 Hi everybody, I'm Ed Baker and I'm proud to be your host producer on the Addiction Recovery Channel, otherwise known as ARC. For those of you just tuning in for the first time, ARC is a show that's been designed and is devoted actually to raising public consciousness regarding substance use disorder and this brain disease that we call addiction. The purpose of the show really is to create compassion, to create empathy, so that this particular population can get the kinds of medical, psychotherapeutic and support services that they need in order to live healthy and productive lives. It's my great pleasure and honor today to host my guest, Thomas J. Donovan, otherwise known as TJ, our state's current Attorney General. Welcome to the show TJ. Thanks for having me, Ed. Thank you for being here. Absolutely. I'd like to start with a couple of facts. One fact being that TJ is the 26th Attorney General here in Vermont. He was elected almost exactly one year ago in November of 2016, he was well into his first year of a two-year term. He's one of four Democratic attorneys general in the history of Vermont and he comes to the position following a 10-year history as state's attorney for Chittenden County during which he had a distinguished career. One of his most outstanding accomplishments was the development of the Rapid Intervention Community Court, which is a special project, a very progressive project to deal with people who have committed nonviolent crimes that were, in fact, driven either by mental health or substance use disorders. This is a very progressive program. I guess that's really what drives my first question, TJ. What do you think it is about your progressive philosophy, your worldview when it comes to these particular populations that resonates so deeply and so widely with the population here in Vermont? If I'm not mistaken, you received 66% of the vote in your election, so it was a landslide. Well, thanks for reminding me of that. I think for me, and I say this often, I grew up in this community. I grew up in Burlington. I went to public schools, graduated from public schools. That was a great benefit to me because it exposed me to a lot of different folks. When you end to be perfectly blunt about it, I was pretty much a normal kid who made my share of mistakes, got into probably more of my share of trouble, but I knew that I belonged. I knew that I was part of a community. I knew that I was part of a big family. I had a sense of belonging, which is really important. You talk about compassion and empathy, and having that sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself is, I don't think people realize how powerful that is, and I had it. When I became state's attorney and frankly when I was a deputy prosecutor, I dealt with a lot of folks who were involved in the criminal justice system that I knew. I grew up here, knew them, if I didn't know them, I certainly knew somebody who knew them, or I knew where they were from. My experience of having grown up and engaged in those same formative experiences that they did and at some point in time, our past diverted. They didn't divert because I was better. They probably diverted for a whole set of complex reasons, one being opportunity, two resources, three role models if you will, all that frankly I had and looking back I know others didn't. So when you see folks in the criminal justice system that you grew up with, that you knew, you know they're not bad people. And then on top of that, to have insight, 20 years after the fact, 10 years after the fact, that a lot of these folks didn't have the resources, came out of some pretty tough backgrounds, didn't have the opportunities I had, I just didn't think they should have been punished as severely or as harshly as many of them were. And in my opinion, we've marginalized a whole subset of our population, the name of public safety, mostly the poor, and it hasn't worked. And then you add on these issues of addiction, you add on these issues of mental health, and you get a perfect storm. And so for me, I just felt strongly about believing in people who I grew up in, grew up with, who I went to school with, who I played basketball with, that they deserved a fair shot, and they deserved an opportunity, the same opportunity that I received, and really believed that that was no better, no different. It just happened to be a matter of circumstance to be perfectly blunt about it. Yeah, and that's really clear, and that would be the perfect reason why people would resonate with you so deeply, because it's so clear that you're one of us, you're one of them. And your piece about people not being bad, a lot of times people are seen as being bad or criminal when their behavior really is a symptom of something that runs a little bit deeper. So I can feel your connection to all Vermonters, it's palpable. Having said that then, I'd like to know what your feelings are about this present fentanyl crisis here in Vermont. We're seeing it in every county, on every street corner, every day. What are your feelings about that? I know that you were instrumental in crafting legislation, the Good Samaritan Law, to make Naloxone common in Vermont. What are your feelings about what's happening today? Well, again, this comes down to saving people's lives. And I think, again, understanding and reinforcing that people who are addicted to heroin, to opiates, and how using fentanyl extremely dangerous, incredibly toxic and deadly, as we know, their lives have value. And for those of us that are in public safety, it's very simple for me, our job is to do everything we can to save people's lives. So I do believe all first responders, including all police, should carry Naloxone. Hundreds if not thousands of Vermonters, lives have been saved as a result of Naloxone. I do believe that. And look, getting sober is hard. And I know it's frustrating. I talk to folks, people who are on the front lines who get frustrated because they say, hey, I was there last week and I administered Naloxone and this person's life was saved. And now I'm coming back a second time. And