 Hello, welcome back to DEI Matters, Conversations with Margaret Cretal Thomas. It's been a while since we've been here and I am so excited today because I have three of my peers who are DEI directors joining me today for our, we're going to have such an amazing conversation. So I am going to let them introduce themselves and after they introduce themselves we can start with the first question but I want to say welcome to everybody. Thank you for being here. So Jessica, can I start with you? Can you just tell us your name? What district you're from and a little bit of how you got into the role? Sure. So my name is Jessica Boston Davis. I'm the director for Equity and Excellence in the Somerville Public Schools. So just not too far away in Somerville and you know I have a longer story that I can tell about what led me into this work to begin with but the short story is I was completing my doctorate at Harvard and finished my last year of my doctorate with the Somerville Public Schools working with the school committee around creating an equity policy and from that policy we kind of developed a role, the role that I ended up taking. So that's how I ended up there. Who would have thought? Your doctorate program led you to your job that you're in. Yes. Great. And then we have Manuel. I've known Manuel for a long time so Manuel can you tell us who you are and a little bit about yourself? Manuel Fernandez, chief equity officer for the city, excuse me for the Cambridge Public Schools. What led me to this position is I was a principal in Cambridge for ten years and we did a lot of equity work and the former superintendent felt that we needed an equity director soon and so I was appointed interim and took on the role in last June and was appointed permanent chief equity officer last week. Congratulations. Congratulations. Thank you. And last but not least Kathy can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself. My name is Kathy Lopes. I am the director of diversity equity and inclusion for the Newton Public Schools and my path to this position really began early in my career as a school social worker and working many years in education, thinking clinically and structurally about the education system. I also for the past 11 years have been an adjunct professor teaching courses around race and oppression and policy so I ended up merging all of that into this role now. Oh that's great. So you all have diverse backgrounds that brought you to this position. I am, I've known Kathy for a couple of years. I've known Manuel for a lot of years and I've just met Jessica because we're in a same group and when I thought about having you all on and just creating questions one of them was as I am seven months into this role one of them was what are some of the successes that you all have met with thus far since you've been in your role. I'm happy to start. I've been in my role now closing in on my second year in this position in Newton and I think that one of the things that we're really proud of is we've been able to come together and create a collective statement about our commitment to this work that we now use across the board. It really grounds all of the work that we are invested in in equity and it was a collaboration of different roles throughout the district and different voices and it's something that we all can default to and say this is why we're doing it and here are some ways to think about what we're doing. So I think that was a really proud moment for the district for us to just solidify our work in a statement that we hold everyone accountable to. I'm glad what I heard you say is that and then you ground that statement is grounding the work that you're doing going forward. That's great. For me I think the as a principal the thing that drove me to be I think about a principal over time was listening to young people and many of the initiatives that we launched while I was a principal in two schools were really driven by what students said they needed. And so when I took on this role I actually did have to go back and forth so where do I begin? How do I start? What do I do? What we decided to do is knowing that I had the role in March and it didn't begin until July or late June I was able to work with some people to gather the voices of young people and do like a listening conference with young people over a series of events. And at the end of that we asked them would you be willing to work with us on launching a summit to talk about young people's concerns? And so we worked with them also along and then in September or September 25th they facilitated 15 young high school students facilitated a summit of high school students talking about what does equity look like feel like sound like in the Cambridge public schools. Beautiful day. One of the most you know in my career one of the most hotwarming things for me but more importantly the outcomes from that work have informed the work of the district leadership, the principals and so on. It's also we've mimicked that process with caregivers, with the LGBTQ plus community we were doing the same with the educators of color and so that all of that all of those initiatives have brought us more and more information and a fresher perspective on what the community needs around equity. What I appreciate what you said about that is that you had listening sessions and from those listening sessions you actually put some things into action because I feel like sometimes we have listening sessions and we all we did was just give somebody story and we put our notes yeah away in the in the drawer and what I appreciate is that from those listening sessions you had some actual steps that included students because we have these jobs because of students so that's that's I really appreciate that. Yeah that's that's really exciting. I think mine is similar so I