 Welcome back on the chaos zone stage. I hope you had a great day so far and We're happy to we're happy to host a talk by Good evening and welcome to the conference of Wikileaks and Seyad Manimola Magun. This conference will be translated from English by Rémi Hou and informant Seyad. Please address your feedback with the word Seyad. These three languages on Twitter, on the Mastodon. We hope that this experience will please you. So this is Tandim Ramalou who is part of Wikileaks and who has been in contact with Seyad. And so this is the continuation of a presentation he presented before for all the details. He will explain to you and so welcome Andy and we are happy to hear what you can tell us. All the recent details of your conference. Thank you. Good evening. I called this, I called this when Wikileaks entered the Seyad Cudo operation. So as a reminder, the community of hackers. One of the things of the hacker ethics is that information wants to be read. I have a little bit of something about you who is someone of the founders. They are talking about hacking the society via the freedom of information. So I have two parts. The first part, I'm going to talk a little bit about the context of what I'm going to talk about. So what happened around Wikileaks in the context of the Seyad and the government of the United States. And I had two presentations about similar subjects. So that was still the last real congress. It was the last real congress. I talked about the tactical aspects of surveillance. You're going to see an image that I copied from there. And the last one, I talked a little bit about the Seyad tactics. I talked about the tactics of intimidation. That's what happened to me and several people who were watching me. And now, this year, at the end of September, there's an article that has been released. There's been news. So there have been people who previously worked for Newsweek. And now they're working for them. The 26 September article that the London shootout inside the secret war plans again. So there's kidnapping of the assassins in London. And so there's a link to what I did. And it confirms a lot of my last conference. But it also gives a framework. For example, I mean, there's some misinformation that poisons this article, which otherwise is very practical. It's very good. So what I'm going to do today is to rebuild it to frame it again and to help everyone understand what happened. So the article distinguishes the time frame of the... Distinguishes the time between... So in four moments in time, in the interactions between WikiLeaks and the Seyad. So at the beginning, before Snowden, before 2013, the Obama administration, there was already... Even if there were the diplomatic cables, the Afghanistan War, Iraq, published by WikiLeaks, they had the point of view that as some entities published in a journalistic framework, there was not much to do. And since he talks about freedom, freedom of expression, freedom of the press. So that's also the freedom of the press. After Snowden, after the fact that Snowden left Hong Kong to go somewhere else, he went to Moscow with the help of the editorial member of WikiLeaks. So by protecting journalistic sources, the German government saw things a little differently. He didn't really do it, but they started to collect more data on WikiLeaks. So we're not talking about legal research, they just have to look at it. So it's also in the context of Snowden, it was not WikiLeaks who had been given by Edward Snowden to make reports that were not revealed, that had been given to Guardian or Spiegel and others, but they tried to give another name to WikiLeaks, so journalists, to the information traders to try to contour the protection given by the United States. It wasn't that far from that. At least I don't have knowledge of the process, but I know that all those who have been, who have been part of the publication, it was even people who said that the Indians were forced to destroy the computers they worked on. In 2016, the next step, the next change in the relationship between WikiLeaks and the United States, was the publication of the e-mail of the DNC, the president of the Democrats, like WikiLeaks. He said that the Russians had delivered this data and that their publication was to try to break the interests of the United States, so it wasn't the first moment where we could look from our European perspective, so it was e-mails that were leaked, that were obtained in a certain way, but WikiLeaks published them. The discussion was about how the President had treated Bernie Sanders, in which way Hillary Clinton treated Bernie Sanders as another candidate for the Democratic Party. Visibly, she didn't win the nomination. We could say that it was the exhibition in the interests of the United States, but the CIA didn't think that it was to break the interests of the Americans, this publication. I think it's important that we distinguish how we evaluate this thing and how the American government puts it in other categories. And so it's even more weird. From 2017, we have the Fold 7, so these are the documents from the CIA. Mike Pompeo was in charge of it. Mike Pompeo, in fact, I already talked about it enough, I don't want to repeat it. So it was also, someone was personally responsible, it happened under his leadership. But the aspects of the framework, we'll look at it in detail. What happened this year was that a key witness of the acquisition made it public that actually he lied to the FBI to the FBI that they had made a part of the evidence. We can't verify. He even was imprisoned for his illegal acts. So it would be enough to, he's dangerous for society, so he was