 On this episode of Skeptico, a deep, deep dive into consciousness. Once you experience it, you can't go back. You suddenly, you know that reality is unbelievably bizarre. And the dimensionality of consciousness is going to move us into advancing who we are as humans. But we await the paradigm shift, which is critical in terms of our understanding the science of the subject, of integrating it with the science of the physical in order to better understand consciousness, reality, and maybe a little bit more about what life and realities is all about. That's today's guest, Dr. Bob Davis, talking about his new movie, The Consciousness Connection. Hold on tight. A lot of level three inside baseball to follow. Welcome to Skeptico, where we explore controversial science and spirituality. With leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics, I'm your host, Alex Icares. And today we welcome Dr. Bob Davis back to Skeptico. You know, I just went and re-listened to episode 419 when Bob was on. He was talking about his book, Unseen Forces, and I was like, oh my gosh, how have I dropped the ball? How have I not had this guy on since? Bob is great. We'll hear that again here. But go back and listen to the other interview I thought it was just a phenomenal interview that he gave. He's incredibly smart. He is a real top-notch scientist, like highly regarded in his field, PhD Ohio State, multiple NIH grants, dozens and dozens of papers and presentations at top universities, Harvard, Cambridge, all that stuff. I mean, he is the real deal as a scientist in his field. And I guess the reason that I emphasize that so much is because you're not going to believe the conversation we're about to have. This is a guy who should be super mainstream, keep it down the middle of the road, do what I'm told kind of thing. And he's not doing that at all. He's talking about his contact experience that he had that led to his first book, the UFO phenomenon, an experience. I should mention this. I mentioned this in the previous episode. You know, there's not a lot of people, a lot of people say, I saw UFO. There's not a lot of people that say, I had this vivid, very close encounter with the UFO with my wife there. We both saw it for five to seven minutes. And then add to that. He's going to talk about near death experience because he had a near death experience, believe it or not, it led to his second book, life after death. And then he kind of tied all that together into a book, the last book, the one that I said we talked about in 417, Unseen Forces. And you might even say that this book is tied to a Kundalini experience he had. And he does a beautiful job. And a really unique, subtly unique job of re-understanding these extended consciousness experiences or recategorizing them, I should say, as peak experiences. And we won't go into that because that would just be kind of a rerun of the last interview. But what Bob has done there is given us a different way of really thinking about a lot of these different experiences. And why are they peak experiences? Why are they so transformational? So go back, listen to that, read that book. There's a lot, lot to be gained there. But there's just so much to talk about today. And he has a new film. And we want to help him bring that film into reality is, of course, about consciousness. Bob, it's fantastic having you back here. Thanks so much for joining me. Hey, I can't follow up on that. Thank you so much, Alex. As I mentioned earlier, I've listened to you for numerous years. And you're at the top of my list. So it's an honor to be with you. And that's rock and roll. We'll have a lot of fun with this. Great. Thank you. I think probably the natural place to start is a movie. So you're now working on a movie. Tell us about it. Tell us how it came to be. Who's working on it with you. I'll pull up here so people can see some of the folks that you have associated with it. Many have been on Skeptico. Many are just super top notch people. Jeff Long, Eben Alexander, Dean Braden, Tom Campbell. The list goes on and on and on. Tell us about the film. After I wrote my book, Unseen Forces, The Integration of Science and Reality and You, I felt a strong urge to share what I thought more strongly and the only way you can do it this year is to do it in a video. And the first person I sent it to was located close to where I live, Dave Beatty, of the Nimitz Encounter's fame. He did that very popular tic-tac documentary that treated almost 6 million hits already. But he read my book. We resonated, and now, a year after that, we have established wonderful relations with many people who we've talked to, like Dean Raden, numerous other scientists, like Tom Campbell, and Joe McGonigal, the remote viewer, Eben Alexander, the famous neurosurgeon who gave up his practice to spread the word after his near-death experience. The list goes on and on, but the point is we're trying to establish, as best as we possibly can, portray in an entertaining, understandable fashion with science and combining the objective with the subject of showing individuals who experience so-called peak experience, something that Maslow talked about a century ago, these epiphanous episodes that are transcendent and change us in dramatic ways, alter our belief systems, as you have often talked about. We want to portray that in the objective, as well as subjective, integrate both because we lack that in our paradigm. We don't regard the subjective element, the experiencer of near-death experiences, out-of-body, UIP interactions, the list goes on and on, but they trigger a peak experience in people who have it. And they're very sane individuals. And we can talk a great deal about that, but how do you capture all of that? And we talk about multiple different disciplines that are poorly understood. We talk about consciousness. The consciousness connection at website is by the way, consciousnessfilm.info. And if you resonate with what I'm talking about, what we'll be talking about, please, I hate to act like the typical producer. I was a scientist, obviously, my whole life, and now my right brain takes over a few extraordinary experiences, as you know, and I go in a different direction, now that I'm in retirement. You know what? I want to, if you can, have you sketch out those experiences? And I'm tempted to kind of shift right past them, but I know that that's something that people are gonna be able to connect with on a very personal level in terms of you having these experiences. It's interesting, you know, ask me what books I used to read as a young kid, and my answer will be 1963 Olman Act. And what's the next popular book? 1964, World Olman Act. You know what I mean? We're talking to a left-brained dude. Open-minded, I always believed in UFOs, grew up in the 60s. How can you not with all that's going on with the moonshot and media entertainment in sci-fi, of course. So I always had an open mind about that, and then the paranormal, but still I was a hardcore left-brained scientific method material, not an materialist per se, in terms of research, it was very objective, of course, but there was a right side there. Then my wife and I in Sedona, Arizona, if you haven't been there, go, gorgeous, lovely, the comma, you know, Alex, you've been there. We were on the popular ranch there. Bradshaw Ranch, that is known as a hot spot, so to speak. Suddenly at night, one orange orb appeared. It was about a half mile away, 200 feet high, quite visible. Suddenly appeared, got my attention for some reason. I don't know why I don't normally look up, but nevertheless, staring at it, orange couldn't look solid, gaseous, fluctuating. As I was watching it, however, another one either emerged from within it or behind it. I was hard to distinguish, but now we have two of the same exact, completely circular, not steroid or emotional or soundless objects sitting side-by-side and I'm stunned, no sense of communication. They have several minutes to wink out, goodbye. Left the impression, you know, morning coffees tasted quite different the next day, but I had to get it out of me. Like many people do with fierce determination, you know, a type of peak experience. That wasn't an interaction kind of abduction thing as people report to have, but it's nevertheless just to put it in writing. And it was always a writer, more of course scientific in nature. So I did the UFO phenomenon, should I believe, which I wouldn't modify greatly if I was right to get to that. Things, the times have changed. I did that in 2014, let's move on. Let's not move on to, I just want to emphasize a point because you know, there's like so many points like you and I could have really long discussions on all this stuff. But of course it's changed because everything is changing and it's a moving target. And we are in the middle of that change. We've gone from before disclosure to after disclosure to coin the term that Richard Dole and Coint, everything has changed. So of course things have changed for you. But the other thing that you kind of put your finger on that I think is so interesting and the connection you make in the book Unseen Forces, your third book right now, we just talked about your first book, was this idea that the peak experience in and of itself is tricky and hard to hold on to and hard to identify in so many ways. And you almost gave a throwaway line that the coffee tasted different the next morning. That might be part of the quote unquote peak experience. You know, I interviewed Kevin Day who is the guy who turned me on to Dave Beatty's movie on the Nimitz and Kevin Day is in that movie because Kevin was the guy who was on board, the ship was directing all the pilots that went and