah, I don't know for sure. And that would have been probably in the space that's more for the older kids. I don't know that we've done anything in that area. Yes. I think what happened is that they, they mainly rented the space for the older kids because my children went to Crocker farms, I remember. They mainly do the space for the older children. And then they took some of the older playground equipment and installed it in the kindergarten, kindergarten playground. So the stuff in the kindergarten playground is what they recovered from the last renovation. Right. And I would also say that there's some of that equipment that, well, if I'd gone to school and Amherst might have been there when I went to school, because there's a couple of pieces of equipment that are really of a sort of more archaic timeframe. Okay. So you don't, you don't remember specifically more, any better than I. Okay. Thank you. Katie. Thanks Doug. I appreciate this and your work on it. I just, it, you're using terms and I think in the proposal, it used terms about renovation and refurbishment, but I think what you're saying is. New. Brand new. I mean, are any of those. I just, it seemed like what you had been saying in the proposal is that things need to be fixed or refurbished. And I didn't know if that's really what was happening in that cost was based on refurbishment or if it was really on brand new purchasing of and installing. I would say it's a little bit of both. In other words, the equipment would most likely be most of it would probably need to be replaced. That being said, you know, the grounds, the, the, the. The area in which those piece of equipment set their structure, their shape, their, their interaction with the, the sidewalk space that's in the back and the, and the. The walkways and pathways that are there, you know, those would be, you know, renovations of existing or modifications of those. So it's, it's, you know, if there is equipment that can be reused, we absolutely would, but there's a good chance that most equipment would be changed out and, and. And so it's really renovating the physical space, the layout and the, and the surface of the, of the playground to, it would need to be. Well, the reason I, sorry, go ahead. Sorry. I was just going to say that's, that's really the, the renovations more about the, the physical location of it, the, the topography of it, the, the surfaces that we have. And then the equipment would be more, more new than not. Okay. Okay. Cause I, I was just wondering if when I heard refurbishment, I was thinking, well, maybe it would be less costly than your estimate because you're estimating it based on a new playground, that 1250 cost. And I had the same question that Tim had, I was thinking, oh, well it's for, it's for, you know, three, four or five classes versus the entire school. So I thought, you know, since it's smaller, you know, in scale, it might be less costly than the national estimate. Or then the 400. So I just didn't know if that would, but you'll know more as you get the design completed. Got it. Thank you. Uh, Dave. So Mac. Thanks, Sam. I was just going to add two things. One is just to remind everybody that the playgrounds at Crocker after school and when school is not in session during the summer, those playgrounds are available to the entire community. So these are really community resources. They're at Crocker farm, but they are used. I, I live five minutes from Crocker farm. My kids went there. They're used all year long by lots of kids, uh, after school and on weekends. Um, I wanted to just address Matt's question. If I heard it correctly earlier, I think you were asking about what's the most recent playground project at Crocker. If I heard that, I came in a little late. I think the most recent and Doug or Sean could correct me, but I worked very closely on the preschool renovation to the, the outdoor preschool space. Which I believe was in the 200. Plus thousand range. And that was a complete renovation of a non ADA space for the preschool. And I think that was the most recent CPA dollars. We've spent at Crocker farm, a wonderful project spearheaded by the preschool teachers. I don't remember all the names, but really resulted in an amazing transformation of that space. That space, by the way, is also available to parents with young children after school and on weekends, et cetera. And we made very clear that, that, that need, uh, that was a requirement of the project. Um, so I hope. If I, if I address that, um, um, for Matt. Thank you for, uh, sharing that with us, Dave. Um, I guess I have a question, Doug, which is, have you, do you have anyone in mind that has been considered for the design? Uh, work. Is there. We did not at the, at the moment, uh, you know, we, we'd have to be, you know, as, as procurement rules, you know, for these kinds of things, uh, exist, we'll, we'll have to go out and get quotes from folks relative to that. And we'll have to articulate that in a, in a formal way to, you know, sort of scope the, the work and then have them, uh, and then have them bid on it. I mean, there are obviously some, some folks that, that have worked recently in town relative to like Hendrick Park and some of those that. You know, might be familiar with us and familiar with, you know, how the town works and, and the, uh, uh, maybe leading candidates in that regard. And certainly if you have names you want to share, I'm happy to hear them. Um, but we don't, we don't have anybody in mind at the moment and, and we'll, we'll keep the process, you know, sort of blind and, and, you know, meet their pure state procurement requirements as necessary. Okay. Great. And I just to follow up quick and depending on the timeframe of when this project comes to fruition. Um, what, what is being done with the. Equipment that's damaged in the current timeframe that is to say, is there some method of repair or. Maintenance affiliated with them to get from point A to point B. Or has that been considered. Yeah, I think that, you know, what we've done and what we continue to do with that location is, is keep the equipment as safe as possible. I mean, obviously swings are swings and, and so, you know, seats are, are kept in good order and the, and the chains and that sort of thing in the, and they're, and they're sturdy as far as location. Um, any of the other equipment that, that might be having a failures of, of, of parts of it or something like that. Uh, we're going to make safer or repair as best we can. We use our operating budgets to try to manage those, those kinds of circumstances they come up. Um, you know, and, and of course we replace, uh, wood chips and, and you know, so, you know, supporting, uh, groundwork to, to keep the, uh, you know, the, the landing places for those, those, uh, those pieces of equipment as safe as we can as well. So we've got ongoing work that we always do and, and try to, uh, stand top out to prevent any, any serious injuries and, and, uh, any limitations on the equipment. Okay. Thank you. Uh, Tim. Yeah. Just a quick, does anybody know what the, for comparison purposes, what the cost of the Kendrick park playground was? I sort of do. I don't know if Dave might be a better resource. I'm just curious now. I'm sure if it's okay, Sam. Certainly. And again, Sonya can help me. We were just looking at this for another reason today or yesterday. I think it's about six 50 in total. We got a $400,000 grant, a park grant through the state. And then CPA added in 235 to 40 ish. I don't, I don't have that right off the top of my head, but it was around six 50 for the total cost of the Kendrick park, uh, playground. And that included some sidewalks and, and other connecting walkways out to the various streets there. I think that's ballpark. I know CPA was two 59. Yeah, two 59 plus four. That's, that's the math right there. Cause we got to, we got the full park grant 400,000. Great project. Are there any other questions from community members or those in attendance? I'm not seeing any Doug. So thank you for taking the time to submit the proposal and to also come here and answer questions for us. If we have further questions, we'll certainly. Reach out to you. Thank you so much. Fantastic. Thank you guys for the time tonight. Good luck with your deliberations. Thank you. So just FYI everyone that Dave Williams did communicate with me that he's unable to attend this meeting. Now he's out of town. The housing member of the committee, just FYI. So our next proposal. Is from on the agenda is from the conservation area improvements. And Dave, you could email the earlier indicating that Aaron. Jack would be. Presenting for the. Proposals and I do see Aaron is in the room. And I see you nodding your head here and I assume that means you can hear us. Yes. So, and we can hear you now. So if you're ready, we'd be glad to. Hear your comments regarding the proposal. If I could, I just wanted to introduce everyone to Aaron. Aaron is a relatively new. Member of the conservation staff as our wetlands administrator. She's been with us a couple. Two years now or so, but our first presentation to see back. But Aaron grew up in Amherst. And, and knows the town well and has been a terrific addition to our conservation and development team. So I asked her if she would make this presentation and she jumped on it and I'll let her take it away. So thank you, Aaron for doing this and being here. Sure. My pleasure. Is it okay if I share my screen? Certainly. Can everybody see. Yes. Excellent. All right. So I'm here tonight. Presenting a proposal for us to request $100,000 for passive recreational improvements on conservation land. And the reason we're making these requests as recreational improvements is because that request allows us to use these funds on any property, any conservation property in town, as opposed to requesting them under conservation, which would restrict us to only using those funds on lands which were purchased with CPA funds. I'm not going to read every word on these slides. I'm going to go through this pretty quickly because there's a lot of slides to run through and I apologize. I have a puppy whining in the background. If you hear strange noise. The trail systems in Amherst are well used and very well loved as you probably all know. And as a result of that, we're in need of financial support to take care of them. When I say trails, we're talking more than just trails. We're talking bridges, bog bridges, parking, signage and beaches in town. We manage over 2000 acres of open space and over 80 miles of trails in the town. And there is a constant need for maintenance and improvements on these lands, which include improvements for accessibility, safety and correcting historic issues that might exist on the properties. So what I'm going to run through is, you know, so basically our goals are to improve the lands for passive recreational use, encourage greater use through responsible ecosystem planning, make the trail system safer, correct historic problems and add structures where appropriate. And I've highlighted future projects and provided some examples of some historic projects. Projects that we complete frequently require wetland delineation, plan design, permitting and costs for labor and materials. We only have two staff to take care of all of our lands. So sometimes we do have to contract out certain projects to make sure that things can get done in a timely manner and or if equipment or certain skills are required that go beyond what we can do internally. So these are a couple of examples of projects that we have sort of on our queue that we need to get done. The National Guard Bridge, which is on the Harvey Allen trail is in trouble and having some safety issues that need repair. Puffers pond. We have the Kevin flood bridge, which needs painting and repair. We have a lot of issues at Puffers pond with trail systems that need correction and issues with beach erosion that need to be corrected. Mount Pollux. We have issues with parking safety there. We also don't have a kiosk at Mont Pollux, which we would like to, to add Houston gauge issues with issues with historic bog bridging that needs repair. We also don't have a lot of, we don't have a lot of, we don't have a lot of new gates or is another big issue that we see all over in town. Boardwalk repairs. This is a good example at large hill. And then adding boardwalks. This is an example from sweet Alice conservation area where trails go through wetlands and are causing significant damage. So we want to try to correct some of those issues. ADA accessible trails. We want to try to correct some of those issues in town, which do need ongoing maintenance on a regular basis. And that's really important for us, not only on existing trails to maintain existing access, but also to try to sort of take existing trails and make them accessible for people. These are a couple examples of existing sort of ADA accessible trail locations in town. A few examples of recently completed projects to show you what we are giving to us. This is recently completed parking area. Previously, the parking at Bay Road was shoulder parking. Now we have a beautiful new parking area. New staircase, which was created for access, greater access at sweet Alice. This was a stream restoration project. New signage. Here's a safety improvement on an existing bridge at the KC trail off Southeast Street. We also try to partner whenever we can with