 and go. Hello and welcome everyone to this panel during this important climate week. Tomorrow marks the fifth anniversary of the Paris Agreement and today basically literally as we speak the European Council Summit is happening and they're negotiating the climate law which is at the heart of the European Green Deal, the flagship project of the Thunder Lion Commission. My name is Lisa Tostado and I'm speaking to you from Paris today, the city that has become so symbolic in the climate community. But I'm usually based in Brussels where I work for the Heinrich Beuhl Foundation. That is the green German political foundation that is affiliated with the Green Party that is represented in Germany's parliament. And today we're getting together to discuss where we are at with respect to climate action five years after this important climate accord. We will debate the geopolitical aspects of climate negotiations but also the social impacts of climate policies themselves on different levels of government and we will reflect on how we can actually get on a pathway that is compatible with the 1.5 degrees objective that was outlined in the Paris Agreement. This web conference is being translated simultaneously into French and Spanish. So on the bottom of the livestream there is a small globe button on the right hand side of the red dot with live. So you can click on this icon and then there's going to be a pop-up and you will be able to choose your channel, French Spanish or English if you don't do anything. And just be aware that the interpretation might not work for people joining on their tablets or phones but it should work fine on your browsers. This is also participatory so please be not shy and ask questions at any time. We will have a first round of five-minute inputs by our panelists but then we will move to like a more conversation style format. So as I said this week is considered a climate week and yet it's again a little bit overshadowed by the never-ending discussions on lockdown measures etc and the pandemic even though it's so closely linked to the distraction of our environment and biodiversity it is also why the initial declarations by the UK government and others for 2020 to be a year of climate action have had to be downscaled and these days as well as the following months will be crucial to ensure public awareness that urgent climate action is needed now and that the recovery of our societies from that health and economic crisis must be a green recovery in all aspects and that is why the Green European Foundation and the European Green Party are organizing this Greening COP26 online hub for climate. It is to provide like a space for the Green European to keep the momentum alive in the movement and we have great panelists today to inspire you all to do so bringing in different perspectives from different countries so I'm really looking forward to having a conversation with them all. Let me briefly present each of them to you. So we first have the great honor to have minister Leonore Gewesler with us so the Austrian federal minister for climate action, environment, energy, mobility, innovation and technology since January 2020 so almost a year and she's also the deputy chairwoman of the Green Parliamentary Group and previously served as director of the Green European Foundation so thank you for being with us Leonore. Thanks for having me. We also have Mina Cholu. She is the they are the Federation of Young European Greens spoke co-spokesperson and a transqueer and feminist activist and their political work has in particularly focused on LGBTQI rights and environmental issues and the interlinkages so I'm looking forward to hearing from you Mina and your insights. We then have Molly Scott Cato a green economist and expert on cooperatives and social enterprise sustainable finance monetary policy and tax policy and in May 2014 Molly was elected as the first green to represent Southwest England and Gibraltar in the European Parliament where she served until Brexit and today Molly is still national Green Party speaker on finance and on Brexit so I'm looking forward to hearing from from the UK. Thank you very much for helping us stay close to Europe we appreciate that. We next have Monsieur François Germain he's a specialist of environmental geopolitics and migration governance at the Université de Liège where he's also the director of the Hugo Observatory and he lectures on climate change and migration policies in different universities including Sciences Po where I also went by the way so you were also my professor and he also heads the Observatory on defense and climate of the French Ministry of Defense and is a lead author of the IPCC so welcome François Germain. And last but not least we have Timouti Paris who holds a PhD in economics that's titled the political economy of degrowth and his dissertation explores the economic implications of the idea of degrowth and post-growth and he's also the lead author of the coupling debunked evidence and arguments against green growth that was that can be found on the website of the European Environmental Bureau so thank you for being with us Timouti. So the fifth anniversary of the Paris Accord is also so important because it will test government's willingness to step up action to cut greenhouse gas emissions. The climate plans known as the nationally determined contributions and DCs define policies lasting until 2025 or 2030 and are the core building blocks of the Paris Agreement and each five years countries have to update these targets and they have to be more ambitious and that also applies to the European Union and the Twitter has been very active this morning that the leaders on the European Council Summit have actually agreed on a minus 55 percent target. So Leonore the first question would go to you as you are an insider and negotiator yourself on the climate law in the Envy Council. So what have your expectations been on the EU summit yesterday and today? How do you take the the news that are that are coming? Is the agreement on the reduction target a success? Do you think the EU will be a role model with this climate law and what are also the implications for the member states that also have to implement policies to actually reach that target? Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot again for the invitation and it feels very nice to be back in a Jeff event. So thanks a lot for having me today. Indeed this was not only an exciting week but an exciting night with a lot of discussions a lot of back and forth but I think that's the most important result a result. A European Council that agreed unanimously on at least minus 55 percent as a goal for our 2030 ambition. So I'd like to maybe embedded a bit in the discussion in the in the discussion we or also the framework of the Paris Agreement because yes we are celebrating the anniversary of the Paris Agreement tomorrow and I think that's indeed something to celebrate. It was a historic step but also we have to be clear the agreement was never an end in itself. The agreement itself is not climate action yet. The agreement was the start of a journey the start of a journey to take real action to realize the objective to stay well below 2 percent to pursue efforts to limit temperature increase to 1.5 degrees. So it was the beginning of a journey and since that beginning I think that's that's the time span we should look at what happened in the last five years and what happened also then in the last week and I think on the one hand side we see that a lot has happened in our societies a lot has happened since 2015 young people who take to the streets who who fight for the future who step up and actually ask politics to deliver. In Austria we've had a popular initiative on climate action so there's there is a lot of change in in societies and leaders being called to action. Also we see on the on the international stage we see a lot of a lot of dynamics and the if we if we look at what the announcement that China did the announcement that Japan South Korea did if we look at what President-elect Biden in the United States said not only to rejoin the Paris Agreement but also to make sure that the US is CO2 neutral by 2050. There is a lot of there is a sense of change you might add finally you might add much too late but there is something moving now and I think all of this also goes back to the fact that the climate agreement that the Paris climate agreement now plays out its strengths that we have this five-year ambition cycle that now we are called upon to deliver a better NDC a higher NDC an ambitious NDC and so this this makes me and even though we are in the midst of an historic health crisis we are discussing we are getting serious on on climate action so that's for me after the very positive side of this in terms of the agreement that we that we just had that it was a tense debate it was an intense debate but I think the most important result is indeed that we have a result we have a unanimous agreement of at least minus 55% CO2 reduction towards for 2030 but also there this is not an ending itself it's a starting point it's not only a starting point for the negotiations with the European Parliament in the trial to find it to conclude also the the the climate law and everything that comes with it more importantly it's a starting point for a lot of legislative and policy debate because now the next step is that we need to deliver in every single legislative file in every single policy file towards achieving these goals so I think the Austria supported the minus at least minus 55% Austria is always very strong in saying this needs to be a scenario where Europe 2050 is 100 renewable so that that we we need to look at at this as a transformation towards 100 renewable scenario and the and if we look at at what we have on the table I think this I think this is really a good starting point it's a necessary starting point it's a it's important starting point but it's it's good that we have it now as you can see it's been a long night I'm happy that we have it now because I think one of the key messages also that that I think we need to take forward now in the next weeks and months after these intense political debates that we had in the last hours and also weeks is that we need to take seriously leaving no one behind we all know that we have certain groups we have certain countries that are really heavily affected