 So welcome to the National Archives. I'm Deborah Wall. I'm the acting archivist. So welcome to our William G. McGowan Theater here at the National Archives building in Washington, DC. I'm really glad you could join us for tonight. Sorry, we had a little bit of a late start. I'm really looking forward to this program before 42 about the predecessors of Jackie Robinson and their work to integrate professional baseball. Tonight's program is one of many representing in connection with our current exhibit, All American, The Power of Sports. And that's on display two floors up in our Lawrence F. O'Brien Gallery. And it's a really, really good exhibit if you haven't seen it, please take a look. So we do hope you'll return to this theater on Thursday, May 4th. That's our next in-person program related to All American. There's a panel discussion called Girl Power, inspiring the next generation of women athletes. And it's for a distinguished women athletes to account how they tackled the belief that girls can't do that and how a background in sports led them to success in life. So to find out about this and other National Archives programs and exhibits, please visit our website at archives.gov. It's now my great honor to welcome our opening speaker to the stage, United States Representative from South Carolina, James E. Clyburn. Oh yeah. So Congressman Clyburn is the Assistant Democratic Leader in the United States House of Representatives. He previously served in the post from 2011 to 2018 and served as majority whip from 2007 to 2010 and 2019 to 2022. So that makes him the first African-American to serve multiple terms as majority whip. The native son of South Carolina, Congressman Clyburn, has represented the state's six congressional districts since 1993. Please join me in welcoming Congressman Clyburn. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very, very much. Thank you. It's a real pleasure for me to be here with you this evening. Thanks to all of you for coming out on this, I think, magnificent occasion. I want to thank the National Archives Museum for inviting me to be a part of this program this evening. I want to thank the Foundation for inviting me to share some welcome remarks for this important discussion that we're going to have in a few minutes. Not everyone knows the story of 42. I'm not a big movie person. I read books a whole lot, but I very seldom go to a movie. So I'm maybe one of the few people I know who've never seen 42. But I'm also maybe the only person in here who enjoyed not just watching Jack O'Robison play. I was seven years old when Jack O'Robison made the big entree into the major leagues. But I also got the campaign with him. Jack, he was a bona fide Republican. I'm a bona fide Democrat. And of course, many of you may recall he resigned his position on the staff of Nelson Rockefeller back in 1968 because he was disenchanted with the nominee of the Republican Party and went out the campaign for Hubert Humphrey and Ed Muskie. And we shared the stage together in Charleston, South Carolina on October 22nd, so I remember Jack very well on more than one front. Most people, of course, don't know much about the people who showed us he stood on. Now, I remember them not from watching them play, but baseball was my sport in high school and college. And so the names like Josh Gibson were very, very familiar to me. And I've studied and read a lot about these people over the years. And it was a great honor for me several years ago when I was going out to Kansas City. I don't remember exactly what for on that occasion, but my good friend Adam Sacks, who's got some friendships tonight who I think was the best man in your wedding, invited me on a private tour. Mr. Kendrick, who you'll be hearing from later, has given me two tours of the museum there in Kansas. The whole story of the Negro League is a very, very important one to me. And I remember when they would come to Columbia, South Carolina, to Bonn-Storm. It was a sense of pride for all of us. If you gotta remember, Jackie, who was 1947, the armed services of the United States of America, the armed services that he actually served in did not integrate until 1948. So, Jackie Robinson was very important to all of us, but we knew a whole lot about the people that made it possible. There's a lot of debate that still continues today as to whether he was the best baseball player of the crowd. He may not have been. The argument can be made that it wasn't, but I know one thing. He was the best citizen, the best citizen. You served the country the way he did as a soldier. Played baseball the way he did, and you get a try with the Boston team, and they said you weren't good enough. And he demonstrated the kind of stick-to-it-ness that we all wish we could have today. The thing that gets me most about this after these gentlemen played this game and made the sacrifices to really do what was necessary to lay the foundation for Jackie Robinson and all of them were eligible to go into the league. And frankly, who was it? My staff gave me the name. I couldn't remember who it was. It was a Rope, Wendell Smith wrote the story. Went out and did an interview. He interviewed the white players in the league and asked them what they thought about in the group. 75% of them says, fine, let's do it. And so I think that what you're gonna see here tonight is how unfair and inhuman it is to reject, ignore, and just downright give ill respect to talent. And we say we are a meritorious society. We still have a lot of work to do. I hope that what you see and hear here today will serve as a foundation for them which you can make some decisions about whether or not you can make a competition to get in our country back on track in this pursuit of a more perfect union. These men did their part, will we? Thank you. So tonight our distinguished panel of guest speakers will discuss the story of integration and the baseball greats who led the way for Jackie Robinson. We're pleased to have with us Bob Kendrick, the president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum in Kansas City, Missouri. The Reverend Ray Mackie III chairman of the Biz Mackie Family Foundation and our moderator ESPN commentator and host Clinton Yates. Mr. Yates joined ESPN in February 2016 as a member of the editorial team that launched The Undefeated, a website focused on the intersection of sports, race and culture. On television he's a panelist on Around the Horn and a regular panelist and host on Outside the Lines. Before joining ESPN, Mr. Yates worked for The Washington Post for nine years where he covered local news, sports, politics, pop culture and more. Please welcome Clinton Yates, Bob Kendrick and Ray Mackie to the stage. What's up, boys? They're dressed better than I do. I live in California now, which is why I'm dressed like this. No worries. So let's get this started. For those of you who don't know, I am a huge baseball guy. I learned how to play at Catholic University of America. I played in Northwest Little League where I was an all-star in 1993. I was the only black kid on that team. And I grew up in this city. Baseball is a big love of mine. I've told this story many times. When I was in Little League, I asked my dad right over there, how long do you think it's gonna take for us to get a team back in D.C.? The O's were here. I didn't really root for the O's, but you followed the O's. He said 10 years. I waited. He was off by two, it took 12. So by the time the Nationals got here, I was a 24-year-old human being and I bawled my eyes out at RFK Stadium where I'd grown up watching so many sports. So to talk about baseball and D.C. is very important to me and I wanna thank you all for being here. Thank you guys. Let's start sort of differently. This is called Before Jackie, but I actually wanna get your thoughts on what you think about the brand of Jackie right now. In the last 20 years, the recognition of who he is from MLB, from various partners around the world, from various, just people in general has gone through the roof. It's effectively a different brand from sort of who he was. What do you think about where we are right now? I'll start with you, Bob, in terms of how we see Jackie, not just as baseball fans, but as sports fans and Americans in general. He is such a complicated figure. And I do think that the way his story has been sold is that his story started and ended in 1947. And he is so much bigger than that monumental moment that took place on April 5th, 1947. Jackie is as complicated a figure as you will ever encounter. And I remember, I go back to something that my dear friend, the late great Buck O'Neill, said about Jackie. And a lot of times, a lot