organizations to get grant funds. This is an example of several slides of funds made possible by DCR trail grants, $30,000 grant. And then a recent project completed, Groff Park, Emily Dickinson trail, signage improvements. We did some improvements to the trail system. And also corrected a interpretive trail. So that was five minutes. And I'm happy to answer any questions that you folks may have. Thank you so much, Aaron. It's very nice to have the visuals. And would you be able to share that presentation with the committee? Yeah, absolutely. I have it in PDF format. And I'm happy to share it with you. I'm happy to share it with you. Thank you so much for your PowerPoint. Either method is fine. Okay. Photographs are great to see. Committee members questions. I see. Matt, your hand is up. Yeah, thanks, Aaron. And Dave. My question is sort of about the funding for these. In a previous conversation with Dave, I heard that the budget for materials, which obviously doesn't go very far. So I guess you're reliant on grants basically for any, any of these trial improvements. So I know you've got this proposal with CPA. You've had some recent grants from, I think the state. What do you think the prospects are in terms of how much you can expect other than CPA on an annual basis going forward? If you could, if you could just guess for estimate. So as Aaron, as Aaron spoke to, you know, we try to be as creative as we can when we go out there and, and look for funds. You know, Aaron mentioned the Robert Frost trail grant we got from the state $30,000 a few years ago. The Kestrel trust has been very generous. Basically, you know, partnering with us. They've been our partner for about 50 years, but in recent years, you know, you know, being very generous with, you know, donations for trailhead parking. They've given us money for a new bridge at Amethyst Brook. You may, if any of you use Amethyst Brook, you know that there is one, there's three. Historically, there's been three bridges there across the Amethyst Brook. There's only two now. One got washed away or sheered away by ice. We're planning to rebuild that, but that's, you know, it's a big chunk of change, probably 30 to $40,000. Kestrel has donated to that effort. So we're, we're, we're as creative as we possibly can. We are currently using working our way through previous CPA allocations. I don't off the top of my head know where those, where those are, but that money goes quickly, particularly in this climate with escalating materials costs. And then, so we, we utilize CPA dollars and then met to your question. We also have gotten some modest allocations through the capital budget for specific projects like large bridge repair or replacement. You know, some of these bridges give, give you an idea. You know, we just did a bridge that Aaron showed a, showed a slide of which was with all of the wetland work, all of the stream bank work was $22,000. Another bridge that she showed you was $6,500. And that was just labor. As she mentioned, where we can, we try to use our own staff to do as much of the work as we possibly can. But some of these larger bridges, we need engineers to help us. The town engineer has been great, but we need to call in experts to help us with some of the, the larger projects. I don't know, again, Matt, your numbers were, that you referenced that, that I mentioned were right. Our, our grounds maintenance budget is around $6,500 a year. And that's for kind of the everyday stuff. So these larger projects, Bob bridging, pressure trees, lumber, hardware, things like that. Come from CPA grants, Kestrel trust, capital and, and being as creative as we can, we do get donations for trails as well, but not a lot. Thank you. Thank you, Dave. Andy. Thanks, Sam. Thanks for the presentation, Aaron and Dave, the, I would agree the, the, the deck was great. Just getting the visuals of this. I think probably where we've tried to go out to visit sites, where possible. And this was like an impossible task, right? Cause it's, it's everywhere. So I'm just wondering given, you know, you've called out bridges, parking, ADA. Is there one area in particular you want to lean into and maybe like this is to answer a question of if I were to, to be able to visit some of these, like, should I be looking at a couple of first, like to have some that are really your highest priority. That you would like us to get kind of our eyes on to help understand what this is. And then I will just add on to that. I know we've already asked you the question of whether this can be piecemeal. That's something I'd also love to hear. And it can be in the written comment if you don't know now. So. So let me, let me start and then, and, and let Aaron jump in. I did respond to Sam's two questions of every applicant. I believe he asked that of every applicant. On your behalf, you know, so yeah, this is, can we, can we do with less this year? And I forgot the second part of the question. But, but basically, you know, what is our plan over time? This is, we're in this for the long haul, right? We own these properties. They're permanently protected in perpetuity. 80 miles of trails is what we have. I have been very clear. We have not expanded the trail system. I've been with the town over 15 years. I am not anxious to expand the trail system. Any more than it really is. Frankly, we need to take care of what we have. The only exception, real exception to that is the purchase of Hickory Ridge, which I truly believe was kind of a once in a lifetime. Opportunity for the town and for this generation. So yes, there is some trail expansion at Hickory Ridge. And we're already being creative there. We just went out, as you know, and got a $280,000 grant. Or trail work there. We actually did tap into CDBG money as well and state funds. But other than that, I think what we've got to do is focus on taking care of what we have in terms of locations. Erin may have some ideas for you, Andrew. Certainly the section through Lawrence swamp. It's, you know, winter is a good time to go through Lawrence swamp. If there's not too much snow on the ground, but there are extensive areas of old bog bridging there. Bridges that have rotted away. I just want to emphasize that by and large, some of the, so the focus should be on large bridges, bog bridging and correcting as Erin said, correcting kind of ecological damage that culverts and old bridging and trails. You know, years ago when we put in trails long before any of us worked for the town or volunteered for the town, trails were just put in anywhere. And often they damaged the resource areas. We're trying to correct that. So we're going to be after this for the next 10 years, but I think we've made a lot of progress, even in the last three or four years to, to address some of the backlog of projects. The other thing I would say is many of these bridges, if we do them, they're good. We're trying to build them for 30 to 40 years. I mean, there's two bridges that amethyst brook that are made of telephone poles. Those things have been there. I don't even know how long they predate me. They go back to Pete Westover. They've probably been there for 25 to 40 years and they're still standing and still functioning. So what we want to build is things that last a long, long time. And that means building them well, spending a little more money. It is pressure treated lumber, but they've got new, a new pressure treated lumber that is less impactful and less leaching. So long answer. Sorry. Aaron, your thoughts on specific areas. Yeah, I was going to suggest Larch Hill. That's a really great place to walk because you can see the extent of bog, bog, bog, bog, bog. And how there is a lot of boar walking and how much board walking there is. And the condition that it's in. Another good one to look at is the heart. The National Guard Bridge on the Harvey Allen Trail, just to get a sense of sort of the scope of how big it is and how large it is. We're talking in some cases, you know, 30 and 40 foot spans here, which are pretty significant. And then the other one I was going to suggest visiting as The other bridges are also very old and going to be coming up on needing replacement in the next couple of years. Yeah. Aaron, could you do the committee a favor and just reference the location approximately where those three areas are unfamiliar. Yes. Yeah. So large Hill is on South Pleasant Street. It's just nor or just it's actually right next to the common school and just north of Bramble Hill Farm. If you know that general area and then the Harvey Allen trail is off of Southeast Street sort of coming from the bike path side. If you come in from Southeast Street and walk south on the bike path the trail cuts in in a easterly direction shortly after you enter the bike path. If you just stay on that trail and sort of go left, you'll come right out on it. And then Amethyst Brook is on. Is it Pellum Road? I think Pellum Road. Yeah, going towards Pellum on, yeah, right, right near Fort River School. One thing if I could just add to two, right. One thing if I could just add is I think two thoughts. One would be that we need to do a much better job on accessible trails. We have a few Aaron showed a few pictures of them. They need work large Hill is a great example. That boardwalk was built by the a engineering fraternity at the university. I was the executive director of the Hitchcock Center for the environment which would have been in about 1987 or 88 89 somewhere in there, maybe 91 sorry early 90s. Anyway, a wonderful resource but it's, it hasn't really received much attention since then. I need to do a better job. I will just call your attention over in Hadley on Moody Bridge Road is the Conti refuge the accessible trail over the Conti refuge I don't know how many of you have been there. It's an amazing resource. I can't tell you how many people have said, boy, that's where I go when I want to explore the out of doors and it kind of gets me like well, I wish people were saying that more about our trails and I think people love our trails. But some of them need TLC the bridges and the boardwalks and the ADA trails need, need that TLC I want, I want to have the best, I want us to have the best trails in Massachusetts, we're not there yet. But if any municipality, I would hope that, you know, that would be my goal working with staff and you and funding sources to say, we have the best trail system in Massachusetts the most accessible. The most environmentally conscious with regard to resource areas. And we welcome people of all abilities and ages and, and whatnot to enjoy them so that's our goal. Thank you Dave, we're getting close towards the next presenter Tim I see you have a question. And maybe in a follow up written response would be fine. My judgment. Frankly, I don't really have any issue at all with the need here I have an issue with the cost. And as you know there are lots of competing needs and I'm just trying to understand the reason for the hundred I mean if we say 50 rather than 100 you could do something but maybe not as much as 100. And the other thing is like, what's the, you probably don't know but what's the universe is it like a million dollars when you're just to do all the trails reasonably well and you're asking for 100 or where does that hundred fit in terms of the long term because I'm assuming you don't get approved for the entire amount this year even if you do you might be back next year maybe the year after to do some more trails more trails that kind of thing and I'm just trying to get a sense as to the universe here of the cost to do this trail maintenance and so on. I think when real quickly I responded to Sam's inquiry about, could we do with less absolutely sure I'll be perfectly honest we can, we can, we can do as much as we can do with what the committee and the council ultimately recommends. I think we will be back. My goal would be to be back, almost every year asking for money to enhance and fix problems on the trails, whether they be bridges parking areas make things more accessible big trails more accessible. We don't have a figure Tim, but it is certainly you know hundreds of thousands of dollars to repair, expand access all of those things I mean it's one thing to work on repairing enhancing an accessible trail. It's a different figure if you're going to build a new one. Right. So, again, we're not expanding the trail system with the exception of hickory Ridge. We're not adding new trails really anywhere in town, and we haven't bought land in a few years either we're trying to fix what we have. And I think, annually, this is part of taking care of the resources that the town has in a more responsible and sustainable way and see back is just one of the sources we go to for those funds. And there was one question that was uncertain which was the current balance of CPA funds that remains from prior cycle awards, and I know that you and indicated there were some, some work that had yet to get invoice do you believe that you or Sonya or someone could get back to the committee with the current status of CPS CPA funds at some point. Yeah, for the next meeting I'll have a report with the remaining balances. Aaron, I saw your hand go up and come down. Are you good or do you have a quick comment. I just wanted to say for just to give some reference to the to the 100,000 just one of those small trail bridges which was pulling out to failed culverts on a trail system