saw the tic-tacs, right? And Kevin's story and I know you've heard this but eventually he's so curious to what's going on, he goes up and he looks through the big glass on the ship and he cites, sees the UFOs and it changes for him. He has a peak experience even though he doesn't realize he has a peak experience. He comes back, he has depression and he has all this other stuff. So what you're putting your finger on with this peak experience thing is so tricky. And that's what I think you do such a masterful job of throughout this work, throughout this thread that you're creating is giving us permission to think about these experiences differently and ask different questions. What do you think about that as it relates to that cup of coffee and Sedona? You know, exactly, it's a ego transcending moment. You're not the center of the universe for some reason. It's ineffable, but it alters your viewpoints and belief systems in dramatic ways on more than just your next day's morning coffee. Indeed, we know the statistics and people have spiritual emergencies because of these kind of transformational episodes that can be quite unpleasant initially. And they come in all shapes and sizes that you talk about with many people on your shows. We talk the same language indeed with others. But the core feature it seems is that self-transcendence and get-to-the-aspect of consciousness, of course, a lucid concept like what is time, what is consciousness, which is discipline specific. But people have always had these kinds of experiences, religious texts, folklore, and dramatizes in varying ways, metaphorically speaking, but also in art and other ways that I know are debatable, a little controversial, but it's hard to ignore. There seems to be an aspect of awareness or the subjective experience, the essence of it, that can't be portrayed in a mathematical formula. You know, that's Newtonian physics and quantum processes to real reality, in other words, is only true based on math and that kind of physical material observation, of course. We don't integrate the subjective, the peak experience that we're talking about and millions have it. It's beyond, it's a spiritual transformative, whatever you wanna call it, we don't have the proper terms, of course, and consciousness is not a proper term either because people don't know how to define it to begin with. It's all interrelated to some extent, but the question is what is that subjective essence? The thing is like, there's many levels of consciousness that I'm trying to portray in terms of my book, Unseen Forces, the integration of science, reality, and you, the subjective, which lacks tremendously in all these equations and the subjective is part of the UAP, like you're talking about, Kevin Day. I've talked briefly with him, I know what you mean. I mean, it goes deep this phenomenon and it's not new. It obviously existed forever. How could it be new? Why would it be new? When did it start? 1959, crash landing in Roswell, it's always been here. Questions, what is it? I'm writing an article right now. I know we're going all over the place and I do apologize, but it's all interrelated and it is confusing, but you can't help but look forward, try to integrate the pieces because I love chest. And my left brain now lightened up a little with my right brain. I didn't have a Kevin Day thing flying in a fighter pilot and seeing this thing go from low space altitude to 80,000 feet down to 60 and then 50 feet in 0.7 seconds, estimated G-forces of 5,000 greater. Kevin Canute, that's computational physicist comes up with over 60,000 miles per hour based on all the technical information that he can gather based on that tic-tac. So what the heck is that all about? No, you can't rule out obviously advanced technology of course, you can't entirely. And you can go there too. You can go to psych ops for some of this stuff. You can go all over the place and you can go to why should I listen to anybody under that newly developed department of the DoD is that's assigned the task to figure out what the heck UAP is. I mean, history dictates, listen to them but don't listen to them. Don't interpret everything literally, nor should we do so in the same manner with spokespeople associated with the UAP which of course is real. How can they, I mean, it took how many years for them to say it, what should I do applaud? Right. I can't look at it seriously. It's so much disinformant. We know the story. It's a pseudoscience at best. There are attempts to make it a science. Hold on, one of the things you just said there is something that you, I was going to say something that you play with but that's not a good term. It's more something that you struggle with. It's more like we're watching Bob's left brain switch over and then right brain switch over. We're watching Bob go through the ego destruction, ego disillusionment, ego dissolving and then we're seeing Bob reconstruct the ego and say, how do, and the ego, and I don't mean in an egotistical way, I mean the ego in this- A tree hugger. I became a tree hugger, Alex. But there's also just science is ego, right? Science is I can measure. I can make a difference. I can do. And then so this gets into the real, really deep stuff with regard to consciousness, with regard to UAP, UFO, ET, you know, it gets into the evil, you know, is this demonic? What would that even mean? And then are we saying that the ego dissolution kind of suggests that all that is yet another drama that we don't necessarily have to play and that we somehow transcend that and that comes through again. So I feel you, bro, I feel the complexity. I applaud you for not backing off, not trying to, you know, give us simple answers. Everything is nuanced. Everything is complicated. Everything is interconnected. But the fundamental question that you ask in Unseen Forces, the third book is the question about reality and what are we looking at? Where do we stand relative to reality? Do you wanna pick up that thread? Cause I think that's fundamental to this. Personally, I think there's different kinds of reality. It intertwines, I consider it consciousness. You know, we call it reality, I'm not entirely sure, but look, everything is conscious. I do believe it's related to information exchange. I'm in that camp, that's minor. There's a lot more than just saying that. You bang your head on a table, you're getting information. The table's telling you don't do it again. That's the point. Everything is conscious. It's giving you information one way or another. Let's cut to the chase. And they even try to quantify it using a PHI, you know, a quantification system. There's different types of consciousness and it exists as a subatomic level. We can get into detail about that with the observer effect, the wave, the wave of particle duality issue and how the subjective mental intention, observation, all that disrupts it, influences it. The point is, reality, consciousness is physical. It is. It's mathematically derived on paper. Brilliant minds, bomb, Einstein, they describe math, you know, the mathematical equations that describe the universe. But where are they coming from? They're brilliant minds, but they're not dancers, singers, and you know, they're mathematicians, theoretical physicists. So you're gonna get an answer that like time doesn't, it's an illusion. It is. It is. Information exchange exists at the cosmological level. It does. And the question is, does that interact with the body? A consciousness component that some people, theoretically speaking, of course, think it may be the case, you know, that torsion energy, you could even go there. The point is, where's the interconnection between cosmic consciousness that exists on paper, time is an illusion, and that is a physical reality. But it's, we forget about the subjective aspect of reality and consciousness. The way you put it in the brain. My memories are the past, it influences present. Right? I'm in a lot of pain, time goes slow. I'm having a great time, time goes fast. We don't acknowledge this objective aspect. Bob, the way you put it in the book, and I'm struggling to remember exactly, it was, are we in reality, or are we on the other side of reality, you know? And it gets into this kind of creating consciousness. I also think of a Dr. Bernardo Kastrup, I think does an excellent job, and says, we are in consciousness. It's not that we are, you know, so and I think, again, I wish I could recall exactly the phrase that you use, but what I took out of that is this idea that maybe our vantage point when we talk about reality is significantly different than what we ordinarily assume that it is. And that has to do with this whole dissolution of the ego, because what I hear is this, not contradiction, but when the ego dissolves, all that other stuff just kind of goes away. Yeah, exactly. Then the subjective reality or the subjective aspect of consciousness, which is different than the physical, or it can be integrated with the physical. Something is causing or triggering that subjective change in your reality. In other words, my personal belief systems are altered. We hear this all the time from people who have various peak experiences, near death again, out of body, shamanic journeys, even psychedelic drugs may very well induce this ego dissolution. They all seem to cause that self-transcendence sparked by an ego dissolution, and you go into the literature of ego dissolution, obviously that's the subjective. I hear you, you're exactly right on. But it's integrated obviously with the physical. And then because we have a brain and we have a reducing valve, we trace the brain. So it takes that information, limited in nature, filtered considerably