 very happy to be here virtually meeting with you. Yes, it's not me, it's the people from Taiwan. We have a lot of people who dedicated five million masks. It's more than 600,000 people. It is what I did as a job. My previous job before joining the cabinet was making enterprise social software that enable us to work in a discussion and so I've been working on this technology to enable telecommunication and teleworking for more than 10 years now. That's one part of it but also because we work with very large organizations on digital transformation. Part of my job is also to work with people who are in very large organization to try this new things out. That is also part of my job. We are not bracing ourselves anymore. It's been almost a month now with zero local confirmed cases. In a week we are going to lift all the remaining restrictions on large gatherings and so on relying on strict border control but the day-to-day life will remain the same as pre-coronavirus except of course with more mask use and physical distancing but otherwise we have had no lockdowns, no closure of business and schools and so people are cautiously optimistic about the situation. As I said we did not have a lot of restriction to begin with so the few restrictions we had which was around very large crowd gatherings those are the ones that I were looking to lift next week. However what we are doing now is to ensure that we keep the same quality of border control so that after a month of no locally confirmed cases even if one or two escape their home quarantine or inadvertently cause something that is a local transmission you will not become community spread because the R-value is still under one and so you will not actually get into the society and we're quite optimistic about that. So there are three keys fast, fair and fun. Fast means that we respond as early as last year whereas many countries responded only in this year. Last year when we saw Dr. Lee Wendel's whistleblowing on the social media we made sure that the central epidemic command center gets set up even before we have a local confirmed case and so we acted extremely quickly. We rely on the collective intelligence of people picking up their phone and call 1922 and their suggestions such as wearing a pink medical mask to show gender equality and mainstreaming become public policy or public recommendation the very next day in our daily CECC life press conference where we work with the journalists and answer all the questions so that's the fast part and the fair part ensures a fair distribution of masks and other essential supplies hence any patient kids and things like that to ensure that not only people can get the reply of what they suggested to the government in real time but also the supplies also in real time and everybody can see it through a public mask rationing map where they can see the stock level of all the different pharmacies and how the supplies for adults and for children are like and finally the fun part is very important we have a spokes dog the doge CEO that translates all the CECC recommendations into dog memes so that everybody can look at a very cute dog and learn about for example social distancing or learn learn about covering your face yes and not only the spokes dog but of course many Japanese people now know our premier also use his bottoms to ensure that people don't panic by tissue papers because we only have each of us one Botok there's no need to panic by tissue paper and the mass materials are not the same as the tissue paper materials I didn't do it personally it is our spokes person being us work so he is now the administration spokesperson but encouraged each ministry to have a team of participation offices so for example the Ministry of Health and welfare participation office actually lives with that dog that is actually their dog so whenever they need a new shutter stock photo they don't have to pay shutter stock they just go back home and take a photo of the dog now the premier fully authorizes our now spokesperson thing to work on that picture and pretty clear the use of his images for that and it is very important because the table that shows the tissue paper came from the different material as the mask is actually not that viral it's not by a server very interesting thing conspiracy theory always was very interesting and so to make the clarification more interesting than the rumors is what we call humor over rumor relies on this creative package yes so within every ministry there is a cross-functional team including people working on the political side of things and people who work on the creative side of things that huddle together and have a conversation so this is that by per ministry status however every month we meet for example today we will meet and look at what the people have in mind through petitions or through regulatory pre-announcement commentaries or sandbox applications you name it and then we work with the people who have the brilliant ideas sometimes they frame it in a very good way for example I want to help the government to show the availability of masks sometimes they frame it in a very negative way for example the tax filing system with the personal digital certificate like your and my number card is explosively hostile to its uses so time is sometimes very negative but regardless of whether it's positive or negative we make sure we meet with people who have concrete suggestions and co-create new system that doesn't suffer from the previous problems yes of course in sauce and it was the opposite of that right it was very chaotic the municipality and the central government doesn't deliver the same message there was no central epidemic amongst us we had to barricade the entire hospital and pre-announced is that indefinite period which makes everybody very anxious and it was frankly speaking traumatic so after that the constitutional court and order and peace work together to work on a way that are still constitutional but much more predictable and so that's where the cecc as well as the communication strategy and our daily press conferences and