 We have our own sink. We never have to leave. All right, excellent. Yeah, we can go now. So, thank you everyone for attending and welcome to the community, Debra, for those of us who have just joined us. We are pleased to welcome Deb Nicholson to talk to us about the people side of our projects. Thank you very much for coming, Deb. All right, thanks for having me. So, I kind of went all in on the bug thing. So, if bugs creep you out, you're going to want to not look at the slides. But I was thinking about, like, you know, when we have problems, we file bugs, right? So, the people side has its own problems and open source is all about the people. I think most of us, we want to be welcoming and we're, like, trying to, like, always be, like, come on in or join us here or be part of our project. But sometimes we make mistakes. It, like, we leave an opportunity on the ground. Or we're trying to be funny and cool and we messed it up. Or we somehow, like, conveyed, like, we're like, oh, a mustache contest, that's so fun. And then it's like, wait, we kind of just conveyed we're only expecting men here. Or something else where it's like, oh, only young people are welcome here or only people without children. Because we thought, like, we'd add this fun thing and then, like, halfway through it was like, uh-oh, that's not for everyone. That's only fun for me or for the person who thought of it. So, this is, you know, when you've got that kind of a situation or maybe one where you sort of conveyed a lot of respect for non-coders in some way, which a lot of projects do, they're like, oh, this is real devs only, whatever, or that kind of thing. So, you know, basically, like, we've made a mistake of omission. We've forgotten to include everybody that we actually want to have be part of our projects. And this might be, like, all male panels, which sort of says to the world, like, our organizers didn't care enough to try and find anyone who wasn't a man. To be on this panel. Or stuff where it's like, wow, is it ever whitened here? My husband is not whitened. He went to an event with me once. I won't call them out because it's the event because they're not the only one. But he was like, wow, is it ever whitened here? And I was like, oh, yeah, I mean, I knew that. But I didn't know that. Until I heard you say it, I didn't realize, like, wow, I bet it feels really weird to be here for you. So, you know, it can be tricky. And sometimes things that, you know, don't look weird or harmful to us, look weird or harmful to other people. And so, you know, like, come to our meetup. It's at this dude's house. You just go down this dark alley. You'll know you're there because the light's out. And then you just knock on this door and ask for spud. And it's like, oh, huh. I think I'm busy that day. I didn't say what day it was. Yeah, I'm busy whatever day it is. So it's like stuff that might not seem weird to you because they're like, spud's great. His basement's awesome. And no. Another thing that might happen, exclusionary language, like where you think you're being welcoming and you've kind of said, like, hey, I'm going to get my guys on this. Or like, I want all these, I want all you guys to come. Or something like that where it's like, oh, I could do better. Maybe folks or, you know, minor mistakes. Not like, you know, I'm not talking like kind of Hitler level stuff here. So I feel like I have to qualify that now being from the US, right? Anyway, negative experiences have real consequences for project health. This is from the open source survey. And they said that 21% of the people who had experienced or witnessed a negative behavior said they stopped contributing to it, to that project because of it. And so like, not only is it like the person it happens to, like it also like another, some like 30% of people have witnessed something happening to someone else and have been like, yeah, that's cool. I'm going to go find something else to do. So these are bugs. These are things that we could fix in our projects. So when your Spidey sense says like, this doesn't, I feel like we could be doing better. Think about like what that is. This is not for everything. Don't like file a bug with your community. If you should be calling the police, for instance, these are for minor fixable things. I just want to, you know, I don't want you to be like, oh yeah, I saw someone stabbing a person. And then I, you know, I said, hey, stabbing's not cool here. This is not for that problem. That's a different, that's a different problem. I hope you don't have that problem. And oh God, now that if you do, you're going to think of me. I asked for that. Anyway, so method one, calling in. So people know what calling out is. You like take the Twitter, you tell the internet, like you do it in public. Calling in is different. I used to book bans before I decided to spend that energy with free software. And I was friends with this band. They were called Hoag. And almost no one had heard of them when I was booking them at this like divey place called the chopping block. And they were playing maybe like their third show. There were probably like five or six people that were not roommates or significant others of the band and me. But so they rip into like their second song and one of the people in the band misses the opening. The lead singer is on the mic and he says, er, okay, let's just start again. Which is totally fine, right? But then he gives the rhythm guitarist a look and he says, and maybe next time we can figure out how to play our own song. And it was like, ooh, ah, you, ah. And he's probably thinking like, oh, this is funny self deprecating humor. And I pulled him aside later and I said, yeah, that, it sounded like you came off as mean. You seemed