by each of our sensory modalities, of course, it only see a piece of the physical, true reality, in a sense, the body provides us with an aspect of an illusion, in a sense, because we're just seeing, it's like the web telescope. The pictures they show, like they say, it's like holding a piece of rice up. It's only a piece. There's so much more to reality. Well, the same here too, in a sense. I got to stop you there because I thought that was such a brilliant point when I ran across it. And again, it's gonna be a throwaway moment if we don't talk about it. But the light bulb went off for me when you said what you just said. If the brain is this reduction valve, which we hear and it's way overused, then that is also designed by this overall subjective experience. It isn't just creating the subjective experience, it is in some way connected to that subjective experience in a way that we can't totally pull apart either. And that's the point you were making, that you go, oh my gosh, this is every time I wanna pin it down, I have to kind of, again, pull myself back out of it, right, do you wanna elaborate? Yeah, exactly. To me, the brain impedes our ability to see true reality without question. The next level of that is, why is the brain impeding or, because impeding is just two sides of the same coin. Impeding or opening, why is it doing it this way? Why is it doing it that way? What dance is it doing with consciousness in order for us to create these kind of experiences? What dance is it doing with an octopus versus a dog versus the rest of that? That's where you sent me with, instead of just thinking this very simplistic, oh, it's a valve this and that, it's like, no, it is somehow dancing this dance with us that's creating our questioning and our view of it. Do you get what I mean? Because I got it from you, I'm not making this stuff up. The point is we're slaves to it and there may very well be ways in which the brain can be taught or experienced something that integrates with the essence of who we are. We are the brain, we're symbiotic with the brain, we need the brain, let's love the brain, let's eat right, let's keep the body fit, all that sort of stuff. But it's evolutionary, which separates all species, as for those who believe in that, life development as opposed to a religious spin on it, our bodies represent the planet. We are designed for a 3D physical reality in an inhabitable type of planet. This isn't a perfectly habitable planet, especially when you're walking in Northern New York in January, but it's habitable. And we simply evolved physiologically, brain too, of course, and adapt appropriately, shaped accordingly in many different ways. And here we are, we're still evolving, but for this planet, but it seems maybe in humanoid may be a common type of physical structure as people report anecdotal evidence, of course, I don't wanna get into that too, but we can touch upon that even, not in human intelligent beings that people report to interact with, but we're a product of the primordial soup and the lightning bolt that provide the electromagnetic energy that sparked supposedly life. And still controversy associated with that, of course. So back to the film, the film leans on near-death experience science. It must lean on near-death experience science because that is some of the most important and powerful science that we're getting back about this extended consciousness realm and how we should understand it. Jeff Long, Evan Alexander, others, what are your thoughts from big picture down to the details that we're struggling with in terms of how we understand near-death experience inside of the larger umbrella of peak experiences? How are you tackling that in the film? Well, it's funny you mentioned that because coincidentally maybe synchronistically, I don't know how to interpret that, but we'll be interviewing Evan Alexander. And as I previously mentioned, but it's worth repeating now again in early August. And I've talked with him before along with Jeff Long who's also gonna be in our documentary to leading research is in the area of NDE. You've mentioned it several times, of course, and near-death experience or research foundation on Jeff Long runs. And if anybody wants to understand NDE's, go to the archives of people providing their qualitative descriptions, the essence of their NDE. There's thousands of them, over a thousand at least. That's a study in and of itself. Again, we lack that, that qualitative aspect to NDE's. You understand we don't understand true reality unless we understand what sense of reality are they talking about? We don't have the words, the definitions, the terms. So language has not developed maturity enough, linguistically, semantically, to capture the essence of that subjective S feeling that NDE and OBE and other peak experiences provide to the person. And it varies personality, of course, too. But the NDE gives us, yes, exceptional evidence for that elusive is-it-life-after-death question, which we have always contemplated and for good reason. And only anecdotal evidence, it seems, will provide the answer. But of course our umbrella or scientific methodology that we employ doesn't get out. It's not designed to do so. Newtonian design, we can't rely on science yet, yet to do so. So we need quantum physics, we know that. We need to integrate it and all that sort of stuff to get at truly what an NDE is. It's real. I've talked with many, you've talked with many, but the point is what are they saying? And this is the umbrella to me. And so I suspect some others. It's similar to the holographic properties that correspond with certain principles of quantum physics. It gets into their perceptual aspects, that is. It gets into theories of non-locality we always use, that instantaneous information exchange in that timeless and placeless dimension. They try to describe that, but language doesn't capture it. But we see this in experimental evidence at the quantum level, subatomic level. But that could certainly describe telepathy as well. Experiments have proven that without a doubt. Let's see, Bob, I feel like you're kind of again, dancing around this. I mean, so what are we to make of the connection between non-local, non-physical, and the physical down to the level of not just proving it, but in terms of are they different realities? From this reality, is it impossible to understand that other reality? Because that's what I think a lot of the wisdom traditions are telling us, is it's a fool's game to try and understand what you're calling reality from this reality. Do you believe that or do you believe we have to push and understand it and we can get there? I don't think we can. I don't think that's possible to experience true reality unless we have an NDE or an OBE where, and there's evidence, as you know, of a vertical perception where information is obtained that's outside their sensory systems. There's no way they could know. Every now and then there's one example of someone who had a vertical perception. Jeff Long published studies like that, but I know what you're saying in a way. It's not the data. I know, I could bore you with that. I get it. It's hard to get at that question. It's very deep. I admit that and you wrestle with that. And of course, I don't have any answers. And please, when I say don't interpret literally, everybody should be open-minded in their own research, of course. That's the problem. I think that's the number one question we have. What is true reality? And we struggle because intuitively we know there's another reality, but our brain says, no, stick on the 3D stuff. We're slaves to it again, I think. And we can only have true reality. Knowing true reality is if we have a peak experience. And you see support with the holographic principles of quantum mechanics, which I could bore you with. You see, their perception correlates with many principles in quantum physics. So there's some support there between science and the subjectives, which is real cool. That turns my head. It stimulates and motivates me. And I'm sure others like you too, but I'm trying to connect the dots and like the chess game, okay. So people have these wild experiences. They're out of the body. They're interacting with the cease relatives, non-human entities. They do DMT psilocybin. They see machine elves to you, to the grays and beyond besides the cease relatives. What is that all about? Does it reflect their beliefs? Does it reflect memories in their mind? Are they being, or somebody playing a game? You know, who's in control here? That's the point. Is it neurologically induced, psychotic induced, or are they seeing a new true reality? And I try to address that in my book. It's like, how you separate psychosis symptoms from what they truly experienced. And you have to, you have to. Because most of them are very sane people, but they're our psychotic individuals, obviously, who may mimic some of that behavior, but it's easy to separate. But that's the point. You are certainly on the cutting edge of this. And that's why your books are so important. And that's why we certainly wanna get behind you and get behind this film, because the way that you're trying to lay it out is super important. And it's gonna bring so many people along for the journey and digging into it in a deeper way. I wanna jump ahead with some things that are kind of more skeptical, kind of related. There's not a lot of people I can talk to at this level, but I can talk to you because you've already laid that groundwork. So what I was really driving at and all that is kind of where I'm coming from with the why evil matters question. And it's not, I don't want people to misunderstand that. I'm not interested