 Good evening everyone I'm going to call this meeting to order of the city of Montpelier development review board my name is Daniel Richardson I serve as chair and the other members from my right are Rob Goodwin Kevillow Connell Deb Marklitz Meredith Crandall staff Tom Kester Ryan Kane Clay Rock all right the first item of business is the approval of the agenda you've had an opportunity to review it I don't know if anyone has any amendments or wishes to make a motion to approve the agenda is printed Mr. Chair I make a motion to approve the agenda for this evening's meeting okay motion by Kevin to have a second second second by Rob all those in favor of approving the agenda as printed please raise your right hand we have an agenda there are no comments from the chair this evening other than I will address the process for the last item that we have which is a hundred State Street which is a sketch plan review this evening which comes with its own particular set of procedure and I'll explain because I presume people are either a number of people I think are here for that application and a number may be arriving after that but let's let's move forward the first item is approval of the minutes there's a September 4th I was there Kevin Kate is not present but Deb Tom and Rob so we have a quorum does anybody have a motion for the September 4th minutes a motion to approve the set minutes from to September 4th okay motion by Rob to have a second second by Tom any further discussion hearing none all those in favor who are eligible to vote on the September 4th minutes please raise your right hand and we have September 4th minutes approved the September 17th minutes cannot be approved because we lack a quorum to do so so we will put those off to the next meeting that brings us to the first item of business for this evening which is to moonlight terrorist terrorists the owner applicant is Stephen Kirby and Kathleen new brow please please come forward to the table so what oh you have some landscape drawings okay why don't you just go ahead and distribute those and then we'll have you introduce yourself and put you under oaths okay if you'll just state your name for the record statement names for the record Steve Kirby okay if you'll raise your right hand do you solemnly swear affirm that testimony you're about to give for the matter under consideration shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury so why don't you just give us a brief description of what you're seeking and then I'll have Meredith give a further description and will start with the questions okay yeah we're buying a property at two moon like terrace and we're hoping to get approval to convert the existing office space on the first floor to two apartments there's an existing apartment already on the second floor so we'd like to remodel a little bit and put in some firewalls and so forth and get approval for that for that use okay we've talked with Chris Boyd just a lot of extent had a visit the site know what have a pretty good feel for what he wants to see done to make that happen okay so this is just a conversion from an office to two one bedroom apartments right and then are there I know that part of the application is changing the parking area apart from that however are there any other proposed changes to the exterior of the building I understand obviously interior you may be doing some changes but we're on the DRB we're concerned primarily with the external yeah well since you brought that up I meant to mention it is that I we've decided to decline the request to move the parking area in any way and change it anyway we're gonna leave it as is more involved than we guessed yeah yeah yeah these these bylaws can have those surprises and so so there's no request to change the parking area it's just strictly a change of use that's correct nothing about the external is going to change entrances exits pedestrian circulation well entrances yes we would like to put in a new entrance as the drawing shows okay on the north side of the building so and that will allow each apartment to have their own means of egress without sharing that means with any other tenants so when you've converted everything it'll be just a residential that's why no more that's right yeah Meredith it might have be helpful I know the staff had written up a number of reports about the setbacks with the parking but given the applicants shift in position to keep the parking area as is could you highlight what issues you believe are still relevant for us to discuss yep give me one second to make sure I've checked everything off it does no longer pertains so we still need to deal with landscaping and then other than that it would be if you felt like asking about it and you don't have to you can ask about bicycle access and storage under section 3202 on page 9 and then it's really just landscaping I mean the main reason that this application is here is because it's conditional use to go strictly residential and then the you know if the landscaping landscaping exemptions waivers things that I can approve thank you so let's dive in to the landscaping question I know you circulate if you could explain what's on the landscaping proposal and what you're proposing yeah it's pretty well populated already with trees certainly a lot of mature trees and many many saplings which are pretty much outlined the perimeter of the property there's shrubs as well they're kind of mixed within the saplings on the edges of the trees around the perimeter on the exception of the hydrangeas that are near the entrance of apartment 2 and some lilacs and honeysuckles on the north side or excuse me on the south side of building there's there's quite a bit they are now there was I think it's densely vegetated yeah so are you proposing any new landscaping let me start there I'm not proposing any unless the board feels that it's necessary we would comply well I'm noting so just under 3203 g talks about the standards for landscaping and it's the every five feet of building perimeter that requires one shrub and for every 30 feet of exterior perimeter one tree but you have the opportunity to count your existing trees so according to staff's calculation and unless you have a reason to dispute this and say no it's a much smaller building the staff has calculated this roughly 172 feet of principal building exterior when they measure all around which translates out to about 34 shrubs and five trees so I think based on this and the drawing you gave us shows in green the existing trees that's right and shrubs sorry that's okay and you have a count so you're you have approximately 25 to 30 trees and 20 to 25 shrubs yes so the proposal would be that if you add them up so if you have you know just taking your low numbers 25 trees and 20 shrubs that's 45 that's still roughly about 6 more than you're required to if you count if you add up the trees and shrubs you're just more evenly divided between trees and shrubs then subsection g would require you is that correct yeah I think there's a lot of saplings as well that I didn't even include because well this must be 30 to 50 saplings you know trees of 10 15 height that are scattered all throughout but yes yeah right any questions from the board about the trees I think that's pretty pretty adequate testimony let's ask about the the bicycle storage is there any we simply ask you and not we're it's not a requirement but are there any bicycle storage areas or opportunities if tenants have bikes if they commute by bike to store there's a lot of trees to there's no formal bike racks if that would you're asking well or or even are they storm in their apartments or are there room in the apartments to do so um yeah well I think certainly an apartment two at the bottom of the stairs is plenty of room okay apartment one also has a modern I'm sorry apartment three our proposed for apartment three has a mudroom entrance there and that has room for a bicycle there and the only question would might be apartment two where there might be less room for bikes stored inside but it's a you know fairly 900 square foot apartment so right tenants get creative they'll find a place if they want to but there's no garage or shed for well not for their use there is a garage but the fire marshal has advised us to not allow access because sheet rocked properly so right so for now we won't allow access to the garage well and we're not gonna okay um and there's no plans to put in a bike rack or and well let me ask this if if a tenant asked for one would you be amenable to such a thing yeah I guess I mean where does one get a bike rack I don't know any other questions on bike racks all right we do have to take affirmative evidence on the conditional use standards and this is more along the lines because there's two types of allowable use there's permitted uses which are just simply uses that are allowed without question and then there are conditional uses in which we have to make examination to make sure the use you're proposing is not inconsistent with the area so one the first one talks about the capacity of community facilities and utilities and says the applicant shall demonstrate that the proposed development shall not cause a disproportionate