 Well, hello everyone. Welcome. I'm Mel Hauser. I use she they pronounce. I'm the executive director here at All Brains Belong. Welcome to Brain Club. So lovely to see you all. Let me share screen and get us oriented. Okay, so today is our monthly book chat. This month we'll be discussing themes from Dr. Devin Price's new book on learning shame. Just by way of orienting us as we always do as we start Brain Club. This of course is our education space for the collective ABB community to provide education about neurodiversity to bring people together and contribute to systems change by shifting social norms. This is a space where people can collectively learn and unlearn together. Feel safe and for many people experience something that might be quite different from the outside world with the idea that by promoting showing up authentically and perhaps new ways of thinking and being that's and then you go out into the rest of the world and that's how we change the world. And although All Brains Belong has lots of different types of programs, this one is not for medical or mental health advice. It's not a support group. This is for education. All forms of participation are okay here at Brain Club. You can have your video on or off, but even if it's on, we don't expect anything of you. Please feel free to walk or move or fidget or stem or eat or whatever else needs doing. You definitely do not need to look at the camera or any other neuronormative construct. You're welcome to communicate however you are most comfortable. There will be a portion of tonight's Brain Club with a prerecorded video that will play, but we'll have plenty of time for discussion. But while the video is playing, you'll have access to the chat. And then during discussion, you're welcome to use mouth words or the chat. We also have private messaging enabled, so you're welcome to send private messages or questions that way. And in addition to affirming all aspects of identity in order to keep the space safe for all participants, we just ask that if you are bringing up something that was distressing to you, we ask that you discuss the impact of those experiences, not the details of the events themselves. Close captioning is enabled, you just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of Zoom, you might see the close captioning live transcript icon. But if not, look for the more dot dot dot and choose show subtitles. You can do the same and choose hide subtitles if you want to turn them off. And that's my visual support to open the chat box. Oh, wow, there's a lot of chat activity. Hello, everybody. Speaking of the chat, one of the things that we strive to do in neuro-inclusive space is to navigate conflicting access needs. And the chat is a good example of conflicting access needs. For many community members, the chat is a way of being able to have access to communicate without mouth words. It eases working memory, you don't have to keep your idea in working memory until it's time to get a turn. You can just blur it out in the chat. Also allows for more processing time and direct engagement back and forth between community members. However, there are other community members for whom the chat is like visual clutter and it's distracting. There's even startle response to when it pops up and it moves quickly sometimes. It might be hard to follow. So as best we can suggest some strategies for navigating conflicting access needs in the chat. After the first time, if you're a person for whom the chat is problematic, after the first time it pops up, try not closing the window. This way, when new messages come on, it won't pop anymore. It'll just, the new message will replace the old message, but it won't have that like startle thing. That's one option. Another option is to disable chat preview. So on your Zoom toolbar, the chat box, there's this little up caret. If you click on that, it'll show you the words show chat previews and it has a checkbox next to it. If you click on that, it'll get rid of the checkbox and that's how you disable chat preview. Okay, we're ready. Actually, before we dive into our topic, we wanted to just preview because of course, next week is a new month already and our theme for next month is Autistic Culture. Thank you, Sarah. There's registration link in the chat. Got a lot of really good topics and I want to draw your attention to, twice a year, we have like special brain clubs that we draw a larger audience in or like really trying to make a splash on our content and so this is our third annual presentation of the shifting the autism narrative, the impact of stigma on health. So I'll be the presenter and we kind of go into like all the things that the healthcare system does that are really bad for health. So we hope we hope that you'll join us. Okay, here we go. So Dr. Devin Price is an autistic social psychologist, professor and author and this is like hands down like one of the best books I've read in a really long time and we're going to we're going to walk through some of the themes with a combination of books excerpted from the book and our all brains belong staff team. Some of us we had a we had a little conversation about the book that we recorded that will play for you. So systemic shame, Devin writes, I suffer from systemic shame, the powerful self loathing belief that says I am to blame for the circumstances I'm moving in and that the only way my problems can be overcome is through individual goodness and grit. Of course the more a person suffers the more our economic system and public institutions are primed us to convince us that it's all our fault. Devin writes, I'd chased and by the way this book you know so it's it's it's this really interesting combination of both personal reflection of a trans autistic person's experience of personally navigating systemic shame along with history and the social psychology of shame. So it's really a fusion of all those things which I think make this book particularly really powerful. So Devin writes, I'd chased after achievements and approval