things like that came from and this enable all the different ministry to the cross-ministerial command center where they can work horizontally yes so after a month of rationing masks through pharmacies we discovered that the availability of mask peaks at about 70% of population meaning that there is a sizable population almost 30% that did not go to the pharmacy to pick up a mask and the civil society even a dashboard that shows us where are the mask in shortage where is there over supply is the supply growing and things like that based on the real-time open government data that we provide and so based on the analysis we discover that is mostly in Xinzhou and northern cities northern municipalities where there's young people who don't live with their family they work very long hours so after they go off work all the pharmacies already close anyway and so they could not purchase the mask so the idea of came about which is to work with the convenience stores including family mods 711 ok and high life so that you can pre-order the mask and pick it up the next week in your nearby convenience store 24 hours a day and after that the rate of people using one of the emacs systems or the original pharmacy system sorry sorry so let me do this again so after we work with the convenience stores the young people started to go to the convenience stores using an app and later on using the kiosk on the convenience stores so we see that it grows from more than 70% to more than 90% ensuring that everybody have access to masks we started earlier and there's less and also the idea of everybody learns epidemiology together it's important everybody learns a little bit about epidemiology through listening to the daily press conferences or through the then vice president Chen Jianren recording an online course teaching about epidemiology so fast fair and fun is to make sure that we don't work in a way that keeps the people in the dark rather people propose most of the innovations and we just amplify those good ideas and also accountable so it's not just enough to do transparency transparency with me for example that we publish the mask distribution every day or every week and that's transparent by freedom of information standards but accountability is something else accountability is that everybody can take their national health insurance caught go to a local pharmacy collect nine mask or 10 if they are a child wait for a couple minutes and their phone actually tells them the stock level of that pharmacy will decrease by nine or 10 so they can participate in holding this system to account if they see after they buy nine mask the stock level actually increase by nine right there before leaving the pharmacy they will call the 192 saying that the system has its problems so transparency is just about making the state accessible to people but accountability especially participatory accountability like with distributed ledger like this one ensure that everybody can help do their part in keeping the system honest and also earning mutual trust between the pharmacies and the customers definitely it is a trust issue because the government if the government doesn't trust its citizens then of course they will want to keep the citizens in the dock because people will think oh the government is keeping things from us and so people will develop their own conspiracy theories so it's a vicious cycle if you give no trust then you get no trust and by making sure that we hold ourselves to account listen to the journalists and answer all their questions every day have a single hotline 192 to that almost always gets picked up and translated into actual responses and also publishing the mask pharmacy map stock information every 30 seconds at a time we ensure that we maximally trust the civil society and the civil society sometimes trust back sometimes criticize but that is all based on a informed state of knowledge definitely yeah so if we keep this conversation every day for example if you and I talk every day then of course once you hear something that's a conspiracy theory about me or a misinformation you will not spread that message because you will think oh tomorrow I'll just give Audrey a Skype call and we can check that right but if I only answer your questions every half a year and doesn't address the point that you brought up then of course you will be inclined to share that conspiracy theory because there's no other way that you can get a response from me there's no other way that you can address this pertinent issue if I keep a stone wall and give no response and so this rapid daily communication with the journalist community as an ally our ministry of health and welfare once said to journalists that we should all learn basic epidemiology together because you are great detectives you help us doing the contact tracing and if we all learn epidemiology together we can more meaningfully and communicate with much higher efficiency and he says this in all sincerity because journalists really is the accountability branch the force branch that keeps the society accountable to one another so cherishing the journalist community working with the journalist community I think is one of the core pillar of how CCC handles coronavirus in Taiwan and also it relies on professional storytellers such as journalists to make sure that every side gets fact checked and people can trust that each other is telling the truth or at least their viewpoint of things collective intelligence yes yes yes yeah of course of course it is possible the constitutional court after sauce says very clearly that barricading the entire hospital at that time although very traumatic was constitutional because the alternative is even worse but then they told the MPs to try to invent something that is better than this unannounced barricading and forced isolation and so what we have come up with is the digital fence so once you return to Taiwan to any airport if you are coming from a high-risk area then you're asked to quarantine for 14 days this is standard operation right if you choose to go to a hotel a quarantine hotel we even