or unreasonable burden on the city's ability to provide community facilities and utilities including local schools police fire protection and ambulance service street infrastructure maintenance parks and recreation facilities water supply sewage disposal and storm water systems infrastructure so this is an existing building it already is occupied during the day as an office use you're simply looking to convert it to residential use not changing the footprint you'll be adding sinks is that correct not technically okay it was a doctor's office so there's a lot of sinks already there's three total now and there will be three when we're done is this on city sewer and water yes yeah and so you've already spoken with the department of public works about changing yeah an indirect connection and having an engineer make sure it's you know we fit the engineering sure yeah that would be in process if we're approved and so there are two one bedroom apartments as well in here so we're not talking about a huge number of tenants coming into the the site either at most two occupants of one bedroom apartments whether that's a small family or a single person yeah so i i think the evidence is that there's no impact on the schools you're not changing the driveway and have you talked to the department of public works as far as the width of the driveway is it sufficient for ambulance and police to enter no we're assuming since there is an existing okay the apartment already that it's in compliance yeah yeah okay and be also because they're not making any changes as it is and with that much room to turn around in department of public works didn't have any concerns about that issue no impact on street or infrastructure because there's no changes being proposed maybe someone who lives there will use our parks and recreation facilities which is a good thing and we've already talked about water so the next section talks about traffic the applicant shall demonstrate the proposed development will not have an undue adverse upon traffic in the area including volume type and timing traffic generated by the proposed development shall not and reasonably and disproportionately contribute to reduced level of service for affected streets that the reasonable measures have been taken to minimize or mitigate the amount of vehicular traffic generated by proposed development um so your testimony was that the apartments two and three what are going to become apartments two and three were a doctor's office saw regular visits during the day multiple trips and this would reduce down to essentially two residential units seems seems that way okay logical hearing no further questions on traffic um i think that the evidence shows that it's likely to have no impact too very little impact um the character of the neighborhood standards the applicant shall demonstrate the proposed development shall not have an undue adverse effect upon the character of the neighborhood so in this um if you could just describe this parcel sits along river street in 302 are there other residential uses in the immediate area on moonlight terrors yeah is all residential yeah okay um i know 302 itself is more of a commercial corridor but along moonlight terrors there are other residential properties and moonlight terrors the property in the building set back quite a ways from river street so it really feels like part of that residential neighborhood already rather than the commercial part does this property sit up on a hill okay so it's it's lifted literally up off of river street yeah right okay doesn't have a line of sight even to river street really the next one is yards lot coverage and landscaping new development shall maintain a sense of open space is appropriate to the neighborhood by balancing the size of the building footprint um with the mass and structure and size a lot this isn't applicable because you're not proposing any changes the exterior the last one is performance standards yes that would go underneath is there like an existing exterior stairwell yeah that's right there will be a new entrance on the exterior of the building yes there'll be no lighting for that oh they'll be lighting their will because it's required by the national electrical code oh okay yep any further questions on the exterior hearing none so we have the yard lot coverage and landscaping new development shall maintain i'm sorry we're down to performance standards um the board may impose conditions deemed necessary to further the purpose of chapter 330 including performance standards um on uh the project whether the project is expected to contribute any of the following to the neighborhood noise glare odors vibration electrical or radio interference waste storage needs particulate matter or airborne solids or flammable toxic or hazardous substances or waste are any of these things likely to be triggered by your change of views we would work hard to avoid those it might be something good to put in the lease actually those are always good terms to put in the lease no no toxic substance don't bring them but apart from that i think the evidence is pretty clear that this is um of residential use will there be a plan for regular trash pickup provided by you the landlord as opposed to the tenant or yes that's how it's currently operating so we'll just continue that service okay um again the evidence is that this isn't a residential neighborhood and this is consistent with that uh none of these uses seem to be i mean you can have noisy tenants but the use in and of itself is not generating unusual amounts of noise um so given that what's the pleasure of the board is there any more questions about the application um or oh yes claire i had a similar question you mentioned so will you need a border wastewater amendment for the city we will need to have an engineer certified that the building supply lines supply lines are adequate and so forth but the system that Montpelier has and once that's submitted i think that's how that works by the engineer the city will review that and be listed that for many uh for a indirect connection if that's suitable for they see but it has to be an engineer that sends the letter to my understanding and we'll move forward with that right away any further questions from the board if not i'll entertain a motion um to uh to approve um the conditional use and is there still a minor site plan change or is that now no longer part of this um it's it's still part of the site plan is still part of it um so minor site plan and conditional use okay um with the friendly amendment with the modification of the applicants to remove the change of use part a change of parking area yes thank you motion by deb do i have a second second second by kevin any further discussion hearing none all those in favor of the motion as proposed please raise your hand congratulations you have your permit um it will issue well it will we used to say we used to say that all the time it will issue i like to use that it it it will issue by paper with usually we're pretty good within a week or two weeks of this meeting you'll have a written decision but you have our vote know that it's forthcoming with the findings that we've made okay and there's a window for appeal right 30 days from issuance of the decision yeah and that'll be all explained in the packet that gets sent to you along with the z notice that you'll need to post on the property if there wasn't appeal just curious if there wasn't appeal the appellant how would they bring their case forward i mean and how would they but they have to file their notice with a reason but what the reasons have to be for it being denied and that sort of thing well i mean there's a number this is gets into a legal question um but generally what happens is and if somebody chooses to appeal they file a notice of appeal either with the city and or with the environmental court you have to go in front of the environmental court and say why you're appealing and that process works out strictly in front of the environmental court okay and so you know there's limited not everyone can appeal a decision it's they have to be an interested party and that's defined by the statute and that has some particular requirements to it okay i think it's a sign that no one is here wishing to speak about this application clearly isn't the most controversial thing right that's happened this month yeah it is a legal requirement that somebody who wants wishes to appeal have participated before uh this board as well oh that's good yeah so great good yeah well good luck thanks much appreciate it thank you uh moving along our next application is 47 court street if you would state your name for the record please uh yanna walder okay and uh are you're appearing behalf of uh capital city partners okay so if you raise your right hand we'll swear you in you solemnly swear affirm that the evidence testimony you're about to give for the matter under consideration shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth under a pains and penalties perjury yeah um please give us an introduction as to your application um so we are looking to replace the existing jersey barriers in the parking lot with just a more decorative stone wall pretty easy that's