all my life, believing it would grant me self love. When my external goals have been met, I felt even more empty. It felt like nothing I ever did mattered and never could because none of it would ever help me stop being me. When we think about all of the different ways that humans are othered and harmed, very appropriately Devin writes that the needs of multiple marginalized people absolutely have to be centered and it's really important to recognize the shared root causes of suffering for all people these broken power systems that are hurting everybody. Systemic shame prevents us from recognizing we share these struggles with the majority of other beings on the planet. Rather than coming together to demand better of existing systems or building alternative ones together, systemic shame consumes us with fear and self loathing and pushes us apart. Devin introduces this framework of three levels of systemic shame, personal shame, interpersonal shame and global shame. Personal shame being self loathing and self blame, a process that starts really early where we become desperate to hide our feelings, our needs, our true self. The next level, interpersonal shame, blaming and shaming others who share identities and experiences with us because they reflect the qualities we've been conditioned to hate in ourselves. And then building upon that global shame that humanity as a whole is filled with bad people. Rice writes that personal shame is pushed on us most directly when we're young through the many tiny rejections and social judgments that later develop into a broader world view. Kids are very good at trying to figure out what society's unspoken rules are because learning those rules protects them from being rejected or abandoned. Children appear to be hardwired to find and adopt the attitudes of the culture that surround them, even when those attitudes are cruel and unfair. Evan Price identifies the values of systemic shame and there's a huge overlap of course with so many of the themes we talk about at Brain Club that all of these aspects of white supremacy that is just so infused into everything, perfectionism, individualism, consumerism, the idea of personal wealth, personal responsibility being more important than the collective. We talk about your independence as opposed to interdependence, preserving the status quo. Systemic shame leaves us isolated, mistrustful, and completely stuck when it comes to imagining a more enriching, more connected way to lead our lives. So with that we'll watch this this pre-recorded conversation from our ABB team about these themes and welcome to use the chat as we go and then after the video I have a couple more slides with some quotes from the book to how do we move out of this and then we'll have time for discussion. Alina I have no volume. Oh is it the like share screen button with the checkbox thing? I hate that. Do you unshare and reshare? Have that. Not yet. Still nothing? Still nothing. I think I have somebody coming to assist me. If you unshare. What I'll do is I can zigzag and we can go out of order. Just gonna just there's a conversation in the chat unfolding about the idea of like learning about you know discovering your brain. Oh yeah it's working that's good. Good to go. Good to go. I see something play out for my child that reminds me of something that was really hard is really hard for me particularly socially. I so desperately want to shut that down because it comes from a place of not wanting my child to suffer in the ways that I've suffered but what it actually does is it contributes I think as Devin Price writes the like many tiny rejections and social judgments that actually imparts my child's broader worldview about that there is one correct way to be and then I layer on the judgment of myself for doing it. I talk with a lot of families and a lot of times we're talking about you know parents wanting to make sure that the way they're talking about themselves is not reflecting things that they want to see in their kid and I think that I think we talk about this a lot with like body image and you know if somebody's talking about how disgusting they feel in their body and how much they want to lose weight and how much they hate how their body looks right now and I look like their body that's going to make me feel that even though they're talking about themselves and so that way that like internalized shame really spreads to everybody else and the you know I want the way that I the way that I want to talk about bodies and body image or brains and how they work or anything to my kids I want to talk about that way to myself because that's the only way they're going to learn to um and yeah it's just it's a really I think that's how that's how those cycles perpetuate of you know I you know whatever I've always hated my body so I'm going to teach my kids to hate their body I'm going to teach their kids to hate their body whereas if we can reverse that we can we can stop it and then change the narrative. It's really difficult to acknowledge that like the world can be a really hard place and that doesn't mean you should hide these parts of yourself that might make it harder to be in the world and I think those are really difficult things you know I think we often hear that you know I want to I want to hair my kids for the world stuff's going to be hard and I want to you know I want to I want to make it easier for everybody I want to make it easier for myself too and it's it's really hard to to do that without falling into the okay I'm gonna you know conform myself and fit myself into the round hole when I'm a square peg. Also kids are really um what's the word perceptive so usually they get the cue they know they know so it's about also reinforcing that like when we see a shift in them like hey what you know what why are you uncomfortable right now or what what's going on that's putting up your radar I mean often they they know just like we know and we knew then and we just didn't have the language for it they know now too and now we