of young people will come into the museum, Clinton, and they get a glimpse of all the things that Jackie endured. And somehow or another, they will say, well, he must have been soft. He must have been some kind of Uncle Tom. And this is so far from Jackie. Rob, Jackie, as Buck O'Neill would describe, was as fiery and feisty and individual as you will ever meet. He humbled himself to do what he did. And as Buck would say, Jackie could duke and would duke. He would knock you on your romper. And so he humbled himself for the greater good. But for me, as I delve deeper into his incredible story, I don't know if you find too many people who was as beloved by black folks and then later, not so much by black folks because of his political views. And the fact that his political views certainly changed from time to time and then back in love again with him. I think the other person for me would be Muhammad Ali, where he was revered, despised, and then revered by the time of his passing as one of the greatest, maybe the greatest, recognized athlete on the face of the planet when he dies. And it was much the same with Jackie because Jackie became a Republican. He became a Republican. And that rubbed some black folks wrong. And I tell the story and I'm sure Congress and Clyburn would agree with me on this. Growing up in the Deep South, there were three pictures on every black person's house on the wall in their house in the Deep South. You had a picture of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. You had a picture of John F. Kennedy and you had a picture of Jesus. And if you said something bad about any of those three, it was not good and Jackie took on John F. Kennedy. Yeah, he took on John F. Kennedy and that rubbed a lot of black folks wrong because Jackie believed that Kennedy was being too soft on civil rights because he was trying to protect the white Southern vote. You know what? Kennedy was being too soft on civil rights because he was trying to protect the white Southern vote. And so Jackie sided with Nixon and that rubbed a lot of black folks wrong. And then Nixon kind of betrayed Jackie when King is incarcerated and Nixon wouldn't call Coretta and he wouldn't do anything to try and get King out of jail. And that rubbed Jackie wrong and then Jackie was so proactive in the civil rights movement. You look at these photographs of Dr. King, he shoulder to shoulder with Dr. King. He never left the fight. So it didn't stop there with baseball. It didn't stop there with baseball. He never left the fight. And I think that's the oftentimes under reported side of Jackie Robinson. He died so incredibly young. Rev, I wanna get your thoughts on that exact topic. You are a Negro League lineage. Where do you think the legacy of Jackie is right now? So I wanna start with the banishment or the ban of Negro Leagues players, black players in baseball because you look at other sports, football, basketball, you don't hear about a ban of African Americans. It was only baseball. So you have to ask the question, why baseball? As I look at Jackie Robinson, somehow Jackie Robinson comes off as, for instance, his playing in the nationals, being the first African American to play in the nationals, as though it was a benchmark for African American players. And I think that's been a misnomer for so many decades. Wasn't so much Jackie Robinson being the first African American to play in the nationals more so than him just being a great baseball player. And I think too much emphasis was placed on the fact and has been and continues to be placed on the fact of him being the first African American to play in the nationals. That's always, yeah. I would have much rather and much rather see a different tone and tenor of him just being a great baseball player who exceeded at that level because in the same year you have Larry Dovey who also was the first African American to play in the American League, but his reputation or the sort of the spotlight, if you will, was diminished and overshadowed considerably by Jackie Robinson. So that would raise the next question as to why? When both of them were two of the first. If you want some background education on Jackie, there's a whole museum now in New York. It's great. I've been there, wrote a column about it. It's fun. It's about his life more so than just his sports career. It's also a whole documentary called After Jackie. You know how I know? I'm in it. So there's a lot of, what I'm saying is there's a lot of information out there. There's a lot of sort of Jackie Inc, if you will. But let's get to the real deal. My mama, she's from KC Moe. If you don't know where Kansas City, Missouri is, figure it out. That is also where Bob runs his operation from. And when you go to the museum, what you figure out is not only who we were as black folks on the baseball field, but who we were societally as well. Rev, I'll start with you a little bit on this one because before Jackie, there was a whole thing. The leagues were real. And if you don't know, the Negro leagues weren't just one league. Folks are trying to stay in business all over the place. It's a great time span of that. What do you think about where we are in terms of what we know about the Negro leagues before Jack Roosevelt Robinson ever showed up in Brooklyn? That's a great question. So we know very little and particularly youth of today and particularly African American community. We know very little. Jackie Robinson was actually the fourth player, if you will, to play alongside white teammates because you had the Bud Fowler who in the later 19th century who played singer Lily among predominantly whites. And then of course you had the wealthy brothers, Moses Fleetwood and his brother. So they were three black men who played prior to the segregation. And then you had around the early 1919, 1920 when the Negro leagues started after being banished, quote unquote for Jim Crow laws, et cetera, that sort of thing. So essentially for 33, four decades you have black men post-Civil War pre-Civil Rights who have this freedom, this liberated freedom, so to speak. They're traveling the world. They're traveling to places like Tokyo, obviously where Viz hit first home run out of Meijin, Jingu Stadium, which by the way today is his commemoration day, it was April 20th, 1927. So we're celebrating that on today as well. But they were traveling, they were global ambassadors before they were playing global baseball before what we see now as global baseball. They were playing in places like Cuba, Dominican, Mexico, Hawaii, throughout Latin America and they were sharing their character, their discipline, their experiences about the game with people in other country. Really future champions of the game. And so now we see all these players emerging from places like Cuba, Dominican, Venezuela, Latin America and people are wondering, wow these guys are so astounding. Where did they learn to play baseball from? Guess where? Negro Leagues had planted those seeds three, four decades ago. And so there's a lot of mischaracterization about Negro Leagues that they were playing out and cow pastors and things of that nature. No, they were playing in front of dignitaries of other countries. They were even occasioned when they played in Japan where the emperor met the team, shook biz hand. They had pictures with the mayor of Tokyo so they were political delegations that met them. And I think we'll get a chance maybe to see some of the photos. And they weren't slouches. They presented themselves well. They were men of integrity, men of character. And so there was a lot to learn from them and that history, that oral history, has not really been articulated or disseminated to youth of today or certainly baseball fans of America. Bobby can't take up the whole hour. I know, I know. But I gotta ask you, just in terms of what the American societal climate was at that point before anybody knew who Jackie Robinson was in terms of the KC Monarchs and Brent Tricky and all that, can you lay out a little bit for folks what the American sporting world was for black baseball players before Jackie? We had been playing baseball for a long time. This was not a new phenomenon for black folks playing baseball. As a matter of fact, there are early indications of us playing even as enslaved people. So we've been playing this game for a long time. It didn't get a successful organized structure until 1920 in a meeting held in Kansas City at the Paseo YMCA, right around the corner for where the Negro League Baseball Museum cooperates. Yeah, right around the corner for where the museum currently operates. Matter of fact, we are in the process of converting that old historic landmark