by by measures that will have maybe an even bigger task than Austria has in in this transformation towards a climate neutral society however we need to make sure that leaving no one behind doesn't mean holding a continent back and I think this this is the balance we need to strike now in moving forward that we cannot adapt adapt the strategy of a continent on those with the largest obstacles to overcome but we have to make sure we find means we find instruments we we we take everybody on board and by the hand to actually deliver on on these on these goals and I think many of the instruments that have been discussed in the course of the night from the modernization fund to the just transition fund will be extremely important in this regard but with this whole setting in mind I'm I'm happy that we have this agreement and but now the real work starts thank you very much minister leor and it gives line thank you again for even being with us after this night that was really great that you could share some insights and we will definitely come back to your talking points about leaving no one behind and holding not holding an entire continent back and what our instruments to do so we will definitely debate that later on the next my next question now goes to Mina because we also talked about well that at least 55 percent target is a great success and that was not even a thinkable like a couple of years ago that leaders would unanimously agree on that and the youth movement is also to be held responsible for the success I think it has been crucial in putting higher pressure on decision makers to consider that topic really a top priority and treated with the urgency it deserves so Mina do you feel like the voices of the youth have been really heard with that European Green Deal and legislation on climate and other environmental issues and I would also be particularly interested in your work around a just transition as Néronor just mentioned as well because just transition has become somewhat of a buzzword and it's often used to refer to alleviating negative economic impacts and regions still heavily dependent on fossil fuels most notably on coal but just as an inclusion and a low carbon transition can also mean much more and refer to many other groups so please Mina share your insights on these topics so first of all I want to thank you on behalf of FYG for having us be part of this very important conversation and it's great to be here let's start with are we do we feel like you voices have been heard I mean yes and no the fact that we do see these improvements the fact that we know that once you once you mobilize enough once you're enough people on the streets with very specific and clear demands we're actually being heard and the movement actually starts to have power and it's not only lobbyists and corporates that are that are that are being listened to but still at the same time it doesn't feel like enough it's this yeah there seems to be like a greenwashing and and youth washing and kind of being like yeah okay we listened to you but now that's enough okay thank you and and so as as FYG we really think that you know we need to balance this like let's kick the polluters out of like the decision-making spaces let's let let governments really commit to not giving any public money for fossil fuel subsidies and also allow citizens to lead also in these processes and not not not just make this a top down approach but really bottom up and then this is this is really like the importance of um citizen action and movements at at COP and what obviously we've been missing this year but we're trying to mobilize online and and keep that momentum going for climate action because it must remain a priority and a political priority and and as has been mentioned previously also in this in this in this greening COP26 hub the the current crisis the COVID-19 crisis only kind of points towards a system a system a systemic issue and one therefore that really must take into consideration all voices and and so I think this brings me to just transition um certainly uh for for FYG we've actually been working on uh this year all of our plans have obviously had to shift online but we've had had the opportunity to discuss with young Greens from across Europe um and with various movement leaders and young leaders what a just transition means to us and and and indeed it being feminist and inclusive is one of those kind of central tenets for us um because without acknowledging that there are pre-existing injustices and that a lot of work does not get paid and a lot of work that doesn't get paid is is actually tends to be work carried out by women um means that unless we kind of acknowledge these discrepancies and this current system that we are in uh then then indeed women will be left behind but also others um so because I mean it would you know I was asked a question at a at another event on security a few weeks ago and it was kind of like but why are the youths like so so angry about climate or like why why do we see that energy on climate but maybe not necessarily always on other issues and I think it's like we really feel the urgency of this and we really feel like we're not part of the conversation and we really feel like you know this is going to impact our lives more than more than anything in the future in the coming years and we already feel its impact on our lives and and yet and yet our voices are not being heard so so again like a just transition that that is an actual plan that is actually giving us options and opportunities for that that makes sense that that are actually future looking and not stuck in the past retraining for for for workers that makes sense and is not kind of stuck within old systems and I think we need to be given spaces to imagine and reimagine and and vision and and we're not seeing that and we're not given that opportunity because often we're we're stuck kind of and I think this is goes for like many movements like when you're stuck trying to just just well work have have have you know your basic needs met then it becomes very very difficult to to imagine and create and and think and revision what the future can look like and and and all that energy gets lost and I think this is like COVID-19 a lot of people said it's great it's also because it's also allowed us to slow down and rethink things and connect and in many ways it has but many essential workers and many workers on the front line including those doing gig work in order to survive have not had that chance to slow down and reconnect and and and start to rethink what can change in their lives and I think this is similar here now when we're when we're talking about managing the climate crisis would what what spaces can be given for and what you know what's what there's only so much space we can't take up and so like what spaces can also be given for us to to to to be there and reimagine a future that is going to be ours more than more than anyone else's and as imagine a future for future generations but again to come back to like some key political priorities for for FYG and link it also to one of the last statements by by minister Leonardo is that of leaving no one behind and and I would like to hear a bit more about what leaving no one behind but not holding a continent back means because I think that Europe and and the colonizing nations of Europe have left so many others behind constantly and have have continued to be like it's a historical but but also very contemporary colonization and neocolonization that is happening and and this is concerning I mean I think you know Europe needs to show solidarity it's not about who gets ahead in the world it's not about progress it's not always about growth but it is about care and health and looking out for each other and taking care of each other it's not an us versus them and so a statement such as not holding a continent back feels to me a bit concerning because is that is that coming from an us versus them like oh but look at us we're so far ahead and like why would we stop when we're like going ahead of this momentum and I think actually we really need to slow down and and Europe and Richard richer countries must pay reparations and and we're not like yes in a context of climate but also in a in a colonial context a lot the reparations have not been paid for years and years of colonialism and and colonialism has had an effect on many communities around the world and including like from a broader perspective it has an effect on our on diversity and gender and sexual diversity and I say this as an LGBT activist but it also has an effect on the fact of like abusing of and and and using uh the resources uh to to to the extent that we are now in this situation so I'll stop there for now but it's it's it's an interesting point leaving no one behind what does that actually mean thanks a lot Mina and definitely there are so many different talking points and we will come back to them especially with respect to climate justice what that actually means when we refer to leave no one behind is that a European centric debate is that an international debate we will definitely come back to that um I would now like to give the floor to Molly because well she's still she's still European but her home country has left the European Union and I would now like to slowly move to the bigger picture of climate negotiations and Molly as you also know both perspective as a scientist I'd like to hear from you um as a like a green economist do you feel like the the green economic academic debate and the political debate actually talk to each other enough and do you think that the pandemic has maybe made politicians uh listen more to to scientists and more generally speaking and I'd also like to hear from you about um the as the UK is going to host the next COP that was originally scheduled in Glasgow for November 2020 but now in November 2021 how have preparations been going have they been overshadowed overshadowed by brexit and what is the climate discourse like in the UK well thank you as I said at the beginning for including me in this European debate I appreciate it so much I am I remain I will always be European as will everybody who lives in my country I'd like to start by answering your question and also linking it back to some of the things that Mina said because I think we've learned a lot from this pandemic and I think we