have the language for it right so we can encourage them by just like body language cues and allowing the conversation and it's going to happen you know uncomfortable things are going to happen all day every day so it's about like giving them when we recognize the cues in them that there there's something going on that they're uncomfortable with reinforcing that like yeah you do feel that and that is whatever is happening is happening and I think what you just said like when when you feel uncomfortable if you don't have language to understand why you make up a narrative and that narrative is I'm broken I'm defective and so like what would it be like to say I'm uncomfortable and there's like a differential for that um it's it's like it's not just that I'm broken like there's other things on the menu to possibly explain that which is just like these are not my people these are not my people you know they they they're talking about something I'm not interested in okay I'm gonna just go I'm gonna go to another environment where I'm comfortable right because I think it's important to point out that you know those those narratives we make up for for ourselves that were we're different we're broken and everybody else is doing this we need to try harder like those don't come from nowhere those come from a society that tells us that all the time um they're the narratives that society creates that then we just kind of internalize and bring to our own experience and there's nothing to counter it because people are not authentic right so like I what comes to me I've like sort of like my my brain stores memories like in these little boxes and categories so like I have the social gathering bucket right and so um all the times I've gone to social gatherings that I have felt uncomfortable at and not known what to do and like I don't know I'm gonna like spend like 20 minutes pouring a drink because like I've got nothing else to do I've got to look busy um like like like just like all those like I bet I was like in retrospect I bet I was not the only one who felt uncomfortable but no one says it like no one names it so you look around you're like there's 50 people and they all look comfortable and there's me I'm very uncomfortable what does that mean about me in one of the chances are everybody's uncomfortable unless they have so bought into their mask right like they've so bought into you know the the brain rules of like this is what I do I come in and I pour a drink and then I like talk about myself I don't know what that's like but but like I think there are people who like they they and I think that that actually for me connects to what what Devin Price wrote about about this idea of like the personal shame progressing to the interpersonal shame is like I have built my mask around blocking out the things that have been taught to me are bad that the characteristics of me I am hiding them and what I put for this everything else and so that is I buy into that and I reinforce that and I protect that yeah I think a lot of times people joke of joke about like oh I don't I don't have my own personality I've just created a personality from taking the pieces of all the people around me and I think that it just it it can bring that track can really easily bring you to a place of not knowing even your like what you're saying not even knowing yourself who your true self is because you've really fully gone into that into the other persona that you've created and I think we see that sometimes I talk with people when you know people when people are first learning about their own brains and learning about you know neurodivergence and there that can be a big grief process for a lot of different reasons but I think one of them is you know I'm losing this this this version of myself that I used to be this you know mass version this maybe like sometimes it feels like a completely different person and it feels like you're you're losing that person sometimes and that can that can be a intense and and a process that has a lot of you know grief and emotions with that sometimes sometimes people have to shed relationships because it becomes too hard to like you can't go back you can't put it back on and so you're either going to show up with this person that like doesn't even really know you and see what happens or like I just that feels like I have too much dissonance here I'm just gonna like new life now does anybody else relate to that yep I think energetically um um as I have been in the process of unmasking and I think that I can sense others masks before whereas when I was masking myself more heavily you don't even realize it or notice it and now I think that I can see when others are unmasking and that I can really hone in on the transparency and authenticity of the true self I don't know if anyone else has felt the energetic yes of it too I have chills right now applying the structure of like personal shame interpersonal shame global shame like I think that when I spot a mask it feels unsafe to me and I I I I have a hard time engaging now because I also like energetically like perceive that I'm like I don't know where I stand with you because you're fake and I have put that in a bucket and it's it's not and I think that's what Devin Chris wrote about like don't do that like don't do that it's that we share this with most people on the planet so but but it's involuntary it's automatic it's limbic it's just you know but like okay now I'm aware of it can I zoom out and recognize like we are sharing this struggle can we just name the thing and if we can name the thing that gives us a chance to reimagine yeah because if you put it in that you're pocket you might if you put it in the unsafe pocket you might miss the magic and they may miss the magic too right because you're not open to say I think that it's um it's also acknowledging that unmasking and showing up as your true authentic self is not safe for everybody in every situation and um you know we we want to make the world a better place to be able to to people are