pay you a stipend of about 33 US dollars a day but if you break that quarantine you pay us a thousand time that but for people who prefer to live at their home they don't prefer to live in a hotel then we say okay so for the next 14 days please keep this phone with you or if you have your own phone you can use your own phone and then we will have a chatbot that checks on your temperature and how you feel at random times a day to make sure that you're close to your phone and we are going to send a SMS message to your local household managers or local police if your phone breaks out of the digital fence that is to say the vicinity of your home this is no GPS technology this is just cell phone tower strengths that the cell phones are collecting anyway from the nearby cell phone towers and we use the same technology for example when there was a going to be a earthquake or when there's going to be a typhoon then we send a SMS as cell broadcast to people in a specific part of the country saying you should probably leave now but we do not actually track the GPS or other application level signal from that cell phone for for the 14 days people are under surveillance they are going to suffer a privacy harm and receive a compensation for it but after 14 days there's no constitutional idea that can support us continuing to make the digital fence operating and so you go back to the society there is no discrimination or things like that and people see very clearly that the 14 days was kind of a personal sacrifice or a greater good and if you don't like the digital fence of course you can always go to the quarantine hotel I don't think wristband is particularly a good idea there's two reasons first we are attached to our phone anyway but very few people are attached to their wristband so it will feel more like a intrusion than something that you're already doing so it changes the norm is what I'm saying so that's the first thing and the second thing that you said about apps is that apps are only useful and we do use like chatbots apps are only useful if you understand how it works but for many people while the cell phone power triangulation because of previous experience on earthquake warning or heavy rainfall warning there's many presidents so it's easier to explain to people but if you use Bluetooth or other application level technologies that you need a longer time to explain to people so people feel assured that you will not encroach on their privacy and they will make informed decisions so while we do see that many other economies use Bluetooth applications and there's some of Taiwanese researchers helping them we see it as it's only useful for people who are already kind of in the community spread stage has to rely on these kind of thing to keep themselves but because I would never enter community spread so we do not think that this added cognitive burden is worth it however in Taiwan we never entered a state of emergency all this time we are operating under normal constitutional law where every administrative action need to have a legal authority saying that the parliaments have approved this action so this was for example the digital fence was built on legal presidents and regulations that already was created immediately post stars and we do yearly drills to keep this afresh so what I'm getting at is that we see the damage to constitutional democracy if we declare a state of emergency that authorize administration to do whatever and for the legislation to have oversight after the fact however we've never done that so everything we did including the digital fence there's public hearings in the parliament there's explanation of how it works to the MPs we are kept under the existing law on personal data protection there's nothing extraordinary going on when we are doing these measures because we never enter a state of emergency technology is the main response technology is great however it is just one small part of the technology the most important technology is soap it's chemical technology that clears the virus of your hands and if you don't have soap you know alcohol spray that's alternative and these two are the most important technology there's no other technology including facial mask that is more important than washing your hands properly so much so that the mask for us is mainly a reminder for us to wash your hands properly and not touch your face so it builds upon the hands annotation and the IT that makes sure masks are evenly and fairly distributed that again reinforces mask use which reinforces hand washing and so at the end of it is hand washing that counters the virus the IT and all other technology just amplify the hand washing tendencies and we can see it's happening because using data from the water use we can actually really see that people are washing their hands much more frequently yes the social sector is the main player and if you ask a random person on the street saying that are you wearing mask because the CECC orders you to they will say no I'm going to wear a mask because I'm going to protect my health and I'm going to remind other people to wear a mask because I care about their health and so I wear a mask when CECC tells me to I also wear a mask when the CECC tells me not to for example when we keep social distancing the physical distance of three dogs indoor and two dogs outdoors means that we don't have to wear a mask if people are not in a crowded space but even after the CECC say that people keep the distance but still wear a mask so I think it's social sector adoption of those counter coronavirus ideas that is the ultimate reason of the effective response that's right that's the that's the neighborhood household managers that have referred to yes these are people who take care of people's mental health needs when they are in 14-day quarantine they ask whether they need something maybe they want a creative outlet so maybe they buy some you know stylus or pansofa depending on their drawing preferences or if they want a new phone because they're open keep running out of battery and triggering the digital fans they help