think there are a lot of areas where I'm so proud and feel like we've been really successful in the work in Somerville. This is now rounding off my third year in this role in Somerville and so I mean as I think over the years through the pandemic I think it was really you know some of my most proud moments were just bringing together stakeholders I mean from school committee to students to community members families you know educators administrators coming together working on plans together we created things like an advancing equity task force which was a diverse group of stakeholders that came together to name the success areas in equity and name the inequities within our system and work together to tackle those things so there's so many things that that my mind goes to but I think for this year similarly centering the voices of students is kind of core to who I am and core to why I'm in education to begin with and this year we launched a student advisory council and so this is a group of 18 young people who are fired up I'm excited because they are being compensated for their time they're earning credit for their time and they are they we did a youth participatory action research project so essentially they created a survey they distributed throughout our district got feedback and from that data now they're analyzing the data disaggregating it but from that data they are similarly identifying areas that we need to prioritize so we just had a listening session with our superintendent with their principal and in those moments when I think about what do we need to create the conditions to create the container in order to allow students to kind of thrive and lead and create the communities and spaces that they want and need and deserve so when I think about the work that that group is doing this year that that kind of brings me a lot of joy and pride in the work that we're doing so similarly that student centered and in the long the same lines the kind of community collaboration has been one of my highest points of success certainly this year that's just amazing the student council and so they that you actually empowered them and you are actually giving them some power to do some things and do some changes and it's not just the adults doing that that's great my next question to everybody is what are some of the challenges and we had we were having a conversation before we started about the n-word I know that has been a challenge and it's probably been a challenge for you all and what are some more challenges that you might have faced since being in this position I mean that there there are many challenges in this work which is why we have these positions and need to really expand this work across the board I think that if I had to think about like some kind of areas of challenges one of which is just there's so many priorities there's so many ways to enter this work and really trying to break it down to you know what's feasible what has to be done over time what do we have to build to get this forward there's there's urgency and pressure from one direction and then and then another direction so I think using the community using student voice really understanding like what are the highest needs what what can we tackle here what do we need to do first and for me I really push on the self critique and the self awareness and the self exploration as to how do you show up how do you maybe participate in harmful systems what do you need to disrupt in your own practices and behaviors and that can be really hard when you have a community that's just saying well tell us what to do how do we fix this and when my response is you need to stop and really do some internal work first and see where you are where you are in this and what role is best served by you as an educator in the classroom or a leader in the school community or a parent you know that speaks on behalf or represents other parents so I would say trying to negotiate and navigate all of the the wants and the asks from all the different stakeholders and all the community members is a challenge that you know I still have to finagle through constantly I heard you said something that I've been saying it's the it's the deflection that you have to do in order to do this work in order to do the adaptive work right in order to do the change of the mindset and stepping into this role I feel like people are like okay so you're here now this should change very quickly and I'm like well this person might have been thinking this way for the last 20 years so you there's those several conversations that you constantly have to have or activities that you have to have in order to help someone to like you said be introspective of this work yeah it's really important there's so many systems that really support this this process this way we have been doing things so it's also you know it's it's not overnight work we have to look at how we participate in what systems have reinforced some really harmful things that we we we benefit yeah sure I mean I would just underscore double click everything that Kathy shared absolutely I feel all of those things similarly in my role I think for me I mean the prioritization is so such a big thing I mean even just me personally I'm like you said you said when you started where do I start like there's all these things going on where do I start but I think the biggest challenge for me is how do we as a system make sure that equity is not extra it's not an extra thing it's not you know we do our we continue to do the way thing we continue to do things the way we have and then we think through a lens of equity in fact it should be the way we are looking at everything it's not a separate checkbox and so what's hard is if you've been doing things for this way for your entire career suddenly you have to shift and consider something