able to do that in every part of their lives um and I guess maybe it's reducing the shame around sometimes masking and sometimes you know showing up as a mass version of yourself to be able to get the thing done whatever that is um that you know it's it's not it's it's not a complete moral failing necessarily if you do do that sometimes or if you do kind of put those up sometimes absolutely um I recently I might edit this whole thing out although we see my trend about that um so I'm I'm doing this cross class dialogues class through think again and I am finding I am masking so heavily I'm not masking my neurodivergence or my disability I talk about that all the time um but I am so consumed with how I'm being perceived in that space that every single detail of what I share or don't share I mean I'm exhausted after that class and that's how life used to be like all the time and it's not like it's not a moral failing to mask it's like your limbic system just like makes you stay with the chaos by hiding anything about myself like it is anything more than like the neutral like what I have decided or society has taught me is a neutral thing which gets in the way it gets in the way of connection I think I think that if we if we can show up as our authentic selves those who are not usually either disappear from the scene or they they find themselves wanting to open up and move towards it you know because often when you show up as your authentic selves the ones who are not showing up as their authentic selves are just they disappear they're gone from the conversation from the room because it's terrifying it's terrifying so it's actually you may feel terrified too but they feel more terrified that's been my experience which doesn't make it easier it's not none of it's easy but it's it's definitely I think easier to show up when you know you're being your true self and it's hard when I think to see your point like you may not even really know what that is like what is who is my true self I don't know I just I don't know um and and maybe it starts from a place of like just even recognizing like when do I feel safe and comfortable when do I not and like reflecting on the patterns of that like I think that's why it's important to have to like continually I guess continually outreach to people I'm thinking like from an organization sense but like just continue to have that openness of you know knowing that people are gonna be at a place where they're ready to engage in a community like that at different places and having to be like a continued opening I think we talk similarly about you know when when somebody's in burnout and a really nice thing can be like I like being offered to do things with people even if most of the time I'm gonna say no because I just can't but it's it's nice to continually be offered and know that if I say no that doesn't mean I'm not gonna be offered to do that again or I'm not gonna be able to offer to be engaging in that again um and and I guess just having that having that openness of you know if or when you're ever ready to join come on in absolutely like it's not like the offer expires maybe maybe the one more thing we can talk about just like I think because I think our folks at Brink Club like you know we're like stuck in the trenches and we see sometimes when we talk about these topics we see in the chat like well I don't know how to tell people that I'm too tired to hang out with them like like we're at this place right where I don't even know how to get started like I know that it's just like I have to I have to do the thing people expect me to do the thing where do people like how do people start I like to think about like what it doesn't necessarily have to be all or nothing like what part of your life can you show up as your two authentic self and even if that's you know one one Brink once a week or one person in your life or one aspect you know I think we talk about this with um with like with gender diversity and with the idea that you know you in the process of coming out you may start by just coming out to your family and friends at first and not coming out at work for a year or so until that feels more comfortable and that that's that's okay to kind of do it in step sometimes and um identify those those safe places and those safe people even if it's a really small group or or even just if it's by yourself yeah I think that's a really good point about brain club even like group the group medical appointments that's like where your confidence is going to come from you know it's like being in a room with people that are having the same struggle which will build your confidence which will have you show up in other spaces that is not so terrifying um I think that's that's a huge part is like building confidence and then you can say hey I'm feeling like introvert today I'm feeling extrovert you know whatever the language you want to use is and it's like it's no big deal and people be like oh I get it you know it's not and we're not rejecting you it's not that I don't want to go to your thing or show up at the meeting it's you know I'm just taking care of myself right I don't have spoons yeah normalizing that right I think what would helps a lot of a lot of folks um in group medical appointments is to explicitly be told that there are other people who feel uncomfortable like you feel uncomfortable there's a lot of people who feel uncomfortable in fact that's like why we made this preview video or why we wrote this agenda or like because this is like a thing and oh okay um because there's this assumption kind of like me going to the terrible dinner party um there's this assumption that everyone else looks like they're comfortable and that I'm I'm the one left out nobody wants like that feeling feels so bad so I'm just gonna avoid I'm gonna avoid I'm gonna withdraw from the things that make me feel that way that's like building muscle memory then right when you show up in the group medical appointments or you show up at the brain club and you're like building