should use the learning and the changing of opinions to really as a springboard into serious action on climate change so for example we've learned that actually governments are incredibly powerful and they can move very swiftly and find the money they need to find when there's a serious crisis and as you pointed out we've also seen the astonishing achievements of developing a vaccine in this incredibly short time frame a hundred years ago when we had the flu pandemic people literally didn't know what a virus was and now within a year we're we have protection actually for the whole world in sight and I think that ability to act globally and to mobilise the knowledge and the skills of our scientists is something that also we need to apply to the climate crisis and I think we've also learned a lot about what really makes us happy and all that kind of crazy jetting around we were doing and you know a lot of the businessmen flying around the world and the commuting these things have had to go and people actually find in many ways they're just as happy we have to temper this with issues about people who are incredibly in poverty and incredible difficulty but still we can rethink what we value about an economy and perhaps we'll come back to that when we have the interactive discussions later on in terms of what's happening in the UK you may have seen there was a so-called 10 point plan for the environment a couple of weeks ago which was actually a shopping list it wasn't a plan as such and we were quite critical of that as the Green Party and our criticism revolved around the fact that essentially what our government was doing which I think we see from a lot of politicians is setting a target for somebody else to reach you know a politician is going to be in the front line for 10 years maybe a bit more and so if they set a target for 2030 they know they will not be held responsible for delivering on that and so essentially what they're doing is sounding good producing hot air and leaving the action for somebody else and so what we said very strongly was not only is this plan nothing like radical enough to actually address what the science tells us needs to be done but it's also promises for the future and what we need is action today so we came out with our own 10 point plan yesterday which is actually drawn from our manifesto and it felt a little bit scary doing this but it's only saying what needs to be said in order to have some chance of staying within two degrees or preferably 1.5 degrees which is still our target as UK Greens and so two things we proposed just to give you an idea of the the sort of scope of what we were saying one was that we need to reduce aviation by 70 percent in the UK by 2030 and we also want to introduce a carbon tax of 100 pounds a tonne now rising to 500 pounds a tonne by 2050 and people are like throwing up their hands in horror but that's the whole point because by 2050 we don't want people to be able to afford to use fossil fuels and like I said to to a colleague you know if you're still using coal by 2050 it's to make jewellery you know not not just to burn and we obviously match that proposal for a very swingeing carbon tax with a dividend paid to citizens and so we always link it to our universal basic income proposal but also to proposals around free home insulation home improvements retrofitting much cheaper public transport so we we get the money from the carbon tax we invest that in transforming society so that we don't need to use the fossil fuels by the time we get to the end of the 10-year period and then again linking back to something Mina said taking a global perspective now I think there's there's an idea which we're beginning to work through in which I would love to work through with Jeff and with other European Green Parties which is about connecting what we're saying about the need for loss and damage taking responsibility for loss and damage as the industrial nations of the world with our historic responsibility for colonization and the enslavement of African people and we've seen earlier in the year and I think it wasn't a coincidence that these two came together the climate crisis and black lives matter they are the same struggle and we can make a political proposal uniting these two if we take the issue of reparations seriously and the British Green Party passed the England and Wales Green Party sorry passed a motion supporting reparations at our autumn conference and we want to make a proposal for COP that connects that cry for not only understanding our history but actually taking responsibility for repairing the damage we've done connect that to the to the damage we've done to the world's climate and again this is something you know I hope people have comments on and we can raise questions on but that's to me a positive proposal in terms of global climate justice and I think the Greens are the people to put this forward and obviously the Green Parties in Europe have that colonial shame that they have to atone for and but the thing is being Greens we also have parties in the countries in Africa and Asia who will be who need to have those reparations made so I'd like to hear what people think of that I'm kind of floating that as a proposal I think it's something exciting that we could put forward as the European Greens thanks thanks a lot again many important and interesting issues raised and I'm sure that the other panelists have something to say about that as well it also ties back to you know the future that we want the future of work and also the future of the entire economic model and Timothy will also I think comment on that one but before talking about the really big systemic picture I'd like to give the floor to François Gémen first of all as you're an expert and member of the IPCC I'd like to hear from you with respect to how policy makers actually listen to science from your perspective how do you see the impact of the Paris Agreement on global climate policy has that been a success what were shortcomings and it's the model itself successful what are still the big fish to fry in Glasgow next year and lastly I know that's a lot of questions but to them I saw that you had a somewhat unpopular opinion that you didn't think that the US rejoining the Paris Agreement was just good news so please some comments from your side sure thank you very much for for having me well that's a lot of questions and I'll try to make a an answer as concise and as consistent as possible first yes as a lead order of the IPCC obviously I can only rejoice of the agreement that was reached at the European level last night and of course we can always say that the agreement could have been more ambitious we can always be critical but at some point we also need to recognize that things are moving in the right direction and I think that it needs to be supported and encouraged at the moment and I have to say that at least in the field of climate change we feel as scientists that we are increasingly listened to by policymakers and this is obviously good news the problem I would say is that if we look beyond the European Union the news are not so reassuring and the coronavirus pandemic and the the the reboot plans have been an opportunity for many government to reinvest billions of dollars or of euros into fossil fuels this is the case in Canada this is the case in India this is the case in Brazil this is the case in South Africa which means that even though I would agree that the relaunch plan of the European Union is going in the right direction and it's clearly an investment for the future we cannot say the same for all other governments there are other good news however ahead of the COP26 in Glasgow and I would say that the major good news came from China on September 22nd of this year when China announced that its greenhouse gas emissions would reach their peak by 2030 at the latest and that China would achieve carbon neutrality by 2060 this is obviously another good news and I would say that the objectives of China and of the EU seem relatively aligned with each other however if we need to do some stock kicking of what has been accomplished since the signature of the Paris Agreement five years ago we have to consider this this year 2020 we'll see a drop of about seven percent of global greenhouse gas emissions which means that for the first time since the signature of the Paris Agreement we will be on a trajectory that is compatible with the objectives of the Paris Agreement and we will be on this trajectory not because we have chosen it but because we had no other choice than put our countries in lockdown before because of the sanitary crisis and therefore we need to realize that in terms of emission reductions the sanitary crisis has been able to achieve whatever climate policies have not been able to achieve so far and I guess it says a lot about how much more we need to do and obviously we will not be able to take the same measures as the one we took for the coronavirus crisis that is closing the borders or putting countries in lockdown in the future climate change will require policies that we can sustain in the long run and I think that it is extremely important that this crisis serves as a wake-up call ahead of COP26 as to the fact that until 2019 we couldn't see any effect of the pledges and the commitments in the Paris Agreement to actually influence or impact the curve of our greenhouse gas emissions this means that so far the commitments and the pledges made in the Paris Agreement have been newly achieved resolutions that is something that you promise to do and that you never do that's not to say that nothing has been done but obviously the figures do not add up so far so at COP26 I would say that the challenge will be first to make sure that countries upgrade their commitments if we adopt the different national commitments and if we compare this with the collective objective clearly this doesn't add up and the national commitments as they are today are still leading us towards a temperature change of about 3.5 degrees by the end of the century so we need to make sure that countries upgrade their commitments so I welcome the fact that EU just upgraded its commitment China also upgraded its commitment Britain upgraded its commitment a few days ago Japan did the same South Korea did the same this is very good news and this is clearly going in the right direction and I'm hoping