and restoring the stream bank and putting in a bridge was $22,000 just for that work and that can include the delineation, the survey the permitting work that went into that so you're probably looking at $30,000 just for that one crossing so gives you a sense, you know, in scope or scale that that's like for small foot bridges if you're talking about a restoration. Thank you. I certainly appreciate and utilize many of the trails in town and I hope as many members of the community are as able, we'll have access to them. Thank you both. And thank you, Aaron for your presentation. Perhaps we'll see you in subsequent cycles as well. Thank you, Dave. So we're our next presentation is again from the town of Amherst and it's the war memorial bathhouse, preliminary design, followed thereafter by war memorial pool improvements. And we have listed. Amy Rezek, Rezeki. I saw her previously. I'm here. You're here you switch from the attendees into the panelists. There you are great. We can hear you. It sounds like you can hear us. Thank you for waiting and we'd be glad to hear you talk about your first proposal the bathhouse preliminary design. Great. And I'll just introduce myself quickly because Amy Rezeki. Great job with the pronunciation there Sam. Welcome for the town for 12 years but believe it or not this is my first time come into CPAC normally either Guilford mooring or Alan Snow I think has presented the public work project so thanks for having me. The first one I'm going to talk about is the war memorial bathhouse. And you guys probably know and have probably been there but this is a bathhouse that was constructed in 1953. So it's nearly 70 years old. It's just kind of outlived its useful life we've done everything we can to try and limp it along we continue to try and limp it along. But it's, it's, it's in need for many reasons that you know you've seen in all the proposals it's in need of either a major upgrade or more likely a replacement. And, you know, what what I guess is kind of complicating this a little bit is knowing that there is a big master plan for that entire area of utilizing that space better, potentially having, you know, another another splash pad, having other outdoor spaces and that sort of thing and so simply just replacing the bathhouse in kind without taking a pause to look at the broader conversation of what do we want this area to be, and what do we want this bathhouse to potentially serve. That's, that has to get looked at a little bit so that we can figure out the right size, whether this bathhouse is only going to serve pool users, or whether we want it to serve as a bathroom facility for people that are using the park year round people playing games in nearby community field. Things like that so so it's not only figuring out the ideal placement but also the usages and whether this is a seasonal facility a year round facility. And that sort of thing so I think I mean, I'm happy to take questions I feel like I answered a lot of questions in writing and so hopefully you guys have a lot of information already. Thank you. Amy good to see you. Certainly welcome to be here and thank you for your work on behalf of the town and the community. I'd like to open it up for committee members, if there are any questions or comments. I see Katie sand. Can you unmute Katie. Got it. Thank you Amy appreciate it. I just had a question about timing which I apologize if you did answer in the questions I didn't catch it but the funding that you're asking for wouldn't be available to the summer which would, you know, sound the summer of 2023 which would allow you to do the design and preliminary design you're also asking for. So, are we just taking one at a time. Sorry. Yeah. Can I ask for both. You might as well continue with your question. Well, only because it just seems. I just want to understand timing of sort of like when renovations would happen. I mean, it sounds like you need some things fixed which wouldn't get fixed for summer 2023 because the funding wouldn't be available till July, or I think that would be correct. Maybe. So, that would be funding for fixes in terms of the drainage and things like that. Later. Yeah. For the pool. So, which is separate project number two. Yeah, we understand that we would be pushing pretty hard to pull everything together, put that out to bid, and be able to get the work done before the pool season so in terms of the pool repairs. So putting this in now means we can pull everything together. So, you'd have the promise. Once it shut down in August next year, we would have several months of being able to do the repairs at that point, you know, the working on pools is kind of hard because you have to straddle them being able to be used in the summer and so you have to just use a little bit of time in the spring and a little bit in the fall. And that falls a little more predictable because we know when the closed date is, and they can go in the spring, you just have to keep waiting until the weather window opens. So I just wanted to understand that if there's any sort of interaction because you were just describing which I really appreciated the fact that you don't want to necessarily. You have to think about the entire area and the concept of what how this will be used and what other you know how it might need to be changed or adjusted in terms of scope and scale and in the design process. So I just didn't know if it would have impact on the drainage area, for example, or anything like that and if those two things interacted these two projects in any way. You don't necessarily interact in turn in the I think in the way that you're suggesting the bathhouse project. This is a longer term we first have to figure out what we need and that's what we're coming to you with is saying, we need to figure out what we need. If we know that then then it can go out to bid and you know to be clear as you've seen in the, in the responses, you know once we know what we want, then we can go after park grants and other sources of funding for the actual construction. So our plan is not to be here next year, then asking for the next phase of that project, we just need to, you know, we need help with the funding to gather that initial information so that we can go after those other sources. There isn't an impact on these two projects. And it's a multiple that one's a multiple year project this is just kind of the first phase to get the ball rolling. Right, got it. Thank you. Thank you, Amy, Matt, actually you have your hand up. I hope you won't take this question the wrong way because it might come across as a little bit of a nuclear bomb, but so we're looking at like 350,000 now we're talking about investing into this and then down the road and other like three and a half to five and a half million. My sort of question is like, how does the town need to outdoor pools. I that I mean I will honestly say that's that's a question that I think the community needs to evaluate. You know, I don't know that that's for me to give a yes or no. I know that both pools are used, you know, very regularly. And so, with only one pool, we might not have enough facilities to support all the people that want to swim in the summer. But again, I think that's a very real conversation that you guys need to have. Yeah, I have just one other one might we should just continue on that topic. Michelle. I just wanted to comment on that particular subject that I have two small children that I wanted to get swimming lessons to and I could not even between the two pools, fit them in because it booked up so immediately and there is no space left so I do think that two pools when you know North Amherst and one more close to South Amherst is a very well used community resource I just want to comment on that. I'd like to also reiterate what Michelle said having grown up in town and having had kids take lessons that my experience has been through the many years that they're both widely utilized. Dave Zomek. Yes, your hands on me. Um, I just want to point out, you know, Ray is here and and I was hoping Ray could speak to the issue of, you know, the, the utility of, of more memorial pool and the two pools we have. Um, I, before I hope Sam would acknowledge Ray, I just wanted to ask, Matt, I was curious, where did you come up with the 3.5 million? Where did that? Where is that from? That's an answer. That's in Amy's answer to what is the best guess estimated cost of the Enhanced War Memorial Area Project. So, the actual construction, not just the pool. What's the number from the Western and Samson Report to do that entire area, including the pool, including the bath house, including a new water feature playground and the other things designed. So, the only number we have. Yes, they took a big gulp there. Yeah, that's a, I mean, that was from about 5,000 feet a couple of. So you think there's a good chance the scope will be smaller than that? I think so, but we're not launching into, you know, a 3.5 million dollar renovation of that space yet. I think, excuse me, Amy was right, we need to really assess what needs to be done, what can be done and what the possibilities are there before we go. Let me turn it over to Ray. So Ray, I see you're here. We'd love to hear from you if you wish to speak to us. Thank you, Sam. I mean, I can speak really quickly to Matt's question. The pools are, the two pools are a really valuable resource for us. We, we, during summertime, I think it's a, it's a need for the town to have two pools operating because there's an overflow issue. We found out this year, certainly when, when we had mechanical issues at war, just how difficult it was to program lessons and lap swim and do all the service of this large revenue gained in the two pools from outside communities because every town doesn't have the luxury of one or two pools. And so we run into the issue, even with the two pools on their, at their best, we run into the issue of having Amherst residents having to wait at capacity outside while the pools are filled. The pools will be filled where we're exploring different ways to make them to increase their versatility and do different things at the pools. But having those two pools is a valuable resource as, as being able to complement that with other options, other indoor options are also, but I mean, community members will probably, I don't know, because I haven't done that specific research to answer that question right now. But the, I assume that as the parents in the room have attested I think that the, the, the, the, the queue gets filled pretty quickly for all of our activities there it's not, it's not a waste. I would go quicker to three pools and I go to one. But that's not going to happen. Thank you Ray and I hope things are going well in the rec recreation department I don't envy your logistical issues at various points in the summer and other times. Thank you Sam. I'm glad you're going. Tim. Yeah I don't want to bore others but just I am not familiar of where the second pool is I mean I'm not here in the summer. I don't have young kids I'm near a huge pool in the summer. But where's the second ball to the pools one is the community field at right on the grounds of Amherst regional. And then milk, and then mill is in North Amherst at the mill river recreational area. Thank you mill mill is the one that is more frequented by by outsiders I think it's sort of move from some of the downtown pieces. It's a bigger pool and it accommodates more as the children's waiting pool there. And so there's slightly different cultures and different features of the pools, but, but they are, they are both basically used to capacity. Thank you. I'll just, I'll just add to that that is as Ray saying like the mill pool it seems like that's where a lot of people go for community swim and that sort of thing. And that means that war memorial while it gets used for the public a lot of the users down there are the recreation department doing swim lessons and camps and stuff like that and so being able to have space for both of those. Like that's how we're able to strategically do that. Thank you, Ray and Amy. I guess I have a, there are two different proposals in front of us, regarding the rules one is for design and one is for improvements. We're sort of talking about both of them. We did hear the design being as something that's necessary as a part of the longer term potential plan with an unknown at present potential capital expense. But the, what I heard from you Amy was that the thinking is to know where the town wants to go in order to do that the design is important. Whatever that longer term plan might be. And I may have a question later on the, the thoughts of the overall capital expenses, but it sounds like that's perhaps premature because we're doing the design phase first. But you also wanted to talk about the improvements. I think it's a good time to start talking about that Robin. I see your hand is up do you want to ask a quick question now or would you like to allow me to talk. related to the improvements so go ahead Amy. Okay. Yeah, so the second project which obviously we're talking the same location although they're they're very separate this one is a an actionable replete repairs will be made. So that's the warm Memorial pool. Again if we're going to invest in this area and continue to keep it operational it needs some improvements as well. And there's kind of three things at the pool