it no change in uh slope or anything it's just a simple switch it out yes um where are the jersey barriers located there's a picture i mean i see two of them in the picture two um yep there's three okay so so three jersey barriers along is this the the back side of the building yes and and if i look to the left where the uh looks like the crv is parked on this picture um so we're not touching you're not touching those big blocks so meredith is this technically a steep slope behind these this does not look like um if you take a look at a couple of so if you i mean one if you look at what yana just recently handed out um this is off of the steep slope map it's a steep slope slope overlay um and so it's i mean technically where they are is the slope um and you know there's there's and that's one of the steepest parts of the slope there's going to be some impact on that slope yeah but if i'm looking if i'm looking here in this picture it looks like it was taken in winter without the leaves on the trees i mean that does not look like if you look well i know but i i'm just looking at the slope behind it i mean obviously the the wall itself um um has a vertical uh very steep slope but the the slope it's supporting or that it's it's holding up i just want to be clear it's not steep under our definition so at least it's not a greater than the 30 percent i mean even i think that's right okay it's just one of those if you take a look at the thing is i don't think the jersey barrier is this whole aspect here and that's what reads as a steep slope on there it's not like we have a full engineering report on this because it seemed a bit excessive sure to get a full engineering report on replacing those jersey barriers because i agree part of part of what reads as the slope is the actual jersey barriers themselves right and which is the steepest part right there and maybe i'm odd i'm simply trying to for i think for purpose of just trying to understand and narrow what we have to do if we're really just talking about the steep slope as created by the jersey barrier in and of itself i think that's a different task for us to tackle agreed then the the slope behind it um and this is this is really the key issue for our review right this three yeah so no the key issue is this is the slopes that's why this is here um because unfortunately technically it reads as a steep slope so this is the issue but not the actual correct it's it's where my my ability as zoning administrator to you know use judgment is reigned in i'm i'm interested in um the the letter that we received that relates to this a little bit where the neighbor indicates that she's really thinks it'll be an improvement to have but have some requested that we think about the grade um and i believe that neighbor is here today mr bluin if when you're ready to to enter into that part of public testimony okay that's great we can wait there and so i'm interested in knowing um i don't understand enough about the virus if we have the flexibility to do so um to say that again it's it's uh i'm not clear if we have flexibility to do what's being asked even uh by the neighbor and so i'd love some advice on that well when the time comes in the yep discussion well for the scope here because at this point the entire application has to come before the development review board yes um everything within the minor site plan review process is open yeah is open for you to look at i have pointed out you know in the staff report where and how i think this all complies and i think in you know you can all read that and take new evidence here correct and that's your read as well yeah we can't we can't take evidence as well as uh and you know what i was really aiming to get the board to to focus on is that you know if if there seems to be a couple parts to this application one is that they're not they're proposing in the nature of the application not to change the existing slope behind the wall that it stays the same so do we have to make a representation a condition that gets into our discretion um in general you don't have to because that's the scope of the application and you know it's like saying somebody wants to build a dunk and donuts and you say okay but don't don't process the bestis in that dunk and donuts and they say we're not asking to do that and you don't have to make that condition it's just inherent in the application itself um at the same time if there is concern i think given the steep slope you know even to the extent that this is not a greater than 30 steep slope it's a lesser than and we can have that requirement for the purposes of erosion now mr blauans interest in preserving the slope may be different as far as the way water runs off of his property and those private rights to have water flow off the property in a certain way that's not necessarily in our our jurisdiction um here but we can certainly to the extent that we have any concerns or receive testimony on erosion issues which is ultimately what the steep slope provisions are intended to protect um we can make conditions off of that if that's helpful um so i think as a preliminary question for the board is um is one of you know do we determine that and if we look at section 3007 uh of what a steep slope is does that necessarily include a retaining wall which is always going to be greater than 30 percent because walls tend to be vertical um or is that something where we would determine it not to be and if it is to be determined to be a steep slope and covered by 3007 is this something where the board feels there's more testimony needed as to what's being proposed i mean i think it's a very straightforward application yes mr chair i i think the board has a opportunity here to show some common sense with regards to the uh the new zoning regulations we are simply swapping out one material for a new material and as long as we make sure that the engineering components are compliant with good engineering practices i think i would steer clear of of getting into the slope issue at all i think it's an engineering issue and i think we should be attentive to that but as far as trying to parse i mean it's just the thought of taking every every retaining wall we have in town and saying oh my gosh you're all over 30 percent and that every time you make an improvement or a repair you'd have to go jump through those kinds of hoops i i just uh i'd like to evaluate on the merits not on something fictional rob i just have one question to i think comes to the same conclusion and that is the elevation of the top of that wall going to be the same when it's when the new construction is completed as it currently exists so i think it'll be three feet tall because i think the blocks are foot high so it's half a foot taller but we are flexible so there will be a reduction in i think i have a foot taller right now it's 2.5 feet tall you answer my question and okay yeah so the the slope behind it will actually be less of a uh it'll be less of a slope it'll be closer to even because you're you're raising the bottom a little bit what's the what's the pleasure of the rest of the board i think there's yes claire i had a question you're just talking about replacing these one two three four correct and then is is this the neighboring that's my problem right here so your concern would be if they did something here or come off here come over into we'll give mr. bowen an opportunity i know he'll he'll want to testify but i want to touch upon this threshold question because i think it shapes our questions for mr. bowen or for the applicant as well as their testimony you know if we're looking at it as a steep slope i i tend to agree with both kevin and rob that you know if i don't think the intent of this while it doesn't necessarily define slopes um in there there's an indication by the language used that this is really talking about naturally occurring slopes or man made material slopes that are not the retaining walls because that's inherent within retaining wall is that it's always going to be greater than 30 percent and the whole purpose of retaining wall you know you need to be able to maintain it i mean if this jersey jersey barrier if it wasn't an aesthetic issue but it was some structural issue where it was undermining the idea that the bylaws wouldn't allow you to repair that because clearly at some point it was necessary to hold this back i don't think would would not come would be an irrational application of the rules that makes sense okay good with that so mr. bowen i think if you wish to testify or have anything you wish to offer please the microphone right there is and just introduce yourself for the record thank you my name is jim blue and i'm the owner of 45 port street um and i met with yonah at the site and we discussed my concerns which are degraded um there is very little property to speak of between our two properties um the stones that you'll see that are placed on the grass which is part of my property have been put there to prevent plowing from that property ending up in our walkway down below the column that you see on the back side of the house was taken out by a plow individual several years back um probably the most important aspect of this testimony is that