really mean. And, and you also kind of broadcasted that you don't think the musicians you're playing with are very good. Which is like a really weird thing to do because you're, there's only like five people here that don't already know you. And now they're gonna be like, yeah, that band, I mean, they're not good musicians or anything. You know, like you just told them that that's what they should think. So, you know, so I let him know. I'm like, don't, don't do that again. Like, if you want people to think like, you're good. And you're probably thinking that we don't have a band, right? But in open source, we're often on stage. Like we do all this stuff transparently. We have all our mailing lists everywhere. And, you know, in channel, et cetera, et cetera. So we're like kind of on stage all the time. So if you're gonna slag your rhythm guitarist on IRC, everyone's gonna see it, for instance. So calling ineffectively. We'll take a look at this. So first, I took him aside. I didn't like yell from the audience like, hey, don't tell everyone your band sucks. I waited until they were finished. And I pulled him aside and I said, like, you know, I don't think that had the impact that you thought it did. And I assumed that he wasn't trying to be mean. I said, you know, I said, it made you seem mean. I didn't say you are mean. I said, that made you seem mean. Which is, you know, it's an easier place to have a conversation from. Like if you say to someone like, oh, well, you're evil. They're gonna be like, cool, I don't want to hear anything else from you about me. Because that's, you know, that's how we are. We're like kind of like, we don't like to hear that. But if you say like, oh, you like created an impression that you were evil or mean or something. You know, maybe evil's not the best word. But, you know, and then kind of focused on the future. I sort of planted a seed like, you know, maybe next time consider another option or share that in band practice. Like I actually kind of recommended calling in and my calling in, which is sort of recursive. But, and they never did that again. And they, you know, they have a Wikipedia entry and everything, so you know they're for real. And then they all had babies and now they don't do rock anymore. But that's okay. So then the question is like, so if that's how you do calling in, why is it you, right? Why are you doing the calling in? So in this case, I had booked the band. So I already had a relationship. And maybe you're the person who has like a seat at the table. Like you hear something and you're like, oh, you know, like, that's, I have a seat at the table or I'm involved or you've asked me to like, promote your event or promote your project or do something, you know. So you have like some standing as opposed to like, hey, I just kind of see lined in here to say like, you're doing it wrong. You know, it's not as effective as like, hey, given our shared goal around this thing and we want this event to go off well, like we should probably consider not having an all male panel. You know, so if you have that opportunity, then you can use it. You also might have like kind of the perspective. So maybe you're newer to the project or something like that. Or you can see a giant bug that the people in the room cannot. And so you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that, that word is, we cannot use that word, for instance, might be one where it's like, oh, we use that one in Europe all the time and it's totally fine. It's like, not, no, not here. Maybe you have ones that, or we have ones that we use and you wish we didn't. So you say, when you do X, it looks like Y. So, and then try to give them some help. If you're not trying to do Y, try Z instead. So like, let's go back and, oops, the giant bug. So when you have an all male panel at your conference, it looks like you're not trying to involve women in your event. So if you're not trying to convey that, try putting some women on your panel. So that's, you know, just one example. So a few caveats. A lot of people don't like having a bug put in their ear. Like, they don't like, you know, like, hey, you're doing it wrong. Like, you know, it gets us that little, why are you telling me? So you want to be gentle when you do this. You try to give people like, hey, you know, like, I understand you're trying to make this a really welcoming project and I just, you know, I'm trying to help you out here. It's like a bug. If you don't know you have a bug, then you can't fix it. So it's kind of got to be in that helpful spirit. And stick up for folks, but don't speak for others. This is like, especially in a small community, if like, so I know someone who had like a poor experience with like a particular employer. But if I said like, oh, and I describe, you know, they only have one opening. They know exactly who I'm talking about. And if they didn't want to say, I didn't particularly like your, you know, job interview experience, then it's not for me to say like, I know someone who thought your job interview thing was terrible and you suck at hiring. And they're going to be like, yeah, that's like only one person in the last couple months. So I know exactly who you mean, you know, and so that's not for me to say, right? So don't, you know, it can be like, yeah, I want everyone to know I want to patch all the bugs and, but don't speak for others unless you've been given express permission. And then also giving people options instead of threats. This is, I wish I could attribute this better because I love it. But, and for whatever it's worth, I'm like no pad. But, so try instead of be like, oh, if you don't stop using that language, like your project is going to be dead to us. And like, you know, the world will hate