your muscle memory like oh this is a safe place and then you recognize what safe places are and yeah your body recognizes what it feels like to be safe and comfortable and your authentic self and not masking yeah and then even if you are in an uncomfortable space your muscle memory your mind will remember what it feels like on your body to be in a safe place and then you can carry that with you absolutely and because you know that there's this difference now because before maybe you've never actually felt safe um before it's like oh like social interaction it's all like that what that is it just that I feel so awful because there's something wrong with me so I had much yourself and but really now there's this distinction there's some situations where I feel comfortable and some situations where I don't and I'm the same person in either way so what does that mean it means that the environment influences how I feel it's not about that I'm broken that's something's wrong with me that I might feel uncomfortable right now it's like what is the environment around me and can I trust my limbic system and be okay if it's saying unsafe or safe and trust my intuition and I think it's a process you know getting used to trusting yourself since we're so used to not trust at least for me I'm not used to trusting myself it's been a process well I think that's part of this whole personal shame conversation around not only do I not trust myself but I've taught myself that my intuitive drive is wrong and in fact I've been taught to hate it loathe it blame it for all kinds of things and so we have this brain body disconnect where it's like well you know just like stuff it stuff it stuff it um because it's not normal it's not normal like stop being afraid stop being concerned stop being anxious like just stop it stuff it and and and we wonder why we should touch with intuition I think of I think it's you know the same process as somebody who's spent a lot of my life died in a lot of my life very intentionally ignoring hunger cues and pushing those down it's no wonder that I can't sense those now like it's it's no wonder that you know I have a hard time trusting my gut or feeling my instincts or whatever that is because those have been pushed down for so long my gut says I don't want to do the thing and I wish myself to do it anyway that resonates with me yeah yeah so it's a process it's a process of just like what would it look like what would it look like to go with intuition and see what happens like it you might over call it you know you might over call it like a lot but I think it's like practice it's like what Olivia said about muscle memory like you actually have to practice like all right well my my my my gut says do this and I'm gonna do that and you do that enough of the time and it becomes a thing where like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go with that because I think you know it's it's it's like recovering from shame like yet we do this in community we do this by hearing that other people are navigating this but the intuition thing like that is also I think part of part of part of like it's part of the the healing process Selena no problem sorry for the like wildly conservative looking uh suggested videos after this yeah it was like I was like what even is that like that is coming up yeah not a browser that I use so I guess it's just assuming that I'm super into conservative weirdos I'm not my at least this browser window played the volume though so there we go all right anything else you needed for me no thank you so much all right have a good one guys you too so where do we go from here someone in the chat before the video I said something like you know stories can have a happy ending that's that's that's that's what we're shifting now what I'm really longing for on some level is to stop feeling as if I'm broken and trapped inside a world that was not built for me moving beyond systemic shame means working to build vulnerable relationships with other people witnessing firsthand the restorative effects of being fully seen and recognizing that even in its imperfections humanity can be loved and trusted Devin Price uses the term expansive recognition to mean the reassuring and grounding sense that you are unbreakably connected to the rest of humanity and that all sides of you including your flaws are part of what keeps you bonded to everybody else building new relationships comes down to two principles consistency and authenticity if you keep showing up regularly and keep honestly expressing yourself in your viewpoints I think as Liz wrote in the chat of spraying your authenticity eventually the right people will take a shine to you when people disagree with you or don't understand your perspective you'll have the kinds of conflicts that are enriching and worth having pain is an act of avoidance it's pulling away and hiding motivated by mistrust and fear the way we escape systemic shame is by rejecting the desire to withdraw and instead choose to embrace moving toward the very people we fear judging ourselves and revealing the pain we've been in it's only when we reveal our flaws that we have the opportunity to realize that our struggles are shared and are in fact the product of oppressive systems that target us all none of us is broken nobody is a failure it's the systems that have failed us and as soon as we recognize that we can move beyond them and create something better so with that I would love to hear oh Sarah's got another quote Sarah writes it's easiest to experience self-compassion when we believe we did the best we could with the resources we had at that time but no one does their best all the time sometimes we make decisions we just can't be proud of from any angle when we can't endorse reality as good we can still strive to accept it and therein lies healing even if it isn't pretty it's like the whole radical acceptance thing I think another theme of this book um oh I'll I'll hold my comment Sarah go for it sorry I didn't see your I didn't see your hand in