that fourth barrier goes beyond the grass that's my property now i think this is we've talked about this i think it's wonderful they want to replace a jersey barrier but i'm petrified because i know that yonah is not going to be driving that excavator okay somebody gets in there and stuff changes really quickly and then it's done if they can pull that barrier and put those new blocks on that existing grave because i would bring you to another picture it looks like this it shows you that this grade from this point to this point is quite steep so i'm all ears about how high this is going to be but it really needs to be stipulated that it comes off this grade not this grade and if it does i'm okay with that as long as there is a flat flush face that cuts back into their space so anything that they plow or any rain that comes down continues to move in the direction it's moving for years okay that's all and i just i want to go down the same that as long as they put that replacement wall exactly where that one is and don't touch any of the dirt to the right i'm in favor of their proposal okay but i'm petrified i have to say that the previous owners of this building said the same thing those block walls that you were looking at you didn't want her to move they moved them no permission it was a field stone wall so i get a little nervous and now i show i'm glad that she showed us we've had a great conversation but i want everybody in so if that wall drops 18 inches and then is 26 or 25 inches up and it dropped the grade dropped with it and the water is going to move i only know that because i've been there for 33 years thank you for your time i appreciate their efforts thank you miss walters i think there's two questions that are raised um by mr uh and is it bluen bluen bluen bluen's testimony uh one is if you look at the picture that looks like there's a little bit of a rise to the actual bottom of the jersey barrier from the pavement um so is the retaining wall proposed to go in at the pavement level or at that slight rise um so we haven't actually gotten that far but there's if you i mean do you really think that it rises that much i was just there measuring the wall and it really doesn't rise that much i mean it looks like it because the jersey barrier has um like the widening at the bottom so in the picture it looks like there's a you know like a rise that goes like this but it's pretty flat you think it's about 18 inches to the bottom of the jersey barrier i i mean i don't think so to the bottom of the jersey barrier i mean it's covered in dirt because they're plowing and they push the dirt onto it so it looks like a grade but i really don't think it's that high of the i was there when they built that was reason why they did that so that the plows wouldn't hit they would have that dirt for the blades to rise up strike the barriers and they would know that they were at the end of what they could push to um so Bill Kehoe owned the building he was the principal of uh associated general contractors i think it was DuVois and King that did this work um and again sorry we just want to make sure it's on the record if you're talking that's all so there's no plan to drop at 18 inches okay so so essentially you're talking about replacing it at the existing level yes um and then um on the i think one of the concerns um thank you on um i think on this picture which looks like it was taken from underneath the deck uh walkway area you know the jersey barrier as as jersey barriers are designed just simply ends and um is is there going to be an end piece on on the wall that you're proposing no basically just just an end of a stone block okay and is it going to extend past where the existing jersey barrier is no and we're very flexible we can even shorten the wall it's it's not we're just going to die into the hill just like it does now so i think the concern is what the water is going to end up over here by the stairs i'll try to speak loudly with this picture my honest concern is that an excavation blade goes here and goes down three and a half four feet to remove this barrier my property has been violated i don't want that to happen that barrier can be pulled and these blocks can be slid in and built up on top can die right into the exact space it is now i'm not complaining about it went over that was agreed two years ago but it's just that this is how tight it is okay well i think i i think that's really a certainly you're expressing a private property interest that you're not giving permission for them to build on to your property or to dig on to your property and so that's less of our our jurisdiction as a zoning board you know we can approve this wall and we can certainly as i understand the representations are from the applicant is that she's not seeking to expand the wall or proposing it tonight now whether the excavators come and dig into your property and effectively trespass that's a little bit beyond the zoning and that's more in the private private property rights that you have because you're saying very clearly to the applicant i don't give you permission and i presume you're not going to change your mind um and so but that's not necessarily what we can put on as as far as requirements for zoning i mean that's why i asked you to address the grave because i thought that that was in your purview well and it's just nobody what my concern was was when an email came back and said we don't plan to do this the word i don't plan to do things doesn't hold so much water with me anymore again she won't be the one running the excavator i know what the plan is but i've had plans before they don't always go the way we wanted them to i want to be very clear that i came i aired my concerns and if the excavator does get a little aggressive to all that it sounds to me that how for me well i i believe don't you know it doesn't your permit i only know because the deck that you walk in under i was forced to reduce by eight feet on both sides at another time by this board eight feet i had to take about eighteen thousand dollars because it exceeded the original plan so i think you've got teeth to say as long as it's done exactly the way we say we agree and if it doesn't happen the way we do i have a report or i mean i'm happy to build you know find out where the property line actually is and just build it up to it or not even touching the property line i don't need to go like all the way okay absolutely well i would say it's a practical matter if we approve the plan as she's proposed it and then she does something different on the property then it's a violation and you could bring a complaint so you would have recourse and then as the chair described you also have private recourse so a permit will be based on on her application and and if she doesn't build it in accordance with that application our and our approval then it's an enforcement matter if you can enforce that well there's absolutely there's a procedure for enforcement we don't you know there's a in the zoning administrator there in the zoning office there's an enforcement mechanism but then you also have the ability to end to have a private to to have a civil case as well scared i don't think i want to do it now so any clear is was a site plan submitted one that's been based on a survey or shows where the private property line is no i mean even when we bought the property there was no survey or property lines or anything because i guess i have a little bit of a concern say well where where is the property line and and so then having that clear understanding of where that is just so that i think there's probably somewhere measurements like from the corner of the building to the property line i'm sure that somewhere it's noted on the records you'll find or be on the right hand side of your driveway and then up in the corner of my capital apartments okay i i think this is where i think we have to be careful which is um you know we're not here to adjudicate where the boundaries are we're not situated for that um and we have to you know we're asked to approve or not approve as far as the zoning bylaws go um the application as proposed um obviously if she you know if we would approve a permit that um involved going on to somebody's property that you know think of it uh i think the concerns that have been expressed are okay you approve this wall but what happens if the excavator goes a little bit to the right my point was simply um you know that's certainly a private property right about trespass but we're not here to you know adjudicate where if where the boundary lines are we're just we're just asking you to do that i'm asking you to maintain the parade that exists there today and i think that's what the applicant staff has presented and and that's what we're seeking to approve as a permit and i'm just clarifying for the purposes of both you and for the other members of the board so uh any other questions hearing none anybody have uh an emotion or um as much as i don't want to there was a question about the landscaping i think oh and then this additional information was provided with uh some hexes and uh i marked on the shrubs yeah shrubs and trees do you have a just uh an estimate of how many shrubs and or trees exist