that you haven't necessarily always done or I mean there are many people within our district that have been leading for equity before you know the lane the language equity was out so there have been many people who have been doing it kind of on their own but as we think about building a department and joining everyone's team meetings and things like that you know it's it's a shift in practice which can be difficult even if people are willing to lean in and are excited about the role existing and because of the work that will come out of it it does require a shift in practice where equity is not extra you know we're not asking you to create an extra plan you know what I mean it's actually we're asking you to think through the plan that you've already created through a lens of equity we're asking you to look at the data that you've always looked at through these different asking yourself these different questions we're asking you to engage with families in the way that you always you know you've always had these meetings with families but in what ways should you be mindful of and what can you shift so that's been like one of the bigger things along with prioritization that you know I continue to grapple with and continue to think how do I make sure I frame things in a way that feels like it's not an extra kind of burden but it's just the way we do things it's embedded equity is embedded in everything that we do and it lives in everything that we do that's right embedded not extra correct yes I would I think I would agree with everything that Kathy and Jessica said and I would tell you that you could do another hour show just on the challenges of of this work my superintendent speaks about from the very beginning she said equity would be the through line in everything that we do getting there is really the challenge the journey and for me it's I live I mean excuse me I work in a community that is possessive professors to be you know very woke and very progressive very clear on its expectations of equity and inclusion but so much of what it's done in at least in the ten years that I've been there has been transformative excuse me has been performative in getting people to move from performative to transformative is particularly if I can to be to this I do this I do that I do this and what what has changed nothing's changed for meaningful for the kids or sustainable for the kids and ultimately that's why we're here we're not here for any other reason like you know the challenges of equity and inclusion and race and everything in our society a so mammoth that no one person no one institution can solve all the world's problems or just this country's problems and never got so you focus on your own sphere of influence and in doing so you look at what can you move from being something that we say we're doing to something that we can see that we've been doing that we see the outcomes and that's that's the challenge right now is creating outcome-based solutions and initiatives going from that that the technical to the adaptive to make sure that the changes that we make have have impacts on the lives of young people where they go what you know where do they go to college or where they go after high school how successful are they or can they be as opposed to you know we give kids sneakers we give kids all these coats and things of this so every year we feel good about ourselves because we've done that but every year we're giving the same kid a coat and we're giving his kids coats what is changing no this system isn't changing and so we're really working hard with all of the educators the school administrators and even caregivers having caregivers say this is what I need if it's going to make a difference in my life and having kids sell us the same thing and then have educators and principals and others administrators working together to say how do we stop doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same result because we can't keep doing it it doesn't work so my challenge is getting people who think that they are doing the right thing to say okay can you can you make that transform it instead of saying let me put this on my Facebook let me put this on my bumper sticker or my bumper the sign in the yard exactly exactly yeah how do you break the cycle is what I'm hearing you say and not have us feel good about that we did like I said have I put the sign in my yard and I always say you put your sign in your yard however what if I wanted to purchase a house in your community would would it still be the same or now would it change because now you might feel you know I'm bringing down your property or things like that early early in my career I had as a mecho director I had a teacher say to me that we don't have any problem with the black children I mean we have some issues with with certain groups of people but they're not the black people you know and I said with those certain groups of people they live here right so if these 120 kids get up this bus every day if I tell them you're gonna live across the street now you're gonna live here is that gonna make a difference in this community sure it's gonna make a difference in this community and so one of the reasons why I used to say to him that we don't have a you don't have a problem with these kids because they go home every day okay to another community and so how do you get folks to understand that like one of the things about mecho communities as a former mecho director and two people here who been who work in mecho communities is I've always said that the children who live who go to school in these public schools are all mecho students because if you take the mecho program out regardless of how entrenched it may be in any one school or another you take it out you've changed the entire school district okay and so when people begin to look at