into an education and research center in memory of the late great Buck O'Neill. And so they meet there at the Paseo YMCA on February 13, 1920, led by the great Andrew Rube Foster, who in my own estimation is the greatest baseball mind this sport has ever seen. And no one knows who the heck he is, even though he is rightfully enshrined in the National Baseball Hall of Fame. I'm proud to say that there are a couple of relatives of Rube Foster with us here tonight, which I'm just thrilled to see them here. And Rube Foster was light years ahead of his time. Rube Foster had been a great pitcher himself in the early era of black baseball. As a matter of fact, he is credited with having invented what we now know to be the screwball. Back then it was called a fadeaway. And Rube perfected this pitch so much so that the great major league manager, John McGraw, would sneak Rube into his camp so that Rube Foster could teach Christy Matheson how to throw the screwball. Christy Matheson threw the pitch all the way into the National Baseball Hall of Fame that he learned from Rube Foster. But Foster was best known as this visionary, this tremendous leader. So he would organize the Negro Leagues there in Kansas City. He would become president of the Negro Leagues. He owned the Chicago American Giants, and he managed the Chicago American Giants. And Rube Foster, folks, is that rare baseball commodity who would have gone in the Hall of Fame as a player, as a manager, and as an executive. And you don't find many that check all three boxes. That is how brilliant he was. And when he created the Negro Leagues on February 13, 1920, he stood proudly at the Paseo YMCA Congressman and proclaimed, we are the ship, all else the sea. He was sending a resounding message to Major League Baseball that a new player had arrived on the scene to be reckoned with. Yeah, now this league he built was absolutely brilliant and was so different than what people perceived it to be. One of the things that struck me when I went to the museum is how many ancillary parts of baseball are credited to the Negro Leagues. You don't know. The reason why folks play night games is because they wouldn't let black folks play during the day at the stadium. So we started playing at night. Could you expand a little bit on some of the other things that Negro League Baseball brought to the sporting world as a whole that we now consider regular stuff? Schengars, the batting helmet. The batting helmet was derived from a player named Willie Wells. Willie James Wells nicknamed him El Diablo, the devil, because he could dig it out the dirt. They called him El Diablo in Mexico. And Willie Wells was a tenacious kind of ball player, fierce competitor. And a notorious spitball pitcher named Bill Bird hit Willie Wells in the head and knocked him unconscious when he comes to, I'm sure had a concussion. We know what a concussion was back in those days. Nobody knew what a concussion was. It was in your bell rock. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And so they told Wells that he can't come back and play. This is in the playoffs. You can't come back and play as too dangerous. So what does Willie Wells do? He comes to the ballpark the next day with a construction helmet that he had taped around his head. That's crazy. And that becomes the early advent of the batting helmet. And as Clinton mentioned, Night Baseball. Night Baseball originated in the Negro Leagues folks five years before they ever played a night game in the Major Leagues. Now, our history book says 1935, Cincinnati, Ohio, Cincinnati Reds versus Philadelphia Phillies. Well, the history book is wrong. The first professional night baseball game 1930. And it featured our very own Kansas City monarchs, James Leslie Wilkinson, who you'll hear more about tonight, particularly in this episode in and around how Jackie gets to the show. Wilkie with Pioneer Night Baseball in 1930. Literally, mortgage everything he had to do so. Portable, generated light towers. So not only could they play a night game in Kansas City, they could load them up on the truck and play a night game virtually anywhere. And truth of the matter is, by the time they played that game in Cincinnati, the monarch and a team called the House of David. The House of David religious sect based out of Benton Harbor, Michigan, characterized by their long hair and very long whiskers. They were mimicking David from the Bible, but they had a great connection to Black Baseball because they would barnstorm all over the country. Well, the monarch and the House of David had taken Night Baseball all the way out to Seattle before they played that game in Cincinnati. And Wilkie wasn't doing it to be innovative. He was doing it for survival. You were right on. Because really, the Negro Leagues were primarily relegated to playing on Sundays. Major League Baseball didn't play on Sundays. So the Negro Leagues would rent the ballpark, play that Sunday double header, and Black folks left church going straight to the ballpark, dressed to the nines as they would say, looking good. And so Wilkie was trying to get the working class fan into the ballpark. And Night Baseball became the answer. Night Baseball became bigger than Sunday games. And y'all Sunday games were so popular that Black churches would move their service time up an hour so fast go to the game. You're right. If you know anything about the Black church, you don't mess with service time. No, no, no. Suddenly go to meeting at 11 o'clock. When the monarchs were in town or the homestead graves service started at 10 o'clock. And everybody found out going to that Sunday double header. Rev, I want to get your thoughts a little bit on your personal family lineage with the Negro Leagues. And to a certain extent, while you're here, I think a lot of people look at it as just kind of history, something in a book, something in a museum, but folks live the lives. What about you guys? Well, I must initially thank the foundation for having us. I think that oral history is such an extremely important part of our heritage, particularly in the African-American or people of color in our culture, oral history tends to resonate a lot better. Not that we don't like books and that sort of thing, but oral history, I think just in general across the board because Bob does a really good job of eloquently, he takes you right into the moment and characterizes the scene and everything, and that's the beauty about oral history. And so that's really fascinating for me. But for me personally and for my family, the Biz Mackey Family Foundation, our goal is to advance certainly heritage, not just our heritage, but the heritage of baseball, the impact and imprint that one of our ancestors made in the sport of baseball, not just Negro League, in the sport of baseball, he was one of the first global ambassadors of the sport. And there are a lot of people who recognize that from, you know, historians, Japanese historians, there are even players, current managers, Dave Roberts, who's the manager out at, with the Los Angeles Dodgers, has been talking about Biz's global legacy. And so it just becomes profoundly important, particularly if you wanna reach young people and young African-Americans of color in this country to become more involved in baseball, it becomes important that they really know our history and the impact, the imprint that we've made in the game. So from a lineage standpoint, this is our messaging and we'd like to continue to share. And that's in part of what we do. We share with schools and community organizations. Again, really the impact of Negro Leagues because what I have found, and I shared with you this earlier, that you asked young people today who was the first African-American to play baseball and they say Jackie Robinson, because it's not being taught in our schools. Negro League baseball is not being taught in our schools. They're not being given the proper credit that's been due or that is due to them. Like I said, having played around the globe, literally, sharing their talents, their skill sets, that has further advanced a lot of the players that we see in modern-day baseball. So we see their sustaining culture still in Major League baseball, but we don't see Major League baseball reaching back to fully engage their legacy in the sport. And in doing so, you would be able to draw more African-Americans into the sport. As of right now, there's approximately 1,000 players in professional Major League baseball, only 58 of them are African-American. It's less than 6%, only four are from Texas. And that are actually in the league. You only have two African-American managers, and Dave Roberts out with the