in what is evil or calling out people or pointing fingers. I'm just saying that I think the question of is there such a thing that we would call evil? Does that even exist? Is there such a thing that we could call good? Is there a moral imperative? This seems to be coming back from us directly from the dear death experience science undeniably, clearly at this 90% level, they're saying, yes, there is a moral imperative. Yes, there is a hierarchy to consciousness, but I don't know, that's just 90%. I wanna jump past that. You mentioned Dean Raiden and he's in the film. I just interviewed him and I was blown away in a really kind of negative way that I'm still trying to get over because I think we're at a very, very interesting point in time. I've never been a big, we're at the special place in time kind of person because history kind of throws that against the rocks and crushes it pretty quickly. But when Dean Raiden says, yeah, I'm working on giving people a jab so that they can get more psychic and create a hive mind because the crazy stuff you guys are doing out there needs to be controlled and the way that I'm gonna do it is I'm gonna change your DNA and that's gonna change that filter that you're calling your brain and that's gonna change consciousness. I'm like, whoa, where have you gone? You have some of the most important fundamental research for establishing, for dissolving this materialistic bullshit and now you're taking it in this transhumanism globalist kind of craziness that seems to me contrary to what I'm getting back from a subjective level from the near death experience science which is there is a hierarchy, there is a moral imperative, although fooling around you guys are doing with your lab and with your experiments is for the most part just problematic in all these different ways. Help me out here. Help me understand why folks are using this advanced technology that we're at to try and think they're masters of the universe that can control our consciousness with a jab in the arm. Somebody gotta make a book, you know. Somebody has to get a grant to maintain an academic position. Someone has a kind of heart and truly wants to help people and think they can in some way. You know, I'd like to think most people who are trying to modify consciousness using biofeedback, there's certainly healing practices and yoga comes in many different forms and then you have a Dean Ray who's doing his thing. Well, cool. Yeah, I have great respect for Dean and we'll be at IONS, the Institute of Phonoretic Sciences once their lab is reestablished to film dean and others who are doing research there. And they're doing some very interesting research with mediums in fact, like that one bridge and you mentioned that many times. Let me underline a point you're making there so that it's not misconstrued and so that you have the space to talk about this without it sounding like I'm slamming Dean Raiden. And that is that Dean in that interview that I gave makes a point that is solid and arguable. The first big point that he makes is quit talking about if this is happening. It is happening. We are changing the genome. We are changing our DNA. We are jabbing people in the arm and that is done. Forget it. The cow has left the barn. It's like AI is my background. Artificial intelligence. Quit talking about if it is here. We are dealing with it. So Dean is saying if we're in the middle of that sea change, don't we need to understand how we might shape it, how we might direct it and what might be advantageous for our species in the future. And in that respect, you can't, like I said in the interview, maybe we should be glad. Maybe we should be glad that it's Dean Raiden who's out there doing it as opposed to some guy in China that's buried in some lab that we don't even know what he's doing. So, but I'm not saying I've subscribed to that either, but this is a unique point in history as it relates to take a jab, physically change the filter that we're talking about the valve in your head and then change your conscious experience. Yeah, well, you're taking a chance. Are you sure you could change the filter in your head to change your conscious experience? Come on, I mean, I for one to want to participate in that experiment, I don't know how I was going to pass the committee on protection of human subjects, but you have a lot of conspiracy theorists thinking consciousness is being changed by many kinds of jabs that we're all taking every day it seems, but maybe it is in some ways. We strive for truth. There's more truth seekers than others of course and those that are try to alter consciousness for the better. The problem is how can we improve human suffering through this technique? And it's not to figure that one out and maybe it's trying to widen that filter naturally and maybe even with a jab of DMT. I don't know if altering DNA is going too far. I don't know if you know what DNA controls exactly what you want to achieve. Gary Nolan is going to be in our documentary. Many people know the name. He's recently been on many shows. He doesn't make the conclusion, but he does make the suggestion that an area, as you know, in the core date and putamen of the hippocampus, we see a greater enhancement of white connectivity. Okay, there's more stuff going on. He shows the map you've heard and people know. What does that mean? Well, he doesn't say anything about what it means, but you need many of them had the Havana syndrome and UIP interact, all that sort of stuff. Are they psychics, right? We have a physiologic, biological marker for that. Empathy, ESP, the intellect, ESP, all that. So interesting, interesting, but can you modify a gene to create that if that structure is an evolutionary thing going on that can potentially maybe make a psychic ESP show us kind of human potential growth to improve us at a personal and societal level? We're at that cusp, but people understandably are playing around with things that are unique to their discipline. This is what they know. Let's back up and make sure that people know, Gary, know a little bit and the reference you're making because what Gary has shown in his claiming and I think has shown is that there are people that have had an encounter, a contact experience with ET and their brains are different. And he's saying that that is a direct result and he's saying that we've studied it and we have information back from other contact that says that's it and that it looks experimental sometimes that change wasn't so good. It led to like death in some people. So just to put an emphasis to put an exclamation point we are at a very interesting time. We mentioned Dean Raiden, take the jab, change your DNA, change the filter. Maybe we got to do that to stay on pace with ET who's saying I can come in there and change your brain and now change what's going on too. It's again, this sounds crazy to people but just go do a little looksie and you can't unlook it after that. Well, you know, Alex, this is what I struggle with almost daily. This is why I'm doing the documentary. I wake people up to the complexity of reality. I don't have any answers to what you're asking me and the best questions I've ever received. Like switch gears over, you mentioned Gary Schwartz, Arizona, SoulPhone, I had Mark Pickstick on, love those guys even though I gave Mark kind of a hard time but here's another dimension to this, which is technology. Will we be able to have an app that will connect us to this extended realm? That's what they're working on essentially more or less with the SoulPhone. What does that do? And again, if we put it in this timeline perspective, what does it mean that we are at this point in history in this long technological advancement that we can have over the last 100 years and say we are now where we can actually imagine doing something like that? What are, what in your gut, having had all these experiences and thought about this and published and researched this, what does your gut feel about the intersection of technology with what's going on in the extended consciousness realm? I'll be honest with you, other than, you know, it goes too far in some respects, we're at the cost, as I was trying to say before, of using technology in fancy dramatic ways, then I commend those who do that. You know, one of them will be the inventor. We'll be able to measure consciousness. I know somebody who has a meter and I gave it to Dean Raiden to do just that. That's another issue, a consciousness meter, basically. That's another story. So we're on that cusp. I don't think we have the proper tools to do it. People strive to do it. The cell phone by Gary Schwartz, there's some preliminary data that are suggestive at best that something is going on. It's a very complex procedural process. As you alluded to it, it utilizes a computer, a unique software package. And the goal here is to figure out if a deceased individual is the proper responding appropriately and following computer-derived demands to go into one location versus another. And some preliminary data says, eh, it says, let's give me some more money and I need to experiment more to figure this out. It's important. We're gonna try to figure out this life after death. Give me $2 million, you know, right? And I read his, I have a great respect for Gary Schwartz, but he's gotta put it on the table. He's gotta work at the university, but he could be certainly beyond to something. I commend him. I commend like you, Dean Raiden for all his efforts of leading scientists in parapsychology. And they're doing remarkable work. We certainly have to be careful of what we're doing with subject to criticism. Certainly my work is too, subject to criticism. And I talk