how these kids bring change and how we all benefit from it and start working towards making this universal and not just a temporary program that runs from sepater to June and ends at you know five o'clock for most kids does looks like diversity does it look like inclusion does it look like belonging does it look like transformation yeah yeah I mean like you said manual we could be here for several days having this conversation you you mentioned something that segues into the next question that I have for you all and being seven months new into this position so all of you all have been in your positions two three years manual this is your first year and you've been doing this work so I kind of look at you in that manner I've been doing this we have been doing this work where would you tell somebody to start because that's where I was kind of and I still was kind I'm still kind of like okay equity lives everywhere where am I supposed to go and I'm I'm a department of what that could be a whole another conversation and so what would you tell somebody who's just entering in this position where would you tell them to start I think you have you have to understand the community you're in so there has to be a process of incess of assessment of listening of learning of really getting a sense of again who are the stakeholders who are the adversaries where does power reside what is the makeup of your community who are the leaders that are moving this work forward and how do you bring them in I think one of the biggest mistakes a district can make when they create this position or they bring on even a small department is thinking like that is your work you go do it I really see myself as a facilitator for the entire school community and that I really partner with school leaders as a consultant and help them build capacity to then go on and do this work in their specific relevant roles so I think that really understanding the makeup of the power that then you begin to prioritize but I work with students in terms of student engagement and efficacy and agency I work with leaders in helping them think about how their training their staff when they're meeting with their staff what's the work in the conversations that they're pushing on their staff I work with parents who will say like come speak to us I'll work with a few of you help you understand then you go back out into the community and use that and build coalition around this so I really see myself as kind of a mover and a facilitator of this work and not the holder not the keeper of this work because that's not sustainable so if I was to be removed from this position I want to hope that the district still has an understanding of what their responsibility is so I think really supporting the the person in this role or the people in this department to have access to all the different components of this work and all the people who can carry it but not leave it on them that you have to understand that they're there to help you grow and help you build your leadership capacity to help you understand the makeup of your school and see it in a way that maybe you haven't before but that this work is for everyone and that for those who are interested in doing this work to really understand or to ask those questions when you're going to what's the support going to look like what's the participation going to look like what are your expectations of me leading this work and how how can we partner everything I agree with yes that was great I'm like yes so I agree with all of that as usual I would say you know you I was thinking about what you were just sharing because I the last meeting I left my district before coming here we had a I had a conversation with a director and in in central office and we asked ourselves what is different in the student experience so just to your point now that we've had several years we're we're talking about adding positions into the department we're talking about budget with you know all these important things and so the question for us as we were thinking through this is what is different about the student experience so I share that to say to build off of your kind of getting to know very deeply the community the stakeholders all in every kind of corner of your community I would also say like what do the students experience like really what is their experience how are you shadowing students are you interviewing the students you know I started with a lot of focus groups and I still do I will be doing listening tours even in the spring going to every school both for students and for staff but really thinking I want to know deeply what the student and when I say the student experience of course there is a wide diversity within that and I want to get to know that what nuance do we need to know you asked you said you mentioned about the power dynamics where do you notice power dynamics and you know be it formal or informal those will be all the kind of questions I would ask myself if I were to start it again or to give advice to someone else and yeah I think I think that's probably where where I would start from there as you get to know one other dish one additional thing that I'll add is you know we talked a little bit about technical versus adaptive some technical being you know the structures in the systems and adaptive being more mindset shifting and one thing I think is helpful to start is to think about in order to do more transformational adaptive work what needs to be true about the systems and structures you know you have to have some technical in order to move some adaptive and so in listening to to the community in getting to know the student experience the student experience diversity amongst it think I tried to think a lot about what structures need to be true in my district in order to advance equity in the way that we