on the property currently so uh 16 shrubs about and i want to say four to seven trees they're all kind of growing together in one spot are there any locations on the property that you think would be suitable for additional plantings that would uh provide uh shading for walkways visual screening for the property or any of the other criteria that are listed in the landscaping section i think um just right up at the top of the property by sort of towards the apartments right along that road we could plant some things definitely there's no plan for it but we could that was not in there we'd be disturbing the grave yeah well but there's other plantings in that general vicinity currently uh yep so all the things are marked on the map all the shrubs you're saying there you hypothetically could plant additional trees and shrubs in amongst those existing trees and shrubs if you needed to but yeah probably just up up towards the back of the property where do you currently have your snow storage for the winter i'll be actually paid to remove it so it's it's they'll come in in plow and then remove it the same time every couple weeks yeah okay during the interim does it stored somewhere uh yep just we push it against the jersey barriers okay yana just to check in one thing um for the front yard area how is that impacted in the winter by the city plows with the city streets and you know greenwood i think that's greenwood terraced in the sidewalk plows there's a considerable amount of snow all around the front and the side going towards the apartments in the back because there's a road that goes up along the property line so again if we planted something you know it definitely be lots of snow on it so it seemed to me and with the photos that there's already significant plantings in the back and so it it wouldn't really i would it add to the aesthetics in the shading or would it just be redundant to what's there i don't have a sense from the photos i would have probably a person who knows about plants look at it and plant something that would help with you know water so if would there be space for for two or three or four additional plantings shrubs yes between a tree along that is a terrace tree up there i think right i don't remember what it's called a green wood terrace green wood terrace yeah so along that road there so if we would in our requirement require an additional three to four shrubs oh yeah you feel like there's there's room actual room for it yes and and we'll also make a requirement that any plantings be maintained in a good condition you know and replaced if they die and like that let me ask a question um so there's been no professional erosion control plan developed it's a small project but um and this may go to mr uh luin's concern which is if there was a condition of the permit that um required you to follow the city of Montpeliers erosion control practices in the implementation of of this wall would that be acceptable to the applicant are you familiar with their erosion control practices in the bylaws i'm not what are they so under 3008 d there's about 13 different erosion control practices and they include things such as limiting the site of the construction area to the minimum necessary to accommodate the proposed development preserve significant existing trees within construction area you know a lot of these i think are fairly standard uh requirements um monitor the site to ensure that all sediment and erosion erosion control measures are functioning properly particularly important to check erosion control measures just before and after any significant rainfall um i mean technically these are part of the bylaw regulations but one way in which i think would i might assure the neighbor that the implementation of this followed the application more than simply the representations of this is where we're putting the wall is are these erosion control measures because those seem to really go to the heart of what mr the neighbor is is concerned about and if we adopted them as a specific condition of the of the application i don't see it as necessarily something more than what you already have to comply with but it would be very specific that in lieu of an erosion control plan specific to this area you're agreeing to follow these these standards in your implementation unless this requires some additional construction of i don't know swales or something i mean i if it's like marking the boundaries of limits of construction uh stabilized exposed soil i mean i actually think this wall would be more helpful for water issues it'll have appropriate drainage behind it um i think that it's actually an improvement you know i don't foresee there being more water you know more issues with water after the construction of this wall yeah these only apply to like the construction activities themselves they're essentially best practices so that when people are undertaking construction that uh there are an erosion problems while dirt's being moved around and stuff like that so yeah it's it's still fences and sort of simple common sense things like that right and and limiting the area particularly given the testimony that was given earlier that there's a concern about any any digging beyond the absolute necessary area to slip the jersey barrier in a very tight i mean sorry slip the new retaining wall in where the jersey barrier exists in a very tight area that doesn't disturb other soils yep i understand that that makes sense um any further questions i appreciate taking up the issues that i almost glossed over uh i'll entertain a motion i'll make a motion to approve the application uh z 2018-0108 at 47 court street uh for minor site plan approval as presented by the applicant which specifically is the replacement of these barriers with a new stone retaining wall in the same location as the currently existing barriers under the conditions that the construction activities follow the erosion and prevention sediment control practices set out in section 3008 d of the zoning regulations and with additional condition that four additional shrubs be planted on the property pursuant to section 3203.g of the zoning regulations and that the shrubs be maintained in a healthy condition with dead or dying plants being replaced within one growing season with a comparable plant of the same size requirements motion by ryan second i'll second it second by deb any further discussion hearing none all those in favor of the uh motion as stated please raise your right hand we have uh all opposed two three four five six six to one we have uh you have your application approved we'll issue a written decision uh presumably in the next two weeks thank you next application up is sketch plan review of a two-lot subdivision by the city of montpelier does anybody need to take a break or can we just plow right into it are we ready okay uh just so everyone who's here who's aware um before the uh presenter introduces himself uh this is sketch plan which means it's not evidence under oath this is the first two steps in a subdivision process the purpose of tonight is to really discuss any issues that may arise or that we may see or that we may have further questions about for the subdivision somewhat unique in that our last meeting we also had a sort of preview of the this particular application and did very much the same thing that was more of a general overview this one is going to be a much more focused on the issues raised um by a subdivision application itself so it may not go into the same quite the same areas but it will just look to seek uh clarification on some of our conditions as to why or why not the parcel should be allowed to be subdivided so greg if you'll introduce yourself and take it away thank you my name is greg rabid from rabid architects in south burlington here to present the modifications to the to the montelier city garage i don't know if it's possible to kill the lights again yeah and hopefully everyone won't go to sleep with the lights going off at this late hour um this is a uh this is a version of the uh plat plan overlaid onto an aerial photograph and it picks up on a lot of important things that are going on around this site but uh the proposal before you tonight is an extension of a previous permit and i i'll go through this again for the benefit of folks who weren't on the board then um the capital plaza corporation sought and received approvals for an 84 room hotel which is this building here and at the time was a 220 space parking garage that proposal has been changed now to where the city is going to subdivide off a lot here property line is between the two buildings that roughly half acre lot will uh will be used to construct a 348 space parking garage which you see here now extending down into what is the lands of uh mary haney and if you've walked the site roughly a third of the way down the garage there's a little bit of a drop from the capital plaza parking lot to the uh to the haney parcel this bunch of contours contours here uh represents that obviously another very important feature of this map is the north branch of the wanoski river and uh here's the main channel the wanoski river um this is important for the project in general as i know the city is