the corner oh you're Mike saying thank you um I can raise it after you started talking um I just I I really first of all Sarah I really appreciate you bringing out all the quotes you have um in chat it's been you've been bringing some great quotes in and I I think this one really brings out the the aspect of perfectionism that's in um systemic shame and I think how I think we were just um talking about this at a um topic about burnout the other day about how you know it's really hard to let go of that like I need to do everything 100 perfectly and sometimes to get through shame to get through burnout whatever that is you need to be able to do the minimum required you need to be able to do what needs to do to get through and that's really really hard sometimes um and getting through that aspect of shame was just the part I really liked absolutely especially then you layer on like the common autistic pattern of replaying a situation over and over and over and over and over and over again like you're just stacking it up Michelle um I have not read this book but I read other Devin Price books and I've actually um been privileged to have some conversations with Devin and they've been wonderful so I will go and read this book um but I think the theme of this book will be very helpful to my parent support group because um a number of the parents have been um trying to understand how to deal with adult children who are not accepting any help and part of it may be because they're going through this kind of systemic shame thing it's a possibility so um I'll suggest they take a look at this but the other thing I'm thinking of is is if you look at the um themes that Devin Price puts forward it seems as though you need to strike a balance you've got to put yourself out there enough to create sufficient connections to the rest of humanity so that you're not isolated so that you're creating sufficient connection so that you're not creating kind of personal shame or individual self-loathing but you can't do it so much that you're using up all your spoons so that you're feeling defeated and you end up feeling like a failure because you're so depleted um and that would put you right into systemic failure so it's kind of like what's the right balance how do you know what that is you know so that that's one of the the challenges that I thought of immediately absolutely I don't think there is a right answer and I think it's it's this journey right it's this journey of discovering your needs um and and and and and if someone has an access need for a certain amount of pacing your activity like this is all just gonna you know everything's going to be connected to everything um but I but I I I do think that one of the themes we haven't directly talked about yet from this book was just the idea that recovering from systemic shame Devin Price writes cannot be done in isolation that it needs to be done in community it's about zooming out recognizing these broken systems that shape to your self-narrative from toddler hood onwards um and I think I mean honestly that's like what we try to do at brainclub right like so it's it's the idea of you know you hear your story or elements of your experience kind of reflected back to you through someone else's story and wow I guess I'm not the only one who experienced that huh I love on uh page 188 when um Devin Price says it was you know it's talking about kind of coming into his authentic self and says it was like a series of soft warm street lights had illuminated a path before me would have been blocked by darkness and I just thought like oh it gave me chills and I thought that that's kind of what we do at brain club the important that like you know showing up connecting like connection doesn't have to look a particular way connection is not like going to a dinner party that's not connection I mean it is for some people but not for all brains and certainly not for for a lot of brains that are here right now um but you know it's it's it's it's connection is locking on a brain club really connection is writing a lot or connection is it can make it it's it can be anything I thought uh hello everyone I I've I've I've spent a lot of years you know looking at my own chain you know years ago it was uh oh gosh um it was that preacher guy that wrote a lot of those books on game but toxic shame and he had some good ideas but it wasn't based on mullah science and then over years counselors passed along grenade ground which that was very valuable at least at least what she does is based on science um but you know it's interesting I I well I was going to ask can I still ask you to know or anyone else who's read the book um you know whether you're familiar with grenade grounds work and what what the differences you saw between the two books are um I what I'm picking up on you know is you know the systemic shame is you know that's not normally an issue for newer typical people I assume um and so that's not something that's really addressed uh with brandy browns or I don't think what a great question so um I I am familiar with brandy browns work and in fact um I'm gonna it may be if sarah and lizzie uh or lizzie can find it faster than I will but eventually like one of us will put the link in the chat we did a I think I think actually it was our first ever book chat or maybe second ever book chat in 2023 was um I thought it was just me but it isn't by brandy brown um there's a lot of similarities between that particular book and this book I think but I think where for me um it was like using this lens of social justice onto this conversation you know brandy browns four steps about like so I recognize I'm in shame I tell someone they say me too um and then I can zoom out and then wonder like what what set me up personally individually to experience that shame um and then what are the social like the social forces that set me up individually so it's about the like the individual experience of shame but this is talking about like the collective the collective that in the transformational