Dodgers, and Dusty Baker in my home state of Texas, Houston Astros. And so, I mean, that's great, but we would love to see a greater impact simply because I don't believe we're seeing the best baseball because you don't necessarily have the community at large. You're not seeing the best of all players, segments of all populations, engaging in the sport. And so, I feel that it's an accountability thing on my part. We're all accountable for something. Ancestry, our family legacy, our integrity, our heritage, and this happens to be one that's very personal and dear to me, like I said, because of the impact. One of the things with Biz, prior to, I mean, he spent over three decades in Negro League Baseball as a player and a player manager and was directly responsible for six Hall of Famers who went on to play in Major League Baseball. So, his impact was not only just, you know, from a player of sharing his talents, but his legacy lived on through those other players who went on and several of them became managers like Monty Irland and Irving and Don Newcomb who was out at the Dodgers. They became managers. And so, we need to be able to share this sort of oral heritage and history with our youth of today. Quickly, Bob. It's important to note that Mackie was a catcher. One of the most cerebral positions on the field, if you wanna know the direct path from a position to a manager standpoint, still in baseball today, it's behind the dish. There's exactly one black catcher in the big league. Yeah, and please understand for those of you who are hearing the name Biz Mackie for the first time. Biz Mackie, arguably, is the greatest defensive catcher this sport has ever seen. It would be Biz Mackie who would take a young Roy Campanella under his wing and taught him the art of catching. Campy comes to a team right down the road from here, the Baltimore E-Lite Giants. I love saying that. Now, it's spelled elite, but it's pronounced E-Lite because you make those Negro Lakers mad if you call them the elite Giants. They were the E-Lite Giants. And a young Roy Campanella joins the E-Lites at age 15. I know, a 15-year-old catcher in the Negro League. Now, granted, Campy was not your typical 15-year-old. He was a 15-year-old man child, but he was 15, nevertheless. And the great Raleigh Biz Mackie takes him under his wing and taught him the art of catching. Roy Campanella, folks, will become a three-time MVP with the Brooklyn Dodgers before a tragic car accident derails what was still a Hall of Fame career. And if Campy was allowed to date, he'd tell you the greatest defensive catcher of this sport has ever seen was Raleigh Biz Mackie. So his influence is still being felt. But the role that he played, the catching role, that role that you just referenced as that cerebral role, did not really transition from the Negro League's into Major League Baseball because there was this prevailing belief that we weren't smart enough to play the position. When truth of the matter is, the catching position in the Negro League was really far more superior than it was in the Major League. And we just simply never got that chance. And that is still in place to this day. You see very few black catchers in the Major League. And that position just simply did not transition. So the role of the black catcher, the pitcher, and the shortstop for the better part of the middle of the middle of the middle. And so thus those guys who were catchers became managers. But it was the same thing in the Negro League. These guys who were catchers became managers. Ted, double duty, Radcliffe. And well, you know, as you notice, they had great nicknames in the Negro League. If you didn't have a great nickname, you probably couldn't play. You're right. Yeah, you probably couldn't play. And of course, Ted, double duty, Radcliffe got his nickname double duty when the great sports writer, Damon Runyon, saw duty catch a satchel page shutout in the first game of a double header, took off the catcher's gear, took the mound and threw a shutout in the second game of the double header and said he was worth the price of two admissions. He was double duty from that day on. He lived to 103 when he passed away in Chicago in 2005 and wherever duty is to date. I'm sure he's talking. Yeah, I'm sure he's talking and telling stories as only double duty could. They played the double duty classic in Chicago. It's a high school game between, you know, all-star kids from the area, black players. It's fantastic. It is fantastic. Love to who Radcliffe was. Now, let's get to Jack. Jack was a star. UCLA, played four sports. Oh, America. I mean, people knew who this guy was before he was a baseball player. Sir, could you please illuminate us on what his monarch's history was before he ever got to the big leagues? Yeah, and honestly, y'all, baseball was Jackie's weakest sport. It was his weakest sport. He's a much better basketball, football, track athlete than he was baseball player and some say an even better tennis player. So there was absolutely nothing that Jackie couldn't do and you can see him there as a member of the great Kansas City Monarch. So before he was number 42, he was number five for the Kansas City Monarchs. And Jackie's story is so interesting because he seemingly was always in the right place at the right time. So if you know Jackie's story, he served and the congressman talked about how valiantly he served during World War II. He's enlisted in the Army in 1942, drafted into World War II. He served at Fort Riley in Kansas, is where he was enlisted. In 1942, the great Kansas City Monarchs won the Negro League World Series. I hate to rub some of you Homestead Grays fans. I saw a Homestead Grays jersey up there. We swept the power for Homestead Grays. Four games to nothing to win that Negro League World Series in 42, but the Grays bounced back in 43 and won a World Series here in D.C. Well, Jackie's assigned to Fort Riley Kansas. Right up the road from the Negro League baseball museum. You know who else was there in 1942 at Fort Riley? Joe Lewis, I thought I heard it up there. Joe Lewis, the heavyweight boxing champion of the world. And at that time, Joe Lewis was the star. Joe Lewis would be the heavyweight boxing champion of the world, or the world's fastest man. Those were the two most prestigious sports titles that could be held in American society. And so Fort Riley was not admitting blacks into his office school program, even if they had the qualifications. And Jackie and several others had more than the necessary qualifications Jackie had got in UCLA. So it had more than the necessary qualifications. But if you recall, Joe was doing exhibition prize fights to raise money for the armed forces. And he and others protested, and Joe calls in a favor. And that's how Jackie gets into office of school. Well, when he finishes office of school training, he's reassigned to Fort Hood, or what would be considered Fort Hood in Texas then. And that is where he was court-martialed from the US Army for refusing to give up his seat to a white person on the bus. This is well before Rosa Parks refused to do the same thing. Jackie wins his court-martial trial. He is honorably discharged. That's when he writes to Kansas City Monarchs owner James Leslie Wilkinson and asks for a tryout. The Great Hilton Smith had seen Jackie playing military baseball, and had recommended Jackie to Wilkie even prior. But when he gets out of the military, he writes to Wilkie, asks for a tryout. They try him out in your town, Houston, Texas. And he makes the team. He makes the team. And as I tell the story in my podcast, Black Diamonds, little did J.O. Wilkinson know he had just signed the man that was gonna put him out of business. Because five months later, Jackie was gone. And I was blessed, y'all, to know several of his former teammates who were monarchs in 1945. And they will all tell you if they were here, there was no fanfare whatsoever around Jackie joining the monarchs. He was just another ball player trying to make the team. And quite frankly, had it not been for World War II, I'm not sure Jackie gets invited to try out for the monarchs. Because when Jackie joins the monarchs in 1945, Buckle Neil is serving in the U.S. Navy, Super Bay Philippines, a guy by the name of Ted Strong. And for you baseball fans, Ted Strong was Dave Winfield before we ever knew who Dave Winfield was. He served, yeah, absolutely. He was a star in the Negro leagues and then he was a star basketball player for the Harlem Globetrotters. Six, seven, two, four, they played every position except for pitch and catch. He was a six, seven shortstop. Uh-huh, and he's in the Army. Hank Thompson. Hank Thompson holds the distinction