imprisoned. And so it's a strange thing in a country like Iceland where people are generally very calm, but the article came after the publication on the publication of the information on this evidence-making. So the Yau's archive was much higher than about evidence of the evidence. It was much more discussed than on the proof-making. But another aspect that was in the Yau's article was, I think, the way I see it, and I've talked to a lot of people, the Yau's article was about the Russians who were in front of the embassy of Ecuador, preparing to evacuate Russian into preparing to snipe other Americans. So it's a little bit surprising when you look at, when you look at how the Russian government annoys the United States and the US government. So every time we talk about the Russians leaving, it changes everything. So in coordination with the Ecuadorian government, we found by becoming first an Ecuadorian citizen, by becoming situational Ecuadorian, he could have left the UK because of the diplomatic voids with the associated security and the immunity. The article does reveal some aspects of what happened. But the article reveals some aspects of what happened. For example, the kidnapping plan, the assassination plan, there were plans to kill him in the embassy, to poison him, to kidnap him. And these extreme activities didn't happen. And there were doubts at the White House and the committee of the House of Representatives of the Senate. And in any case, it didn't happen. Yeah, we had some wild things going on, but yeah, it's weird. But according to the article, the well court outlaw censors buying on Wicked XSSAs, dealing of electronic devices, then there were search in electronic devices and the article showing discreet that actions were made to stop the discord through the members of the group. And the CCC, working in other group organizations and other groups. Personally, I wouldn't always be able to distinguish if an action came from the CIA or if it was really just a dynamic of ordinary groups, if people had a natural attitude. So I would prefer to pay attention to this kind of statement according to which disputes in the group would be created by the CIA. However, they also talked at some point about the context of Julian and Wicked XSSA target of corruption which would have changed the context of Collect on Wicked XSSAs, but I can't really go into detail because I don't have the necessary information. On the interference with Julian's way of getting out of the embassy, it's a pretty critical moment. We have identified the period between the 16th and the 26th of December, 2016. So around the 16th of December, Julian and Wicked XSSA officially became diplomats, and all the procedures were finished and around the 21st of December, everything was done. He had a diplomatic passport, etc. This meeting of the 21st was at least as far as we know from the witnesses of the security service who later revealed to the court they had been instructed on behalf of the CIA to do other things than to protect the embassy but to spy on Julian, so this meeting on the 21st was extremely important to the Americans. Now let's see how it ended with the pressure on the Ecuadorian government around the 26th where they stopped this plan because the United States knew and so they hoped they would get out. They knew in which car they were going to get out so they simply said they were no longer a diplomat. The pressure on the United States. So in this event I made a small matrix which is absolutely incomplete. There are many things that are missing for legal reasons, and there are things that are a little too bizarre. For example, the United States would never break the European laws. No, it's not the kind of thing they do, of course they do. Be careful to respect the law, but we have events that are still funny and that still happen in our image. On the Saturday where the English and the Spaniards were to see Julien just to prepare the 21st meeting they sent the production service against fire and in the meeting I'm coming to that and we have this observation that every day at 7 o'clock there was a quarter of Ford with sometimes two people, sometimes three people who were in front of the embassy waiting for instructions. We have other things going on that are going on in these hours. I've selected three events so we're going to talk about them in a few minutes. The first is this excincter that we see there and in the image on the right, we see the black machine underneath and there were small magnetic boxes with a microphone that was not only listening to the Americans who were outside. Finally this company that comes from London Iceland Fire Protection Limited someone who comes who goes to all the parts of the embassy to look at the excincters with intensive discussions with the employees and David Morales the owner of UC Global who was there to talk to these people and to mention to say that he also wanted to look at all the parts so we don't know exactly in the last detail but the 18th there is this company in English that comes and it's a little bit huge and I think there will be many other embassies from other countries who would like to know if they were also seen by these people something else in the night of the 24th or 25th of December so so the morning of Christmas we have three people sitting in a car and on the right someone is reading the briefing notes I'll show you the video doesn't work I can't show you the video today I don't have the CIA but the guy in the back is reading the briefing notes and we were able to read part of what they had printed what these briefing notes say this page it was what would happen if we lost