pursuing plans to develop a park right here to be called confluence park as part of that you can see uh the trailway of the bike path and the proposed bike path bridge here the existing railroad road bridge is here um the structure is a uh is an adaptation of the earlier approved design with some major improvements what you see here is the same view that was presented to the city council on last wednesday night um essentially what is proposed is a four story garage the highest portion of that would be immediately adjacent to the hampton inn um you can see here that on the opposite corners of the building there are also these stair tower extensions but principally the the building line is down here and you can see some of the design themes that are being developed as the plans are are uh improved um the pattern the building facade encompasses both masonry and stone facades alternated with panels of uh of a living uh material grown on a matrix called a green screen or a living wall uh those are sort of brand specific but what it is is it's a type of trellis and what's being proposed is that uh growing from the ground up would be um a mixture of vines and ivies and other climbing plants uh that our landscape architects estimate will uh will grow in over time and fill in after about three years one other uh distinctive feature in the overall scheme of things is the creation of opportunities as indicated here for some significant public art um this happens to be the view of the project uh it's sort of up in the air but um looking from the south and the east towards the capital plaza building to the north and the west and to put it in a uh died sorry i'll have to go back and bring this up okay so this is a new view that in the previous rounds of approval were wouldn't have been available because uh there's this construction fencing indicates previously there was a building in this location that's been torn down but this gives you a view from main street and obviously there's shaws and here's the railroad track so i've got my back sort of uh against the building on the corner there used to be a bank uh you can see here in the distance this is the garage there's one of those pieces of art that i talked about um there's the capital dome to help orient you and then these large masses where my cursor is going uh that's the existing capital plaza and this is the proposed or uh previously approved hampton and i have a different view of that sorry it's it's awkward but everyone can see then just open the same one bear with me here's a view from a little farther back this is actually taken sort of from the edge of the of wnuski river behind that sonoco or shell station so here's the uh the area in here where confluence park would be and you can see again the trestle bridge the railroad bridge and in the background you can see how this this building from that particular vantage point uh sort of fits into the landscape so you've got these the masonry panels alternating with the uh with the green screens and i think i think this is an important image to sort of show you that um uh this thing is not going to uh have a negative or adverse impact on the looks of town from from those key vantage points and here again you can see the relationship between the top of the garage here where that cornice is and the adjacent um hotel which this would be the fourth floor and then up in the roof is the fifth floor so the building is really stops sort of at the fourth floor level of the adjacent garage back for a moment to the site plan um well these are the actual construction drawing elevations they're a little the only uh if they're a little plain to read i think the renderings do a much better job but this this right here in the corner and it can't seem to zoom it but the the elevations that the actual measurements are indicated on the drawings that were included in your pack um um just a note greg that those those aren't in this package they are because this is this just subdivision so the subdivision division isn't really about the height of the new building or anything okay all right i can give you my copy of what's in this actual package if you want um i have i have both of them but i won't dwell on the elevations just trying to get people oriented to the project um so so the uh the board will be asked um at at regular plat hearings uh to to approve this subdivision of land which would cav off about five point point five four acres of land from the capital plaza corporation to the city and then we'll also be looking for site plan approval for the garage as well as an amendment to the previous approvals for the hotel one to allow for off site parking which will be required now that we're moving the garage off to a separate property and and any other miscellaneous minor changes to the site plan that are a result of this change um so we'll we'll see you on a number of fronts uh site plan approval subdivision amendment to previous site plan approval and um any other things traffic the traffic report is being updated as we speak i know that the traffic generation has been estimated to be about 88 cars during the pm peak hour which is an increase from the uh the 40 some odd spaces in the original approval um so far as i understand it from talking to uh the city manager's office uh we're going to make plans for a second egress from the garage out to the haney lot that that operationally may not be open all the time but it's there as a sort of recommended procedure so that should anything ever happen to the primary egress we could still get people in and out of the building um there's also a uh deeded access to this little parking area here behind the overlook partnership has a building here um we have to maintain both that that right away in some form and access to that parking and i think there'll be a lot of discussion as we go through the permit process to talk about this bike uh the ada accessible route for the state street that goes down through the project and connects to the bike path at that point so with that overview in place i i guess i would offer myself up for questions from the board and see if there's any specific area you'd like me to go into one one area i'm interested in is the water for this uh particular lot in the earlier iteration there was a talk of a water main going underneath i think coming in from office state street how is that to be modified with the new design and the subdivision well the uh both in terms of waterline and in terms of sanitary sewers or storm sewers uh there's there's going to be some easements recorded that come along with this application the plan has been there's an existing 10 inch water line that comes down through the site and currently cuts cross goes underneath the rectory building or the church hall building at christ church and loops back to the buildings along main street here the intention our work with public works is we're continuing to design a system that will bring a water line in here and cut over to main street and loop that water system for the rest of downtown the exact route of that has not been presented to me but i i assume the goal is to get it out from underneath the church property building and into an open space to bring it down come around this building and go over similarly storm water flows from from the capital plaza building and from the hampton in there's a series of uh collectors that are sort of their catch basins that that use cyclonic forces or whatever to remove solids that they're called for technique units there's one brand name anyhow um storm waters will will be collected on the adjacent site but they will continue as they have in earlier designs route through the garage footprint and end up at a head wall here associated with the bike bridge and the disjoint discharge for storm water flows will be integrated into that element so that will involve both the bike path project the subdivided lot we're creating for the Montpelier city garage and the capital plaza project including the new hampton in there is plenty of water 10 inches is way more than is needed for the hotels uh that the idea behind of having this 10 inch line come through here is to maintain pressure throughout a loop system in the whole of downtown the parking garage itself won't have any water demands other than it will have a dry sprinkler system in it and standpipes in the stairwells to service fire you know fires in the garage itself we are we've been asked to explore by public works the use of uh district heat for purposes of melting snow in some locations so that'll that's going to be a part of one of these applications as far as the storm water as far as the storm water goes for the expansion of the the garage is there additional storm water that's proposed for the heaney lots that are affected or is that well there are there are existing collection systems out there some of them are going to have to get rerouted as a result of the new footprint there's there's some catch basins that currently exist i think this is one of them right here that we'll have to get reconfigured as part of this redesign of the site but the the the flows down and through this corridor are essentially the same i mean all of this area back here