you. Kind of be like, hey, maybe you want to try like, just maybe not talk about that part or use a different word or, you know, put code conduct on that. So, so you want, you want to give people options instead of threats. Like, I could go to Twitter with this. It's like, that's never going to be super motivating. And then you got to set a good example. So if we know people don't really like being caught in, you know, so when someone comes and takes your head off, you have to be gracious. And you're like, well, thank you so much for letting me know. Even if they weren't as gentle as you would wish they had been. Because then you sort of set this tone in your project and in your communities that like, yes, I would really, I would like for you to tell me when I am saying words that are weird or making people uncomfortable or setting up a situation where people don't feel welcome. So you got to set that example. In addition to calling in, method number two, communicating shared norms. So outside of open source, we have a lot of ways where we figure out what shared norms are. Like, you know, you probably learned to tie a tie if you're a tie wearer. And there are things, like, there are just things you know. Like, you don't, you don't wear the tie around your head unless you're like a, you know, Aerosmith basically. But, you know, and there are other things that are normal. Like, you don't wear a pirate costume to a golf course unless it's that kind of golf course. But, you know, or, like, and if you're not Sharers Pillar, you don't jump up on the float at a parade. There's just things you don't do. We know that. You went to a parade at some point and you saw that there was a participant and observer thing. Like, no one said, like, hey, if you're not part of the parade, don't jump in. But you knew, like, it was kind of like, just kind of in the air. Aerosmith is a little weirder, like, it's, you know, like what's normal here, right? So sometimes we have to take people aside and be like, yeah, that, you know, that's not going to make you any friends here, you know. And some, you know, you don't necessarily have to pull someone aside. You might just be more explicit about sharing best practices, things that you do, like, oh, yeah, well, we're transparent because. They're not just like, why don't you show everyone the mailing list? You're kind of like, like, narrate what you're doing and say, like, we show everyone the mailing list because we're committed to transparency and it helps us, like, see what's going on and everybody has a sense of where they fit in the process, et cetera, et cetera. So you can do this, like, for both for individuals and for groups. So basically, you want to be the kind of community member that you want your community to look like. Because you're in there. So some of the things that are normal here, like, for instance, like, respecting the licenses and respecting the patent clauses, like, people don't necessarily know this unless they come in. And so, you know, I'd love to see us do more to share our stories and to talk about, like, hey, we chose this license because of this, or, you know, we like to, you know, give badges to people when they have committed their first patch and things like that. So you can kind of, like, always be narrating what you're doing and that helps people who are, like, on the fringes of our community thinking of joining, like, oh, okay, I see how it's going to be and I know why they do this. And, you know, the more you can explain what you're doing, the better it is for someone who's, like, on the fringe considering joining. And, like, with regards to the patent clauses, like, getting help for your lawyers because they, well, they don't natively want to share. Lawyers are not, like, that's not a thing they teach them in law school, like, hey, we're all about the sharing. They're like, no, no, we never had that class at law school. We definitely did not have that class. So, you know, so for us, like, you know, like, if you're at a larger project and you have lawyers, or you have people doing legal work for you, can, you know, try and encourage them to meet other lawyers so that they can find out, like, how we do things here. You can pass along resources that you find helpful, which is great. And also, like, kind of letting people know if you're in this, like, if you're working on one specific technology, like, when you come here to, like, free and open source software, you might find yourself seeing the same people for, like, two, three, ten years. So, if you behave like it's the holodeck your first week in, it's gonna be bad. It's not good. I live in a city, Boston, Massachusetts. We have, like, a first night thing. Do you guys have that here? It's, like, on New Year's Eve. Okay. So, New Year's Eve is, like, it's a big drinking holiday in the U.S. And so, like, what happens is people come in for, okay, you have this. All right, people come in from the subway, like, on the subway, like, from the suburbs, and they behave like, you know, everything they do is, like, doesn't count because it's, like, the city, it's all anonymous. It's, like, no one sees me, like, peeing on the trash can and puking on the bus. It's, like, no, we see you. It's, like, what if you want to move here someday? Like, well, you will know. Like, but open source is not big enough for you to come in and pee on the trash can and puke on the bus. That's what I'm saying. So, if we can kind of help to communicate that shared norm, like, hey, so the way that, like, because we all talk to each other, like, if your workplace is, like, oh, yeah, like, because I work on the pattern issue, it's, like, everyone knows. They're, like, oh, you work for that company that sues everybody. That's, like, so