saw the vision to do so so that would be the other place I would start you know I would start trying to see where do we build the structures what structures need to exist what check-ins need to happen what mechanisms need to be you know in place in our district in order to kind of advance through some of the adaptive work as you say structures how do you know so what structures need to be uprooted I always think about to write when you say that we need to have these in place in order to do the adaptive work and I know for me I don't want to put another structure on something that is being a hindrance to students and so I know I've been thinking about how do you uproot right what is an obstruction to students being successful and I know one thing that I've did was district I'm doing a district equity audit I've done the focus groups and I'm just feeling like we also need to do the audit to understand what our strengths are and to also know what are some what are those like barriers right and I think it's a lot of us know and sometimes it's people want data so I'm like okay so we're gonna give you data and I think that's the other thing about when you talk about structures we also have think about what we need to uproot and what people need to let go of in order to uproot those things needs to happen I want to go back to the original part of the question because both Kathy and Jessica answered very thoroughly and I have nothing to add to that portion of it it was really talking about you know the DDI person looking outside of themselves and seeing what needs to be done and what do I need to get this work done I want to focus on that person and what it means yeah I benefited from my years of experience and taking this job that during a transition where we had one superintendent leaving and another one coming in that there was no what do you need Manuel what do you want there was no onboarding in the sense that one it was a new department it was a new concept who knew how to onboard me and I wasn't you know I wasn't a youngster I had been around in education for a while so I think but saying that for like the first 30 days and going like what you know where do I zero in where do I what do I and it took me a while and in one of the things that I clearly have benefited from in my life is thought partners and so I had a lot of people some I brought on and some that that I knew I hadn't I barely knew Jessica hadn't met Kathy at you and I conferred throughout the summer in and so at one point I felt comfortable walking in my shoes on this journey but there were people into this work they need mentors they need thought partners we meet monthly with with others across this the region that is so helpful many people look at me and think well he's a veteran he's been around I've benefit from that as much as somebody who just started this work and the only job they've ever had so the whole idea of having a direct connect to the superintendent you don't have to report to the superintendent I get that you know with all the people that work in the superintendent's office they might have to limit but I don't want to be delayed three weeks trying to get an answer to an issue that needs to be resolved if we're gonna really center equity I need it I need it I need a mentor when I'm particularly when I'm young and if I'm not young and not young but new to the work if not a mentor then a partner if not a coach a partner a group like this and this is lonely work often particularly in the case of some of you who are the only person in your position you close the door and it's just you and you're like you're the only one talking in thinking 24-7 equity equity equity equity and everybody I say well what's the curriculum going to look like and if they don't have the through line that you talked about then then then we don't have those they don't have those same type of conversations it's like again equity comes up like black history month oh it's February we have to say something about black people so it's so very important that that like I said to a group recently my friends at Nellie May we got to wrap our arms around each other and hold each other tight through these tough roads because it's good it's it's about to get tougher I think as we as we have any success in any of these communities and centering equity then we're going to find that they're gonna be a group of people who don't like that they're fearful and I do my best to to meet in in in respond to some of their concerns but some things don't they don't relish I would that's not the way I'm looking for they just don't deserve a response okay they did not from me anyway they may deserve a response from somebody else or something else so anyway I do think about I had a young principal call me recently just a quick aside doesn't doesn't work in my district was referred to me as someone just to talk to and here's this young woman he's a black young black educator a principal new to the area doesn't have a lot of friends or colleagues here in and found herself being asked to leave we'll pay you for the rest of the year but you're pushing equity too hard and folks and folks are really getting nervous and stuff only black adult in the building that happens every day when you're alone so we need to make sure that if the number one thing for me anyone coming aboard is who do I talk to who do I lean on who do I connect with yeah that was the first thing I said I am I found a mentor who's outside of this organization that I need to be talking to I think the other thing that's really important is that people need to get behind the DEI director your senior leadership needs to be behind that DEI director and supporting that director in this work because it's just like you said manual you're eating breathing and sleeping this and you need to make you need to know that