the camera it was the Swiss process to establish if the surveillance cameras of the embassy didn't deliver any more images and so the people who are in France there were people with guns there were policemen with guns so they entered if a car tried to pass they could crash so there are several keys that I want to put it's something called GS7 it can be another pass for the CIA MET is the Metropolitan Police it's quite normal in England and they also talked about the Kudo operation so we looked up to Kudo and Kudo is it's a friendship so we have to we think it was a joint operation American and British but what it doesn't say are the legal implications because it could it could be one of the it breaks it goes against the Vienna Convention which is which is it means that we don't have the right to watch an embassy never no cameras, no microphones and as an outside state so I create the face and watch it's already something that is but that the police had access to it at this video surveillance it will probably have legal pursuits in the next months or next weeks the third event it was on the last day on the last day there are two police officers on a small police car on a small police car so we asked ourselves what was going on there being prepared, this is here the site conference room is about in the area where the the conference room is at the level of the hard-earned bag the British police was also in the scene outside so what is going on with this sequence is to see if there were violations of the Vienna Convention and observing patterns and trying to see those patterns and trying to observe the motifs of the operations to compare it with the actions of the CIA on Wikileaks but also to see if other journalists other governments were also targeted in a similar way so this brings me to the second part of my presentation and I try to first invite you to a little reflection as some of you can know Julian Assange presented the Wikileaks project in 2009 if I remember and it was a project of the Hacker community which was very welcome since it combined sharing information which always was the spirit of the Hacker community with questions of journalism of democracy and the question of having a well-informed society with this strange concept of this information and a well-informed society that's really well-defined the other question is what we've been doing in the Yahuatika and what we're now a step by step what does it tell us about about the reactions of the American government like Pompeo, the pursuits, etc how compatible are they with a democratic society based on a well-informed electoral system of people who make decisions based on knowledge and the fact of knowing what's going on is a bit disturbing so here's my little ideas and then questions to the audience so what can we do and should we do this ideas of mine we could of course hope that the United States, the government ends up understanding the deep democratic values they attack when they attack at Sanja, Wikileaks so in theory we could hope that the self-regeneration of the democratic society could take care of that and that they realize that they attack directly the democracy and that journalists write to the public so the second idea would be to dissuade the CIA so it's possible that I said it before but I don't want to start to continue without budget, without mission, without operation and the question is how should a democratic government work as long as there's an intelligence and how can a government continue if an intelligence agency has absolutely all the information on all the subjects and then the third idea which is a bit unison is how can we vaccinate people these entities, these organizations to make them understand that it's really important the right to inform the public by publishing the information of the government of the companies, etc. and they could instead play a role by informing the public by publishing their documents and so this is really the right to inform the public so how can we do that and so here's my question one to address to the audience we should have around 20 minutes so guys, how do we get Jonas Sange out of jail so how do we get Jonas Sange out of jail how do we stop the criminalization of journalism how do we stop the criminalization of journalism and how do we stop the criminalization of journalism and what makes public access to information How do we ensure a value-driven community? Everybody knows that the CCC had a community that was governed by values. Then came at some point the party, the event, and the hedonism aspects all together, and we had a great fun time. But I'm not sure that we also took care of ensuring that we are a value-driven community. And we know that CCC, we like to meet together, but are we sure that we really had values shared? Some kind of atmosphere between those who work in the IT security industry, and those who have this little atmosphere between the community of education and the community of information security, which is not really the spirit of the community of a society informed by the CCC. You don't have to allow the CIA as the most crassest entity. It starts with the so-called Open Technology Fund. I mean, we had various years the ability to observe how the TORP project had its issues. But it's been a few years since the government used our community in certain aspects, like for example, using public funds. And we haven't seen what the government is doing. In fact, we have to make sure that the government funds are not only in the interest of government, but also in the debate. And I think it already gives ideas on what could be wrong if the government starts to give money to the