that other countries will follow in the coming weeks or in the coming months but we also need to make sure that countries respect these commitments so making these commitments is one step but it's not enough as of now only about 10 percent of countries that signed the Paris Agreement have respected their commitments and I think that for this we need to make more binding commitments and we need to drop these long-term objectives by the middle of the century or by the end of the century let's be clear many current politicians will be dead by the middle of the century and certainly by the end of the century so we need objectives that we can monitor in the short run it is important to know the horizon what is the plan by the middle of the century but it is also extremely important to know what we will be doing next year and the year after and to hold policymakers accountable for reaching these objectives so I think this is something that will need to happen at COP26 that we take closer objectives that we can monitor and that so that we can follow whether or not we're in the right trajectory and now to come to the final point of my answer what does the election of Joe Biden in the U.S. change obviously it is excellently used for the climate any climate policy made by any other president cannot be worse than the climate policies that were implemented under Donald Trump and we can expect that at least Joe Biden will reinstate some of the measures that had been taken by Barack Obama but obviously Joe Biden will need to do much more than that and in this sense I think we should be cautious about the announcement that the that the U.S. will rejoin the Paris Agreement as of January 20th obviously everyone thinks that this is excellent news and I reckon that this is an important signal of a re-engagement of the U.S. into international cooperation and this sends a strong signal also that this is a priority for the new administration yet I think that we mustn't forget three things the first one is that the goal of the Paris Agreement is to send a clear signal of long-term cooperation also to companies and markets and this signal has to be a signal of stability and long-term commitment and while I would welcome the U.S. coming back into the Paris Agreement my fear is that if in 2024 Ivan Catron is elected as the next U.S. president we could assume that she would then exit again the Paris Agreement that I'm concerned that if there is a movement of back and forth depending on the result of the U.S. elections that would send a terrible signal to companies and markets that would send a signal of instability and of fragility of the Paris Agreement if international cooperation depends on the result of U.S. elections we need to make clear that U.S. or any other country cannot just come and go into the agreement depending on the result of its national elections the second risk that I see is that even though we roll of course very enthusiastic at the news of the election of Joe Biden we need at least to remember that even democratic administrations in the U.S. have always tried to lower the level of ambition of international cooperation that was the case of under Barack Obama that was the case under Bill Clinton and we know that at COP26 we will need a stronger and renewed ambition than ever and yet my fear is that for example our return of the U.S. to the table of negotiation could prevent other negotiators from adopting more binding mechanisms for example we know that the U.S. Senate will always be against binding mechanism and I think that we should be extremely careful that the return of the U.S. should not turn down the level of ambition of in the international cooperation and three final point we need to make sure that this announcement doesn't hide a weak level of ambition on the federal level there is no need to be in the Paris Agreement to decarbonize your economy and many of the policies that would allow this decarbonization of the U.S. economy actually depends on Mayors and on Govanos and therefore we need to also be aware that there is only so much that Joe Biden will be able to do much will have to be done by Mayors and Govanos so in a nutshell I think that obviously during engagement of the U.S. in international cooperation is good news the election of Joe Biden is excellent news for the climate but we shouldn't be over-enthusiastic at the idea that the U.S. will rejoin the Paris Agreement I think there are also some risks associated with that that we might have to consider thank you so much Francois Germain that was a little longer than the other so I'm sorry I will give I will give back the time during the panel but that was um yeah very interesting insights both with respect with respect to that emission gap that we have between pledges yes that that is my fault indeed so yes you mentioned that even all the pledges would not actually be enough to reach the targets and so we also have to yeah ask a broader more systemic question about the the model that has already been raised to some degree by other panelists as well and and we all know that this would not be like the the year that we saw in 2020 is not the way that degrowth advocates would like to see emissions being reduced so yes I would like to hear from Timouté Paris so you write about decoupling the the possibilities and impossibilities of decoupling GDP growth and environmental impacts you write about becoming less independent from economic growth in general living within planetary boundaries etc and yet economic growth itself is still not really questioned I feel by most big political institutions and also the european green deal itself is labeled as a growth strategy by the european commission so how important do you think is the narrative of economic growth in times of economic hardship and the pandemic right now how can we reconcile the climate urgency and the biodiversity crisis with these imperatives or can we maybe not do so at all and yes should the discussion around the Paris objective and emission reductions also include a more fundamental discussion about economic and social models also very broad I see these questions and it's a great pleasure to be here I've got a strange relationship to the Paris Agreement because I started my PhD studies straight after we adopted the Paris Agreement so and if I think about the insight I had in the last five years trying to better understand the climate crisis I would really want to focus on on two main points two things that were true five years ago when I started my PhD thesis and are unfortunately still true today and two things that I think are blocking our discussions about sustainability the first one is that we need to unbelieve in the story of decoupling so five years ago we wrote in the SDGs that the objective should be to quote decoupled economy growth from environmental degradation for a necological economist like myself this is the equivalent of wishing to decouple fire from smoke not going to happen so we could get into technical discussions about why this is so or just look at the last decades of decoupling efforts we had a massive GDP bond fire and the best we could do is to remove and let me hear be mathematically precise a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit of smoke so the decoupling hypothesis has been here for a long time and of course we hear very often that maybe perhaps one day who knows decoupling will happen problem is it hasn't and in that context and considering the current correlation between market activities and and greenhouse gas emissions material footprint by university etc advocating for further growth is suicidal so that's that's my take on the new growth strategy of the commission instead I would want why not just follow the precautionary principle assume that decoupling is going to remain tiny and downscale polluting forms of pollution and consumption today but that's the second problem we're not doing this because we are terrified of degrowth I'm an economist but when I discuss about degrowth I rather feel like a therapist degrowth has become the boogie man of our capitalist consciousness many many people think of it as the end of progress degrowth has a synonym for with regression and joblessness regression and joylessness uh but their own the idea that of reducing and stabilizing the biophysical metabolism of our economies is not that monstrous in fact it is how most social ecological systems work they grow up to a point where they can thrive they don't grow forever like we want our economies to do so my point here is that the fast and furious economies of the 20th century are the exceptions rather than the rule it's an economic abnormality that is maladapted to the Anthropocene so we need a new economic system one that manages to satisfy everyone's needs without putting planetary health at risk and this is not science fiction most of the system already exists except that these thoughts and ideas and practices have just been hidden in the periphery of what we consider to be realistic or pragmatic so a post-growth economic system as I see it would be made of for example a circular economy with caps on resource use and pollution legal caps resources would be treated as comments to be managed democratically voluntary simplicity as an ethics of consumption socially useful production for example by not for profit cooperatives in order the social enterprises convivial technology and social innovation a healthy relation with work with less time spent in employment and more time spent in self-determined activities free public services protecting from exclusion alternative currencies embedded in moral values strong mechanisms of pre-distribution distribution and redistribution and most importantly and here pardon my french joy de vivre because what the point of having an economy if it makes us miserable and actually a post-growth economic system would be made of whatever whatever we want a post-growth economic system to be made of and that's my main point this is not a technical but a political question a political question that requires us to educate our desires beyond the narrow and wicked story of more money is better we often joke that it is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of the economy growth I'm only 30 years old but I'm already tired of joking like this so I want to end up by being a bit provocative if you're in charge of important economic