them getting a new phone and so on so basically they show that people under home quarantine are respected and also cared during the 14 days they're not ostracized from the society now there's parts of the Taiwan model for example wearing a mask as a indicator of I'm washing my hands properly and not touching my face all the time at the social signal that can be very easily replicated in the Czech Republic they have the mask for all campaign that precisely reuses this incentive design and this is very powerful by itself and have a daily press conference you can replicate that very easily having a single hotline you can do that using just telephone technology having a cute spokes dog I guess you'd have to find a dog first but in any case all of these measures of even individually they are like social scripts like new ways of how society work together that each can decimate the R value a little bit so it's not about the whole package of Taiwan model it's about the bits and pieces that enable more social sector involvement and trust yeah I call AI assistive intelligence so anything that you would tell a assistant to do AI can probably do it in the sense of they can automate away a lot of the chores however as with any assistant you need to make sure that their value align with your value and if they do something that seemed to deviate from your value they have to provide an explanation account for it it's called accountability so value alignment and accountability as you would expect of a human assistant is the same for the AI assistance so the chatbot that I just mentioned is a good example because using the chatbot even people who are not under home quarantine can contact the HTC deep queue chatbot called G1 and they have I think more than 2 million followers is an interactive chatbot that teaches you epidemiology and you can ask them a lot of questions including where are the nearby pharmacy that still have the mask so this saves the 1922 human call center operators a lot of time however the self-service always gets calibrated based on real-time feedback from the people and if you see the chatbot misbehaving you just call 1922 and you're guaranteed to you know reach a human operator who can help calibrating that value that social value that the chatbot is delivering and so what I'm getting at is that AI is great but it's only as good as the human coach that help this assistant to grow with the society as part of the social norm yes the radical transparency means transparency at a root and at a root means that each interview for example this very one that we're having I posted to the public under creative commons meaning that people can use parts of it in their own creation and we hold this to ourselves as well so if I am the chair of any internal meetings after 10 working day of co-editing we also release a transcript of what we have discussed online and this is important because for many jurisdictions they only publish their ideas once they're finalized that falls into the freedom information they don't share the part where they're still brainstorming about the ideas but if you have already made the decision the civil society cannot help you the civil society is only helpful if you admit that you don't know what's going on that you don't have a clue of when need to be solved and only in this very early stage can the civil society help setting and agenda as a radical transparency is saying that I don't really have the good answers but I'm happy to share so that you see exactly what the digital ministry sees and if you have a good idea I'm going to amplify your idea so that's a digital democracy this is about people collectively seeing themselves not as only the digital literate which would mean that professionals make things and we consume them that's literacy means like media literacy right so in Taiwan as early as the first grade when people are seven years old we teach media competence and digital competence and data competence competence meaning they are producers of media of data they're curators of digital narratives they are active participants in data collaboratives and data republics and the point here is that when the students measure their own k-air quality measure their own water quality contributes those into the distributed ledger and so on they make sure that they participate in the creation of value from the data and they are no longer the consumer that are just passively being observed to create monopolies and the Japan has a similar idea called the information bank and I think we need to work together more on this kind of social sector controlled joint controllership of data so if we publish every 30 seconds it necessarily mean that nobody look at those numbers before they go out as soon as the pharmacy collect the data as soon as the air box or water box collect environment data it just goes out and so if they got it wrong everybody can help fixing it and because it's every 30 seconds everybody know that no public servant have the time to check the data every 30 seconds it's just not possible so of course they will not face penalties or criminal liabilities because if you don't look at it it's not your fault so publishing upon collection or open api that is the way where the public service can absolve themselves of the errors of the data but of course they have still to respond timely when there is a systemic bias or something wrong with the data system but not with the individual data yes yes if the data come partly or even mainly from the civil society from any interest groups that can join and leave as data contributors then naturally the stakeholders hold themselves to account if everything has to concentrate to the government then the government of course has an incentive to only publish the part that they have looked at however if the producers are not primarily government government is really just a platform to amplify the social value of these data by making sure that people can discover this data but at the end of the day its collection is on individual pharmacists on individual environment teachers on individual