project of so-called hackers. So yes, that's my question to you. How do we get Julian out of prison? How can we protect our society? How can we avoid corrupting our society by the government's money or our ethics? And how can we make sure that the American governments don't take us back by hand? All right, thank you very much, Andy, for your presentation. Let's see how it's going to work. Thank you also for your questions. Thank you for your questions to everyone. All right, in the meantime, to fix this video, I'm going to try to repair this video and the video in 33 seconds. But you can start to take questions. Sure, yeah. And yeah, so let's say to the audience, please put your answers to the questions in the chat. I'm going to follow them as well as I can. And I hope we'll have a good discussion. I hope it's going to be a little limited because it would be easier to interact with each other in a concrete presence. But let's see. But first of all, maybe, Andy, if you have the capacity, can you take a question from the web? Then the question would be, how did you obtain the pictures from the embassy? Well, these are legal analyses, so they had to be done. I'm personally, I can put the video if you want. Well, I'm myself accusing, well, I'm myself accusing, personally, the government, a Spanish company, of spying on me as well as some of my colleagues. So I helped the lawyers to let their evidence, so it's digital evidence, that they had to do a legal examination. So this video was provided to those who were affected by illegal activities, by U.C. Global and others. All right. OK. There is also the question of the pictures of the people inside who are part of the video. Is it, I'm sorry, I don't see what is being broadcast? I don't see what we're seeing. Can you, can you see on the, yes. So this is the full video where you see the guys reading the briefing. Zoom in a little bit and so on. And, yeah, the question was, where did you get it? The question is, where did you get these pictures? But you answered that, you already answered it with the first answer. But these are not answers to my question, but what do we have to do? We have one line of feedback, for example, how to get Julia, how can we get Julia out of the room? We can ask our foreign minister. Chefsache, so it's something for the chefs, so the chefs. So we could try to force our chefs. We have a new foreign minister, green minister, diplomacy minister, who is a fan of the United States, of relations between the United States and Germany. So I'm not sure what the history of the U.S. Constitution is. And I'm not certain that it's the same as us. But I think there's a lot of work to be done on it. The green party was, I mean, the green party. They also wanted to do society for the human rights. So yes. It's a possibility. All right. OK. There's also a question. Are you a? Is that a question? Is that you're still under surveillance? Well, I have taken some legal measures, legal and technical measures. The German authorities have evidence I provide that I provided. They are trying to analyze. It's not necessarily realistic to assume that the Americans are not going to continue to look at it to those who are on the WikiLeaks and Assange. And so those who finance it, finance the publications and others. So I don't think the Americans are losing interest. But for now, they seem to behave a little better. Especially after the Yahoo article, where it was very visible for the German authorities, what is going on. So the article has helped. It's just that some aspects of the article were shit and misinformation. So I just wanted to simplify it. May I ask you to maybe also bring up this slide with the question? I think this will help to spark a bit of discussion also. All right, thank you. And another answer, how to... So another proposition, how to get Julien out of prison, continue to talk about it to the public. I don't know what that means, actually. Organize articles, write comments, publish articles called the Ministry of Justice, communicate, communicate, continue to inform. Let me briefly try to interact with another gave suggestion. So I think it's well known that in Germany, in France and in a few countries, there are really campaigns associated in the last months for Julien and so on. And with events and so on. And a little bit in English, but in two aspects. But English is a little bit difficult in two ways. They don't really have this constitution that would guarantee the rights. They don't have constitutional rights. They have similar things, but it's not as clearly defined as a democratic system. So it's all very complicated. So even the freedom of the press is a little complicated. So another aspect is that the British government has quite a few people who say that the U.S. government does what the U.S. government does. And in this interpretation, we can't prevent the British government to deliver Julien Assange to the US. And Germany and other European countries and Germany and other European countries have a really different history. And for example, if Julien Assange was in Germany, we know that there would probably be some problems, but the situation would be different. The question how the so-called older or the continental Europe that is now even more ignored after a beer exit from the Brits can have any... to Julien and Wikileaks in our own community that there was quite a time frame when the reputation, the character assassination had to concern that actually he was seen as a persona non grata, more or less. There was also a financial assassination. We killed his character. That's why he was a little persona non grata even at home for a while. So