matters and if you really cannot imagine the end of economic growth then retire retire and let others invent the economies of the future thank you for that very passionate statement and now it is time to kick start the the discussion and I again invite all of our audience to really ask your questions this is your opportunity you have not been very active so please don't be shy ask questions so we have one first question coming in but I would first like to address a more general question to different panelists so I'd like to briefly refer to the emissions gap report that basically assesses what what François Germain has also commented on difference between where we are likely to be with all the climate red pledges and we were where we need to be to be consistent with the 1.5 or maybe a two point target and basically the the report just came out and it concluded that well it asked the question are we on track on bridging this gap absolutely not so but the the report also says that the money that is being poured into the economies right now can also be really the opportunity now to speed up the low carbon transition and create more structural changes so I'd like to hear from you what are your ideas for a green recovery where should all the recovery money in the European Union be spent what are the priority sectors etc and Leonor maybe you also want to comment on what was said by Mina on holding the continent back etc so maybe you can start yes my pleasure actually I wanted to start on this point also because what what I said was meant in the context of reaching an agreement at the council because we need to discuss how we get to these goals but we but we need to set goals and we need to do we need to make sure that that the pathway this guiding line of a goal that gets us into the right direction but we cannot let the difficulties of getting there becoming a discussion on whether we even want to go there that was it was really my point on the negotiation where I totally agree was the question on where this was also not meant as a as a european centric focus if we talk about and the instruments I mentioned the just transition fund the modernization fund etc are instruments of solidarity are they enough that's exactly the question do we need something else that's exactly the question but but it it's it's just how can we together reach the goal without without blocking us from even trying yeah that that was the point I was trying to make the the obviously it has a strong international dimension and a strong international responsibility that Europe has so that's why and that's why one of the first things we did in the Austrian budget was to almost quadruple our contribution to the Green Climate Fund of course it was a it was not one of the most generous contributions before the Greens took office but we we really stepped up our international obligation and our international responsibility and yes it is our responsibility to look beyond our own borders to look beyond the borders of the continent and what in terms of I'd like to pick up what François said I I think it's important that we set ourselves a goal that brings us closer to what we to ambition we need towards the Paris Agreement the emissions gap is is is still there that's totally clear at the same time we see an analysis from the from climate action tracker that tries to accommodate if if Japan South Korea China US EU doesn't only stay a headline goal but is implemented then we move a lot closer to the two two degrees still far from 1.5 but we are we have to acknowledge I think that there is a shift taking place but where I'm really really 100% in agreement with François is that we need to keep the long-term goal in mind but we need to make sure we know what we do the next year what's our next step also for our societies and for for all the countries to follow because we need to make this very concrete what does it mean what does it mean for our for for people who are not very concretely for people who work in the Austrian industry working towards combustion engine cars yeah what what does it mean what what's the perspective we offer them what's the perspective we the training we can give them what's the next steps what does it mean for their livelihood for their so it's we have to get very concrete and we have to deliver in every single step of of the way so that's why I think this moment in time is so crucial and that's why I also agree that that while we see in many recovery packages not the ambition we need I think in in Europe we're at least looking at this in the in the in the right direction and we are we are in the middle of of the greatest pandemic we are making it clear that we have to set up the recovery packages in a way that they deliver on climate action also and and and as somebody fighting for every single centimeter millimeter meter sometimes kilometer of the way I think this is a really important sign and it's different it's a different sign from the last from the last crisis it's if one when I took office in January in March people told me forget about climate change for the rest of this year yeah forget about your you you can go on holiday now for the for the rest of your mandate and it's quite the contrary what we did in Austria is that we built a huge climate investment package we have two billion euro now for the next two years to to build back differently yeah to to build back more resilient greener towards climate that climate neutrality goal that we set ourselves in Austria to become climate neutral by 2040 we we built climate action every single instrument that we that we build from support to the to the communities up until support to businesses to give you one example we we built an investment premium for businesses that doubles if they invest in climate action but it excludes counterproductive investments so no car scrapping schemes no combustion combustion engine trucks whatever yeah it's it's a first in Austria that we do this yeah it's and I and I think these are very very important steps on the way and now of course there's a ton tons of legislation coming up but I think it's it's really important that while I I'm 100 convinced we need these ambitious goals because they guide all the legislation that comes beyond I think what we really need to focus on is implementation is action now as Molly said because that's that's what we that that's what we need and that's what we're what we're doing in Austria very very consistently not only on our way back out of the out of the COVID induced situation that that we have now but also in terms of a renewables act the new climate law the new energy efficiency law so we're working on a lot of different issues at the moment but the work only begins I'm very clear on that the work is only starting as you said the start of the beginning of or the beginning of a journey thank you Molly you wanted to comment on that with respect to the more short-term targets that we also need to achieve not just the the big long-term targets that are being set by somebody that doesn't have to achieve them him or herself um please go ahead you're some you're muted please unmute yourself how strange there you go that must have been a mysterious interference from somewhere probably a Brexit related thing um so it's really helpful to hear from Lisa I can imagine those negotiations so thank you for sitting through that um and it's great now that we've got Greens in government in in various countries of the EU but what we have to to manage now and this is quite difficult to manage is how to make the sufficiently radical demands and proposals which it's easy for me to make as a British Green where we've you know we've got one MP although even there there's a compromise has to be made of course um you know and some other countries like Germany where there's such a big support for the Greens and they want to get it more and Austria where you're in government and the same in Sweden the same in Ireland and so on so I think that's something we need to debate as European Greens because we can't backtrack on what we know is necessary in order to um to be comfortable with our partners in government and it's it's a difficult one that we have to balance I think I mean you you've said exactly the sorts of things we need to be introducing I don't think the shopping list is difficult we we know exactly what we need to do I think the difficult part as you identified is precisely the fact that jobs are going to go and um obviously our opponents on the left are going to use that against us because it's like you Greens you don't care about people in aviation losing their jobs and so as you say we have to absolutely type proposals for what a Green New Deal looks like for the aviation sector what a Green New Deal looks like in different industries and so on um and that I think you know requires a lot of energy we've done a few of those in the UK but I think as you say that's it will be nice if other people are doing that work but we need to have that work there because we need to be able to say you know of course you will be losing your job selling people things at an airport but on the other hand you'll be able to have a job over here you know we need to be able to say that um and with detail I just wanted to briefly um come back to what Timothy said as well because if if he hadn't been here I would probably have made the sort of points he was making and so I wanted to say yeah it was great great to hear that stuff and I just wanted to give an example relating to Covid which is that there was a lot of criticism in the UK about people who were staying at home and making their own sandwiches and not going out and sitting in a commute you know producing carbon dioxide because the petrol stations they would have bought the the petrol from and the sandwich shops are now going out of business so it's kind of like go and do something that's destructive for the environment sit in a commute when you could be happily working from home because you're the person that has to make sure we continue to have economic growth and this kind of encapsulates the complete insanity of a system that's driven by growth as a fetish and that and as you say it I think that's that's the kind of madness side but the positive side is actually people were much happier spending more time at home a lot of people not everybody but and you know here we all are having this