then when you're, like, cool, we have openings. Everyone's, like, I don't want to work for the evil company that sues everybody. You know, but there's other things, too. It's, like, you know, it's not like you're going to work for those workplaces. We all know. So everyone's, like, oh, no women apply, and it's, like, yeah, I have a mirror for you. I can show you that problem. It's, so, so communicating those shared norms because otherwise we will tell people that you're not, you're not doing them. So, so I would say, you know, as much as possible, share and then that will help other people outside the community figure out how to do it. So, becoming an entomologist. Bugs can be beautiful, right? If you don't know why you're not making progress, then having someone tell you, like, oh, you're using this word that's super offensive, or, like, hey, you're trying to get school teachers involved in your elementary school platform and you're having all your meetings at 10 p.m. Guess what? Elementary school teachers get up at 6 a.m. They're not come to a 10 p.m. meeting, especially if it's at Spud's basement. So, you might be like, oh, I guess nobody cares about software for elementary schools. It's, like, no, you gotta stop having your meetings at 10 p.m. And it's, like, oh, wow, okay, that's, like, much better than the sad thing where nobody cares about elementary school software. So, the, like, bugs can be really great, because then you're, like, oh, that's what's wrong. Thank you so much. I think it's important to be offered in the spirit of friendship, because, you know, so you can, like, I see what you're trying to do there, and I think that this might be keeping you from being as successful as you could be. So, it's, like, in this, like, spirit of, like, I want to help, not, like, I enjoy telling people they're doing it wrong. There's, like, people can tell which one you're coming from, and they respond accordingly for certain. So, I did go fast, so we will have time for a couple questions. Pace your credits, because they're important, and I'm one last bug for you guys. Thank you so much. Three in paper, or later. Sorry, can't put that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, orange sweater here. Last one, using email versus person. Mm-hmm. It depends on, like, it kind of depends on the mode that you normally communicate in, I think. So, like, if everything happens in IRC, you know, then you might want a back channel there. Um, because sometimes, like, so I used to have this boss who would, like, send me, like, he almost never messaged me anything, except, like, can you come to my office? I'm like... Uh, so I go in and I'm like, I'm not nervous, what's up? And he's like, oh, uh, we're at a paper tell. So I'm like, okay, okay, so, um, but I'm saying, like, uh, try and, like, if it's a small issue, keep it, like, within your normal channels. Um, but if it's big, you might say, like, you know, but give them a little bit of a sense, like, you don't want to ambush people. So you say, like, hey, I noticed that we've been having a lot of static on the mailing list and I wondered if you had time for a quick phone call to talk about it. Like, not just like, we need to talk. So, give people a little context. Uh, yeah. Yeah, so hopefully you have a code of conduct, uh, for your project and you can say, like, so I keep asking you about this in the spirit of, like, trying to help you get with the rest of the community and the way that we want to do things here. And I would even say, like, you know, if it is more important to you to use, I don't know, pictures of dominatrices in your slides, then maybe this isn't the correct community for you. Um, then, you know, whatever it is, like, you're like, I keep, you know, if that seems more important than kind of going with what makes everyone else in our community comfortable, then this may not be the right place for you. Um, right here. How do you get out of a bed place? How do you get out? Yeah. Open the door. Let's, let's say, like, think and important stuff, but what if things have already gone bad? How do you get back from that? Yeah. So, there's, like, you have to decide what level of commitment you have to that project. Like, um, uh, Sage Sharp said once, uh, there are a lot of open source projects, but there's only one me. So, if you find, like, you're trying to help a project and everyone there is mean and terrible and you've tried to be like, let's be polite, or why don't we try to, you know, keep the name calling that's meaningless and you've done it again and again, you're losing sleep, you're spending hours and hours. Uh, it might not be the right place for you. I would say go find a project that appreciates you. Um, I'm sure folks in here could recommend one if you're looking to hop to something else, but, um, I would say you have to weigh your investment and, and, and look at, like, how much, you know, like, if you've got, like, one or two people amongst 50, like, kick them out. If you've got 50 people that suck and you and one last person that doesn't suck left, go find something else to spend your time on. I mean, you know, if it's your job, you might take a little while to get extricated, but, yeah. Don't stay places as everyone else is like, nope, it's super important that we're mean here. You're like, I don't like that, so this is not a good place for me. Not required to spend my free time working on your free software. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, are we good? Do we have one more? We totally have one more. There's one more question. If not, we're going to transition. Okay. Staying on the topic of, like, things have already gone bad. Yeah. What are good first steps? Like, I'm not thinking that you are the only