citizens yes so the main thing is about sustainability the SDGs is a great value system that tells us that environmental social and economic values add to one another they don't are opposite each other however there's many people who think that if they focus on in the environmental affairs or on social equality or on economic development they don't have as much connection as with people in other sectors working on other sectors priorities and so the presidential hexon for example we make sure that people use a new voting system called quadratic voting that is designed so that by the end of the day when we announce the top 24 winners everybody feel they have won because they would spread their vote very fairly and evenly according to their true social preference using quadratic voting as opposed to one person one vote where most of people will feel they have lost when we announce the top 24 and with the public mandate all the teams receive support so that at each team there's at least one public servant one social sector activist and also one private sector business person and so it makes sure that this is of good benefit for all the three sectors instead of at the expense of other sectors and each team has to identify a precise SDG target to work with so it doesn't solve only the problem in Taiwan but also solves global problems because all the SDGs are global problems and this is how we make sure that while we're promoting social innovation locally it also leads to industrial innovation for example any place in the world if they now want to make two million masks a day our team can set up a micro factory or you can ask of this factory you can ask and change to N95, R95 or other productions and all you need to provide is just water electricity supply and the parts of land and this is a industrial innovation that is part of the social innovation of medical mask use that makes sure that the business people also have a business line of great public value and this is just one example I would say that it's becoming more fair in the sense both of egalitarian as in fair distribution but also fair opportunity so that people with a good idea they don't need to be part of a very large organization they can be just a individual but if they have a good idea these kind of platform make sure they can get the resource they need to realize that idea I mean the young boy who don't want to go to school because all they have is a pink medical mask that called 1922 doesn't belong to a strong union or strong association or a large business but that idea is really good so the next day when the CCC everybody wore pink medical mask gender mainstreaming and social innovation happens right there and this is the kind of fairness that we're looking at yes it's day-to-day democracy so previously many people think representative democracy as just a ritual right you go to the voting booth every four years or every two years you provide three bits of information that is to say choose a candidate and and that's done right then democracy is just this four-year ritual however in social innovation democracy happens literally every day every day you can choose something of public concern and propose a new way to do it and if your idea has a r-value larger than one meaning that people who hear about your idea amplify to more than one person your idea will go viral and when your idea go viral the whole society changes and then that is to the public benefit so in a sense it is democracy but is democracy not by representatives representing your idea but rather people representing your idea remixing your idea and making sure that your ideas become the new norm in the society yes I would say that it can become more pro-social so they become pro-social media when it encourages people to puzzle out the collective intelligence and make sure that people contribute their piece to the puzzle if people keep fighting each other on the most divisive ideologies then social media become anti-social media and whether the social media is anti-social or pro-social depends on the design of the media platform itself and so what we're getting at is that we build our own platforms such as the joint platform and so on because we want people to be pro-social on these platforms and if existing social media platform become too anti-social we also work with them to say hey the norm in Taiwan for example during election is to publish the campaign expense and campaign donation if certain large social media platform refuse to do so they are against the social norm and even though there is no law prohibiting it they may face social sanction and so they actually adhere to the Taiwanese norms and also publish the real-time campaign donation and expense when it comes to advertisements on social media this is just one small example but this shows if you have a strong social sector a strong social norm it can only get stronger and gets not only just governments to comply to the people's will but also large multinational private companies such as Facebook yeah so the first thing is we make sure that the social media themselves adhere to the social norm to make sure that for example when there is this information campaign that are intentional that cause public harm we make a notice and public notice approach where the social media platforms work with the fact-checkers professional journalists in Taiwan to make sure that if there is a counter narrative that says oh this is actually state propaganda they show this label to every story that runs with the original this propaganda so this is not a takedown we don't do takedown unless it's judicial takedown but we don't do it in the administration we rather provide our real-time clarification in a matter of two hours and on average we provide within one hour and this is crucial because if we provide clarification that are funny within two hours then the funny message reach more people than the conspiracy theory and the divisive ideology and so by the time that people see this outrageous conspiracy theory people will not believe it they will not spread it the r-value will be