experience of recognizing that everyone is struggling with this everyone is being impacted and harmed by these systems that shape your narrative and so that's anyway and and Devin Price cites brandy browns work like there's definitely like pieces that are are are right in there but I think like for me the biggest difference is the shift from the individual to the collective community based healing hi sarah go for it I don't know if I'm going to be able to articulate this well but I'll just anyway I'll try um for me it's there I can't get away from like my I literally there's there's like this I guess I look at the evolutionary biology and I like and if you and if I follow polyvagal theory on the evolutionary biology I like literally have two body systems that are in contradiction and and I mean I have a body system that's all about like like the stuff that actually makes me capable of like regenerating cells is incredibly vulnerable that's the reason it needs this really mean system that protects it and it's like it's like this really vulnerable part of me made a pact with the devil and I don't think and and that's the human then for me that's the human condition it's like this incredibly vulnerable part of me um that evolved in that if you look at how the how they think that how they think life evolved on the planet earth like it evolved in in a context that was energy rich and predator free and then all of a sudden somebody like 500 million years later decided to eat somebody else and the next thing you know we've got a sympathetic nervous system you know and we're all terrorizing each other with claws and fangs and and so and so we've got these two natures in ourselves like the fundamental nature of us is like is loving and vulnerable but it's also tremendously deeply hidden because the outside world we experience is incredibly dangerous and so we've got a protector that has to be fierce but it's not our core nature and so we're in contradiction in ourselves and I don't think our society collectively has reckoned with that well I think we're in denial about how hard it is to be human which makes sense I mean we didn't have this we didn't have we didn't even have a clue of what we were up against you know until like you know the last 50 or maybe you know 50 maybe a little more but but around 50 years we we really haven't had a very clear sense of what we were up against but but we're really up against this huge thing and we've been up against it for all of human existence and and we haven't figured out how to deal with it and and so we've been shaming and blaming each other hoping it would work and and and and it doesn't and it's not gonna and and and and and so we're struggling with how to transform it and we're struggling and and individually I'm vulnerable to it because you know my my own body is made a pact with the devil and individually the culture is vulnerable to it because you know there's a loving part of us and there's a devil part of us and when we get threatened we're the devil and when we're not threatened we're like all you know we're all like kumbaya so I think we're just really we're really struggling to come to terms with human nature and what to do about the contradictions that are inherent in our nature and and how to and and how to like you know be together with that and with those contradictions on planet earth and I think just naming naming some of these these things I mean I think I yeah I mean I what you just said Sarah reminds me of the part of the book that talks about how like young children pick up these messages specifically because it it's a way of staying safe so I adopt these messages I internalize these messages about what is good and bad because this is the way this path is how I stay safe and then that's exactly what like that's exactly what breeds that first level of personal shame I mean that makes so much sense now I mean what you just said I mean that yeah we're just trying to bring this little little vulnerable beings trying to stay safe or aligning with what the culture says and and because that's how we get safety and then you know and and without even knowing the implications of doing that yes that's exactly right and then by by the time there's any awareness of that it's like I don't want to say it's too late because like we're all doing the work of unlearning now um but we're at a place of needing to unlearn as opposed to like what would it be like for you know every child to actually grow up knowing that there's not one right way to be a person yeah you know that I have a pastoral counseling background and and it it kind of gives a new this sort of cultural critique thing kind of just gives me gives a new meaning to the ye must be born again thing you know it's like it's like it's like there's there came a point in my life when I had to throw out everything I thought I knew and start to look at my life from a you know as if I didn't know anything at all and start to and start to question everything so hard to do which is why we do it together so with that um thank you thank you all so much for being here tonight um and I just want to also name um I know obviously not not uh brain club of course is is not only for autistic people by any means um but many people are sensitive um to some of the harmful messages that come in April so April being you know autism awareness month autism acceptance month and there's like a sometimes some really performative things that go out go out there in the world so I just wanted to like name for those of you for whom April itself is a a trigger and you know an induction of systemic shame like anyway um just please stay connected with us um that's why our theme for next month's brain club is autistic culture um where we will be shining a light on some aspects of um community members experiences um in in in relationships in healthcare and you know how how we can how we can do it differently so thank you thank you all so much for being here and being part of our community we'll see you next Tuesday bye