of having integrated two major league teams. He integrates the St. Louis Browns and he integrates the New York Giants. So he's with the Giants even before Willie Mays and Monty Irving are there. Uh-huh, and so he's serving in the Army. Willard Brown, Hall of Fame outfielder. He's serving in the Army. So Ted Strong was actually in the Navy. But Willard Brown is serving in the Army. If the Monarchs have their full contingent of players, Jackie never gets invited to try out for the Monarchs and how would history have been altered? Yeah, five months later he was gone. He literally disappears. Rev, some of these names are names that you know, he knows, I know, for what you do now. You know, you speak to the people. This is a part of who you are. How does the lineage of the Negro leagues make you who you are right now in terms of how you present your word and how you lead your folks? Well, that's a good question. I don't believe that we can erase history. I don't believe that we can erase legacy. It can remain dormant. One of the things that I said about Biz's career, it was approximately 40 years after his death before he was even inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame. But the work that had been placed that had been put in, the historical aspect of it could not be erased. There's this old saying about cream rises to the top. Truth always prevails. And so, sort of the answer to your question is that we have to continue to share through moments like this evening, to share this oral history, the significance of it, the importance of it. And hopefully many of you all who are sharing in this evening will go back and say that you've learned something new and excited about Negro League Baseball, about really the forebearers. And what I'd like to say, even while it was Negro League Baseball, it was really the sport of baseball. And I think that's what I really would like to resonate in people's minds. That Biz, along with these other legends and forebearers of the sport, they were the greatest at what they did, not the fact that they were Negro in the Negro League's baseball, they were great baseball players. And their skill sets resonated through other players who went on and excelled. And so I think that's the legacy that we put forward is that minus defining Negro Leagues versus, and let me say this, Robert Manfred did something, I thought was really extraordinary when he neutralized or equalized Negro Leagues with Major League back in 2020 to recognize their play as Major League play. I still think it's a mystery in terms of why baseball only, African-Americans were banned, but setting that aside, let's work on the fact of their legacy, of what their legacy, and how it impacted the sport and not so much the league. Rob Manfred, MLB commissioner, pause for booze. That point that you made about the legacy of the league, I think there's one sticky part that Bob and I have talked about a lot that people forget about, which was when Jackie left the league kinda died. And my stance has always been, this is not a knock on Jackie, this is not on any of that, if Major League Baseball had subsumed one team, three teams, black folks would be in a completely different position in terms of scouting, coaching, all the people that run the inside of teams, Jackie's legacy as the one guy that broke the color barrier is kind of singled out, but there were a lot of things that happened behind that that were not so great. Oh, there is no question, and it is, guys, kind of a bittersweet story. It really was, and we spent much of last year in my black diamonds podcast, kind of exploring both the impact and ramifications of what integration did, not only to the Negro Leagues, but to African American communities across this country. To be quite frank, I don't know if black folks realized what we were losing when we lost the Negro Leagues. The Negro Leagues were the third largest black-owned business in this country, and it probably had as great an impact in terms of spawning other black-owned businesses. It was bringing those, as I defined them, as segregated, mandated black-owned businesses, a built-in clientele that essentially led those businesses to their economic heights. When we lost the Negro Leagues, we lost that catalyst, that sparked that economic development. What happens, many of those early years, they took me over to Howard University today, while I went over to Howard University to speak to a sports marketing class, and I saw the Howard Theater. The Howard Theater. Theater. Theater, because it's not theater, theater, absolutely. And I instantly could hear Buckle Neal in my mind and in my heart talking about going to the Howard Theater. And seeing Mom's Mably and all these other performers, Red Fox, all these other performers in this area, this part of D.C. that was segregated, but thriving. 18th and Vine in Kansas City. Black folks could only live within 13 blocks. Couldn't go outside and live outside the 13 blocks, but within those 13 blocks, you had everything you needed, and so much of it that others, when it came to entertainment, was coming in to get some of it. And who was at the heart of the success of 18th and Vine? The Kansas City Monarchs. Yeah, Kansas City Monarchs would open the season, and a marching band would start at 18th and Vine and march up to 22nd and Brooklyn. And behind them, 17,000 plus standing room only to go see the Kansas City Monarchs. Then they'd come back and do business with all those black-owned businesses, and those businesses were flourishing. Jackie not only breaks the color variant baseball, but he essentially ignites integration in a much broader spectrum through his integration of the game of baseball. And we then lost the Negro Leagues. And so a lot of all players were put out of business, and a lot of those black-owned businesses could no longer compete. And so it is kind of bittersweet, but this was good for the soul of our country. It moved us in ways socially we'd never dreamt possible, but it absolutely came at a cost. You could say that the Negro Leagues took one for the team. Yeah, they took one for the team. Yeah, so it's a really interesting story. And I've been involved with this museum now for 30 years. It's hard to believe that I'm only 35, but I was a child prodigy when I started. He's the best rest man in the baseball. That's what it comes down to. And I find the story as compelling and interesting today as I did 30 years ago when I walked into a little one-room office that was then the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. It is fascinating. It is absolutely fascinating. And what we're talking about tonight is just echoes why that museum in Kansas City is so vitally important. Yeah, because what stood at risk, y'all, was this story was going to die when that last Negro League left the face of this earth. We cannot allow that to happen. I tell my guests all the time, Negro Leagues Baseball Museum doesn't need to survive. It has to survive. So we don't lose this precious piece of baseball and Americana. And the story is so awe-inspiring. And so as we look at ways to continually engage people, particularly young people, and I'd be remiss if I didn't say this, the Negro Leagues are now in a video game. We're in a video game MLB The Show 23. For the first time, the Negro Leagues are included in the show. It's a big deal. It's a huge deal. A deal beyond my imagination, Wilder's imagination, because I hadn't played a video game in almost 40 years. And so I had... I thought you were 35. Yeah, well, you know, but again, that was in the womb. I was playing Atari in the womb. Okay. Uh-huh. Yeah. And so this platform is huge. And now young people are learning about the Negro Leagues. They're having a great time playing as these players. We introduced eight Negro League players in the video game, but the stories, they are absorbing these stories. And our job as an institution, the work that Ray continues to do, not only highlighting the incredible career of Biz Mackey, but the others who were there with him prior to Jackie Robinson, the work that we're doing in Kansas City with our museum, it is so important that we establish relevancy. Yes. The case for any museum, but particularly a history museum and a cultural institution like the Negro Leagues Museum, I cannot wait for young people to come to us. We have to go to them. And we have to go to them where they are, the modes and mediums in which they are accustomed to getting their information. And so this is groundbreaking, the work that we're doing now with Sony and PlayStation with the inclusion of the Negro Leagues. And I'm gonna bore you with a quick story. My board member, Eric Silden