under one so this is like vaccination against antisocial parts of the conspiracy theories and disinformation messages but if we don't respond in time then of course they will grow and they will make a very trust-destimating frame that makes people angry at each other but even then it's useful if we just invite the people who are the most angry to become co-creators and then that restore trust also yeah maybe consensus is not something we want in day-to-day democracy maybe we just run want rough consensus or maybe we just want consent like instead of we all agree very strongly maybe we just want to say okay we can live with it it's a very soft form of consensus and the soft form of consensus allows for more room for people who are vulnerable for people who are marginalized for people whose ideas are in the minority because they don't have to convince the majority they have to only say but can you live with it and most people will say yeah i can live with it and that is how we for example legalize the wedding the marriage between same-sex couples by saying oh it's the same rights and same duties as heterosexual couples but it doesn't marry the families so we intentionally left out the part of the civil code that talks about family-to-family relationships so it's the same rights and duties between individuals but not marriage between the two families and that is something that i call rough consensus because both cultures can live with this compromise but this is not a compromise if it becomes a new social norm and people will then start thinking oh actually this way of marriage may be even better than the old way of marriage it's more liberal anyway so what i'm trying to get is that it also paves the innovation in a new direction that's right so yeah the point of gender mainstreaming is that if you have to convince everybody in the society across all generations to agree strongly on something then you might as well not start because by definition those ideas are against the majority's thinking but if you start with some tiny idea like pink medical mask then people may find it funny and people will not all become transgender overnight but they will tolerate more of gender mainstreaming ideas i think the transformation mostly began in the sunflower occupy when more than million people on the street and many more online see that digital democracy is not just a idea it actually has been put to use and settled on four demands not one less on the cross-strait service trade agreements in march 2014 everybody see that this kind of digital democracy is the future and that is why at the end of that year i get invited as a kind of understudy to the cabinet to work with the public service so i'm just one small petal of the sunflower movement i think it's that movement that changed the social norm yeah i think uh the idea of taiwan as a is a lab as a contemporary cultural lab is a very potent one i always say that taiwan is uh growing literally growing the highest point in taiwan the sabian the jade mountain is growing by like three centimeters every year uh and we grow toward the sky not because that we humans do something it's because the tectonic place the duration plate on one side and the philippine sea plate on the other they keep bumping into one another and causing earthquakes and this is again just like in taiwan when you talk about data there are people who think the state should own everything and put a surveillance like prc does and it's a valid viewpoint in taiwan there are people who think that the commercial entities should run data um monopolies uh and it's because it's more efficient or something uh there are also people who say oh no the social sector should own the data they should form cooperatives and so on and the great thing about taiwan is that we have the completely freedom of speech of assembly of the press so that all of these people can push their tectonic place to what one another don't and they don't fear that they will get disappeared or something and according to civicus monitor where the topmost in asia when it comes to such freedoms and this ensures that new innovations that everybody can live with and frankly speaking is better for everybody involved can emerge out of this demand if people very simply say oh there's this information the social media is anti-social we must run state surveillance we must run state takedown we need to give up freedom of speech if that's an easy solution but that means that the cute dog will not emerge and i prefer the cute dog to takedown any day yes yeah of course no no no no we uh see the uh wisdom of the elders very important and the young people take uh after their wise elders and make new possible directions without destroying the old culture there is a workshop that i held where people talked about how to make beautiful wooden seal that the seal is a multi-touch surface so if you apply it uh not to ink but rather to your phone the entire design is transferred to the phone so you can make an electronic signature that is very beautiful and as beautiful as the seal itself so it translates the craft and the wisdom of the seal into the new digital world and it gives new life to the elders and now if a young person says oh i'm just throwing away the seals of course then the elders don't like that idea but the idea of reverse mentorship is that they are mentors to the old people of how to make their art still relevant their culture still relevant in the digital world and that angle is always welcomed by the elderly definitely definitely definitely already when we talked about this information or about climate change or about protecting the oceans it's already people to people because these are global issues and these are issues that are not so strictly speaking fixable within a order of a jurisdiction so the idea of sovereignty is sometimes actually not very useful when you talk about global infodemic and things like that and but now comes the pandemic more so than climate change carbon dioxide or infodemic the pandemic makes sure that each epicenter is just two months away or two months ago from