that need to happen. One is that the ADA lift that's there right now, or that that isn't there right now we need an ADA lift to get to make the facility, ADA accessible. And item two is we have to do some repairs to the drainage. And partly, we are right now kind of grandfathered into the, you know, Virginia great Virginia Graham Baker. I might have that wrong regulations in terms of safety for for the drainage structure. So we do technically meet the regulations, but not really the modern standard of the regulations. The drainage structure on this pool is also vintage 1953. So it's also 70 years old and so the steel drainage is eroding to the point where there's a pretty massive leak underneath the pool that's just anytime the pool is full we've got a lot of water that we're losing out of this the drainage structure. Because of that, a massive amount of repair they're going to have to cut out portions of the pool structure in order to repair things below it. So ultimately, you know we need the pool to be reliant. And so the fact that we're kind of at that 10 year this should be reliant. We're trying to kind of line it up so that all of these things. It gets repaired in the time when it should be reliant. And then also the ADA accessible chair. So those are kind of the three components that are all coming together in this one project. Robin. Excuse me, would you like to speak further Amy. No, that's great. I didn't know if Ray had anything to add, but I'm sorry. No, he's shaking his head. Okay, Robin. Go ahead. Okay, so my question and I asked this question and the written questions and I'm going to revisit it again. So just wanted to get some clarification. And it's basically around one of the provisions of CPA funding which doesn't allow for funding of maintenance. So in my question. I asked, because the liner, which is I think $75,000 with the project funds needs to be replaced I think every 10 years. And it's coming up to that 10 year mark. My sense with that that would be interpreted as a maintenance item I understand that that you've lined up the liner with with the repair. So if you had like a two year old liner and you had a repair that had to happen and you had to sacrifice that liner, I could see that as an out of cycle issue and not necessarily maintenance but if it's reaching that 10 year mark. I'm not clear why there aren't those $75,000 and tons of the regular budget that the time of the anticipating at this point in time anyway to spend on that project and particularly in this in this grant year where we have so many asks to be able to access those funds, which would be the normal part of the whole process anyway and it is on that normal 10 year time schedule. So that my question is that my question also for the town officials is, would that be a violation of CPA rules, because we would essentially be funding something that's going to make this item that might be driven by. It's at the 10 year mark, it's lined up with a repair it's not really driven by the repair if you're already at that 10 year period when it needs to be replaced. So who was your question directed to. I guess I mean I guess it's, I mean it's a, I mean it's a town right it's about it's on both sides of it it's the recreation departments. Would anyone care to comment or respond to my question. Does anyone. I can say that I look into it further but there's a, there's a lot of, I think it's interpretation on some of these things so it depends on how the door or the coalition interpreted interprets that so I'll double check on all that. Dave, I saw your hand come up and at the time of Robin's question with your hand up in relation to her question. I'm going to, sorry, Kim, I see you there but I'm going to call on Dave. No, it's, I think it's a great question and I think Sonya is right, which is there is some room for interpretation here. I think historically Amherst we've had the CPA I believe since 2003 Sonya and I have been around the table, pretty much that time. And we have taken a pretty conservative I would say interpretation of the CPA legislation. I think we have funded other similar, similar improvements to the pools both at War Memorial as well and I think this would qualify for CPA. I think Robin the, you know, the deeper question that you have is, you know, shouldn't this be covered by the capital plan, you know, for the town. I think there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of items that have come before the CPA that we have funded in the past that we could ask that question and I think in recent years, there's been more interplay between the CPA funded projects and our capital plan. But this is a conundrum for towns is, you know, we can't fund everything under, under capital so we look to other sources and CPA is one of those sources. And I would say that in my mind, if, if Amy of DPW and the town if you will, you know DPW is the town we are all the town we're all part of this, this team working on these projects to maintain and enhance our recreational resources. I'm coming to you and saying, we want money to paint the bathhouse. If we want money to paint, you know, the lines on the pool. That to me is, is more annual maintenance but these big ticket cyclic issues like, you know, yes, this does need something every 10 years we, we are some years ago we did the filter system we enhanced the filter system up at Mill River using CPA dollars. Now that is probably a 30 year, a 30 year cycle to to enhance and replace some of the filters, you might say well that should be capital but it's, it's not something you do on an annual basis so that's a long way to say there's some interpretation here. We, we do, we don't take this stuff lightly we try to come to you with, with items that we think other communities have funded through CPA and the CPA coalition would we find consistency among communities so I can add, it really falls under preserve or rehabilitate, in my mind, or a liner, because it's preserving that recreational area or rehabilitate rehabilitate rehabilitate. If you look at the CPA chart we really we go through every one of these town projects and we we try to make sure we're fitting them within the chart. Sure, sure, I think I just think, you know, looking at it more from like, and I know that this isn't the same but like, you know, from a household budget perspective like, if I anticipate that I'm going to need to replace my roof every 10 years. By your nine I should have 90% for what I'm going to need for my new roof. That's where I'm sort of wondering why there isn't and I know that town budgets were differently than home budgets and but that that was my sense of sort of you know, was there anything there that could be put towards it, especially in such a challenging year but thank you for. Thank you for answering the question. Thank you for your question Robin and Dave and Sonia might my comment to your question Robert would be that it seems similar to me that an issue that came up different in scope. Last year with a housing project where there was reparations and also painting. And so my comment based on that is different members might interpret it differently. You know, I dug into the interpretation guidelines I think that 56 are there about relating to painting. It's a worthwhile inquiry. But, you know, we're here as a committee to talk about all the different projects and Tim, thank you for waiting I see. No problem at all and in the interest of the other applicants and in the queue here. I would be perfectly happy to have these applicants respond to us and writing to this question the question is between the two projects with limited funds which would you put as the higher priority doing the so called repair maintenance of the pool or the design of the area in that regard so we're going to have to make that decision I'd be interested to see what you feel. And within the design my notes again show that with the design for the war Memorial area, and then also a design for the bathhouse. Those two are distinct and different. Does one have priority the other and that's what I'm interested in understanding from your perspective if you only had limited dollars where would you place your priorities. Would anyone wish to respond to that at this point at this point we I don't want to steal your thunder maybe we could talk about that as a staff and get back to you in writing if that would be okay because we want to be respectful to other applicants who still need to present tonight. That would be fine with me and also with Sam and the others. That would be fine from our perspective. The only suggestion would be to try to get back relatively quickly because committee members have to consider all the different proposals and seek to come up with initial strong polling ratings for a conversation. In advance of a meeting next Thursday. Thanks for the question Tim, it's something I might have asked as well. Matt. I just have a very short question. So in your response to the questions you said that the war Memorial pool receives roughly 152 200 visitors each day. How long. What is the season that the pool is open. Is it just the months of July and August. Okay, it opens. I think it's like the second or third week in June so right about when schools are closing and then it stays open through right yeah Ray I'll know this off the top of his head but it's I think they stayed open through the last week in August typically. Maybe through Labor Day. That is accurate yes. Yeah, so about about 10 or 11 weeks. So the mill. I'm sorry, war Memorial closed a little bit earlier than mill, because when we get towards the end we lose staff we we consolidate moved one pool and mill is bigger but but that those states are appropriate. Thanks, and I have one other question not Amy which is on the design there was a budget request of 200,000. I'm wondering how firm that number is, or is it a best guess. Do you know, do you see any uncertainty in that figure. I, it's, it's a best guess with talking to engineers that do this work on the scope to find, you know that we're in the right ballpark. So would that be in line with what Tim was asking for the grander vision, or for the smaller project. Are you asking if that 200,000. The back house and the area design. Right. Yeah, so it's it's for the preliminary design of both of those and so I think in the budget, we actually submitted if you did just the back house you know we think it's, I want to say it's 117 125 and then the other 175 for just kind of looking at the whole area. Great thank you I thought I'd inquire for those who are listening. Any other questions from MIDI members or the presenters. Would anyone Amy Ray Dave like to speak further on the project at this time. Okay. Thank you very much, all of you, and will afford to your response to the question that Tim had asked, or, you know your version of a response that would address that. I have one more proposal presentation on our agenda for today. And like to thank the members for taking the waiting. It's the Fort River communication, excuse me community recreation fields project, which was submitted by a number of town residents I believe the lead. These were Maria, Kapiki, Rudy Perkins and Tony. Cunningham. I see a few folks in the audience and it looks like. Maria's in the room already has been added to the room. I'm here. Do I need to bring in Rudy. Could you please bring in Rudy, Rudy, Tony is out of town so we'll not be able to join us tonight. Welcome Maria. Good to see you. We can thank you and it seems that you can hear us. Thank you for your proposal. And for taking the time to come here to talk to us. This is the last proposal of the evening. We'd be glad to hear you make your comments and or present. Thank you so much and thanks for the opportunity. It may I share my screen. Certainly. Okay, so let us super. Okay, so thank you very much for having us here today. Rudy and I and Tony put together this proposal and like to kind of get you oriented first so we're talking about the Fort River school site. This is showing what is there currently so here's the school and right now the fields that are used for recreation kind of loop from along the entire eastern edge and the southern edge. And just to give you an idea of what we are talking about the new the school building project that's in progress is going to have a new school that pretty much is going to land in the southern half of this site, and it seems that all of these fields that are down here will not be there anymore, and this is the approximate location and size of where recreational fields athletic fields will be to be out of the way of the school. So, why would you want to support improvement of athletic fields at Fort River. If you guys have been there, I play on these fields Rudy's kid plays on these fields. It is used by heavily used by several organizations softball soccer. The ultimate and also by a lot of casual users. So these are very well loved and very well used fields that are in deep need of repair. So today, the school day this would be used by the school community, and they would have other events there but in terms of recreational use we're talking about after school and weekends. One that this is so important is that these facilities that are used for all of these sports, and including the comfort station and the lighting that currently exists there will be lost to some degree. When the school building project happens, the