is here tonight and his wife, Lucy, joining us. And I shared the story with board members today. We had a board meeting just prior to me coming over here for the reception. And I was touring a group inside, taking a group of folks on a tour of the Negro Leagues Museum, we get on the field of legends where we have these life-sized statues of Negro League. It's awesome. They're cast in position as if they were playing a game. I think it's one of the most amazing displays in any museum, anywhere in the world. Well, you know who's on the mound? Satchel Page, the legendary Leroy Satchel Page. And I'm going through all these Satchel Page stories. And for those of you who don't know, Satchel had names for his pitches. Yes, he didn't have fastball, curveball, changeup. No, no, not Satchel. Satchel had what he called his midnight creeper. He had the two-humper. He had the bat dodger. He had the hesitation pitch. He had the long tom, the short tom, the jump ball, the treble ball, the radio ball, the wobbly ball, the dipsy dude. And he also had a pitch that he famously called his b-ball. And so I would always pose the question to my folks that I'm touring, do you know why he called it the b-ball? And when I say that, when I said that, a young white kid couldn't have been more than nine, 10 years old. He raises his hand and he looks at me and he sticks out his chest, because he's got the S. And he says, Mr. Kendrick, the reason Satchel called it the b-ball is because Satchel says, it beats where I want it to be when I want it to be there. And he was absolutely right. And I'm looking, I'm looking at amazement. And I said, man, you must have been playing the show. Right. And his father said, yes, he's been playing the show and he's been paying attention to the stories that you're sharing in this video game. That's the impact that this digital platform is having. And it may be one of the most significant undertakings that our museum has ever done, because millions of kids around the globe are falling in love with the Negro Leagues and you can rest assured, Clinton, that someday there's gonna be a kid who's going to the major leagues who will name his pitches because he saw soccer in the video game. I like that. I like that. You know what's funny about that is that I don't know that I really, I didn't think of that at first. I don't have kids. And so that wasn't the first thing I thought about it. I want to give a shout out to my man, David Bettencourt. He writes for The Washington Post, we're great friends. First thing he said was, oh my God, my son's gonna love this. Like it was his instant reaction. He said, this is how he interfaces with history. And you're exactly right. Yeah. Ray, you want to talk a little bit about what you guys actually do with your foundation? You mentioned all the other guys, but I don't know that everybody's super familiar with the actual ins and outs, what goes on. Could you expand on that a little bit? Sure, sure. So Biz Mackey Foundation, as a way of introducing the sport of baseball, bringing excitement around the sport of baseball, we share literacy resources with youth in the Houston area, across the country. There's a deficiency amongst youth in underrepresented communities, primarily between literacy by three, by third grade. And so we talk to children about the importance of literacy and learning and reading readiness. And we do it in a fun and interactive impact way through the sport of baseball. We partner with corporate to share and provide baseball related books. We bring exhibits surrounding baseball, a lot of business artifacts and that sort of thing. Kind of a show and tale. And this way, again, it leads to excitement in the sport. It's a fun and interactive way to be able to share with youth really the significance of what Negro League baseball meant to the sport of baseball. And when you start talking about, they were in Japan in the 1920s and the 30s, and they're saying, wait a minute, that was before civil rights. You mean blacks could travel the world and they could go and do all these sorts of fun things. Then it becomes so educational because a lot of things, again, a lot of youth think that things really didn't start accelerating for the black community until after civil rights. But we were making a huge impact long before then. And so that's primarily the space that we're in and it's exciting, it's fun. Biz is a part of MLB, hopefully he'll be in the next class of players. And so we'll be certainly marketing and making that a part of it. We partner also with Stratomatic that has educational learning interactive board games. And so we provide the kids with those interactive board games as a means of youth learning more about Negro League baseball and the impact that their legacy provides. Thank you. I was just curious, I don't know if the guys who are backstage with the photographs, if you could pull that picture of Josh Gibson back on the screen again, he's the player that has the big bat in his hand. Because again, there, yeah, there's Josh. There's the old Josh. That's got his jersey. We got that homestead, Gray's jersey up there with number 20 on it. And Josh Gibson was incredible. Yeah, for those of you who may not be familiar with that man in that picture, he was called the Black Babe Ruth. But there are many who saw Gibson swing that big bat of his who called Ruth, the white Josh Gibson. No, no, no, Gibson was incredible. In 1936, the great power hit and catcher hit 84 home runs in a single season. Strings of 75, 71 and 69 in a single season. Still believed to be the only man to ever hit a bar completely out of Yankee Stadium. Hit one of the polo grounds folks that they estimated to travel over 600 feet. But he wasn't just a great power hitter. He was a great hitter with power. Yeah, lifetime batting average of 354. And in head to head competition against major leagueers in countless exhibition games, hit over 420. What makes it even more remarkable, he was doing his catcher. Now, Bigs also had a lifetime batting average over 300 as well. Yeah, these guys could rake. They were great hitters. But look at that photograph. Big power for forearm, trademark rolled up, left sleeve showing off those guns. Tremendous bass on the floor. Look at the bass, absolutely. Compact swing, compact swing, big power for thighs and great eyes. Buck O'Neill would describe Josh in this manner. That he had the eyes of Ted Williams and the power of Babe Ruth rolled into one dynamic package. His outs, as we say in the sport, were loud outs. Uh-huh, the third baseman in the shortstop folks were damn near left field when Gibson came up the bat. That was the Negro League's version of a shift. Yeah, you can get killed coming up with Josh. But I want to say that, because I wanted that picture there because the homestead grays were filling up Griffith Stadium. They were out drawing the Washington Senators. That's the 1943 homestead grays. They were out drawing Major League's Washington Senators. And Clark Griffith, who owned the Senators, had toyed with the idea of signing Buck Leonard and Josh Gibson well before Branch Rickey made the move to go get Jackie Robinson. But here was the dilemma. This is still in the early 1940s. We're still in the midst of World War II. So really the timing wasn't right. But here was the dilemma for Griffith. If you go make this move to go get Leonard and Gibson, his Washington Senators instantly jumped to the forefront of contention. Likely would have won a pennant, could have probably won the World Series. They were that good. Buck Leonard playing a dazzling first base, hitting line drives all over Griffith Stadium. He's watching this. He's watching Josh Gibson hit balls where no mere mortal had ever hit them. But here's the dilemma. The homestead grays, again, were out drawing the Washington Senators. He is making money off the Nickel Leagues. He's getting a percentage of the gate and likely all of the concessions. So now you got the balance, do I be this bold, innovative and take on the establishment? Or do I keep the money? And he chose to keep the money. Yeah, he chose to keep the money. And it was also interesting. And then Ricky comes along later and he plucks Jackie Robinson away from the Kansas City Monarchs and beats Griffith to doing this. Although I'm not sure Griffith would have tried to buck the system. Let's delve into that a little bit more. Branch Ricky is a guy in baseball history that is now very famous for a lot of different reasons. People forget, though. Branch Ricky did a lot of stuff. Guy tried to start a third league, the Continental League, if you don't know that, looked that up. He was kind of a freewheeler when it came to