is paved right 100 so the the project site itself isn't really introducing much in the way of new storm water catchment area in fact it's improving it somewhat by increasing the amount of green space in and around these buildings where it's currently parked the only storm water that needs to be treated as urban runoff is the top deck apparently which will we'll have to go through a uh one of these four technique units or some similar means of cleaning the water than that all the interior drainage goes into the sanitary system you had mentioned uh a sprinkling sprinkler system in the garage how do you present that how do you prevent that from freezing up during wintertime there's no water in a dry system uh it's a it's a series of pipes and heads and then uh typically what will happen is if uh if a fire goes off the lines are are maintained in a state of vacuum so if a head pops it'll trigger a bunch of valves opening and the water system will flood alternatively the fire department can can charge with a pumper truck or or they'll have stand pipes in each of the stairs which is typically how they'll fight car fires as they'll run up the stairs but dry systems are used routinely throughout and I'm interested in knowing about uh you're thinking about floods in the river it's it's very uh you know it's right up to the to uh sort of the buffer around the river um I assume that you know you the flood the the uh the flood folks in the planning office say that you're beyond where the risk is or you have a plan and all of downtown is is in a flood hazard area um the flood way uh basically follows the river I I had some mapping but I'll just uh the this stuff is outside of the flood way and it's considered more of the adjacent flood plain area um the strategy here is for us to design this project in a way that it doesn't reduce the volume of storage capacity currently on the site and the way we're doing that is by by sort of flattening out this lowest level and dropping it down to uh 519 I think or 518 depending on final decisions um so that so that that volume is maintained I see what that means is is essentially the basement of there the lowest level in the garage is wet fire flood proofed which means that a terrible flood water could flow into the building that's great and it won't damage things but it will be it would be free to flood it would be free to flow right back out again it's not impeded in any way that's great um and the uh the building elevations proposed for the project um uh show that there are the ground floor is largely open with with either security grills or living wall system and so any of the actual systems will be above that that flood grade any uh any um any equipment has to be above level 528 you know with a with a hydraulic elevator we can we can put the pump actuators either in the shaft on a that ride up and down with the cab and then and our fire stop would be above 528 or we could put the if we decide to use one that has a machine room we can put that machine room on an upper level the only other electrical equipment in the building apart from the lighting is um would be the equipment that runs the gates and takes care of payments and stuff like that somewhere in this somewhere in this footprint we're going to build a a small like 80 square foot closet for a server and and the electric equipment that runs the the parking management equipment we are also exploring the use or the application of solar power to the project we've started conversations with a couple of vendors to get pricing together we we don't we know that we want to at least provide for the addition of solar power it's on point in the future if it doesn't fit into the original budget so that would mean conduits and some extra boxes and things um and we are also committing to providing electrical vehicles charging stations um the precise number I think is is um actually spelled out in your ordinance yeah and uh we were undertaking a review to see if that's if that's adequate and appropriate or if any additional ones need to be provided but we are we are working on those features as well they would just have to be put on upper levels to be to be flood resistant the um frontage I think you had described at the last meeting but I I appreciate understanding you know there's a requirement of of frontage and and that was in a staff comment um luckily we don't have any teenagers here to deride me for my poor computer skills okay it says it's working uh the proposal as it stands right now is to uh is to create a um easement and a right of access easement on the capital plaza property I'm sorry it's just that easement would be inscribed over this this drive that comes in from Taylor Street goes through the project and goes back out to state and so we would essentially be extending the frontage out to state street by by virtue of creating this this easement through the site and it does show on the plan document I just don't have in trouble getting it open but that's the plan anyhow is to create a is to is to solve that by creating an easement there's been some back and forth discussion about how wide that needs to be to meet the requirement um we would prefer it to be 24 feet wide because that comports completely with the drive lanes that we have um it doesn't uh it doesn't necessarily um meet the the text of the the ordinance which I believe says 30 feet um if if it were wider it just means that it would overlap parking spaces in a kind of awkward way but rather than that really I don't think is well if it I mean if it did overlap with the parking spaces um is no I don't think the requirement is that it occupy I mean you could still have those parking spaces as long as but I think it's the idea that if the city needed wider access it would have that um for the 30 feet is that something that is negotiable or I mean a possibility or is it likely that it's going to be 24 and that's as wide as um I'm sorry Dan can I interrupt for just a second because I think we're operating under some misconceptions so the my read is that this new parcel needs to have 30 feet of frontage on a private or public road so the 30 foot wide part only needs to be the part that's touching the parcel right right so I just want to make sure that we understand that 30 feet aspect I don't believe the 30 foot wide aspect needs to extend all the way to state street right but we're talking we're talking merely touching yeah I just want to make sure because when we're talking about having to act cover the parking spaces further out just because you know the parking spaces aren't right up against the building okay but I'm also concerned just simply from a right of way access gotcha we were just mixing what we were talking about okay thank you yeah we've been happy to do we our clients are happy to do it either way but we've from the very inception of this project sorry we've been we've been thinking of this as as wanting to be like and look like a street as opposed to a parking lot which is what you go into now when you go there so it's been a working title for it's been hospitality way although I gotta believe you probably have some noteworthy Montpelier resident could be memorialized with a street name but at any rate that however you tell us you want to describe right do we still Meredith we still have the right to name streets under the DRB um I believe that Audra needs to check and see what's available okay well I mean the old bylaws used to give this board I think the board still has at least some of it I I honestly this will be the first time I've dug into that too much the first time it's come up I'm gonna go ahead and veto Dan Richardson drive right now okay um any other questions from any other board members any issues you're going to need a boundary line adjustment on the heating lot or how's that gonna work because this is going to extend over into this other lot and this problem this lot that's being proposed isn't big enough to fit the building well well both the the lands of Haney and the the lot that's getting capped off by the Capital Plaza Corporation both will be involved lands the Haney lot is only subject to a long-term lease so the directions we've been getting from other parts of the city government have been that is that is that we wouldn't change the shape of the Haney lot or anything like that we're frankly looking for folks on your side of the table to tell us just how that needs to be structured but we weren't planning on further subdividing the Haney lot anyway I think your client was raising his hand the city has a 49-year lease on that parcel which is pushing the boundary of the expected life of the garage so we are we've reached an agreement with the and and the lease allows us to construct a building on that their property with their permission that granted permission we're creating an addendum to that lease which would call for what happens so we would provide you the option so you can purchase the property at the end of 49 years the Haney's could purchase interest in the garage at the end of 49 years or we could agree to take it down so those of you who are we have control of that property for I think 48 that's the current plan Mayor is there any concern about a building