now I'm coming back a third time. And there's a degree of frustration. And I recognize and I acknowledge that frustration from people on the front line, particularly those first responders. But in spite of that frustration, we have to understand that number one, we respect the work and we have to value the work our first responders do. They should be adequately compensated. They should be protected. Their families should be taken care of because they put themselves in harm's way. But we can't lose sight of the fact that the job is to save people's lives. And I do think when we're talking about an overdose, it shouldn't be. You talk about the Good Samaritan. For me, it's not about, and this was really kind of the basis of that law, that if we focus, if we shift the focus, and I think this is symbolic of what's going on in the criminal justice system at a systems level, if we shift the focus from getting people in trouble to saving people's lives, I think we might have a more effective system because in the past, really again, the basis of that Good Samaritan law was when there's an overdose, what do people do? They get scared that they're going to get in trouble, that they perhaps gave their friend some drugs that they're now ODing on. And they don't call 911. They flee. They run. They're scared. They don't want to get in trouble. And the message that we wanted to send was we're not condoning drug use or dispensing drugs. That's not what we're condoning. But what the message was, this is about saving lives. We can figure out kind of the responsibility afterwards. But job number one is to save people's lives. Every life has potential. That's what we should be focused on. And I think if we remember that, that should guide us in sound public policy to continue to reform our criminal justice system. I think we've done a lot of good work in Vermont. We've got more work to do. You know, we look at this issue of addiction and we get angry with people. And I know it's frustrating. I know that. But that's not a reason to incarcerate and to punish. We're angry and upset with them. They're not necessarily a threat to us. And so as you know, this is complicated because you talked to somebody whose house is robbed or burglarized or his car is frustrating. And that's not again condoning criminal acts. I've sent my share of folks to jail when I thought it was appropriate for public safety purposes. But I think if we can create a system that is based on public health where we can use science and get away from this kind of arbitrariness of the criminal justice system to inform our judgment about who's truly a threat to us. Well, that's fine. Public safety comes first. But who's sick? Who needs help? And then to make sure that we have the assets in the community, which frankly we don't, to get them into treatment. I was at an event last night that really was a heartbreaking story from a mother whose child suffered from mental illness, depression, and seemed to be suicidal. And this mom talked about being at the hospital all day and having no beds in the community in which her child could go to. And this feeling of absolute helplessness to protect her child. We get an obligation here to build that infrastructure when we talk what a safe and vibrant community is for everybody. We get to make sure we take care of the most vulnerable. And in my opinion, people who are sick and when we talk about mental illness, we talk about addiction, they're sick. We get an obligation to take care of them and to treat them as they are, which is sick. And I'm not sure we've achieved that because I think you and I both would agree that stigma still attaches to those who are in recovery, those who are actively using, and those who are mentally ill. And oftentimes, they're all wrapped in together. So we got more work to do. Absolutely. Loud and clear. The great, very, very strong message. I mean, I for one, and I'm sure you are proud of Vermont. We're leaders in the nation. The Nalaxon laws, the Habinspoke system. It is a model. We use the general public. People seem to be marshaling behind this idea of addiction as a disease. Trying to speak in positive terms. We use terms like substance use disorder rather than drug abuse. Trying to raise consciousness and give it the medical kind of definition rather than a punitive kind of definition. Your message is loud and clear. I have Nalaxon in my car, by the way. I went to my local drug store, got myself a nasal kit, just in case I want to be ready to save a life if I possibly can. You mentioned people sometimes having to be revived multiple times. The general public really doesn't understand that that is proof positive that this is a powerful brain disease. This is a symptom. That someone would go back and engage in life-threatening behavior again really against their own will, is that compulsion. It's not really a choice. You hear that a lot. It's a compulsion. It's a brain disease. You mentioned that the crime is also associated with addiction, and it is. It's one of the symptoms, symptomatic behavior. What about people who, there's a little bit of attention, or a lot of attention being placed on people who are incarcerated for committing crimes but have substance use disorder or specifically opioid use disorder? What about them? Well, I want to answer that question. I just want to first follow up on your point about people who are so sick that they know they go back and use again and knowing that they'll go sick and even die. I've always looked at this disease as, for me it was always, and my thinking has evolved, but for me it was always, how do you put a needle into your arm? How do you put a needle into your arm? The thought repulses me. But in talking to folks who've done it, you're absolutely right. They talk about how desperate they are, how sick they are, and how much they need that fix, that snorting it doesn't do it. And it's not a rational decision. And you're absolutely right about that. And I say that from a perspective of, not science, I say it from a perspective of talking to folks who've done it. Real