conference without me having to have got on a train and come to Paris or Brussels or wherever and spent that carbon dioxide on my time so yeah so I think that's that's such an important lesson and it's a good time to share that but I just also wanted to say in terms of the economic aspect of the Covid recovery we're going to have the right coming back now saying look we're worried about that debt and with their awful siren song of austerity but we're going to have the left saying yes we can borrow but we need growth to repay that debt and we have to challenge both of those destructive narratives because as greens we say we'll invest now to save the need for investment later we'll pay now to make a post-growth economy to make a steady-state economy that everybody's provided for and that message needs to be going out strongly now because otherwise we'll either get horrible austerity and more social and the environmental destruction or we'll get a real foot down on the growth pedal that the environment can't stand so of course we're right as greens we know that but we need to be making that economic point that Tim it is making very strongly right now I think. Thank you and yeah maybe coming back to Tim right now with respect to well how would you like to see the recovery funds being spent to reflect your vision of where everybody is provided for and that remains within planetary boundaries and we also have a question with regards to that from Sarah and she basically asks so she agrees with you Tim that the refusal to think about what post-growth could look like is outdated but she's wondering how we can mainstream this topic more and have constructive debate in the green movement and she's wondering if you have come across communication or successful methods that like the green movement could consider. Yeah I think we need to focus I mean and we've been using that that word a lot in that previous conversation we need to focus on the concrete needs and that's I think the real learning points for me as a political economist of this pandemic like when the pandemic started to kick in and spring you know we didn't say like oh you know we need to maximize GDP growth and hope that some of it will you know produce masks and some of it will trick and trickle down into like income support for the most disadvantaged no we put that aside we stopped looking at the GDP and we did what had to be done so now like if you're asking me what you know I want that that money to be spent on I want it to be spent on concrete needs and more than this on investment that allow to satisfy this concrete needs independently of economy growth I give you one example we often get into the debate of the jobs that will be lost with the in the ecological transition in aviation and manufacturing of automobiles and and things like this and before it was always it looks like a daunting challenge financially on how you know we can guarantee an income for these people during that transition now I mean I'm French and I have to spend the pandemic in in France and you know we had like an income support for half of the employees of the private sector I mean something historical a basic so now we realize that just guaranteeing an income for those workers in fossil sectors waiting for them to be retrained and transitioned to other green jobs which are often of higher quality in terms of well-being at work is financially possible just a matter of political will so now I think instead of treating that that pot of money in a very abstract manner we need to do what Molly was talking about investing in our ability to have a post-growth economy that actually functions without leaving anyone behind so that's that's the key question of exclusion and I want to make another point link to this of course because we haven't talked that much about the European Green Deal but I I think we need to acknowledge that there's a scientific inconsistency at the heart of the European Green Deal in the same way that there was a scientific inconsistency at the heart of the SGGs I mean this SGG on economic growth that was from everything we know about the relation between economic growth and ecosystems was in contradiction with the other social and ecological objectives so now I find it strange that the commission is repeating the same mistake especially since all the vision of the green new deals the one in the US the the green new deal for Europe like that we're more progressive I've kind of taken a distance from the objective of GDP maximization again focusing on concrete needs let it be you know jobs and income for the most disadvantaged so I find it strangely laggard compared to the the other initiatives and and perhaps another point linked to a question you asked me that I stuck in my head you asked me how can we achieve well-being without running after economic growth in terms of GDP and every time I receive this question I find it kind of strange the question should rather be how can we achieve well-being with economic growth I think this is the big change of paradigm we need to better understand that the economic growth we have today first empirically it's it's easy to show that it has been decoupled from main measures of living standards let it be you know well-being health and education those do not correlate with GDP growth after a certain point that's so you're not going to get extra well-being uh if you boost GDP the second point is even more worrying that actually you make it less well-being for example now since Toma Piketty we know very well that the further economic growth in early industrialization translate into wider inequality and we know of course for a swath of other sciences that wider inequality is translated into lower levels of well-being and welfare in general so now we need to be aware that we can get GDP growth that is sometime not creating as much jobs as we want we wanted to create that is just distracting from well-being in general and and that is just this regardless of the environmental situation so that would be my great question now we are often pitting like okay well we have these environmental limits but we need economic growth throughout do we reconcile let's talk also about social limits because if we realize that the further pursuit of economic growth in certain regions of the world that are already affluent is futile then we don't even need to do this and that's important because then we can realize that by further you know logics of downshifting and sufficiency in regions that already have the means to satisfy their needs we can create more climate space for other regions of the world to find ways of course self-determined ways for them to satisfy their needs thank you yes you you raised questions of after a certain threshold it doesn't necessarily provide more happiness you mentioned the point that economic growth is also linked to raising inequalities at least on a global level and sorry by the way my neighbors just started renovating and so sorry if it's noisy home office retrofitting we all have we all we all have the same struggles in these pandemic times so I was gonna go like towards that topic of climate justice and looking into yeah less developed countries in if we want to use that term in the global south and their performance and talking about climate finance as well on that international debating tables and maybe a france why you can also comment on that and I just wanted to raise that there was a recent study by the Stockholm Environment Institute in oxfam that looked at these carbon inequalities and they found that the richest 10% accounted for over half of the emissions added to the atmosphere in the past 25 years and the richest 1% were responsible for 15% of the emissions more than twice that of the poorest half of humanity so how can we make sense of that how can we address these carbon inequalities both within Europe but also worldwide in these cop negotiations that question goes to I guess François and then also Molly as a finance expert sure well this is something that we have known for quite a long time and and obviously it is good that the the oxfam report but figures on it I would say we have known obviously that the richest the wealthiest countries were bearing the brunt of the responsibility but also that within these countries the wealthiest segments of the population were the most responsible and indeed this leads us to a question about development also and if more people become wealthier in the future which I guess can be an objective in terms of development for the poorest countries that would also mean that they would produce more emissions which means that we need to come with more equitable solution and with a more equitable allocate allocation of of the carbon budget this is a new aspect and this is a key novelty that will be touched upon in the upcoming IPCC report which is due to be published in 2022 will be looking not only at all climate change affects and exacerbates inequalities but perhaps most importantly we will be looking at all climate policies can also exacerbate inequalities and in a way all mitigation and adaptation solutions can exacerbate inequalities within countries if I can just give one example here we'll have in Europe electric cars will be coming and flooding the market within the next three or five years we know that these electric cars are extremely expensive at the moment which means that only the wealthiest in the population will be able to afford electric cars and on the other hand the poorest in the population who will need to continue to drive if they don't have access to public transport most likely will continue to rely on on fuel powered cars which means that they will be polluting more than those driving electric cars for example and I'm not discussing the conditions of the production of the electric cars here I'm just using this as an example and if we put in place regulations that ban fuel powered cars in cities that means that only the wealthiest will be able to afford driving in the future same for plane within I guess about 10 years we'll have hydrogen board planes but we cannot expect airlines to replace the entirety of their fleet within 10 years which means that we will have at the same time hydrogen board planes but also gas oil board planes and most likely the tickets and the fares to fly it in the former will be more expensive than to fly in the latter which means