that senior leadership is behind you because this is this is all new this is all new so people say they want it when it's over here but and when they feel like you're taking away their power and their privilege oh wait wait a minute you're doing too much now you need to calm down and I always say to people are you all really ready to do this work are you really committed to do this work because we're gonna earn some things that is not gonna be pleasant and so I'm thankful that you said that that person that person coming in it's very important to support that person and to check on that person not once a month check on that person at least once a week or every other day and say and just say Kathy how are you doing you know and back to what you were saying about people you know your senior leadership and others who like well you're moving to share with them the emails and the phone calls and the texts that you're getting from parents and children and educators about the experience that they're having every day in our districts where they feel marginalized mineralized it just really not even considered when people make statements or or or issue directions instructions or whatever and people feel left out of it and they come to you what am I supposed to tell them well you know they're not ready yet yeah can I add one other thing to that which is the added layer and this is a challenge and also kind of builds off of the make sure you check on your people and find your people we are all people of color sitting up here and one thing that you know we've all had many other roles in schools this is the first role that I've had I've been a teacher I've been a great team leader I've been a coach I've been a principal this is the first time where my identity is completely looped into all that I'm doing so while I tend to I think I think you have to be able to do this well to do the job I tend to be able to hold things object and not be subject to them and so when I hear a comment that might be a little bit racist you know I'm able to hold it I'm able to talk to I'm able to you know and but there are those moments when we talk about black boys that I'm thinking about my two little black sons you know there are those moments in a way that you know that you know some something will come out that really can be triggering and it is unique to our role in that you know if I were thinking I mean although if I were thinking about curriculum I'd still be thinking about this but let's just say for example if I were solely thinking about curriculum for example I may not always be implicate I'm always thinking about oppression in a way that my identity may be wrapped up in you know for example so I think you know I share that to say like finding your people is so important finding the people that are going to be your lifelines is so important both within and outside of your district as we've kind of found each other because it is it is really hard to always kind of hold hold those things object because it's hard work and sometimes it's like when you said that you know I actually felt myself feeling a little triggered but you know we have to the work the work continues it does it does I it's saying all of this what is like a phrase a word that you stand on when those challenging times come like what what do you remind yourself of that tells you you know I'm gonna get back up and do this I think for me I had heard this over it was like a virtual training over the summer and I've been using it and I can't even credit where I heard it from but it really is when when it's challenging or you're getting pushed back from a community member saying that's too hard or we need to slow it down or we need to focus on this my pushback is then who's being centered because if we say we're committed to being in the anti-racist community that this is action this is actionable it's not just a philosophy and if we say we're about it then we really have to commit to this idea of equity in this idea that all students are deserving of you know emotional safety in their learning environment of a space where they feel like they are welcomed and that they belong a space where they have dignity so I think one of the things I always put it back on like if you believe that all students it seems that you're prioritizing a subset of students and not really considering through the equity ones but the other is who's being centered so when I get resistance from educators saying like it's too hard to D level a classroom well too hard for who are you centering kind of you and having to and I recognize that that is a shift that's undoing policy and practice that we've all been accustomed to but it sounds like we're centering kind of like your needs here and not the needs of equitable kind of access for all students when parents say well I don't want this book in my child's classroom because my child well who's being centered your child who has been consistently centered as a member of like the dominant you know culture in our society well we're going to de-centered dominance and we're going to look at equitable access and opportunities for all students so a lot of these challenges that come that are about we don't have time or we need to slow down or this is too hard or I don't I'm all about everyone having this as long as my child still has access to you know everything that I've been able to resource and provide them well then you're centering your path and you're not really about equity so I think that that always that default in my thinking when I'm challenged that I put it out there well let's think about this because that actually doesn't benefit all students that benefits kind of your purpose or your child or your instruction or you know your safety your comfort right that's one that we always hear about comfort for everyone and we're creating