 Welcome back to the nest where we are discussing a very important matter of the day and that is the issue of miscarriage, which happens to a lot of mums, many who don't speak about it, many who deal with it privately because of stigma and a lot of issues surrounding that. What we forget is that not only does it affect that parent psychologically, physically and in every manner possible, meaning relationships that she has with the people around her, we have to discuss this because it is very important so that whoever is watching this, whether your mum to be, whether you are already a mum who has experienced this or whether you are a person surrounding this mum, we can have well-equipped manners on how to handle this and we are very honored to have our specialist of the day who will take us through the psychological beat of miscarriage and how we can conduct ourselves better as these three categories, the mother, the people around them, especially the spouses and how the mum can go on to the next step. Please introduce yourself. Okay, thank you so much. Oh, my name is Chabere Muriyuki. Yes. I am a counselling psychologist. I deal with the children and adolescents counselling. Yes. I am a marriage and family therapist. I also council in the areas of trauma and I consult in mental health issues. Yes. Yes, just to mention a few because our field is quite wonderful. I think what you do is very noble and you know we always think that mental health is about just being depressed and that's it but it's a wide scope of that and again we are very honored to have you today to talk about this particular issue of miscarriage. We know with our mum who also happens to be a counsellor and putting our minds together we are able to help that person who is watching at home and I think I'm going to just throw the question at you and ask you what is the aspect of miscarriage and what are these misconceptions that people have about miscarriage especially in our Kenyan or our that world setup. Thank you so much for that question. I will go straight to looking at it the misconception which are so much so sure. Yes. One there is a mythic belief that anytime any lady or a mother loses a child who is less than 20 weeks they think that is nothing there was nothing much that occurred and I want to put the records right that immediately conception takes place. Yes. There is attachment which first of all starts psychologically and then it is manifested in the physical. I hope you've seen women immediately they conceive like after three weeks after a month they keep rubbing their belly. It is an indicator of a relationship, a connection and a contact that has already occurred between the mother and the child they are carrying. Not carefully. This first connection and relationship starts their nature in the mind, in the psychological. Long before the child is born or is seen by us the men, the women, the society and everyone else there is a connection that has started being nurtured from conception. Okay. Now when this occurs no one looks at the woman or the lady or the mother as somebody who has started a journey that is so emotional, that is so real and that is so anticipatory. Absolutely. One thing is once you conceive you are carrying a life and the society looks at you differently. Absolutely. As much as the mother is expecting and carrying the society also is expecting for a delivery. However this one now is held in ash tone so when you lose they just allow me to say carelessly out of ignorance brush it aside. Of course they do not look at the relationship that was there between the lady and the baby. Right. Having said that the journey of loss is one of the most difficult and especially when a mother loses a child. There is one thing we do not look at from the mother that the mother had high hopes of what they were carrying. I believe you've ever heard this statement they say I could be carrying the president. I could be carrying the next term Wangari Mada is and on and on that is such a huge anticipation. Absolutely. Now think of it if it's the first pregnancy or think of it if it's the second pregnancy and the first one also was lost. Yes. The anticipation. Right. The expectation. Right. Is so high. Yes. Now another thing we do not look at as a community and as a people is the pressure that is unspoken that is pulled to the lady by the husband. Absolutely. Because in Africa we become people. Yes. By fathering. Yes. That's why when you're not a father they'll put you to be a father. You cannot be able to talk to community. You can't stand and talk to people and be accepted as someone. I don't want to mention why I can't. And also that's why they always say you've got a girl waiting for a boy. So without me driving into that that psychological pain that a mother goes through is so huge. Yes. And to some great extent the mothers always blame themselves for mistakes that they never did. Precisely. For complication they didn't have an idea about. Yes. And for lack of knowledge that it occurs to people. Yes. And it's none of my doing. It's true. And therefore a lady goes into a journey of self-blame, self-condemnation, judgment and loss of self-worth and esteem whereby they feel I am not worth. Yes. Makiyu. Yes. As they go to the river to fetch water. Yes. As they meet to go to the market place. Yes. They are somewhere mocking the mother. True. There goes the one who cannot hold a pregnancy. A pregnancy. Yes. And it becomes a huge journey of pain, torment and trauma. Yes. So women go through serious traumatic pressure after losing a child. Yes. Yes. And again it's the same story we were talking about. Same thing that happened to her. She dealt with this privately and she was feeling all this overwhelming feelings of did I not do the right thing, will my husband blame me about it, who do I even tell because in reality in a common setup of normal death people come together, they comfort you and eventually you're able to heal. But in this manner you're going through this process all by yourself because you're the only one who knows what's happening in your body. You're the only one who knows the pain of losing that child. Again she was mentioning, she was having nightmares. Yes. Even carrying her children again was such a difficult journey because every time she would just wake up and she would think I'm going to lose this one as well and I think again as a counselling psychologist you can tell that mum who is at home perhaps they are going through that and I know there are very many who are watching us today. What would