another epicenter so the time scale is even more close than climate change which is maybe one generation or two generations distance and so it's the same structure as other global collaboration between stakeholders however it is much more pertinent to the people within the same generation if you don't learn about climate change your grandchildren suffers if you don't learn epidemiology you suffers so that is a different time scale and so i think this international gender solidarity will only grow because we now are happy to see for example a few days before the wha we held our own mini-lateral of 14 countries working together on the pandemic and this kind of relationship will only grow after the pandemic so that we can feel empowered to tackle more global issues as we successfully tackle the pandemic together i think we are already doing this the pandemic is a great amplifier if you start with a liberal democracy that empower the social sector it makes the social sector even stronger if you believe in journalism finding out truth telling the truth to everybody your journalistic community become proud during the pandemic however if you believe about totalitarian or authoritarian control that also gets amplified in other jurisdictions during the lockdowns and such so what i'm trying to say is that the new normal is just a amplified old normal and if the old normal has multiple different contesting ideas now is the perfect time for the social innovators to think of new idea that everyone can live with because if you think about those idea and they contribute to fighting of the pandemic that becomes a defining characteristics of the new normal so this is the golden days for social innovators mm-hmm yes mm-hmm that's exactly right so by smooths i mean not sacrificing what we hold dear for example human right privacy democracy as you have outlined but rather smoothly make new interpretations of those values so that after the pandemic we feel that not only we're healthy and resilient but even more democratic than before as i said fast fear and fun and for details uh see taiwan can help that us so that's the website that is the website taiwan can help that us so my motto is um taiwan can help that of course yes you you see pretty much every tweet that i tweet has hashtag taiwan can help and i'm happy that taiwan is helping on many regard to yes yes definitely uh and so yeah if you want the motto from that point of view i would say um something that liana ko and my favorite singer have said uh which is quote um ring the bells that still can ring forget the perfect offering there is a crack a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in that's right they have me just uh remixing my sounds like amplifying amplifying into their song about the republic of citizens or minguo uh it's very interesting because i i didn't actually participate in the creation it's just it's my habit to make my interviews public on youtube uh under a creative commons license and usually is for journalists who want to make it part of the investigative journalism to quote the sources but i didn't say only journalists can use it so obviously hip hop singers can use it as well and so they just ask uh whether it's okay and by that time they've already finished mixing it so i just say of course it's okay as a public license go for it but i did not participate in the production but i'm really happy to hear the final result is great i mean the remixing uh the creative commons is uh boundless so if people want to make it like the taiwan model of me or the dog or something into taiwan model as a fashion model of course they can do that so the idea of boundless innovation open innovation is very important because then the innovators don't have to work in a way that i'm accustomed to they can work from a very different angle and i learn from the creators i'm happy to contribute more materials for their remixing and i'm considering after listening to them maybe to enter the podcast idea maybe i can make more podcasts with the understanding that some hip hop groups will remix the podcasts and prompted to invest in better recording equipment of course of course so i mean my office is in the social innovation lab this is the cabinet building the administration building so this is the the boring place where it's larger so the camera crew have more room my real working space is in the social innovation lab but i'm happy to tour with your local crew on this small office as it is and if they have some time and they want to film at the social innovation lab my colleague will also take them there i mean the administration i'm in the administration building but i'm here only sometimes monday and thursday i'm not Thursday's cabinet meeting otherwise i'm in the social innovation lab i just went back from there i'm here just for this interview yeah there's something i mean there's beautiful orchid flowers i guess if you want to see some orchid flowers but otherwise this place is for more formal meetings and most of my work take part in the social innovation lab which is a park we tore down the wall everybody can walk in from the street they can see very transparently that i'm in there i'm working they can just push my door open i have 40 minutes of my time every wednesday and this open space is much more interesting if you want to make a like on-camera view of my place of work so i'm happy to work with your local crew to take some footage there yes of course you're you're welcome actually every day every day even before i enter this cabinet office i go first to the social innovation lab and so i think this is open innovation symbolized it's not just a garden in the cabinet building it is the cabinet building in a garden and that is the new normal of democracy ah okay of course why not so um do i just hold it uh okay like this okay sure why not that's right okay i'm done and so what do i do ah okay okay sure okay like this we're done okay thank you thank you uh-huh of course uh and i look forward so that we can meet in person uh hopefully soon thank you bye arigatou gozaimashita and we're done