baseball, but he's known best as obviously. By the way, raise your hands if you know where Griffith Stadium was in D.C. Okay, I'm right, Howard University Hospital. Good job, guys. Branch Ricky was, he's looked at now as this sort of frankly white savior kind of character. Could you expand a little bit on who he actually was and what the steps were towards getting Jack to Brooklyn? No, Ricky's story is interesting in his own right as well because he has been held as this saint. And I'm sure that he had some righteousness in him. But Ricky was somewhere between a saint and a devil. But aren't we all? Yeah, aren't we all? My mother on any given day would have said the exact same thing about her baby. And depending on what was going on that day. And so Ricky had, I think, a level of diabolicalness in him as it related to the Negro Leagues. He was going to come in and essentially raid the Negro Leagues of its stark talent without compensation to its owners. That was his plan. And contrary to Papa's belief, Jackie was not his first choice. The great Monty Irvin was his first choice. And Monty Irvin, folks, was a superstar player in the Negro League, played for the Newark Eagles. Played, yeah, uh-huh, and mentioned him earlier being mentored by Biz Matty. Monty Irvin, as I like to describe him, was a five-tool superstar with movie star good looks. He had everything you needed to be a star. He had just gotten back from World War II. And so he was suffering what he would admit, shell shot. We would now call it today post-traumatic syndrome. But the real reason that Monty Irvin was not the first was because of a woman named Ephemandley. Ephemandley owned the Newark Eagles. Yes, there were women who were owners, executives, and leaders in the Negro Leagues. Yeah, Hilda Bolden, Olivia Taylor, many folks. Absolutely, uh-huh. And to say that Ephemandley couldn't stand Branch Rickey might be an understatement. She didn't care for Branch Rickey. And truthfully, rightfully so. Because again, Rickey's master plan was to come in and raid this talent without compensation. So he had signed Monty Irvin. And Ephemandley was prepared to fight. She had threatened to litigate. And Rickey knew that he did not need a fight with this black woman over this black ball player, although there's controversy over her ethnicity. That's a whole other story. That'll be in part two when we come back and do part two. Black Diamonds Pie, just check it out. And so he knew he didn't need a fight with this black woman over this black ball player because you already know the other owners are gonna stand in solidarity to try and block this. So he backs off of Monty Irvin. That's when he turns his sight to Kansas City and won Jackie Roosevelt Robinson. And here's how screwed Rickey was. And certainly this is my theory. Rickey knew that J.L. Wilkinson couldn't fight back. You know why? Because Wilkie was white. Wilkie was a white man who made his entire living in black baseball. He cannot be the public face of blocking what virtually every black person in America had been waiting for, for a black man to play in the major leagues. If he does that black fan base that had been so loyal to him, they would have turned their backs on him right away and Rickey knew this. He had Wilkie stuck between that proverbial rock and hard place. And so publicly Wilkie said all the right things because he's got to protect his business interests. Has to. Primarily he is seething. And he's not seething because a black man's about to play in the major leagues, but this black man you're going to take away from me, you're going to put me out of business. He sells his interest in the Kansas City Monarchs in 1948, the year after Jackie takes the field with Brooklyn because by now the handwriting is on the wall. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when the Negro leagues are going to end. He sells his business interests to his partner, T.Y. Baird, in 1948. And the story gets even better. T.Y. Baird y'all was a card carrying Kansas City, Kansas, Ku Klux Klansman who made his living in black baseball. You can't make this stuff up, it's too good. It is too good. Yeah, no, no, no. As Buck O'Neill would say, you don't have to fictionalize Negro leagues to make it entertaining. Just tell the real story, it's entertaining enough. And I keep pitching this. Somebody, some great writer, going to come and see us in Kansas City. These stories are jumping off the wall. They're ready to be told. And there's going to be a scripted TV series on the Negro leagues. There's still ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. And if you do, please come and make old Bob the executive producer. Yeah, no, no, man. It's... Clinton, Bob said something that I wanted to share. He brought a point. I was going to ask you, could you put the slide up? Has Joe DiMaggio in the Yankees uniform along with Biz and the Giants? And I think it's a very pivotal photo. There are others that are like it. Has Barg Leonard? Yeah, maybe keep scrolling. Should be like four players together. And you'll see Joe DiMaggio in the middle. Well, please do describe him. Yeah, you may not have it. Okay, all right. The point I was going to make, it was a picture of Biz and Joe DiMaggio in Yankee Stadium in 1946, which was prior to the signing date of Jackie Robinson. And one of the things that that photo is so exemplifying of is that Negro leaguers, the white teams would actually scrimmage and play with them. They had formed friendships. I know Biz a lot with Joe DiMaggio leading up to Jackie Robinson's transition. So I don't want people to leave or go away that there's, sure, there was some disparities, but there also were some great diverse friendships that were established where they learned from one another. They grew. And I think those were very pivotal in what we would see sort of in that next phase of baseball, next chapter. The interesting thing is that it has not continued to scale at the level that it should be. And that's the real reality. That's the real travesty that in 2023, you only have 58 African-Americans in major league baseball. It's really interesting. And this has always been true. Great athletes appreciate other great athletes. That's true. Only way you can measure how good you are is by playing with and against the very best. And so you're right, there were many friendships forged and there were many major leaguers who knew that these guys could play. Ted Williams knew that they could play. And I still believe that is why Ted Williams upon his own induction into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1966 used that platform to advocate on behalf of Negro league players inclusion, where he said, I hope someday the likes of Satchel Page and Josh Gibson would be voting into the National Baseball Hall of Fame as symbols of those great stars who weren't there because they had never been given an opportunity. Absolutely. Five years later, Satchel becomes the first from the Negro leagues to be inducted. It does not happen without Ted Williams' application because we're not talking about an average Joe ball player. We're talking about a superstar ball player who was making this advocation. And that's because when they went to Latin America or other places in the Caribbean, there was no separation. We played together. And inevitably you go down and look at those lineups from those teams, the more majority, they had to pick up a litter of any other players, both major leagues and Negro leagues. There were more Negro league players playing on those teams than there were major leagues. So there was really no doubt about their abilities to play in the major leagues. It was just simply the social conditions of our time, but maybe even more prevalent, fear, fear. You see, when Jackie Robinson came up and joined Brooklyn, guess what? He took somebody's job. They took someone's job. And he took the job of a friend. And the other guys, particularly that average major leaguer was concerned. They're looking over their shoulders wondering, am I next? Because if you allow this influx of both black and Hispanic talent in, I might lose my job. Yeah. Not good enough. Black baseball is what I do all day every day. I cannot emphasize enough how important the museum is. It's not just from historical standpoint. It's not just the learning, it's a great museum. Interactive, a lot of fun stuff. It is a tremendous tool for learning, and I urge you all to get up to KCMO to see it, because... That's what you mean. The ribs on me... Well, I better not say that too loud. Ribs on me and my board member, Eric Silver. I say this in all seriousness. It'll change your life. You know how I know that? It