comfort station is used extensively for the kids that are coming after school and are going to be going into playing sports, the lighting is used currently for softball and for football. And when the construction happens, those will go away. This also aligns using the improving these fields with the open space and recreation plan that was updated in 2017. And there's actually in as part of that plan it was noted that these fields in particular were called out as being in an environmental justice neighborhood, and in the OSRP it specifically states that we should in order to improve these fields for both passive and active recreational use, we should be looking toward among other sources CPA funds. So that's what brings us to you. The school building project is going to be partially funded by state funding the Massachusetts School Building Authority, but they cap their site costs at 8% that might be changing but it might not change in time for this project. But that's a very in terms of school projects in general, just about every project goes over that 8% cap. So there's going to be a lot of money that would need to be invested in the site, including the fields that would not be eligible for reimbursement from the MSBA. The CPA funding would decrease the amount that would be asked directly from taxpayers via the debt exclusion. So, in early May, there's the, there's going to be on the ballot a question of, will the town, will the townspeople vote to increase their expenses to pay for this project. Now, I'm anticipating and hoping that a lot of people are going to be saying, Yes, I want to do this because we want to rebuild the school. Yes, we want to do this because it's net zero and it has ground sourced heat pumps are going to be included. And it's going to have solar panels and a lot of other reasons, but there are going there are a lot of folks in town for whom this is going to be a financial challenge. And there is going to be a significant burden on that taxpayers are going to be asked to take. So, if we can decrease the amount that is asked by taxpayers by any amount that will be, I think that will help some people get to yes on the project on the vote. So that's the vote that's coming up in May. So the, the timing of this and this kind of speaks towards one of your follow up questions. The timing is critical. We would need to know before this goes out, not only for the vote but in the lead up to the vote as we're as different bodies are trying to tell taxpayers about why should you vote for this. What it will, what it will cost and if we can say to folks, well, yes, it's going to cost this much money but it is but we are we are seeking these other sources and we've secured other funds as much as possible. So for example, Inflation Reduction Act can help pay for some of the solar panels, the ever source is a there's a fund that can help pay for the geothermal. It could be a way to help pay for the recreational component. And I think that will also be important to let people know so that the people who find that these recreational fields are very important to them. This is a way for them to support it as well. A breakdown of the costs and you have this. This is in kind of overarching components. The athletic field improvement itself is about two and a half million and that's based on two different cost estimators, which they were given in cases of design and they, they estimated slightly different square footage I can go into more detail on this if you'd like. So the athletic fields about 2.5 the field lighting we use the Western and Samson estimates for field lighting for a different project to come up with an estimate here. And the comfort station, we used JCPC numbers for Kiwanis field project for about 200,000 and so the total being about 3 million. So this is in case you haven't seen it a proposed site plan from the designers, the Dinesco design. So again here is the athletic fields in the north. So what we are the comfort station as we said is going to be demolished. So these are very conceptual this is not us telling the design team what to do but we are saying that comfort station could go up in this area. The lighting could go here and then just to give you an idea. This area in the north could support for side by side ultimate fields which is currently what the programs that use that right now need is for ultimate fields. It could also support to softball fields which is one less than what exists now but to really good softball fields would be an improvement. So it can also support multi use fields I've drawn them in this way but again these are not telling anybody what to do with with the fields that that is still in design. So I'm going to stop there for now and take some questions but I can give you some more information on the breakdown of the field because I know that there. One of the questions that you gave to us was that some of the budget figures were a little daunting. So, shall I unshare right now and Yeah, if you're if you're done and if I have another slide I can show you but if that comes up with money questions we can bring that back up. If the slides that you just presented are new and I believe they. Some of them are it would be great if you could share them with the committee just send them to Sonya and like to thank you for the presentation and also for all your hard work. Over many years, on behalf of Amherst and the school project. Thank you for your involvement. I'd like to open up the floor to questions anyone on the committee who might have for Maria and others. It's quite a quite a project. Michelle. I saw in the answer to your question that that the school would be in charge of the maintenance of the bathrooms or at least in part the materials, the comfort station. And also that potentially might be tying into the electric of the lights but maybe not that there could be separation, but that the school committee approved only the athletic fields only. And I'm not sure what the lights but it doesn't sound like included the bathrooms, I guess I'm just interested in like the maintenance of the bathroom would be recreation department, maybe DPW would be tight paying the lights so there's a lot of integration with different departments and Amherst and what's their input and is this just going to be assumed as a cost by them and have they approved that. So a couple things there, the designers since since we first submitted this the designers have indicated that that laying down the conduits and so on for the plumbing and the electrical, that's something that would, they're going to need that to for the school project, but anything associated with the comfort station and lighting is really not in the school purview it's not in the school building committee purview, either they are they are tasked with designing an elementary school, and that does not include comfort station and lighting. Aside from putting the conduits in. So the school committee basically said, you know, that's not our, that's not our business really you know it's it's the, it's the fields, which they would be using the the school the Fort River school community would be using those fields. And that is part of the design. However, the one of the reasons that we wanted to include it, and we wanted to submit CPA funding is that we are very aware that there will be some value engineering that could probably will be happening as this project goes along and we're right now, just still in schematic design phase, and by securing funding for the recreational the athletic fields at this point, we feel that that will help ensure that those recreational field improvements will stay as part of the plan. In terms of maintenance it is there is a contract. And by the way, thank you again Ray for helping get answers to these questions because if there are a lot of different bodies that are involved in this, but there is a contract that that the DPW has who that are in charge of maintenance and and cleaning of the comfort station. The lights I should say are currently not metered separately, but my understanding from the school building committee is that that would be. They would want to meter the field lighting separately from the school project, particularly because this is a net zero building. Yeah, I guess I was just wondering if this is going to be like an additional burden to the budget or the staff time of the rec department or if they're already doing it, or. Yeah, like if it said the school is going to pay for like soap and bath tissue and stuff so I don't know how big of a deal it is but there's just cost being distributed across a lot of departments I was just wondering if everybody has agreed to that, if you know going forward. If there's a replacement of something that's currently happening I would assume that however they're managing the comfort station and the money is there now would be the same but obviously that's that's for the other departments to decide. Thank you, Michelle Maria. Andy. Thanks Sam thanks Maria and ready for the presentation. So I had two questions one. I may have just misheard or misunderstood. When you talk about the cap that there being a cap for site cost of 8% did you say that about 7 million would not be eligible for reimbursement or 7 million would be eligible for about 7 million would not be. So, and this might be changing we have just heard some word at the school building committee that there is, there is maybe some talk about increasing that cap but I don't know when that that's a legislature thing so I don't know when that would happen but absolutely. I think they, the designer said that they are aware of a single project that did not go over the site cost cap for the MSBA and that was in an urban setting where there was literally like no site to speak of there was just a building on a, on a plot. So, every project go goes well over the 8% site cost. Okay, so relative to the total cost so I know simple but I think it's close anyway, the school projects in the neighbor of 100 million right. That was yeah that's the current estimate that we're that we're working with there will be new estimates coming out in the next month or two. Yeah. Okay, but in terms of the cap then the like, we're saying that the, that 7 million would come off of 100 so like again for simple math. The school might only be able to get 93 million so we're trying to cover that 7 million with CK funds, that makes sense. No, no, no, sorry. Well, it's the three million the 2.5 million that we're putting for the fields is well short of that there's going to be in addition to that a whole several other million dollars of site costs that won't be reimbursed by the MSBA so this is just taking a chunk out of those out of that 7 million that we're not going to get from the state. So, there's lots more that we'll still have to be covering. Okay, alright that helps and then I can't expect you to have this answer now but you know actually maybe Sonya or Sean Mike. I'm just trying to understand the hardship because you know one of the points you made is that this will relieve the burden to the town residents. Do we have a general sense of like what that 3 million relief would look like relative to the dead override are we talking $100 a household a year or 500 I just, I'm not sure. It's going to be based on a couple of things the debt structure which that's that's going to that Sean would have to tell you and I don't know the town finance department will have to determine how they will construct how they'll figure out how to do the the debt. It'll also be based on the size of the assessed value of the home. So, I will absolutely I would look to Sean to give an idea about what that would mean to you know what every million dollars of debt exclusion would mean to an individual household. And this is one I know putting guys on the spot happy to get this after if you can even provide it after but it would help me understand a little bit better again as we compare this to other projects. You know is that is that really a meaningful number that that town folks can get excited about or is it a drop in the bucket relative to the size of what we're doing. I think it'll probably matter a lot. It'll be very individual for some families. It's not going to be a motivating factor but I think that for families who are more struggling or more limited financially, any little bit I think would be appreciated and might move people to say, you know what, the town is trying its level best to limit what they're asking of me in increased taxes and hopefully that we know that can move some people to yes, for that reason. Okay, I mean but fair to say it's like 3% of whatever the over I mean we could maybe agree to that that it's, it would be 3% less. So the total project cost now is it is about 100 million, but the Massachusetts state school building authority is going to give a significant chunk of change. So, let's say just please do these are not real numbers, let's say they they fund 40% right, and the project stays at 100 million. So now that's 60 million dollars that you have to fund. And then, like I said there's these other. There's other ways to decrease that 60 million as well but this would be very good bringing. Yeah, as much as possible. That helps thanks Maria. Sam, can I just follow up on that question real quick. Yes, sure. And the I'll send out dead exclusion tool and some information where we're not, we're way being very