about this stuff to some people reluctantly because they can't relate. And because their reality, subject to science is different. So, okay. And we go to friends who meet our same reality, in a sense, giving our own personal criteria. And sometimes we have that, we meet that soulmate or best friend. But, you know, it's a complementarity principle that Bohr wrote about. Well, well, the human beings have to compliment each other. But the other part of that and the scary part of that, and I know you've encountered this already. And as you push forward and you push the edge, what you're doing, then you're gonna encounter it even more is the divide, the gap. You know, 20, 30 years ago, we used to talk about the gap between people who are computer literate and those who are not. Well, imagine how that gap is widening. And then imagine if we make one of these leaps, how that gap becomes even larger. And how we have different classes of citizens, different classes of fellow human beings. I forget the colleagues, you know, that we're just like, well, you can't even talk about it with those people. And does that lead to kind of an elitism? And are we, here's the real question, are we already seeing that and we're not totally aware of it? Are we seeing a group of people that have made decisions that feel that they have to be made at a level that the rest of us can't fully understand and they're just gonna push the ball forward because they have to. They can't stop and explain the big picture to everybody. In general, without getting into specifics, does that concern you that there is this, whether we want to or not, we're widening the gap? Well, in other words, you know, I did this my whole life in this field. I'm hitting a ceiling. Where do I go? I'll go here. What else can I do? I don't, you understand? Well, where do I direct my research now, in a sense? Now that I have all these experiments behind me, what does it say? Where do I go? What's it telling me? We get chess game. Then you have a peak experience as many people do. That's what motivates them to get into research because it does. I had a shared death, not a near-death experience. And then the Kundalini, if I was young and I did research in there, but I did research for the Doctor-Egmental Research Foundation. And I published that article in the Scientific Exploration. We wrote it, Russ Scalpone and I wrote it, but Ray Hernandez helped develop the survey. And many people did, like Brent Reigns and Barbara Mango and a few others. My dear friend, Rose-Marie Ellen Geiley, who you may know, she published my last book on seeing force, but I'm getting off the topic. You know, we're driven by our past here. Again, time's an illusion. My past research, my past experiences, drives our destiny, drives our future. So if we look at time as a 3D thing, you know, the past exists and to some extent the future may too. Where do I want to go? At least we consider it and we can alter our past making decisions. That's a 3D thing, obviously. We're stuck with that. Are we seeing 4D, 5D in the near-death out-of-body experience, of course. And do we gather more type of consciousness? Or I should say interact with some information field or whatever it may be. Are we leaving just way the rest of everybody behind? Are we just creating this other way of thinking about a kind of two-class, have-and-have-not society in the people who can get to this point of understanding this and understand the implications of- It's widening. Oh, is it widening now? Like Moore's Law, like out of control so much. Look at you. Look, you know, like I tried to capture this for people at the beginning. You start as a totally legit guy, legit in the sense that pure science. Harvard giving you the pad on the back. Cambridge pad on the back. Published papers, all that. You were part of that machine. And now your rocket ship out there. E.T., no one touches E.T., you do. Near-death experience, no one touches that. A Kundalini picket. You're there and I'm tossing you these things and you're just batting them around like no problem. What percentage of people can get to the point where they can join this conversation in a real way? And since we know that number is crazy low, then what are, when we get together, like you said, when a group of us get together and say, okay, we can kind of think about this and talk about it, we're gonna make decisions that are gonna leave out 99 plus percentage of the population. What are the implications of that from a kind of democracy standpoint, from a world governance standpoint? It's scary to think about it from that way and that's where I think we're at. It's scary, it's heavy. It's scary to think about. I think that gap is widening with the advances in technology, which is geometrically evolving. Where do we see consciousness studies, mindfulness meditation, all those practices that you were referring to that the documentary and other things contribute to us, the betterment of one's personal happiness, relax all of that. Whatever it may do to comfort the individual. And now we see a little bit of that. We only see a few Dean Ray and Schwarz's, et cetera. It's scattered about. I don't know if I'm in that camp, thank you very much. I don't know if I am, but in part, experience has motivated me to talk about this very much reluctantly. I'll be honest with you, Alex. I wouldn't talk about my Kundalini and Shared Death experience two, three years ago. And people just start coming out of the closet. Obviously, stigma, we all know that. But I understand all that. And I understand spiritual emergency and unique to everybody varies considerably among people, but I get it. Like I said, when I had a Kundalini experience, we could be in a tree hugger from here in time. I never was always like nature, of course, but I did have that interconnection, that sense of oneness that the holographic theory of consciousness talks about, from instincts to cognitive function to OBEs, to NDEs, reincarnation to oneness they talk about. People always talk about that state. What are they talking about? What does oneness mean? It means one more than zero or less than two. But the subject of science to it, right? The gap is widening. We don't nurture it. It doesn't evolve, obviously. Little kids should practice mindfulness meditation, among other things, of course, that can help the brain structure, as you wisely mentioned earlier. And it does. It does support a physiologic function, immunological function. I could bore the audience to death on the benefits galore. It may not cure cancer. It may not do XYZ. But it's very beneficial if I may say for the third time. ESP is real. I know that. I know the data. It doesn't mean I can read the dollar bill in your pocket. It's statistical. It's subtle. It's real. You see? So with Dean Raiden, a Diane Hennessy Powell, who does ESP work with Savan, she's in our film. Jeff Long, an oncologist who also does NDE research, pat him on the back. A few come out of the closet. And Dr. Sue, in some change, I've talked to many doctors who've changed their business in their 30s thriving practice. They changed it after an NDE or an interaction with the non-intelligent, non-human intelligence coming from a spaceship, whatever the story is, we all know. I hear it all the time. What am I supposed to do with that, Alex? That's what you see. That's what I always ask myself. Somebody tells me I'm more sane than me. A gray walked into my bedroom. Michael J. Carter, a friend of mine, you know Michael, a great Bob. I said, Mike, proof to me and all this other reality that people talking about Bob, a gray touched me. I may have talked about this on my last show and apologize if I did a great job. No, you didn't. You know, it was that might be a gray touched me. Reverend J. Michael J. Carter, he's not so kind. He's a beautiful dude. I wish I was as beautiful as he was, you know, in many ways. I like to think I'm evolving. I like to think my experience has helped. I think they did. I'll be truthful, far from perfect. You know, and again, don't interpret what I say literally. But I love talking with you. Again, as you mentioned earlier, who do you talk to about this? Where is the evolution of this direction? It's limited. But that's why I'm doing that. You go to mind row and ions. How many exist? There are a few. I looked at all these consciousness organizations worldwide to support the film. There's one in Portugal. There's one over here. There's one over here. You got to look in front of them. Why? Why is that the case? Why is that the case? Because this is something I've been hammering on for 10 years. And even when I talk to people I love and respect, like Bruce Grayson, they're reluctant to go there. And that's like, if you don't think that's fucking conspiratorial, wake the fuck up. I mean, we spent, we spent. You know, it's just itself evident in the fact that you look at where we've put resources, right? We've put in not a ton of resources, but you're going to go talk to Joe McMonichol and you're going to talk to him about remote viewing. That was, you know, now at this point, that's 40 years ago. They were not asking the question about his consciousness and illusion. They were, they were. No. It was, how do I operationalize this? How do I, I mean, co-weaponize it? Yeah, to be real. And that question is still being asked today. And the, it keeps popping up over and over and over again, everywhere we look that the real insiders of the government secret agencies, of course they're doing that. So when we contrast that with what you had to endure in your academic life, and they still do, you know? I mean, I say this all the time. What's his name? Yuval Vali or whatever, 30 million