spaces of comfort while I walk as a black woman in spaces all day every day where I have to adjust my level of comfort because these spaces aren't meant for me and they're not inclusive for me so if we're going to de-center this dominance means that there are going to be moments where your comfort is not the priority in the space so I think for me it's that question like well who are we centering in this conversation in this pushback is it in the name of equity or is in the name of self-preservation of what's comfortable and what's been a privilege I wish I could be as profound as that is. Mine was is simply this been here before we got this you know I won't even go I tell you when I started my career in medical but I can remember having conversations there that you know some 20 years later I'm in Taunton and having the same conversations and then next year I know I'm coming to Cambridge where I'm thinking I'll never have these conversations in Cambridge having the same conversations and so and they used to shake me as a young man you might not remember I used to have a little temper. Particularly in me being the only black man in many of the districts not just schools but districts I worked in every once in a while I just got angry one out of frustration and two I'm here you know but as time is going on I've noticed where that has not been as helpful for me and I've had to be a little more flexible and nimble and I don't get upset anymore when people come to me with stuff that just seems so bizarre and so really not only inequitable but unethical and I'll just be looking I've been here before we got this you know learn from what I what I did before yeah there's a there's a couple of things that I tell myself when I think about work being really challenging I always think to myself anything worth having is worth working hard for so I always know like if it's worth it it's gonna you know it's gonna be hard work but if anything worth having is worth working hard for and that is something I always kind of repeat to myself I also have my own sayings for myself like she is clothed in strength and dignity like a psalm you know I take you know my scriptures and you know I'm a woman of faith and so when I think about things like that I'm like anything that I'm gonna do when it gets challenging when people are starting to push back if somebody speaks to me in a way that I do not deserve to be spoken to which is few and far between but when it happens you know it happens and I think any leader kind of experiences that it's certainly people of color women leaders and so I have to remind myself like who I am that I am the person for the role and that I am a strong and dignified person like in you know and in carrying myself and so I have those things like that written on my whiteboard right on my desk and those are the things that remind me to persevere when it gets tough yeah my girlfriend gave me a frame that had the word joy in the definition and she was like I need you to sit this on your desk because she knows that doing this work does bring me joy because I want to elevate students voices I mean that is the goal for me is that when I walk into a room I it's always who's not in the room and that now that I have a seat and you know Michelle Obama says don't wait don't waste your seat at the table I always think of that that I cannot waste my seat at the table and there are times that I have lost my voice because of being the only one and doing that street calculus of what are the mitigating factors that want that I should talk and what are the risk factors if I do talk right and so those are the two things that I always think about and so Michelle Obama when she says don't waste your seat at the table I always say Margaret don't waste your seat here because yours you're supposed to be here for this time and so let's let's do what you're supposed to do for this time right so I like what everybody said is I feel like we need to ask the the group the dad group like what is the mantra and we need to kind of put that together I'm just gonna be you know yeah full of joy yes and because this is it's good work that way and my last question was what podcast or but however I want to I want to shift it a little bit because I want to know what song really what song is really feeding your so I kind of wait until I get out of the driveway of the high school you know down the street and start blessing what's that song that you're like yes well the book I had but I go with the song real quick there's one song that I really like when I want to get uplifted and I don't really know if this is the name of it but it's it's it's a few years old it's young brothers singing in the style of we are the world and it's called you will know I think and it's all these you know all the some of them have passed Leverett and in others but we're talking 90s maybe early 2000s New Jack that and it's just a collection of brothers must be about 30 or 40 of them singing in an auditorium and it's to when I was a young boy in talks about I had visions and dreams in telling the song talks about don't give up on your visions and dreams so I love that song and I loved it so much that when I was a principal my music director had the students sing it one day at an assembly as a surprise for me it was beautiful but I'm still gonna take my book go ahead I am rereading a book that I read a read maybe 15 years ago by James Baldwin it's a collection of his essays it's called the price of a ticket and I have the book and my daughter works for be compressed and they just published the book again so reminded me of the book so I just I actually bought the audiobook version so I've been listening to it as I drive to and from work when I drive anywhere in fact it's it's like 33 hours long so but it's just James Baldwin I think was just he demand his