that the rich will have the possibility to fly with a reduced carbon footprint whereas the poor if they want to fly as well will need to basically fly with a higher carbon footprint and I think this is an extremely important dimension to consider that we often consider the impact of climate change on inequalities but it is also crucial to consider the impact of climate policies themselves on inequalities and we will need to come up with a policy package that guarantees a more equitable allocation of emissions and of impacts and also the impacts of these policies anything that will not be equitable will not be efficient so there's a lot of things tied up in that but just to say your framing of possible policies are all within a market understanding and obviously as greens we can also move outside the market so for example if we increase the carbon tax I agree that would affect the poor so we would have to pay a dividend to the poor as I said but we're also in a position where we could introduce rationing of very highly carbon intensive goods so for example we could say we give you a permit to fly once a year if you're a business person we don't think it's actually good for you to fly to Abu Dhabi every week if you're an aid worker perhaps we think it is fine for you to fly to Uganda or Malaysia or somewhere but if you're an academic no you can do your conference by zoom you know we we are governing in a way that needs to protect future generations we can take radical steps like that beyond the market understanding I think it's not just about price it could be about deliberate decisions and rationing then you know on the electric cars just very briefly we've already seen that the what we need to make batteries for cars comes I believe from the Congo anyway from as I said I was just using this as an example I know very well that electric cars are dirty that we continue to monitor supply chains you can come back when I've finished I'm still chatting for a bit um so you know we we have to take into account that we don't continue to exploit countries that we've previously exploited to take their resources but just coming back to Lisa's question about climate finance um I would say this is a double-edged sword or a double-sided coin or something because yeah sure it's a good sign that big finance is moving out of fossil fuels and towards renewables and towards the green transition and we've seen recently of the fall in the oil stock price which to be honest I've been hoping for much sooner and but we do want a steady fall because we don't want to sort of financial crisis and so the signalling is obviously better and I think this comes back to some of the things that Francois was saying about the the commitments now from Japan and South Korea and China and you know there's a very clear signal that we are taking climate change seriously and financiers are responding that's the positive bit but the negative bit is that they're working out how to make a profit from the policies we need to introduce to tackle climate change and you know if we allow that to happen without any constraints then we will see we even if we do what we need to do to tackle climate change we're going to see greater inequality at the end of it so I think as greens we have to take that part very seriously and that's why I bring in my proposal for reparations and for serious transfers of cash from the countries that have previously exploited people and their environments in the majority world and that we don't just go into another round of exploitation because if climate finance ends up with you know pension fund holders and finance houses in the west buying parts of the environments of the majority world countries in order to offset or you know take account for our climate emissions then it's effectively just a different version of all that colonial exploitation and that's why I think we have to we have to make that connection as greens and then reverse it and say no instead of that what we're going to do is use our wealth and power to support you exactly as Timothy said to avoid that kind of dirty miserable bit of being an industrialized and post-industrialized society and move into the green economy of the future direct we'll give you the technology for free to do that we'll support you financially to do that and this is a to me it's a proposal isn't finished yet but I think this kind of ideological framing is the only way of achieving real climate justice. Mina what does climate justice mean for you and how have you mobilized also in on the international level preparing for COP26 keeping in mind yeah these notions of climate justice and what would be your concrete no policy proposals when it comes to the European Commission and the recovery funds and climate finance. Difficult questions. Difficult questions yes I think to start with COP26 and FYG's hope for Glasgow our plans are to make sure that a lot of young people will be able to be there and we will we will organize with other movements who will be there with the other civil society with other young people not just from the young greens to make sure that the decision makers are locked in until they come up with ambitious and accountable just climate action targets and so we really see the strength of the huge climate movement in just being loud and vocal and and stubborn because enough is enough and and and this is this is about us and this is for us and I think I want to kind of we've touched upon and I think what Molly was saying was really resonating with with a lot of the thinking that we see beyond just discussions on climate but around this when we discuss colonialism and what can we do about that it's also something that resonates for me as as an LGBT activist and I kind of want to and I will be linking that to Timothy's point on like Juarez and like having a good life and and so I think as an LGBTI movement we are resilient and I hope that a climate movement can take from that resilience and understand how to use resilience and that resilience comes from solidarity and it comes from understanding that there are many different struggles but it's when we work together and when we and when we come together as one movement that we can really start to overcome them it's resilience that comes from years and years and years and years of being told that we don't exist or that our voices are not valid or that you know we're not invited to tables of decision-making and politics and so you make your own thing work and so I think this is what we see a lot of the time with young people you just do your own thing at the end of the day and and I think this is causing a lot of stress actually on young people because it's like no matter how much we do in terms of individual actions we know that's never enough because as you were saying earlier the richest one percent have 15 percent of the emissions so no matter how many young people are going to get out there using public transport refusing to get driving license on bikes walking places taking trains across Europe taking buses across Europe despite the fact that it's it's really inconvenient particularly for those of us from islands or rural areas doing all of this and making our own system and living in our own world and knowing that it's going to take time until this becomes something that more people see as as the way to go and and so I think it's yeah so I said I would bring this back to like a good life and and and I find it really weird sometimes I speak to other young people who are not connected to the greens and they don't understand why we campaign for like a good life and one with less work hours and more free time and and one where universal basic income can allow us to be creative and do what we want or do care work and do work that we that that is actually contributing to our local communities and where we can feel passionate and and and good about ourselves and I think a good life is also something that is an LGBT activist I really like strive for as well um one where you know you're not limited within a system of or society that is telling you like this is how you have to live these are the norms this is the path that you have to follow and and we're seeing so many young people that we no longer have a path you no longer get into a job and you're in that job for 20 years or your whole life I've changed job like so many times in the past five years you change your course of life so often and and and we kind of want to enjoy this uncertainty and kind of find the joy in uncertainty and not be stressed out um so um yeah so we're we're pushed to believe like that individual action matters that young people should just try harder and do better on this kind of individual level and we start to realize that all of this has been bullshit and which is why we come together and we and we continue to fight together and we learn from other movements and we learn about anti racism from the black lives matter movement and we learn about queer rights and human rights and feminism from feminist and queer movements and then we learn about the needs to bring this all together as a systemic issue and to confront it as a systemic issue from green movements and green leaders and green politics and and I really feel that that's the direction that the youth movement is going in and and these connections that we bring together are so important and at the end of the day hopefully this fight and this resilience and also celebrating small victories along the way um will be able to have like that good life at the end or a good life will be there for someone in the end and and I really hope you know that less work better quality of life universal basic income all can come together as part of a just transition um and and and to yeah for us to thrive and that's to take Timothy's words like we've grown enough and now it's time to thrive and and we're in that transitionary space and that's where thank you um if you're okay with that um I will take that as a final statement from your side Mina that was very like visionary I would like now now I like to give the floor once more to um the other panelists for like a short final statement you can react to what you've heard you probably took notes on what you still wanted to say so please um be concise and I will reverse the order so Tim you will go first um and Leonora will have the final words at the end um so please is there