books. You know, the darling of the 60 minutes he's on, the lead scientist, Obama, you know, Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, telling you consciousness is an illusion. I know I'm a scientist. You're a meaningless robot, and by biologic robot meanings universe, which implies that consciousness is an illusion. There's no two ways about it. So when you say that, Bob, come on. I mean, that is like so paper thin. Again, it's this gap. It's where they're saying, look, give that to the normal, to the normies out there. Just let that be the message. And then let's get on with really trying to figure out what ET is up to. Let's figure out what the demons and angels are up to. Let's go figure that out, cause that's the important work. And just let the rest of these people think it's all just, you know what, this, yes, it's two UAPs. There's the unidentified aerial phenomena, and then you have your unacknowledged access programs. Yes. Okay. You know what I'm saying? Right, where the nukes and all that, you know, from an office in the Pentagon, of course, I get it. I've talked with John Alexander a few times about that. Who, as people know, is for the CIA, non-lethal weapons, interesting individual. Then goes Shamanic, kind of like. Yeah. Like you and I wait, I mean, there's nothing there, but you know, they have done psychopsis reel. I've talked to people who've been there. Yeah, you know, I don't want to really get into it, but it's real, and it's UAP related too. They infiltrate. Believe me, they infiltrate, they make friends. And how did they get information the best way, really? To listen to you, see what people are doing, whatever they do, and join research foundations, you know what I'm saying? And set people up, and that's their job. And they're not going to hurt people, they're just gathering information. That's all they do, that's it. But again, discipline-specific, that's what they did all their life. Now, retired, what am I going to do? Hey, so I'm going to figure out what consciousness is from a public view. May I learn something? Like the UAP, same thing. Experiences, I know people. And I know people who know people. You know, everybody says that, and I hate to be in that position. You know, that's why I wrestle so much. Not that I know no people, but at the start, I hear from credible sources, they'll send people to some major experiences. They know major experiences. And they'll try to establish, you know, close relations with some to gather information to maybe even experience what they're experiencing to learn of what is consciousness. Psychedelic drugs too, the whole bit. And there is something to learn. In a way, in a way I applaud them. I hope they don't misuse or abuse people here. You know what I'm saying? Tap phones, and probably they do. You know, I get collects every now and then, who to help tech knows, maybe a little paranoid in my old age, but they do. Well, what you're saying is important, is really important and is really next level. And that's that, how would we feel if they weren't doing that? In a way, that's really the implications of what you're saying, is we'd be like, hey, get on this. You know, we're not totally comfortable that they're doing it in secret and they're not revealing it. And they seem to have all these conflicting motives that play out in different ways. But hell yes, we want them to, you know, somebody has to be looking. We know these unacknowledged access programs will obtain information with that new research office. They're a little shared in what they want to share. And I'm not going to, you know, I applaud them that they went this far. What was that the past 70 years? Let's not get into that, please. You know, what is disclosure? This isn't disclosure, that is at a little spoon, you know, teaspoon level, maybe. But heck, they are going to, they're going to not tell fully what they know, so that there's breaking news on CNN that there's life after death, that ET is here, they're interacting with human beings. We have the evidence, you know, I looked at the evidence from thousands of people, I've talked to hundreds of people, the evidence is there. In my mind, they're interacting with non-human entities more often than not, not associated with the UAP, but there's a physical component to it, maybe 20% of the time. And people go through that. We know the details on the table, the sexual stuff, hold it, let's not go into those details. Without going into the details, how are you processing the, I hate the word, but everyone will immediately know what I'm talking about, the demonic hypothesis kind of thing. I hate the term because it's overlaid with this Christian, cultish kind of Abrahamic religion that just doesn't, doesn't make sense from a historical standpoint. And yet at the same time, we have the sense that there is some reality, malevolence in the extended realm. We don't know how to process that, how to sort that, but when you're being raped by an ET and then as you mentioned, and that was one of the followings out I had with the free organization was like, look, if you can't wrap your arms around the whole data set, then you're just doing some form another of misinformation, disinformation, whether you want to or not. So if that's part of the data set, we have to acknowledge it. Well, yeah, it's a terrible experience for me, but usually the first few times, how can it not be? But those who had it more than 10 times, Russ and I looked at it all the day to try to dissect that. The long-term experiences by number of interactions with non-human intelligences out of 1,1100 people, possibly 80% more than their experiences to continue. So, what does that mean? So, but very oddly on, more negative, just like there's 10, 20% hellish NDEs as well. Here's the problem I have with that and I'd love for you to comment on it. Again, this is like deep inside baseball. Who cares? I so applaud you guys for doing that work. Absolutely fundamental important and that is the free work, the survey work on contact experience, which kind of for people who don't know, who kind of mirrors like what Jeff Long did with near-death experience, start collecting this with carefully designed scientific studies. And I always say this, if you think surveys aren't scientific, ask yourself the question, how do we measure depression in people? We go out and we survey them and we say, do you feel depressed? That's exactly right. We'll go do this, now how do you feel? And we ask it 40 different ways. We have all a grief, you know, we could go into all these different ways. Of course surveys are incredibly powerful scientifically. So why wouldn't we use them for near-death experience? Of course we would. Why wouldn't we use them in the case of contact experience? Of course we would. You're a part of that project, applaud you. Here's the difference. There is another baseline with near-death experience and that is Peter Fennec, Penny Sartori, Sam Parnia, Pim Don Lamo, go into the cardiac arrest ward and they say, okay, people are having all these near-death experiences all over the way, drowning, jumping off to a Golden Gate Bridge, all this other thing, forget all that. I wanna focus on this narrow physiologically controlled experience of having a heart attack. I seem to know certain things about what's gonna happen, brain gonna stop, heart's gonna stop, brain's gonna stop, blood flow, I can measure all the rest of the stuff. Now, that becomes somewhat of a baseline. So when that data matches up with Jeff Long's data, I start getting really interested. The problem potentially, and I'm not, I don't wanna overblow this, the problem potentially with the free thing is now we no longer have that baseline. So we have to start asking questions. Who's responding to this survey? Not in like, crazy people are responding to it, but just like, if I got raped by an alien, do I fill out a survey online saying I got raped by an alien? And if it skews it even a little bit, does that start to skew the numbers? So there's all these, again, applaud you for getting the data. Yeah, yeah, look, I respect that question now. There are certainly advantages, as you mentioned, of course, how do you measure love? You can't, this is, again, we lack that subjective science and that's the necessity and importance of where we need to go, scientifically speaking. The skew the results, look, I've done experimental experiments my whole life. I've taught research methodology, all that. I know there's limitations to every study in so many dramatic ways, it's remarkable. The fact, there's of course limitations to our survey. We did, however, a test for validity, external and internal, and did a lot of internal statistical analysis. Ross, you see, Scalpone who worked with me directly on the article is an expert in statistics and research design, and he teaches it. So he, I needed him, and I used him to figure it out and we really tested that, and that came out all good. We look for repeaters, we had some emotional questions, of course, of course, the point is this, we had 3,200 people, over 3,200 people who responded. Even if there was, even if there was 20% that say that I was right by aliens they have psychosis of some type that's causing them to say that, that's their reality. Even if you include the psychotics, and it can't be 20%, that's way higher than the normal incidence for that. But of course you're gonna have individuals who are inappropriate, who are lying for whatever reason, and there's ways to tell, however, in a survey, especially with Ross Scalpone, he knows how, not perfectly, nothing's perfect, but he knows how to moderate that to some extent. 