changed mine. Questions? Anybody? We've got two mics, three. Please do participate. I know all y'all think you're pretty smart, so ask us some questions. And yeah. Or you can just raise your hand, is that it? I see a question up top. Yeah. What up? Wait for the end. You know, for me, and this is what I share with my major league athletes who come into the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, and it doesn't matter what color they are. The story of the Negro Leagues is about love of a game. Play this game because you love it. Yeah, you play it because you love it. And if you're fortunate enough, and it takes you to college, or even if it takes you to the next level to the show, that's great, but you never stop loving the game. But as I share with my major league athletes, you will never see a greater example of love of the game than you do when you walk through that museum. You see, folks, they had to love it to endure the things that they had to endure. If you can picture this, they could ride into a town, fill up the ballpark, but yet not be able to get a meal from the same fans who had just cheered them or not have a place to stay. So they would sleep on the bus and eat their peanut butter and crackers until they could get to a place that would offer them basic services. But they never allowed that to kill their love of the game. So their spirit, fellas, was okay if I've got to sleep on the bus, and if I've got to eat my peanut butter and crackers, I'm going to keep playing ball. And so, for me, what the Negro Leagues teaches us is very simple. In this country, if you dare to dream and you believe in yourself, you can do or be anything you want to be. See, they dared to dream of playing baseball. They had no idea that they were making history. They didn't care about making history. They just wanted to play balls. But the pride, the passion, the perseverance, the determination, the courage that they demonstrated in the face of adversity. And I remind our guests every day, our story is not about the adversity, but rather what they did to overcome the adversity. And that's the real story, folks. And it's a story that transcends race, it transcends age, and it transcends gender. So to me, that's the takeaway. Believing in yourself and being daring to dream about whatever it is that you want to accomplish and then stay steadfast in that belief that you can do it because the opportunities are there for you. Bob is more elegant than I am. You like baseball? I'll say the short version. If you like baseball, play baseball. Play baseball, love it. Participation is the biggest thing we don't have in terms of numbers. People talk about, oh, well, you can't get rich, don't just get to the park and play the game. I cannot tell you how much I miss being out on the dirt, picking up balls, throwing with my teammate. Like, the culture of the game is easy to learn as long as you put the time in. And if you like it, get on the field, man. It's so much fun. Welcome, yeah. I was in New York at the Jack Robinson Museum on my last Tuesday, one of it. Oh. I was at the Delfty's in Savannah. Oh, yeah. And I focused on this town. I'm also a big jazz fan, so that's where I'm at. It's right there, yeah. Yeah, I'm in New Montreal to the International Festival of Jazz. And while I'm in New Montreal, I always make a visit to the house. Where Rachel and Jack live in the summer of 46. And that house where they live, you know, I go to that house, it's a private owner that owns that house. There is a plot on the door that says, you know, this is the home where Jack lives, where Rachel lives. Nobody on the clock knows anything about the house. The house is kind of falling on, you know, there by a private owner. You know, what collaboration can the MLB and maybe the country of Canada do to bring the significance of that home to a point where folks will recognize it because in that house in the summer of 46 when Jack played for Montreal, nobody knew how successful he was gonna be. I mean, he had literally had the whole new growth race on his shoulder. On his shoulder. With him and Rachel living in that house. Yeah. The conversations and the prayers and everything that took place in that house. I think there should be an effort on the way just to let folks know, you know, how important that home was because we all knew the ensuing summer. Yeah. What was gonna take place. And you know where Clinton and I find interesting because that is a great point. We oftentimes focus on the racial hatred that Jackie was under and it was tremendous. It was tremendous. But think about the pressure that he was carrying because black folks were counting on him. Yeah. Black folks were, the pressure was immense on both sides of the ledger. He was carrying 21 million black folks on his back when he walked across those lines because if he fails, an entire race of people would have failed. That's an enormous amount of pressure for anyone man to bear. Branch Rickey had really no choice but to send him to Montreal because he would have been crucified in Florida. So those of you don't know, that was the point in between the Negro Leagues and the big leagues, the international league and he had a Homer in his, the game was in New Jersey, I believe, and George Schuba is a guy who if you look him up, he did something that was unremarkable but was very remarkable at the time which is when Jackie crossed the plate, he shook his hand. Which you think now is like, okay, big deal but like at the time, that was a huge deal. So much so that there is a statue of it in Youngstown, Ohio where Schuba's from. But you're right. I didn't know the house was in such disrepair. I didn't know that. And so maybe there is a collaborative effort that we can do in trying to get some interest in preserving that house. It's always a little bit challenging when it's a private homeowner that has it but that home certainly should be preserved and Jackie and Mrs. Robinson oftentimes talked about how well they were treated there in Canada. And so Canada plays and Montreal specifically play a great role in this barrier breaking moment that we witnessed April 15th, 1947. And that should not be forgotten as well. It is certainly a source of pride amongst Canadian baseball fans that Jackie is set there to prepare for this insurmountable task that he was about to take on. Dear editors, I'm coming to Montreal if you're watching. Just a quick question. Did each team in the Negro leagues have dedicated radio announcers? And also coverage in the newspapers in their particular cities. Can you tell me the difference between the black newspapers and the white newspapers and what kind of historical stuff you had out of that? The coverage difference was like black and white. It really was. Easy enough. It really was. Had it not been for the black press, we would know very little about the Negro leagues. They were the primary voice. I raised the point in Kansas City as great as the Kansas City Monarchs were. There were very little about them in the archives of the Kansas City Star and the Kansas City Call, which still produces a weekly African-American paper to this day, was the primary voice. But it's like the same thing could be said for the Amsterdam News, the Chicago Defender, the Pittsburgh Courier, which essentially was USA Today before we ever knew about USA Today. And so you're right. The black press was so instrumental in being that voice. These great black writers who were really ones that were accounting for the Negro leagues now as it related to radio, not a lot. Jaco Maxwell was recognized as the first black, well, number one sportscaster, and he did do a little bit of black baseball radio in that New York, New Jersey area. Sadly to say it wasn't a whole lot of that, unfortunately. He was a race and their fight song was quite cool. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so it's completely counterintuitive to everything that Griffin was, you know? But again, this cream rising to the top, he's watching this. He is watching this happen and unfold in his ballpark with Buck Leonard and Josh Gibson. And I know we're up against Tarantime, so I know we got to come back and do part two. I will add something quickly. I will add one last thing that is a historical footnote that is worth noting. The reason why the Minnesota Twins exist, because the Griffiths did not want black people coming to baseball against them. That's a fact, and that gives you an indication. This was in 1976. This happened. So just give you an idea of how far we've come and not come. And so we followed the Minnesota anyway. Exactly. Want to thank everybody for showing up? This has been great. Thank you.