Vermonters who struggle with this disease. People who are afraid of needles. And a remarkable, just a remarkable thing to hear somebody say that to you when you ask them, how can, and me passing judgment, how can you do that? You know, for me it repulses. And it really reinforces the point that they're just so sick and desperate. It's not a rational decision at all. Folks who are in jail, who suffer from addiction. Number one, I struggle with the idea that folks should be in jail who are in there as a result of their addiction. And this is not to excuse personal responsibility. But I think for real serious, we need to make sure that we have, again, the assets in the community, inpatient rehab, no waiting lists. And we do, the Huppins folks is a great model. It's a great model. We need to do more. But if you're in jail, my position is very clear. You should receive medication. Because you're incarcerated, you are not entitled to medically assisted treatment. But if you're outside, you are. You know, if people are, and here's the thing about jail. Say this all the time to folks. Say this as a prosecutor. Here's the thing about jail. They're going to get out. The vast majority of people in jail are going to get out. And it's in our collective best interest as a community to make sure that people who are incarcerated have a successful reentry back into our community. That's what's in the interest of public safety. Talk about housing, talk about education, talk about jobs. None of that matters unless they're healthy. Because as you know, if somebody is using, they're not making those rational decisions. They are a risk to themselves. They're a risk to the community. So I do think that we should have medically assisted treatment available to folks in jail. Look, the Department of Corrections has done a good thing. They're extending the use to 120 days. Frankly, I think we should be looking at. And my understanding of the policy is that you have to be currently in treatment on the outside in order to have the treatment continued while you're incarcerated. And that's fine. I support that. I also think we should consider starting treatment for people in jail. I think jail can have a powerful effect on people to really do some self-examination. And perhaps that's an opportunity for people to say, I'm ready. I'm ready to make a change. They may come to that conclusion, but unless the services and the medicine is there. And so we've got to continue to push the argument to expand the use of treatment. We have to continue to make the argument that prevention is really, I think, the game changer in this debate that I don't think we talk enough about. When we talk about babies being born, opiate addicted, we should be outraged in this state. We should be outraged. I think any pregnant woman who is using a big believer in these nurse family partnerships where you send a nurse to somebody's home, a message of wellness, a message of health, prenatal care, you get a healthy baby, you get a healthy mom. And I think the national studies where these programs do exist show a great reduction in childhood abuse. And the other thing, Ed, that I've become more educated about and frankly a believer in is this idea of adverse childhood experiences and how important those early years are to brain development and how important they are when you're growing up in a family where you have this stress, where there is that issue of addiction, where there's that issue of perhaps domestic violence, that issue of just poverty where you don't know if you're going to eat or not, if you're going to be safe. And I think as you know, the science is pretty clear that that stress becomes toxic on that child and the development of their brain. Leads to higher rates of mental health issues later in life. Higher rates of addiction actually lowers life expectancy. All on issues that happen in those early years, zero to three, zero to five, we need to be making investments in those homes. That's the game changer. I couldn't agree with you more and it's so refreshing to hear that you think this way and that your attitudes are being shaped this way. Childhood resilience I think is the key to the future. The research is showing that stress, or toxic stress as you've mentioned actually affects the way that genes direct cell development in organs such as the brain. And that's where the impulsivity in adolescence can be a result of the brains not developing along healthy lines. One of the impulsive decisions being handling stress or handling tension or handling problems by taking psychoactive chemicals. The other thing that I hear you saying clearly is that you understand that this is a multi-generational project that we're undertaking here. That this is going to be going out 20, 30 years. And it's the children and their children's children that need to live differently that the demand for drugs needs to change. And the way we do that is helping children to learn how to grow up and make healthy decisions and have the resources available to them to enjoy life. Absolutely. Listen, it's about the next generation. It's about kids and that's why the prevention is so important but you've got to have the resources and you're right about multi-generational. And I think we've got to be honest about it. We've got to put political correctness to the side and again being that prosecutor in court over 10 years and frankly seeing generations, prosecuting generations of families you've got to ask yourself the question why. I don't think criminal behavior is genetic but lack of opportunity certainly creates these circumstances where you take away hope, where you take away opportunity where you have kept people impoverished. In the other part you talk about resiliency, I'm a big believer in that and the power of positive relationships whether it's with your own parents or with others outside of your family to build resiliency and to overcome adversity. I was lucky as I said, there was nothing great about me growing up but I was surrounded certainly by a family but also by a larger extended family and even