3,200 people, the numbers says something significant, even if you include psychotics, that's my point. And when 80, 85% are saying the same general thing, you can't ignore that. We're talking about thousands of individuals, you see? So I understand your point very well. You have to interpret the data very carefully and statistics can be very misleading. I know that. And I don't mind you at all for, and I appreciate the question, Alex, because I often don't have the opportunity to discuss this. Nobody even reads the article. I think it's so important. I'm not patting myself on the back, I'm not at all. I think it's important for the field. Let's make sure that we don't gloss over that because we kind of skipped ahead. Back up, what is the result of that? So you go out, you did a beautiful job there of explaining better than I did. How a scientist who's familiar with this kind of work could compile a survey, could feel confident in the results. What's the big picture message from the results in terms of contact experience? 80% of them say it's like having an OBE being floated up into a matrix, non-physical. Positive, positive. And it's, but it's positive, right? There are positive aspects. I mean, it's ought to interpret because they're using language again and responding to questions that are, again, qualitative in nature. It's not one on one is two, but we're trying our best to make sense out of that information. Generally, yes, positive. Generally, yes, how could it not, however, impact you when you have that kind of experience? Let's face it. It's non-3D is what they describe into a matrix and they interact with beings, et cetera, not all. And then we get at the positivity factor in a very unique way, in ways that are quite complex. And again, the vast majority overall, say the whole shebang was positive. Those that had the physical, I saw them in come in my room, they took me by the hand, I dematerialized somehow. I felt weird when it happened and I float up and they do X, Y, Z. And then they return me with my pajamas backwards, you notice, you know, historic. Again, small percent, physical, small percent, that's about 3,200. But again, when I say small percent, that's still a lot of people, obviously. They regard that much less positive than those that have the negative experience. And that makes sense. They see reptilians, more commonly see the small grays, of course. We look at that too, types of beings, and you read the article, mainly small and energy beings, a very high energy beings, interesting. The whole spectrum, how can it not be intensely fearful? So you get a lot of that. You get qualitative responses that are hard to understand, you know, hyperdimensional, unconditional love. It carries over to qualitative reports from NDE years and OBE years. Again, losing some aspect of brain function. You're not impeded by the physical body. You're going beyond that. Now you're going on a UAP little trip with a non-human intelligence, whereas my neighbor has the same sort of similar thing with the near dex, death experience, and Mr. Jones over here, you know what I mean? The OBE, the psychedelics. Look, even for a film, we were invited to an ayahuasca retreat in Peru by a conitana. He was a well-known individual, very bright. Well, very experienced with ayahuasca. And, you know, I'm tempted, but so tempted. And his comment to me is, I don't want to do it. You know, I've done, I messed around in the 60s with the Grateful Dead in Central Park, if you know what I'm saying? But not now, but he says, once you come here, people can't help not to. Can't help not to. You know, he's probably right. Amazon jungle, you know, who the heck knows? The other thing I've heard, and I'm sure you've heard this too, but if you go, you're part of the process, kind of with your shared death experience, you know, people go and they don't drink the drink and they still have the experience because, you know. Resonance, yeah, yeah. I tell the symmetric effect that they see in EEG labs, you know, the way you can. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, also I interviewed related to this, Shirley Black, who has done PK research in labs. She's done, she's been a subject of, because she can make the wheel spin and do all that in all these labs, including UVA, including Orion and documented, carefully controlled and all the rest of this. But what she reports to your point is, Ben, everyone got so excited that they went out to dinner, Mexican restaurant. Well, let's bring the wheel along and now everyone can do it once the vibe is right and the energy is right. Like Global Consciousness Project. Yeah, exactly. Here's the big question. Small contributors, you know, you only change a random number generator, right? But you can do it individually too. Yes, yes, here's the big question that like burns in my head. And I don't know the answer to it and I've kind of been pulled back and forth, but like, so you go and you study E.T., like you just said, and they go to the matrix and it starts lining up with the NDE. And then one of the things you shared in the last interview we did, which is excellent, please go back and listen to that. Please go read Unseen Forces and please help Bob out with this documentary about to make sure that it happens. But having said that, you're talking about the semantic comparison, again, carefully done, controlled study and these things start matching up. That is your experience with a DMT, the words you say, ineffable, dissolution vehicle, all this stuff and others. They're boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They're matching up and a good researcher can go and say that. And the near-death experience is matching up too. My big question is, what can we start to say about the nature of the order of the structure of consciousness? Is there God? That's where we're headed to make it kind of a crude, basic question. Consistently, the near-death experience, people come back and says, yes, there is this hierarchy. I felt it, I experienced it. And most importantly, what Bob Davis documents in peak experiences. Again, this is kind of tangential but it's completely not tangential. Fundamental to this is Bob points out that these experiences are transformational in a way that we're comfortable measuring from a social science standpoint. People come back and they're changed. They live different lives. And we don't know how to make that happen. Normally, we don't know how to make that happen with drugs, with therapy, with anything else but they come back and they're transformed. Now that is, so we have to factor that into the peak experience. Are they transformed because God changed them? Because there's a hierarchy of consciousness and at that hierarchy of consciousness level, they can go, boom, you should, here's the right path to be on. I'm gonna send you on that right path. Well, you know, yeah, yeah, well. You know, I'm gonna be mentally tired after this interview, Guns. I love it. This is very cool. That's why I look forward to talking to you. Like that question, you know, I never got anything like that. It's beautiful. Yeah, people who have these experiences do report interacting with Supreme beings. You know, oftentimes it's based on one's experience but there's also people who are trying to research in the brain, the God spot. You know, you repeatedly say the word God, God, God among other things related to religiosity and you see a little piece over here, light up a lot, you know, the fMRI. So people are getting into that. Is that, does that component, the physical component of, is there a God spot to begin with that we don't know? But people's report, yeah, I've interacted with the deity of some type. Is that, boy, maybe both do. I would say if there is a higher power, not your time yet, go back. Or unconditional love when I saw that person. It was, it was the one. I know it realer than real. We hear these things all the time. Science can't do anything with it, but not designed to. We can't look to science. We have to look to ourselves and share it with others and try to educate people. But some people just, if maybe for physiologic reasons, epigenetic inheritance, you know, we inherit maybe a spirituality that search for truth. And we do, I believe, carry a lot of the past. They ask the same questions as we do, you know, in different ways. It would same suit, you know, same different tech, you know, different questions, different toys, same darn thing, same phenomena. You know, it's in the Bible, folklore manifested in different ways. And you could turn my book into a folklore book written in 600, whatever, it's 627. You know, the Bible is filled with more paranormal than you can find anywhere. And quantum physics is a science of the paranormal if you wanna, you know, go into many sciences. So we talk about quantum physics. It's not routinely adopted, accepted, or some principles are, of course. But again, they are mathematically derived and that doesn't mean that's physical reality, you see. That's physical reality. Let me emphasize that point. Again, there is subjective reality and we're slaves to that with the brain. We're slaves to our sensory systems and everything else that makes us tick. So that there's two realities in my mind. There's a subatomic reality. There's a neus period. All of that stuff, it's a personal information exchange. That's reality. You can get it at the level of consciousness where when you're meditating or you have an NDE and you see God and you transform, how can you not be? Or meditation with the body. You're slaves to the body. So let's see what I can do while I'm in this body compartment, whatever you wanna call it and expand my consciousness using maybe a biofeedback machine in my