anything that you would like to react on in particular one specific thing we're talking a lot of it's carbon and carbon neutrality and carbon safe and it's it's we need to understand that um there's not only carbon so if we saw you know the problem of climate change there'll still be some couplings having to do with material footprint couplings having to do with or impact on biodiversity so we need to really have a an ecological in the sense of holistic understanding of the type of impact or market activities have otherwise imagine all the effort we've had to to to to to reach that kind of climate agreement all those little small victories and then we reached the point where finally we've managed to kind of reduce carbon emissions and realize oh but now it's it's about like you know extraction of a specific metal or it's about you know land land use change and and the impact on specific species so I think as we're gathering political momentum for climate change it's very important to use that momentum to cover all the other different environmental impact this is I'm saying this in the context of decoupling too because you know decarbonizing the economy is is not enough we really need economies that are embedded sustainably into natural ecosystems and the sense of living in harmony with them so if that can be my last point I'll be happy with that thank you that was that was very clear that was very clear um François Germain anything in particular we also had one question about um russia whether you could briefly comment on the role of russia but yeah i'll start with russia i would say that russia has has been having the same magnitude of the united states but more hypocritical that is that russia has done nothing but it has stayed in the peris agreement without meeting any of its commitments so in a way it would have been more candid if russia had also exited the peris agreement um and that's been the case i mean since vladimir putin is in port so since 1999 i think that he has been following all climate negotiations more than any other leader with the exception of maybe a few african dictators um no um as a final statement um my job as a scientist is to document the way populations in a global source are affected uh displaced because of the impacts of climate change and this is something that is happening right now and i feel that sometimes we focus too much on future generations and too much on ourselves uh and i think that we should not forget that the goal of all this is to keep the planet inhabitable for the most vulnerable amongst humanity and those most vulnerable are not in the wealthy europe even though there are vulnerable people in europe as well but there are in the global source and and i've heard a lot of things that were about the reinvention of our societies reimagining the economy um i think that's at the risk of something like the awful pragmatic guy here i think we need to focus on where we have some kind of democratic majority at the moment that doesn't mean that we cannot pursue other objectives but we need to work on what works right now and what will keep the planet inhabitable for the most vulnerable inhabitants if this allows us to live better and to live a better life well that's a collateral benefit but that shouldn't be the goal and the goal should really be uh to keep the planet inhabitable for those who are the most vulnerable and i think that we shouldn't forget uh that goal in the reinvention of our societies thank you so much françois geména um so molly any reactions to that i'm sure that you have some well i would say that the greens the most important thing we should push for during this copier is a strong and rising carbon tax with a dividend because it's the most effective way from an economic point of view putting the right incentive into the market and getting those powerful markets working for us um but taking up françois challenge i totally agree you know people are suffering from the effects of climate change today and that is a consequence of what we as europeans did in the past and and the us you know the countries that have burned a lot of fossil fuels in the past are responsible for that suffering and that's where i think as greens we could do something really interesting you know tying that loss and damage sort of proposal that will be the discussion that will be happening at the cop to the the question of um past abuses by our countries and the need to atone and make reparations for those and finally i would just say that um it's true that we're suffering a lot less in most of our countries at the moment but we still we're democracies and we will have to persuade people that this climate change policy is good for them and i think that's why i value what timothy is doing and we we're trying to come up with slogans in the uk green party at the moment like you know t-shirt saying 1.5 percent is good for you i don't think that's a good slogan but you know basically what we need to do to address the climate crisis is going to make us better and happier societies and as greens who are going to stand for election we do have to have a message like that so that we can actually put our stronger policies around climate reparations and the carbon tax actually into practicing government thank you and yes talking about finding democratic majorities and dealing with the realities of the political um daily lives uh the final words go to ministry leona redesla and we have one comment also that i would like to read out um greens in government uh in the u are in in six governments yes we have to assume that on one hand green ministers are satisfied with the reduction of at least 55 percent in the european council and that the european greens won between 60 percent and 65 um so yeah last comment on the political realities of these climate policies please i will still pick up a bit from what françois said um for the final statement um but first as a general message um picking up from what many of you said i think international climate finance our solidarity on on um on the international field needs to dramatically uh improve and be scaled up on um so that that's a starting point um but in general the transformation that we have in front of us as societies as countries as political actors to reach the climate neutrality goal is on the one hand and that comes from this discussion also much bigger than just um the focus on the environmental boundaries and the focus on on on co2 emissions but without the focus on co2 emissions um we will have a completely different situation a completely different transformation in front of us with large parts on our planet uninhabitable so i think we really need to to um to make sure that that we um that we act on these priorities and that uh we make sure that in acting we have in mind that climate policy is more than environmental policy and i think this equity discussion i would love to continue this with with françois on on another uh on another occasion because we are we're um what we're doing right now in in every in every instrument we do support instruments for example for renovation we we completely reshuffle them in a way that for people on the lower end of the income scale we basically will need to provide instruments that cover uh 100 basically 100 percent of the investment cost so how do you how do you reshuffle also public policy how do you reshift tax policies so that those who consume more co2 pay a fair share also in this so i mean there's there's a lot of work to do there is so much you can do in in climate policy and we try to mainstream this really into this thinking into every single policy area we develop but we also need to be sure we have um we have all the other political actors uh and all the other ministries on board because this transformation to a climate neutral society is as much a task for our ministry of labour as for our ministry of economy as for the industry strategy as for uh for the university uh the what do we train people on what's i mean a hundred million questions so um i think what um and and we are working on all of this at the moment and i think this is this is really um this is really my um my um call to action maybe at the end yeah that uh i think it's it's really important while keeping the different um angles of what can greens in government do what can greens uh in in the in the different levels in government or outside of government as political actors as actors in the the civil society sphere do but let's not forget while we might have different roles we share the same struggle we share the same political goal we want to move forward and i think that's very important to keep in mind in our debates also internally that the more cohesive we are in also respecting the different roles the more powerful will be to move ahead because we need majorities democratic majorities in the different kind of of governments in the different kind but also in in terms of of of people support on our side so the stronger we are in fighting this together in our different roles and responsibilities the the the more uh we'll move ahead in in the biggest challenge of our time to fight the climate crisis and I think this is a is a historic task but it's our task to take because nobody else will be able to do this and I think this is the this is the the um this is what unites us and I think this is what we need to fight for thank you so much these were just perfect final words I will not add on to any of that because time is running out thank you so much to all our panelists for having taken the time and for your precious insights that was really um great thank you so much for um all the the audience that we're joining in um I hope that we can now walk the talk and all work together for um yeah more ambitious policies also to not only target wise but also implementation wise and um just uh one heads up there is another there are two other parallel sessions after this one so you can just stay on the platform one starting now with representatives of the Glasgow agreement so they will share um how their climate action plan and what's um civil society can do against climate change without waiting for governments and institutions to act and at um two we also have the mock cop um outcomes presentation so the first ever online youth climate conference so um just stay on the plot platform and thanks again for everyone have a great day and merry