you tell them when if they come, let's say they've come to your office and they are saying I'm here, I lost one or two or three because you can never determine and it is it is real. Like if you've put it, the minute that conception takes place automatically you become a mother and then you lose this pregnancy. What steps would you ask them to take as an individual and as we go towards that what steps can the people around them take so that there can be this communal way of comforting this mother? Thank you. It is very wrong or difficult first of all to look at a lady alone because it takes two to conceive. Absolutely. Unfortunately, when this occurs, ladies are left alone and I forgive you for even asking what she should do because eventually a lady, a person must know how to take care of themselves but the first step that I always make sure because I have dealt with quite a number of those cases is to make sure that the husband or the man or the owner of the pregnancy if I can talk like an African accompanies her for therapy. Now this is where I find a lot of resistance and difficulty. The stoicism of men where they should be seen to be strong whereas they are dying from inside comes out. Unfortunately, to tell a lady and that's where I find a lot of trouble to walk with a lady to accept the journey alone whereas it was a business of two people becomes a very difficult journey. However, so that they can answer your question, I always enable them to appreciate themselves back and take a lot of pain to walk them through to understand it was nothing of their making. Number one. Number two, it is scientifically it's a difficult thing to be proven what happens or what is what's happening and in this case I'm avoiding to go to the science world. So that is my worst and most difficult assignment journey to make a lady look at it and accept themselves that I was not the making. Number two is to make the lady feel a human being, the self esteem, the wolf. Remember, children offer identity both to men and to women and that's African. So I came to restore their self worth so that esteem can be fair so that to know yes this happened. However, I am still okay and I can still have other children and then having done that we start the journey of self appreciation and acceptance because sometimes the patina might have neglected the other person emotional or use the situation to bring her down, you know, in waske scenarios scenarios and it becomes difficult where a lady or a mother has got like two girls and they were looking for a boy. It's very traumatic, very painful because if it was a boy they lost it's a very hard journey and then the last one and the most difficult is to convince them that the Lord still loves them and cares for them and it's not that the Lord has forgotten them neglected them, doesn't care about them and to make them appreciate that God has the power again to give them a boy as they decide. It's very difficult, very hard journey to walk but we record progress. Absolutely, I'm just happy that we're highlighting these items and I don't know so far what is going through your mind because combined with what we are saying today about appreciating the journey, thinking of again we are worthy of this again, thinking of what should the people around us do, is there anything that you feel was done right during your time which was when maybe things are not the same as they are today? People are not sitting down to talk about miscarriages so openly you know how would you have wanted this to be done differently or what after many years and of course becoming a mum again what would have prepared you better? I simply want to echo the sentiment of our psychologists and to say that whatever you said I really decogonise with it that our society has not embraced miscarriage and that is why many women don't talk about it they are those who get pregnant, okay he has talked of the couple but they are those ladies or those women who get pregnant out of wedrock and the father is not known and then here you're getting a miscarriage it's even stressful because one you're rebored number two you don't get support system as you said during the loss and grief when somebody has died yes within the family people will come and console you but when it's a miscarriage it turned like it was not it was it was not something you know and I think it even had more and makes the healing journey to be I mean to take more time yes as he has said a baby gives you an identity unfortunately because I'm talking from a mum's perspective yes there is no loss that can be covered with another one most people will come to you and tell you it's okay you'll get another one yes I want to say that no baby can depress the loss allow yourself to go through the process of loss and grief and people mourn differently mourn your miscarriage to the to the point whereby you feel that you have a closure why because if you don't mourn to the process to process your mourning I remember when I got pregnant my first born baby she's now in form one when I went to the hospital now to deliver again I developed complication in fact that time we were to lose myself I was to get I mean we develop complication both whereby it's either two of us to be saved yes all one because she had tugged herself rice yes and I went to the theater and I knew when I was confirmed that the baby is not moving I knew the baby is not there again I had not dealt with my loss you tortured yourself yes so when I saw the baby I saw I mean the world again I'm still not not processed yes so when I processed my loss that is when I realized that the baby had lost it was a baby it was not something yes as well as it's not something that can be replaced it had to go through the process of loss and grief to come into turns I want to encourage the moms at home sometimes the support system may not be there and you may develop postpartum depression sure again people may not understand you and because people don't understand you you you walk alone you feel so lonely right you feel negreted and you also feel like the world is coming to a net you know the way the world gets shattered yes because it's like the mess is the brain shifting like the way he has said it's it's you in case like not the way you see if somebody is drinking somebody is not carefully so and all those narratives but I want to say like and I want to still to strengthen the point that we say that you also need to know that life is given by one god yes nobody can give life because I have walked with people who have gone