it seems very difficult to bring meaning into this discussion. So as long as there is the military of military surveillance, there is also a certain aspect of revenge in the Yahu article that basically killed Julien as a symbol to show that you shouldn't reveal the secrets of the United States. So it's a little bit more difficult to initiate a better discussion with the government of the United States. Related to that, our answer we got was, for example, how to stop criminalization of journalism and other questions is vote for the people. Well, it probably can help for some things. What comes to my mind in this and also other prosecutions very often there are some ancient laws involved so that people can get into justice. For example, Julien is an act on espionage. So what the Americans are doing is a great secret jury that could have even more information about Julien than what was put in the extradition papers for the United States, but it already accuses of violating the act of espionage against the extradition. So we didn't say that it was aimed at someone else but to reveal secrets to the American public and to the public of other countries and that's what they call espionage. It is, however, even more more problematic than an American journalist could have the protection of the first amendment, which is the protection of the freedom of speech because he is not an American citizen, he doesn't have that protection. So they export a little bit of their law so on the one hand he violated a law but it doesn't give the protection of the American legal system and it's a little bit, in fact, calling it a hypocrisy is way too nice. It's really, it's very back-top. Okay. Okay. Should we, should we try to maybe like the espionage act or remove the espionage, remove this espionage act? I absolutely agree. We should open the CIA, we should cancel the espionage act. I think that a part of our community will need to become lobbyists, lawyers. They will need to see better communication with the American hackers to see if they can also have, gain a political conscience and to be actually stopped developing technology to go into the development of society to make sure that in the future we will have the right to know what is done in our name by the government. So, for example, I, I remember a couple of years ago, I don't know whether it was I don't know if it was 2013 or later where we also had a conference at Congress about post-surveillance, for example, of the German post-surveillance I think it was the 70s in the 70s where we had the the NATO troop, I don't know because it's but there was a verbal German German government said that the Germans of the NATO were part of the NATO of the NATO but they were not afraid they would have the same things as before under the Allied laws and it's only after this information after after 15 journalists found something after it was revealed the government had to say yes we want to stop this and now officially, it's not the case it's not really over it's not really over because Germany is a member of the NATO and just to say the revelations of false heaven the WikiLeaks and to see the modules of the CIA they developed to make a software, a 3D a manipulation software to make seem like a malware software came from a certain a certain country or from a certain a certain just to make believe that an attack came from Russia, China, Iran, Afghanistan everywhere so if you look at the news in the last years we had all these attacks it was always China, Iran Russia, North Korea but but the discussion that could be to have the tools to to make seem operations under a flag to create a scenario where as a NATO member we are looking we look like military countries because the media was so poisoned by the stories of SEGALA SEGALA SEGALA who tried to kill us and I think it's a little dangerous as as a technical community we didn't pay more attention to avoid the media to create this image of enemies and to create an atmosphere where the war between countries seems possible again and I am very suspicious and we as a community have to talk about it this technical knowledge we don't use it for a political gain by keeping information what I should mention is that we only have 2 minutes but I I will be able to pop out in the whistleblower tent in the virtual world so if I hope that you will find that you want to see me go see it it's in the whistleblower tent once again what's the name of the whistleblower tent it's whistleblower tent or whistleblower village so go in the whistleblower tent go in the whistleblower village after this presentation and one last question is it possible to to carry out the human rights in front of the European courts of the European Union in theory it could stop its extradition but only if the specific criteria is to avoid this extradition and there are specific aspects where we could possibly go in front of only if the specific criteria are and if the English government will buy it after the Brexit and the political atmosphere it could be a little bit difficult the human rights is not part of the European Union so it doesn't have the effect that the English are not part of the Union but it doesn't change this friendship between the English and the Americans so the atmosphere of the Americans doesn't seem to be very sensitive the British government is not very sensitive to what comes from Europe so it's rather bad all right so yeah thank you thank you for your presentation all those who listened to me all those who want to talk with you are on the stage so the next will be reproducible building it will not be translated by Astro so thank you for your attention and good evening