vision in his his understanding there's his his his piece a talk to teachers which I think is in this book I'm not sure but a talk to teachers in Jessica I was teaching a class at UMass Dartmouth graduate students and I gave them that assignment and their analysis of it and critique reflection was due literally which I did not know on the day like I think it was like 30 years after it was written oh wow wow okay but that that right there you're right bring it out every year share it with everybody I don't know if there's a particular song I think I'm just really drawn in literature and music I'm really drawn to like strong black women and black feminists so you know when I want to get hype anytime I hear who run the world by Beyonce like I get hype right no matter where I am that song just feeds me but I love music by by strong black women who are just out there being authentic to who they are so I get really hype and excited when I hear these really powerful voices or these lyrics from these women who are just owning you know their blackness and their strength and how they show up so I don't know if there's a specific song but that music I'm just really drawn to when I think about books also in literature I might the first book that changed my life was the autobiography of a son of Shakur and I'm always drawn to books by black feminists and Brittany Cooper and Nicole Hannah Jones 1619 project I just revisited all about love by Bell Hooks following her passing which you know is still really grounding in the why's we do this work and how do we do this with compassion and I also I'm gonna begin I'm waiting for it to arrive reread the autobiography of Angela Davis it came out on her birthday in the University with a new introduction so I think it is really important to go back and reread these things with the new lens right having a different understanding of life years later and going back and reconnecting to the things that like set my soul into this work so we had to read Bell Hooks in my doctoral program it's like it's forever yeah Jessica yeah I mean all of these things that ballroom piece I'm I'm actually probably gonna go back and read it you know tonight or tomorrow that is excellent okay so for music I immediately went to Beyonce there's I recently I just this past weekend did a long road trip and I was listening to both salon just seat at the table which you know might as well since we're talking about that is just you know it was one of those albums that you can just listen to every song so that and then Beyonce's you know the soundtrack she made for the new Lion King movie some of those songs are very powerful like there's one called power you'll know the chorus is like you'll never take my power and anyway I think that and there's another one called find your way back and so it's kind of talking about and I hope I'm I hope I'm saying this right because I need to go back and think critically of the lyrics but this is just off the top of my head so I think it's about you know the messages that the world tells you who you are find your way back to who you really are and it is just a great song so maybe we'll add that to our playlist you know at the start of at the start of our next place yeah and I kind of want to go back and think through closer my book list because these books were all really powerful I was just thinking about you know we I recently read you know my grandmother's hands which was great it was it was really good and and there are questions there are also parts where I'm like hmm interesting I don't know if I fully agree but I think a book is a good book when I continue to think about it and even you know so for everyone listening that the book is about generational what happens when you pass down trauma from generation to generation in the way in which it lives in our bodies and so I and it shares practices like humming like rocking like tapping and I've done them myself I also did them with my son's like I have little babies sometimes when they're really overwhelmed I'm humming and tapping and it works and so it's just really so I guess that's that's the text that I that I have in my mind most recently but hmm I'm inspired because I need to go back and get something even even even meteor so and I know from me the song that like really gets me that resonates with me and gets me hives is Alicia Keys girls on fire because there are times I need to play that for myself and and anything Kurt Franklin for me is something that helps me also as for my reading right now is doctoral like I'm reading articles right and so it's like it's interesting because my superintendent is reading I think it's called sweetgrass might be getting the title wrong and she's like I need you to read this book and I'm like yeah when am I gonna find time kind of thing so I'm waiting for this summer I have Apollo books that I'm really waiting to dig in and then you all just given some other titles that I'm like yeah I want to go and we like James Baldwin and we read some things I feel like we need to put a like book list together for our group yeah cuz that was just like just asking you all that I'm like oh what I wonder what else our group is really reading and what songs they're listening to also thank you so so much for you all taking the time out of your busy schedule to be here I'm so thankful that it works I know everybody's schedule is really I know when I look at my calendar is just like somebody's like can you meet and you're like oh yeah in two weeks so I'm hoping that maybe we can do this again maybe bring a couple more of our peers in and really talk about really go even deeper into the conversation of the DI and what does that mean for our departments so again thank you for being with us I'm glad that you can join us with conversations with Margo Cledo Thomas we hope to see you again