 Ranting. Reflecting. Reasoning. Reckoning. It is 18-6 on the huddle this evening. Josie Pagani is with me. Hello Josie. Hi Larry. And we have Cameron Slater from Whale Oil. Hello Cameron. Hi Larry. Good to talk to you. Josie, to you first. Well the unions had their march against the ports of Auckland and what has been happening there. That was on, what was that, Saturday? It was Saturday, I think it was. What Saturday? Yeah, Labour teachers, nurses, they all supported their friends, their comrades, whatever. Me and Brown had a talk to them today. Nothing has changed. The workers remain sacked and they're contracting out the work. How do you see it now, Josie? Well I think that's interesting is on Saturday you had a lot of people turning up to that rally and really the issue changed. It stopped being about the substance of the issue. No matter what you think about that, the ports lost the moral high ground the minute they fired those wolfies and then it became about bad faith negotiating. So no matter what you think of it, Cam, it's possible now that they could end up in court and if they end up in court, if there's any indication that the ports were planning to casualise these jobs in advance, then they're in trouble. The problem is, Josie, is that you think that the board and the management are complete plonkers and haven't thought this thing through. They know what their legal position is and it's just an absolute spin to say that they were sacked and fired. They were made redundant. After sitting there for months and months refusing to budge on any item on the agenda, they lost their jobs. You've got a sense, Cam. To do that in the middle of mediation is a pretty provocative thing. The interesting thing about that is suddenly you've got people getting involved who weren't necessarily standing on thicket lines who are saying, actually that's a pretty nasty thing to do. Well, I'll tell you what is nasty is calling for people to use violent means to get your own means like Willie Jackson's done today. Oh, I agree. It's just a pauling statement from him today. What a dast bugger. What is he thinking? Look, the interesting thing also about this dispute is he's seen an awful lot of the hard left and the silly left sea-golling around this issue and trying to make it... Well, that's right. Well, they're trying to make an issue about smashing the bosses and the frontline for a fight against capitalism. Well, that's really arrogant to use. Capitalism pays the bills. But just go back to your numbers, Josie. You said that a lot of people were out there in support. 100,000 people went to Pacifica Festival at Western Springs Park on the same day and another 30,000 were down at the Viaduct enjoying the Volvo Ocean Race and a poultry of 2,000 to 5,000, depending on whose numbers you believe, bothered to show up and carry some signs along the waterfront. Just shows how little support they've actually got. It's much more pleasant to go down on the Viaduct and have a glass of wine. It's like comparing people who go to the dentist and people who go out partying or something. One thing's not comparable with the other. All right, we'll come back in just a moment. We'll continue this debate shortly. Josie Pagani and Cameron Slater with me. It's now 15-6. It is now 13-6 back with Josie Pagani and Cameron Slater. Josie, just before we leave the unions and the ports, the legal stuff that you referred to before, I haven't seen a legal opinion that appears to back the unions. In fact, to the contrary. The fact is you're talking about good-faith bargaining. They walked away from nine offers. They've been on strike during the so-called good-faith bargaining period. You know, they've got problems. It's pretty unusual, though, if you think about it, to fire your entire workforce when you're in negotiations with them. So, as far as they're concerned, it feels like the same thing. Well, how many officers do you have to reject? You may redundant and then replace those workers. It basically means firing, doesn't it? So, I mean, you've got to look. If there are any holes in the port's position, if they were planning to do this all along, if they were planning to make it non-union membership that works there, then there is going to be some case to answer. I don't know that there will be, but that's certainly a risk. I don't think this dispute's over. I think Paaslo's hollow promise is about not a single ship being processed at the port or ringing hollow now. There's another ship now that's being unloaded as I watch on the video, on the web. Okay. Issue two, Josie. Briefly, the Labor's policy on sales of land to foreigners, they want to ban virtually sales unless they can be proven to bring substantial benefits to New Zealand. I think this is the policy we actually have now. How do you see it? Well, it's actually a policy that Labour campaigned on in the last election. It's a version of it anyway. So, what they've done is they've updated it. And actually, if you look at it, the timing is quite appropriate. It's the High Court have chucked out the crisis sale, the sale of the Chinese, for example, and said it's not actually demonstrating that it's bringing enough returns to New Zealand. Go back and have a look. Well, but they said it, the High Court said it. Even the Overseas Investment Office only passed it. They said, look, there's only going to be two jobs, two dairy workers, that ain't enough. But they ignored the 100 million additional market in China. It was just ridiculous. But okay, the Overseas Investment Office and the High Court and the Overseas Investment Office have both made... Overseas Investment Office barely got it through. The High Court said, go back and have a look at the blueprint. But that's okay. That's fine. We're talking about Labour's new policy here. The way I see it, and I've got the act in front of me, it actually waters down. Section 17 waters down the act. It's kind of funny because what they're going to have to do now is hold James Cameron to actually stay here for 88 days over three years. And if he's one day short, Labour's policy says they'll confiscate his land. Oh, no, that doesn't say confiscate, Cam. Coe, what it says is... I heard him talk. Sorry, Josie. He said to Mike this morning that if the benefits don't materialise, then they would think about confiscating the land. He said it on my costume this morning. If you buy land in New Zealand and you say, I'm going to deliver this many jobs and we're going to do X, Y and Z, and there'll be this much research and development, new technology, and then you just, you know, go away and don't deliver any of that. Clearly there has to be some kind of penalty. What Shearer said very clearly was that we haven't worked through any penalty issues yet. But look, the big thing is let's look at this another way. Land in New Zealand is so expensive, partly because increase in foreign bias has bettered up. So we're actually keeping, potentially keeping a generation of New Zealand farming out of the way of doing it. Josie, I've got to go, Cameron. Josie's dead right there. I think it's predicted that if they go through with it. Mind you, it's tough enough, as it is in my view, but farm prices could drop by 15%. See how the farmers like that. But thank you, Josie. Josie Pagani and Cameron Slater. And he's talked ZB. It's now nine to six.