deliberate and how we share the impact of the project we want to do it once and be very clear. And we're waiting for the new cost estimates to come out. So we don't want to, we don't want to put out information and bits and pieces. But that should be happening in the next month or two is as Maria mentioned when we get those new cost estimates but there is a tool I can share with everybody that's on the state website where you can plug in your home value you know the exclusion you can see sort of what that impact looks like so you can play around with different amounts just to start getting a sense of it. Good thanks. Thank you Sean, Tim. Yeah, and I'm not sure this is actually for Maria or the town or Ray or, but my general concern issue in this project is why are a group of private citizens requesting these funds. It goes to the school committee, the school building committee, the town town recreation department or some coordination, I just don't understand that. I don't know how those other town entities feel about this project. I don't know how it fits into the overall opinions as to the strength weaknesses of the school building program. I really, really feel we need a lot more information on that. And it's way in my opinion, way too premature to consider this right now, without that input. And, as I said, I don't want to, for tonight's meeting that is probably not appropriate but as we move forward in our discussions. I think that's critical in my judgment that just seems inappropriate to have a group of private citizens, making this proposal to us. And we need to know a lot more how the town feels and why this the request structure doesn't include town officials. Anyway, that's, that's, well, I can, I can tell you that the school committee did endorse this application. They didn't want to talk about the comfort station and the lighting but they endorsed the field part which is their purview. That's, that's what they, they would be involved with. We presented to the Amherst recreation department we pre we presented we was discussed at the, we actually we did we presented to the school building committee. They did not have it on their agenda to take a vote prior to this meeting. They couldn't vote but they have spoken favorably about it but they, you know, they will hopefully take an official vote to endorse it. The reason that we did this Tony Rudy and I have been following this project very closely. And we knew about the CPA had been brought up by not just us it was brought up in many different town committee meetings in school building committee and school committee meetings and as the superintendent Morris even said like if somebody wants to, you know, if CPA wants to give us money for this will gladly take it. But when September rolled around, when the, we knew that the deadline was the end of September, and we specifically asked at a school building committee meeting, is anybody, or any official bodies, planning on writing a CPA application. And they said the answer was no. And this was already into September and so we put it together and submitted it not wanting to lose this opportunity. And we would, we would have absolutely welcomed somebody else, writing the the proposal and doing this but there was a deadline and we didn't want to miss the opportunity. I'm not going to debate it now but it just is unclear to me if the school committee feels it's so important to have this school and so important that will help reduce taxes for the citizens why they weren't far more aggressive in asking for the funds as as opposed to relying on private citizens, but I will I'll stop there and we'll have that discussion when we discuss the merits of these projects in my opinion I don't want to take this meeting for that discussion so thanks. Thanks. Thank you for commenting on Maria for responding. I would just add a comment generically that we have encouraged private citizens to provide input related to CPA just because it is a community based funding and the pickleball courts from the previous year come to mind which is a similar scenario of the citizens initiating something which was subsequently acknowledged by the town is something that was desirable I hear your points though Tim relating to why is it not originated elsewhere. I saw you looking to speak earlier I believe Rudy. If I could just add to the point the the other thing that could become a hang up down the line is the value engineering out of some portion or even all conceivably of the recreational fields in the project. There's three different value value engineering of course is just a fancy way of saying cutting stuff out of a project to make it cheaper. And there's three different periods of value engineering review built into the project schedule at different points in the design of the project. We know it's going to be under a lot of cost pressures, and by putting recreational funds from CPA in that I think will help underwrite and preserve and protect the community recreational field. In the full scope that it currently is in the in the school plans. So, it's, it's, that's another reason and that will then we think attract community recreational users of the fields to the whole project and just supporting it. So, it's not just the actual dollar amount to each family. There's also the psychological impact of getting whatever millions added in for this, but it, and then further is to protect the full development of the recreational fields the drainage that irrigation, the building it out as a level usable field. So, just wanted to throw that in the mix. Thank you, Rudy. I did see something related to a discussion I thought with the school committee related to the fields. Recently, I don't, as you indicated enough they voted or not, but we certainly can check between now and next week. The confirmation what if anything was discussed with the school committee related to recommending the fields project. Yeah, they, they did, they, they endorsed that field. That was my understanding. I want to be clear that currently the fields are in the scope of the school project and the school budget. I just want to see them stay there because I have an interest both in the school project and in the community recreational aspect and I think underrating it from CP with some CPA funds will help keep them in the project. So, thank you Rudy I have a question I guess or maybe it's just a confirmation of my understanding. It's correct that the items listed in the project other than the lighting is on the table to be presented to the greater community for a vote, a debt exclusion override essentially in other words, the fields are a component of the existing school project. And the question is not whether or not they will be included in the school project, but rather, how they're going to get funded. And you're referencing Maria and others who are proposing this in the time element of the, the potential benefits of making determinations in advance as opposed to later, and separate from that just for the committee. My understanding is and I believe there's been confirmation of this that I don't think the CPA committee would be in a position to award any funding for field projects once the town has committed to proceed with the school because then it would be fairly clear that we would be in fact supplanting funds that are already set to go. Am I correct Maria and or Rudy that the, the fields are a part of the school project regardless of what CPA does. The field improved some field improvements will be a part of the project the comfort station and the lighting are not they are not school project. But it doesn't mean that they will make it as Rudy was saying till the that the type of improvements the, the, the drainage and the really building out as a proper athletic field. That may not make it to the goal line to the end line. And I, that is, I, I don't, I don't understand this nearly as well as you guys do in terms of supplanting that that would that was a concern that we had to that if we were to come back. For example, next year that we felt that that might be a problem. Yep, sure. Andy you had your hand up next. Actually, Sean, did you want to. It was just quickly to say that we did reach out to the community preservation at coalition and Stuart about the supplanting question and he was pretty clear that the vote. For this project would have to happen before the vote, but by the council would have to happen before the vote for the larger project. To avoid the supplanting issue so that's something, depending on your recommendation, we'll have to work out with the council in terms of their timeline. Thank you Sean for confirming that, Andy. And then agreed to that so that actually. I know you have been presented with the question of can this be piecemeal. Is that another way we should be thinking about this is conversation and lighting. And that's as a proposal and so I'll make that as a comment I guess first and then maybe more my question is, would you say the primary driver of this ask is fear of value engineering, or is it we don't think there's enough money. I would say the two drivers would be that we think that by getting the funding it enhance it. It increases the likelihood that the debt exclusion will pass I think that that that is, you know, I, I this this project is going to come out to voters in May, and that's why we're coming here now is to increase those chances of its passage. Another component, I wouldn't say it's the primary but it's the another component is, if we can secure these funds for the fields to be improved in this way, then when this comes to its final development and when when they're ready to put shovels to ground. There will be an improvement in these recreational fields, which will benefit all of the, you know, the entire town for use, it will actually be improved and they won't get value engineered out. And there will be an upfront commitment of these funds that will sort of be a promise to the community from the recreational standpoint that this is going to happen. And I think that's important to have now, before we go to the exclusion vote. Thank you. Katie. Sorry, I feel like I'm a little lost in the debt financing and all of that because it feels like we would be at this level of request be using debt financing so I just sort of I'm not sure I understand. I apologize for not following the. I hear what you're saying Maria and I like oh that sounds good but then I'm thinking it's not that we have $3 million. So yeah, so I have that interacts. So the difference is that the way that the, the town is is at this point planning on pay and paying the town's portion of these elementary school building project from a debt exclusion. Right, which means that's asking people to increase their taxes over and above. You know, so it that is a tax increase you're voting your own tax increase. So if we could say, well, it's voting an increase of this much, we're at least trying to shade it down. You know, it's, you know, yes, you'll still have to, it's we're still asking for that, but it won't be as much. We didn't have this town borrowing money for the to finance the CPA funded project like this wouldn't affect taxes you're saying. Say, I'm sorry say that again. Yes. Oh, or Sean did you want it. If I add to your. Okay. So, so like, so the debt exclusion will obviously be debt, as Maria said that would be an additional tax if the town approves it for that portion that's funded by the debt exclusion. This project the piece that would not be part of that debt exclusion if the CPA committee recommends it would still be debt likely because you don't have enough CPA funds to fund it with all cash so it would still be debt but it would be debt. It would still be debt back through CPA funds which are already being assessed. So wouldn't be an increase in taxes but it would still be debt funded by the CPA. That's helpful. Thank you. Thanks, Sean. Thanks, Tim. Can you unmute templates. We can't hear you, Tim. Excuse me, it's in a way a political or marketing decision in a way to I mean you could say. For the, for the allocation of the funds until after the school project is approved and then citizens would have to decide whether that's appropriate. I think the argument here is, including having CPA funds available now would be a show of support that the town is in favor of this kind of project. In other case, the amount that the taxpayer is going to have to support with the debt override, could be whatever the total number is less that 3 million ish project cost. And it's just a matter of which. Bucket, we're talking about I think. I think Sean might be able to help with that. I think that was the supplanting question that if it happens after, if we get CPA money after the town council authorizes this debt, we can't come to you for CPA money. Or if the town authorizes the debt that doesn't include this. Why not. So you can't when the when it's okay, Sam, if I just. So when we go when the town votes on it they're going to have to vote the full project you wouldn't be able to vote. The project less something that isn't already in place. So the, the council will have to act on the full cost of the project less any grants or reimbursement that are coming from the MSBA. If the CPA is approved prior to that our understanding by working through our with our own or project manager that that can be used to support part of the project. If the CPA funds are