a larger community. I got a lot of second chances, I got a lot of second chances by a lot of people and that made all the difference in the world to me and that's a powerful thing when you think about that and that's never left me. I do know, I do see that in you and I've heard a little bit about you and I do think I've been told that you get your sense of justice from your dad and your passion from your mom. You know, my dad had an incredible influence on my life. He was a solo practitioner, he was a lawyer and worked on the top of College Street and what I would say was a street lawyer in the sense that he'd take anybody that walked in off the street but he loved helping people. He didn't care much for bureaucracy he didn't care much for titles he cared about people, cared about the underdog. If somebody was down on their luck, my father was for them. It was just, I think, by instinct and this sense of empathy and compassion and he loved and he was able to find, I think, the humor in it all which is a special trait when you think about it. No matter how bad things are, if you're able to find the humor in it that's a pretty powerful defense mechanism. That ability to laugh, that ability to overcome the ability, I think, to put things in perspective and to keep going. Look, he didn't make a lot of money. He raised six kids. Six kids, that's a lot of kids. Six kids, that's a lot of kids. And he just, he knew who he was and I think he was comfortable with who he was and he was a pretty quiet guy. He was not a fancy guy. He was somebody who was content, I think, in being one of those people who made a difference quietly for people and there was no great act but often what it was at was a willingness to listen a willingness to advocate on somebody's behalf when frankly nobody had anybody to advocate for them and just a willingness to believe in people and that willingness to believe in people I've really tried to emulate, tried to bring it into the work I do because in my system, or I should say the criminal justice system or the legal system it's an adversarial system and I tend to believe and I think I get this from my father certainly get it from growing up in this community I believe most people are good people. We all make mistakes. We all have regrets and that idea of how do you build that resiliency you build it by I think seeing people in your life keep things in perspective, keep them balanced and this willingness to overcome. We didn't have much but we had everything we needed and there was a lot of laughter because that ability to find the humor and the absurdity of life sometimes the good and the bad, the painful is pretty powerful stuff. Perfect example of resilience and I'm sure your dad and your mom too were wonderful and very strong models for you. Yeah, you know, look, my mother, she is a passionate lady and again another person who is always going to choose the underdog and we'll certainly advocate on their behalf and I think both my parents who and again they were extraordinary to us but they were ordinary folks but the message and you know didn't have fancy titles weren't members of any boards but that interaction of seeing your parents interact and treat people the same in regards of who they were what their station of life was that's the message that I got from my parents that message of equality and really the value of everybody and it wasn't sat down and wasn't taught to us you just saw it, you saw it, you saw it practiced and I look back at that often and hopefully demonstrating that behavior to my own children that you meet people where they're at you respect everybody, everybody has value titles don't matter, positions don't matter be a regular person and care about people and look we weren't without our struggles you know but I think what I came away from in my childhood was seeing both my parents really respect and interact with people with a great sense of understanding of who people are and the one thing that also was taught to me is don't get too big for your britches don't take yourself too seriously and it never mattered about it doesn't matter about what position I have or what I may have or may not have achieved politically to my family including my siblings it doesn't matter and they remind me of that often but it's a healthy thing and you obviously bring all those qualities and all those views toward life into your position as our attorney general and I want to thank you for that that is refreshing, that is genuine that is hopeful that's what reverberates with people so thank you for your leadership In closing, I'd like to ask you to tell our viewing audience especially the people out there with substance use disorder what do you want to tell them? Well, that we care about you and we hear you and that we believe in you and that there is hope for a better tomorrow that shame and stigma and guilt needs to be put to the side this is hard work but the community supports you our state supports you we're a better state with you in it being productive, law abiding, sober and that we want to work with you to make sure that the pieces and the structures are in place for people to be healthy people to be happy people to be productive let me tell you we talk about affordability and our challenges in the economy there are so many great people who have been sidelined as a result of this addiction who have such potential we need to give people second chances we need to get people back in the game and let them create let them innovate let them come up with the next best idea based on their skill based on their desire and based on their own ideas that's the value of Vermont that's the value of Vermonters we've got to give people the opportunity to give them a fair shot because I know people can do it thank you I just want to say in closing that you've heard Attorney General Donovan today we know how difficult it is for you we do not think this is easy and we will continue to strive to understand you to develop access and availability of help for you until we have Reacher Teacher and everyone of you so thank you