through ectopic pregnancy and sometimes you're asking yourself the doctor has confirmed that they're they're both faropian chimps are blocked I have walked with people who went through miscarriage and they were sick go mans and the world has been shattered because they tell me that will I get a man who will accept that I can hold a baby two times because yes they think I am the type of you know the way miscarriage is associated with a kacholo society especially the african something is wrong with you yes something is wrong with you that you have that especially when you miscarry something is wrong they start now tracing your kacha they start tracing your family lines they start tracing yeah and they associate you with this kind of a person yes that I do not want to associate with you yes because your family yes I will keep on losing my oh yes the way I said again if you keep on losing miscaling boys again another stigma is true because they wonder will you ever call it for me a baby yes for an african man yes it's a boy it's a boy but I I want to empower people in the society to say that embrace the gift of God in the family yes because you can get one girl equal to five sands true so I think you embrace the journey and he has as he has said as a couple please walk the journey together yes if it's pray pray together yes if it's walking encourage one another absolutely as he has said men more differently yes and sometimes we ignore yes like I want to say I ignored like I felt like my husband was not yes he couldn't understand yeah he was not in a pain yes you know that's a that's normal because there is nothing that you know that he is mourning true but I felt like I was in this alone yes and that is that happens yes and as he has said please let and college people to go through cancer absolutely and to go especially the mental health journey even case you developed a mental status yes whereby you have anxiety you have fear those things cannot be felt dealt with in normal circumstances you need to sit on a counseling room sit with a counselor yes let them walk you the journey and then in preparation to now getting another baby getting I was not prepared right I found myself unfolding stories after stories today I empower the couples to be I do a thorough primary to kansuri program okay and encourage somebody to go see a guy no yes two of them why because even the homonono imbalances in the body you don't know yourself yes some of them they even have the type A the negative whereby yes you don't know your blood group was not taken yes the man is negative or the woman is negative and then they start losing the baby true whereas yeah when it should be so it's a simple journey absolutely when they go to the hospital the doctor they inject and then they're able to save the baby unfortunately with a lot of ignorance in our country yes and in our society yes we need to pass this information to people absolutely well thank you so much I think in fact I was just going into talik and we have these are final remarks but you closed it so well as I give you know Mr. Moriuki a chance to give us your perspective as a counseling psychologist just as a parting shot whoever is watching us out there and I mean whoever friend husband the mum mum to be a person who could experience this what is the one thing you can have them carry with them every day from our topic today oh thank you very much or one this is not a one person's journey it requires all of us yes number two we are so mythical that knowledge is need to be sought after it is not just automatic for us to have a child and just deliver normally yes it takes a lot of other things and information sets at free and I mean liberates us yes last is that also to the man yes there is need for us to accept it is okay not to be okay yes and it is okay to seek help yes and it is not a woman's thing to say I am not okay you can say that yes yes I need I wish I could have I could have amplified my voice because men stoikism is killing us culture as daughters absolutely you know this that is such a maid that is killing us and killing us and that's why you notice men run to bus men run to wrong systems to try and cope which is a negative way of coping I as a man as a professional and as a psychologist I want to tell him it is okay to come to therapy yes and it is okay to say I am happy it is okay to seek for help yes and there are solutions about emotional and psychological pain and trauma yes and let us appreciate that post traumatic trauma is real and it can cause serious mental issues it can be stopped it can be dealt with it can taken care of all what they need is to take a bold step absolutely and seek help absolutely otherwise thank you so much thank you so much I cannot have I cannot put it any better thank you so much for sharing your wonderful journey and encouraging obviously we are not talking about mums today we are talking about everybody who belong who who's this child belongs to they say a child is read by the society the minute I find out I'll tell my friend and I'll tell my relatives and we all become parents to these children and again thank you so much for your time and thank you for your wisdom as a psychologist counselling psychologist thank you for your wisdom as a man who has survived this traumatic you know experience and also for sharing your journey and for doing what you're doing for the society right so what a wonderful show this has been I've learnt a lot and I think the takeaway home today will be a child doesn't just belong to the mother and a miscarriage is a real loss which should be faced like any other loss again it doesn't matter who you are whether it's the mother whether it's the father message to the man it's okay not to be okay hold your spouse's hand if you're a friend to a single mum to be who has had a miscarriage hold her hand seek counselling seek guidance because you cannot escape grief somehow it will catch up with you and it's good to just face it head on so that you can get a second chance in life and you can get a second chance in loving another human being god willing again god gives and god will give again that's the message for today and this doesn't stop here because next week we continue with this amazing amazing journey of miscarriage again i'm saying amazing because we do not have many platforms that talk about these issues which are real and we need to face them as we hear more stories from real parents who go through all the issues that parenthood brings and how to solve them thank you and have a good night