approved after our understanding is that would be supplanting because the town council has already approved funding for the full project. So to make it easy is three million say the project total cost is 300 million. Is it three million in the project for the fields and the lighting and so on. Yeah, so it's a good question. So the part that could happen after could potentially be the comfort station and the lighting because that is not in the current design. The 2.4 2.5 would be in the total cost that would go to the. That's my understanding. I think that's unclear. I think that's unclear and we need to have clarity from the school committee and the building committee and what I heard Maria say was, they have far less cost, and her $3 million request was for a lot more enhancement. And we're not talking the same apples aren't apples here. And I just think we need to have a better understanding of that. Maybe it would this week might be a good time to show the slide that kind of breaks down that the field costs, if that's all right. That would be fine. Maria, there's no other presenters behind us so it's fine to continue and it sounds like a question that clarity could be beneficial. Okay, let me. Oh boy. Hang on a second. Let me stop sharing for a moment while I get this to queue up in the correct way. Okay. Okay. So these, this is a breakdown of the field improvements and this was taken directly from the elementary school building committees preferred schematic report which was submitted and accepted by the Massachusetts school building authority earlier this year. There were two cost estimators AM Fogarty and PM and C. And what I've this this top area is showing you the direct cost so this is basically materials that were that I pulled out I'll show you the lines, the line items separately at the bottom. But these were the direct costs that am Fogarty and PM and C had the construction costs is based on this is adding things like contingencies general conditions so labor that sort of thing brings it up by about 38% and then the total project costs is those numbers this is in soft costs, another 25%. And this is all based on the the cost estimators from that document that the school building committee produced. This is the average of those estimates. So this and this divided by two. I get this very confused but these were based on about 157 and 187 or something like that. So this is an average of about 175 or so square feet. It looks like in the newer plans, it's going to be closer to 200,000 square feet of fields which is approximately what you'd need to have for side by side. So this is an estimate field so that's this column but for some ease, maybe we should stick with this column. So these direct costs are broken down as follows. Oh, here we go. Sorry, I had the numbers here. This is a square feet of the yards by each cost estimated the cubic yards of materials. These were drainage loam topsoil hydroceed irrigation for each of the fields and then softball materials. So $1.3 million is how much the materials would cost to do the improvements for these athletic fields. $8 million would add in labor costs and contingencies. 2.2 million would be the total fields. These numbers are a hair lower than what I submitted back in the middle of September because we determined that there were some parts of this. So this had been 2.4 so this is a little bit lower here. That weren't actually part of the field itself. It was fencing and that kind of stuff. So this ends up being that $2.4 million in total project cost is kind of in between what I think they would it looks like the total field area is going to be this about 200,000 square feet versus 171. So, does that make things any more clear or did I just muddy the waters more. If I understood let me jump in for a second Maria. If I understood Tim's question the way I heard it was. Are the fields going to be a part of the project regardless of whether or not we vote CPA funds and therefore. If the project proceeds. Are there any aspects of your proposal that would not. That would be in addition to the expected school project and my understanding that that was the lighting and the comfort station. Yes, so there I mean it's not going to be, you know, this is basically the fields are going to take up the entire northern half of this of the site. But there's slated to proceed. If you were to fund your proposal, or whatever amount. The fields project is scheduled to proceed with the school vote, and the school planning group is deciding just how many square feet and what details, and what I heard and let me finish what I heard was that there might be some benefits of CPA funds to prevent some of the value engineering aspects of removing some of the perks for lack of a better term. Forgive me for paraphrasing, but I don't know if that helps Tim feel free to follow up with your question. No, I agree with that summary I guess. The dilemma that I have is I'm just not I would like to hear much more from the school committee and the building committee and how firm that 2.4 million is I mean what is the way I understand it. If the 2.4 is included in the overall cost of the school let's assume it's 100 million like. Let's see if it's included in that if we're going to go for a debt override whatever the general override won't be 100 million because it will be less the building the state building funds. So the debt override is we could reduce that cost further by just saying we're taking out the fields from this project, and we're going to ask future for in the future for monies for the fields and we're going to try to seek CPS right that's one option. I don't know if it's a good option or not. The other option is to now ask for the CPA to commit to fund that roughly 2.4 for the fields. And that would then be a source of funding other than the debt override for the town and Maria's argument is that might lower the potential tax burden for the average taxpayer because the debt override would be a little less. That's my understanding of what we're trying to talk about what I heard Tim from Sean was that the school fields are going to be a component of whatever is presented, regardless of whether or not CPA moves forward that is to say it's not under discussion to present to the town for a vote a plan that does not include fields. Fair enough. Alright, so that decision has been made. I didn't know that but okay, I will. That's what I heard from Sean. Okay. Yeah, I think it's a requirement that the scope that MSB CA agreed or whatever it is continues. As Sean said, I can't change the scope. There's been no discussion about not putting fields there. Yeah. Okay, so the fields are in there and then it's a question of whether we try to have good news CPN funds now, or if we do it would help mitigate the amount necessary for debt override by the part upon the part of the town. And Sam can I say one more thing. Sure. It's clear if the committee does approve this again it would likely be a debt authorization. Right. The funds would not be borrowed until the project till those costs actually start being incurred which would probably be a couple years down the road. So it's not like we wouldn't go out and borrow right away and then you know starting current costs now we would wait until till the cash flow for the project indicated that we had to borrow. I have one question. I guess it would be for you Maria. And it's falling up on Andy's comment with the 8% MSBA. My understanding is that the MSBA will be providing some amount of funding to this to Amherst for the school project assuming it goes forward. When I see the 8% fee to 7 million. There's a cap there. And I was slightly confused as to what that meant if that cap is exceeded. Does that mean that the total aggregate amount of MSBA funds that would be provided would be less, or simply that the total amount of funds would have to be allocated to something else other than the fields. So there's a, there's several limitations that the MSBA puts on different components. So for the site, they, their rule is this, you can't get more than 8% of the total project cost for the site, but they also have caps on the construction costs so not everything about the entire even the building itself is we're going to be over. They aggregate components of their funding based upon the specs, and that arrives at a cumulative amount as opposed to we're going to give you a lump sum of 40 million. Instead they say we're going to give you 10 million for this 30 million for that and a certain amount for the fields for the site work. Can I, can I add to that. Sean, please. So what they do is they give us a stated reimbursement rate which our stated reimbursement rate is somewhere in the 60% range. But then they only allow you to apply that reimbursement rate that they apply that reimbursement rate within other restrictions so that if they fix the site at 8% they'll take 8% and they'll apply that 65% reimbursement rate. And we'll get that back from them, but our total site costs maybe well above that so the effective reimbursement rate ends up being much, much, much lower than what the stated reimbursement rate is and as Maria mentioned, they do that with site costs they do that with overall construction costs they do that if there's a couple other things they do that with. So it's, it's much, much less satisfying when you actually see the final reimbursement. Last as hell. Thank you. So, are there other questions from committee members. Or Maria Rudy or others. Additional comments, Maria Rudy. Yeah, for me, I got involved in this because of the school initially, and my, my youngest son, despite my white hairs it's still in our public school system, and is playing ultimate after schools for the past year or so. It's a revelation to me to see Fort Rivers use by so many of our students after school. I'm, you know, sometimes the field seemed like there were hundreds of people there. Because I was the chauffeur and chief of course. And so I saw what an important thing it is that these fields are preserved in what we do at Fort River. So you can see the school project go forward. And that means that the voters have to accept it there has to be a wide support by a lot of different constituencies in town, and including this, we think the sports community. And so I kind of came to this as, you know, as because of my interest in seeing the school go forward first of all, and making sure we take full advantage of the Fort River site. One of the big advantages to that site and all the site selection discussion was that it had these large fields flat around the school. And so that was something I don't think we want to lose we want to make sure they're fully developed for good use by both the school and also the recreational community and our kids after school. So I hope whatever you can do to help that move forward, and we think a grant of something in the order of what we proposed will help that on both counts. Thanks. Thank you, Rudy. I just wanted to just before we end the conversation I'd like to, and before we begin our discussions of all the projects. Sean, can you provide us with the annual debt schedule for this roughly 2.4 million because I know we couldn't just use funds we'd have to borrow. But if we have debt of X, that's going to have to go in the equation in terms of other competing projects and we just need to understand that. Yeah, so yeah, we can normally what we do when you do your deliberation if there's any projects that you anticipate you may want to recommend a borrowing for, we will give you a projected debt schedule or a couple different options for a projected debt schedule so definitely Sean, and if there's any other projects that you are leaning that way we can give you that as well. Well, thank you Sean, and thank you all I wish it would be great for everyone in Amherst if we had just unlimited funds to do all these wonderful ideas and projects that folks come up with our task that we're going to begin meeting next week to start talking about the projects. But we're done with the presentations for now so I'd like to thank Maria and Rudy and Tony who's not here for presenting and listening and responding to all of our questions. So if you're up with additional questions will email them to you. If you're able to send the slideshow to Sonya or dissemination to the committee that would be great. Thank you both so much. Thank you so much for your time and attention and we know that you have an unenviable task and we really want to appreciate your service. Thank you. So, that one was a bit longer slightly more complicated than some of the other proposals. If those complete our presentations. I do want to remind committee members that we have asked all of the applicants to respond to two questions which I read earlier, essentially the ones that they've brought up in our first meeting. We're going to try with less and does this really need to be done this fiscal cycle. That's essentially what the questions were. We'll be hearing responses and provide it will be providing the responses to you all an aggregate when we get them, or if not those that have responded which will help in our deliberations. Our next item on the agenda is public comment. I'd like to invite anyone who is in attendance of this meeting, if they wish to speak to raise their hand, or somehow, some other means let us know that you would make a comment. I'm not seeing. I am seeing a hand