mind, mirror, hemisync, I'll go to Monroe. I know a lot of people that went to Monroe. Why? That's the question. Well, we achieve expanded awareness. I looked at all of these places, expanded awareness, relaxation, moderate health. I don't announce it. I support it wholeheartedly. It's beautiful, beautiful. The question is few and far between in terms of people who adopt those practices, read about it. But what you're doing, don't you see? I'm trying to do the same darn thing. You do a beautiful job behind the microphone. How long you do it for 15 years? You educate. You have a lot of followers. I don't know if people are aware of that. And I've listened to you and I'll say it again, for many years and you have many educated guests and you challenge in a way that's very unique. I can't explain it other than it makes me think, as I said, very deeply into myself. And that's very healthy for me. It's almost like if I'm going to a psychologist, I'll be honest with you, but you're trying to get at the subjective, the essence. That's what you're doing. And I applaud you for that. Most of the time I go on shows. So, Bob, what was your shared death experience like? You know, Bob, are you doing a film? Tell us about it. You know what I mean? One sentence, not wrong with that. Not wrong with that, but you go down deep. Very cool. You're very, very kind to say that, Bob. So tell you what, let's return to the film, The Consciousness Connection. At the end of the day, the film is out. PBS would be great. I don't know about that audience, but PBS would be great. No, I just mean that I don't know. No, I agree. I agree. You got to tweak it. What is the shift? What do you want people to come out? What's the shift that you want to happen? What are people ready for is another way of putting it. What are people ready for that this film can bring? And I'm going to go one step further. I'd go on with these questions too far sometimes, but I want to point out to people what I was saying at the beginning of how unique it is to talk to someone who can process this information at this level. I mean, just take what he was just saying about ED contact experience. I mean, that is so far out there for most people. And for Bob, it's just another fill in a slot of a hundred slots that he's filling in. What are people ready for with the consciousness connection, the gap that you might be able to fill? Now, wake up. Wake up to the complexity of reality, that millions of people have any experiences that are unexplained, but are very important in terms of our understanding of who and what we are. Not that we have the answers, but I think this can make the core come out of the bottom like many experiences have. That's transformational process indeed, but there's science behind it as you show the mystery of consciousness. We'll talk about it in varying ways, but the ultimate thing is what can we do with it to improve people at the personal and societal level? And that's the issue that you keep driving at, which makes perfect sense. But in order to do that, we have to try to understand better the research that people are doing now, the results that they are coming up with, what people are reporting on a subjective level after their NDE or OBE, et cetera, and try to integrate and make sense as best we can with uniform principles that are adopted by science today. It's not easy to do. And how do you capture that in the documentary of one hour documentary? And we have the pieces. We have, please, people can go to the website. We have the pieces. The people who want to be interviewed are part of this and they can fund the film, of course, and I hate to say that. I'm not begging by any means, but if you have six months and you don't know what to do with a few dollars and you like the message, you know, hey, 20 bucks would be nice. You know, it was a nice gesture, whatever, whatever, even $1. The point is it's more the commitment and support. And we have too few to do that. I don't think people are ready in mass numbers for this. It may be, we have a hard wire differently. Some people can't accept it, right? And we know that. They'll never believe in UAPs unless they walk onto the ship or the same thing with other. Phenomena, people are experiencing. That is transformational indeed. That is ego disillusion. It evokes that kind of process where again, they're not the center of the universe anymore. They revolve more around the world, more caring and apathetic. We know the outcomes. And when we say a transpersonal experience, if you live in more specific, I say in a nutshell that they become a little bit more humane. And they're on a spiritual quest. The cork is out of the bottle. They want answers with fierce determination. And I think there's millions of them out there. And I'm one of them, don't you see? But I have the science background and I'm trying to do a little bit with that, write an article, give it a little lecture and then just sell this out there. But don't you see? I ask the same question that you're asking me, Alex. Why me? I say it all the time. It is an internal struggle. And then I say to myself, I go back. I had a shared death experience. I had a Kundalini experience. You know, my friend in the lab who I worked with for years, we had a very, very strong relationship. In a different place, in time, we'd be married, if you know what I'm saying. It was perfect. She told me in my lucid dream that she died. I felt a suffocating and I knew. Again, how do you define that? I knew she died. You know what I'm gonna say? That morning I found that she died. Then the Kundalini, my body is doing one thing and my mind is doing another. There's a sense of duality. I can't explain it. There is the sense of knowingness. You see, not oneness. I had a little of that interconnectedness. People get at it with the holographic universe model, the other theories, other descriptions by peak experiences through their interactions with the, why am I talking about? I know, non-human entities. I get it, man. I get it because there's so many of them, don't you see? And they're very same individuals. I got a taste of it, don't you see? So, Bob, you know, they didn't even have to do something about it. So now I had to documentary. Wait, we mentioned. They made it from current time entertainment. So he's done me a award winner. This is gonna be very a hit. And dream time entertainment. Hey, they do documentaries on PBS, all the shows, travel, you know, they're their first class. I wanna play the trailer in just a minute, but I want to put an exclamation point on what you just said because I asked it to you last time. And anyone who's been around this field, it's gnawing at the back of your head with you realize it or not. What are the odds that Bob Davis would be, Dr. Bob Davis would do all these incredible things from an academic standpoint, then would have a rather profound and unique UAP UFO experience, then would have a shared death experience, then would have a Kundalini experience. We're talking about statistics a minute ago. You go put any kind of statistic you wanna find on each one of those four events, multiply them together and send me an email. Tell me what you get in terms of a one out of whatever chance. Here, let's play this clip from the upcoming movie, The Consciousness Connection. Here's the trailer. Once you experience it, you can't go back. You suddenly, you know that reality is unbelievably bizarre. And the dimensionality of consciousness is going to move us into advancing who we are as humans. But we await the paradigm shift, which is critical in terms of our understanding the science of the subject of integrating it with the science of the physical in order to better understand consciousness, reality and maybe a little bit more about what life and reality is all about. Our guest again has been Dr. Bob Davis. It's been fantastic having him on. I certainly hope you check out his books in addition to the film. You'll find them all on the website. We'll have links to him. Bob, it's been great having you on. What can I say, come back soon. We're definitely gonna have to do an annual thing, like we said. Any time, you're the best out there. And I'm talking with you, it's wonderful. So please keep me in mind. And when the documentary is done, it will be done. Not sure what year or decade, but you know, that's why we need some support from people. I hate to keep emphasizing that to make it real. And that's true with all films and books and everything else. But anyway, thank you so much for all you do and to enlighten people and help in the process of seeking truth. And that's the bottom line. You do really a, it's critical. You know, that's the paradigm shift right there. Why are you doing what you're doing? You say, that's beautiful. And I question it myself and I share that with you. Thank you so much. Thanks again to Dr. Bob Davis for joining me today on Skeptico. One question I could tee up about 50 questions from this one, but the one that intrigues me is, what about the gap? What about the gap we are creating? Does that concern you? Let me know your thoughts. I know there's probably a pretty small audience for this kind of stuff at this level, but I don't care. To me, it seems like the most interesting, important stuff to talk about. So if you are tuned in to what we're talking about, please jump in the conversation because realize there's not that many of us who are really working on it at this level and we need to kind of wave hide each other and chat about what we know and what we're trying to figure out. So join me, come over to the Skeptico forum or track me down otherwise. That'll do it for this one. Until next time, take care. Bye for now. Now.