up. It looks like it's Kathy Shane. Can you grant Kathy access. I don't see her here yet. Hi Kathy I can see your image and microphone appears to be muted. Can you hear us. Yes, I can. Thank you. I'll come on all the way. So first I want to make it clear I'm, I am a town counselor. I am also chair of the school building committee, but I'm talking as a resident, and I wanted to talk about two projects in support of them. One of them is trails. When Andy when you asked about walking these trails, I think I've walked most of them. And there are a few others that I'm going to make sure I send Dave Zomek a picture and Amy, because the boards are missing as you walk over the bridge, and you can go through the bridge the rest of the bridge is there, but the, what they've been doing to increase the accessibility on these trails and make them more usable has been truly remarkable. There are a few that a few years ago, unless you were hip boots you couldn't walk on them, because of the flooding and the board structures. So, being wise about the money if they have unused funds, I would, I'm a counselor so I get to see this at the other end and we always ask the question how much have they got in the reserve but I think this trail system we have is truly remarkable. And it's worth putting money in. And I just wanted to supplement a little bit of what you heard on the school building project. The school, the school primary school system owns those fields so the building committee can't really say anything about the field specifically, you know, in terms of it. The fields are in the project right now in what Maria slide showed you the direct cost part is clearly and you can't easily separate the fields from everything else because when you saw the where the building is right now. That building is coming down and a new building is being built so we'll be restoring some fields that don't exist at all in turning them into playing fields. So that the fields part of the direct cost is definitely in the budget and the Fort River project is more expensive than our other site was we had to choice of Wildwood or Fort River, because of the fields. And the need to improve the fields it's not just that there are more of them, but they don't drain very well. So it's an issue of making them more usable. So I just wanted to make it clear Tim you would ask it's not an at it's not an add on per se you know the the math when you start with the direct costs in the budget but when I asked the designer, can you break it out and I said well you know we're taking down the old school we're putting in a field and you know you can you can get pretty close with the direct costs but the designer fees are for the whole thing. So, so just any amount of support would be a reduction and Sean will be able to give you the tool and what we're going to have to ask taste taxpayers. Later on, if there were additional field improvements some point lights some points that can come later and this doesn't really need to hit your budget until 2025. In terms of the schedule of the school, because first the school has to be built before we go to the fields. And when he gives you when it's going to hit your budget in terms of your planning. So I just want to come back at, could it be less yes it could be less, you know, than the ask has been but any amount would reduce it so that asking how much does it reduce it so we are as a town looking at where are there other sources of funds ever sources giving us some has incentive money for certain kinds of heating systems that are more effective we're hoping to get some text cracks, but to put together an overall package to that makes a good show of we're trying to limit the impact on taxpayers but we desperately need this new school. So I just wanted to make it's not a total add on, it's in the budget right now. But it's always been, we knew by going to Fort River if we were going to restore the fields the fields we're going to add costs to the project so it's in our project budget. And that that's it, just speaking on behalf of people who are actually spending hours on this and it's a totally exciting project we've got, I must say. So, thank you. Thank you, Kathy for speaking out as a resident for new members Kathy also is the liaison for our committee from the council. And I'd also like to thank you Kathy for the huge amount of work you do on the council and the perhaps equally large amount of work you have been doing with the school project. But it's really hard for me to speak because I'm on the finance committee I'm on the lead and I'm a counselor, and it's, it's how many ways do I look at the these dollar numbers they're all they're all coming in at us so you're, you're, I would assume allowed to look at them as resident. So, thank you very much Kathy. So, the next item on our agenda is review any financial updates, if needed. I have, I do have an update on our budget, but I also wanted to remind the committee that next week, the beginning of our meeting is going to be the public hearing. So, that's when we'll have a bigger public comment, I guess, everybody can speak to the projects that they support them or don't support them. Okay, I'm going to share my screen real quick. I think if I can figure out how to do this. Can you see that. Yes. What are you saying are you seeing the agenda spreadsheet. Okay good. So the only change on here is that we have received our state aid. So that is no longer an estimate it's an actual. A couple hundred thousand more than when it was so our ending fund balance for this facility are 23 is estimated to be 9.7 or 9.8 million. Now, which carries down over and then the estimated surcharge and the estimated state match for next year, which brings us to 2.3 million. And then our debt service of course gets subtracted from that and then what we have for these projects right now is 1.9 million. However, if we release the budgeted reserve will have 2. Almost 2.5 million. Everybody see that. I see it on the handout. Yes. So that's pretty much it. Nothing else has changed. Okay. So everybody get that 19. 1,911,000 but then an additional amount if the reserves are included that brings it up to 2.44. Right million. Okay. That's helpful. Thank you. Um, so. I don't have any topics that were not anticipated in the last 48 hours. We've had a lot of proposals brought before us and we have information on them. We have the capacity to make inquiries, although. At this point, you know, we need to gather the information and try to come up with our own thoughts on these projects. There will be some opportunity for additional public comment, but as a committee. So our task at hand, in addition to doing our own research is to begin to. And our subsequent meeting to start coming up with ratings on these and we'll proceed in a deliberate fashion. Dave, I see your hand is up. Dave Zomek. I know you want it. You want him. And this meeting I just I was talking to Sonya earlier and I, I wondered if I could just bring up one issue that we're working through on a CPA related project and, and just so the committee wouldn't be surprised to potentially see it on the town council agenda. But very quickly in help me out here Sonya it would be FY 23 we asked for some trail funding, which I believe is $150,000, and it was specifically targeted toward Hickory Ridge trails at Hickory Ridge. You may have seen recently that the conservation department applied for a park grant for Hickory Ridge for essentially focused on excessive an accessible trail there, and we were able to get $280,000 toward that grant. The intention is to use the CPA funds that were recommended by this committee to the town council and authorized by the town council toward that grant and I, I guess I didn't want the CPA committee to be surprised if you saw that on an upcoming council town council agenda. We're going to bring it to the town council. It's part of a state grant so the town needs to accept the grant and dedicate some of the land to this project at their at the council's meeting on 1219 on December 19. So Sonya was anything more, you know, and I'm happy to forward the various documents memos to Sonya that she could share with you I don't think this is anything extraordinary or out of the ordinary. We leveraged the CPA funds with $280,000 worth of state funds, but when we asked for the funds, we asked for them more broadly for trails at Hickory Ridge. And so that money will go toward trails at Hickory Ridge, but we leveraged those funds and got $280,000 additional dollars there. For you said Hickory Ridge at Hickory Ridge. All of the funding will be spent there has was intended but I just didn't want the committee to see that and go wait a minute. Dave never told us about that but I'll never told us about that. Sonya does that, you know, is that capture it. Yep. Thank you for doing that. That sounds like a pretty good return on funds, assuming it's not digitized. No, that's what we try to do, you know, we try to go out there and chase additional matching funds but I just didn't want you to be surprised when you saw that potentially in the newspaper on a council agenda later in December. So thank you. It's great to hear the funding award. Thank you Dave. So, I don't have anything else on the unanticipated for today's meeting. Okay Andy. Well, just so making sure that we're all ready for the next meeting is, you know, we, we should have all of our preliminary scores ready. We'll be capturing those on the Thursday meeting, or is there to give you more public comment and just kind of open discussion. I mean, haven't confirmed the agenda but what we've done historically when I've been in the committee and you as well as that the next meeting we, we enable public comment on the varying projects. And then we proceed to begin deliberation and the onset of the deliberation typically has been that we come out with initial votes on the straw polling excuse me not votes just polling as to where we. We are as a committee we could, I suppose, talk about them all and come up with a stop only but really the purpose of the stop polling is for us to get an idea where we are. And then from there, talk about every project. All of them, not voting on anything because we can all be influenced by the comments of other committee members and also by the overall project scope so yes Andy. We would want to arrive at that meeting with our own initial thoughts and ratings on the projects to assist us as we go through discussions and the components aside from the the general merits of the project is also just factoring in however you wish the varying expenses affiliated with it. Everyone has their different, you know, means of doing it I sometimes have, you know, smaller dollar projects. I like getting lots of those but that's distinct from the merits of the project that's a budgetary issue so all of you should all of us should look at all the questions that have been presented. Let's wait for any final responses that will be coming to us for the questions, and then we'll begin to talk about it and try to see how to proceed with this task in front of us. Which a lot of good projects and the asks are certainly significantly larger than our current budget. Thank you for bringing that up and hopefully I answered your question. So, again we'll be meeting next week, expect an email before that meeting with the responses to the two questions that we posed all applicants. If you reach out to me and or two town staff, Sonya or liaison that is say Sonya or Sean. Just CCS both, if there are certain questions and you know for new members you might want to revisit the links I don't recall if I sent them to you or not a deliberation process I do have it I'd be glad to send you our sessions from last year just so you get an idea of what we do. I'll go from there. And yes, I saw a hand come up and go down. That was just me Sam I, I just said, I think I can ask this question offline with you or I can ask at the beginning of the about the straw pulling and if it's really necessary if we are going to discuss every single project, I, I sort of see straw pulling to prioritize which ones. We might not need to talk about because we're not going to fund at all. If the group agrees but if we're going to talk about all of them and maybe we don't need to straw poll and just simply have discussion about each one and then vote at the end. The straw pulling is helpful because it gives us context as to which ones might come into play it gives a number that's associated with it tells which ones there is less interest in it's a clarification of thoughts that people have on them. So, motivate the five processes to kind of stick with the means that we've been doing it previously. We can talk further on that but at present the task is for us to come up with those, those numbers we've done it every year and I've, I think it's helpful to just give a give a perspective for everyone's hat. Okay. Sounds good. So, we'll, I guess we were going to be busy soon. And actually this week I'll certainly be busy over the weekend. And thank you all for coming. Feel free to ask questions and hopefully we'll get a little bit of more information and start our process now so we're certainly not going to. I don't anticipate our coming to conclusions in one session given the volume that we have to do but we'll try to proceed deliberately. So it's currently 833 p.m. and I will adjourn this meeting. Good night everybody.