straddling a property line as far as setbacks there's zero setbacks in this particular district so with the setback issue there's none and when we get to this issue when we get to site plan we have multiple legal opinions dealing with this issue okay I mean yeah at this point I guess we're just looking at lot two it's I just I don't have those in front of me because it's not this application perfect no thank you so I know that there are members of public I don't know if anyone had any comments or questions that they wish to come up if you just come up to microphone introduce yourself I can see Sandy vitz to him is it working yeah it's mostly for the recording yeah and I am part of the group called the Montpelier heritage group our purpose is to preserve protect and advance the sense of place in Montpelier and that can include streetscapes actual buildings historic preservation and all of the other parts of the vitality think of the sense of place um we are really glad that the city has been so carefully following and reviewing the the the development so far it's a this is a huge investment in the city right in a key part of the city we remain concerned that um uh there may not in the in the effort to keep this going that there may not be a really thorough review of a lot of details and of things like the streetscape I was so happy to see that you're beginning to develop perspectives I had some concerns when I looked at them about relative elevations they used to float balloons to actually make sure that things were accurate as a way to prove that the perspective rendering is is correct and it's hard to compare an occupied building like the plaza with a parking garage so it would be might be really useful to have balloons or something because you know the floor to floor is different um but I know tonight you're actually speaking about the subdivision and I have a couple of very innocent questions because I I didn't know I just sort of in general curious about the subdivision I think the zoning ordinance kind of discourages people from making non-conforming lots right so what this would accomplish being a conforming lot good yep I mean some of the issues that we're raising and Meredith if you want to I mean the the big issue about whether or not this would be a conforming law is the frontage yeah the frontage needs to be ironed out well the other thing is I'm just thinking about the parking garages that I've been to the ones that are easier to use than the ones that are scarier to use and it seems to me that they work well when they're on a street and I was trying to think of my mind what is a street a street is it has something that is kind of people going both ways it has a destination at both ends as opposed to an alley the alleys can be a little bit scary and also be harder for people to find their way through if they're new to town like people visiting a hotel so I'm confused and maybe this actually might be the best drawing to to explain my or help me fix my confusion which is is is this the road is then L shape is the quote street that dark shaded areas to propose you're forming the corner because there's no way to get through to the Heaney lot to make it us through street not because the Christ church at Biskill bones yeah all that land to the east of that point okay oh you can't reduce the usable footprint of that you can't make cars smaller so that the garage can get narrower got you okay so that is there there is technically a way through um are you going to be changing the way the parking layout because I cut through that way sometimes with my little tiny Subaru and it's kind of hairy driving just that path that you have now through the roadway yeah I mean I'm guessing that the new hospitality street will be a little wider and more street like than you know the back way through the capitals parking lot several things will be happening one is that the finish grade will be less of a roller coaster we're going to smooth that out so that it's a more continuous grade and not there's some big dips in there but there'll also be sidewalks and trees and and curbs so it'll it'll feel a lot more defined as a road as opposed to now which is it's once in one continuous surface pavement with different kinds of striping on it and for instance from your new garage to state street which comes out I think by the post office yes will that be more like a street with parallel parking or well I mean well we're showing we're continuing to show the perpendicular parking here some of that is necessary to serve the commercial tenants in the capital Plaza building the bank most normally but there's a hair salon and a barber shop and the state has an office space in there so those will stay as with with perpendicular parking but yeah in terms of it being street like you know we're that's our goal is to have curbs and sidewalks and we've got a continuous accessible route that comes down along the side of that and to the garage and to the hotel building so we have been working on that connectivity when we get to site plan review I think we'll be happy to talk about that in detail you have a pedestrian way either in your property or along because now a lot of people get from the ATM over to the farmers market I mean the farmers market's going down through yeah right now there's a pedestrian walkway through there there's roughly eight speed eight feet on the north side of the parking garage to the property line eight feet okay and so there's plenty of room to put a sidewalk in there normally accessible route would be five feet wide that's something I would want to talk to the folks at the church about in terms of you know how they envision this all coming together because there's a I don't know there's a possibility that when they build onto the back of the church to put an apartment in they may not want that feature for some reason I don't know it's just I think with a sense of place developing a really successful grid for both cars and pedestrians bicycles that is rich rather than you know a bunch of dead ends and I don't want to resist any of that I'm only looking out for there's another property like owner involved so that's the only reason I'm hedging so Greg actually this raises some questions where the where the proposed right-of-ways come out at State Street and Taylor Street right now these are almost like driveway entrances is the proposal that those would be more street like in that they would be more almost like an intersection where the the road would not be going essentially off of a sidewalk ramp but would would meet State Street or Taylor Street on its same grade and have crosswalks and crosswalks no one's asked that question before I mean yeah we we were planning on you know especially at Taylor Street that intersections gets a lot of rework because the city's already started their project to dress Taylor Street up and so there's there's going to be improvements at that intersection none of the documentation I've shown so far has shown that relationship changing I would have to talk to our civil engineers about okay how that is and why the only thing I know for sure is we we would want to make sure that stormwater flows running down the curves of State Street didn't come down into the projects like because there's a drop of grade down through there right I assume you're doing some sorts of traffic studies because it this really changes the traffic pattern coming back out onto State Street which is already challenging yeah I had good fun getting into town tonight I understand what my pillars like at five o'clock but a traffic study is being done you know a lot of the traffic that's coming out on the street I mean right now there's 208 spaces of parking on on the Capitol Plaza lot plus the folks like Sandy and I who cut through the back right you know they come around yeah sorry there we go um yeah but those are those are valid questions that we should resolve and on along the the right of way that heads up from the north from the parking deck towards State Street on the right on the right side the east side if those parking spaces are reserved is there a plan for a pedestrian circulation for them to essentially cross over towards because most people that would park along where your arrow is and up you know would be using the Capitol Plaza or similar facilities um there's two there's two questions there whether or not these are reserved spaces and I think I might have to defer to Sue and Bill on that because the city's been talking about what I have to answer after talking about the spaces in the Heaney lot or the no no right where his right where his cursor is along those spaces well I think some of them are in our field savings bank we have to look at the ownership of I know the church is one of the options that we're actually pursuing is that those would become city streets we just didn't think we'd be able to have that all done in time for this process so we decided to go for the deeded right away to get this at some point those may all become entirely city streets which in case we have more that that's really our long-term preference but for now this is where where we're at right okay so well I mean obviously it's about reserves no but you know as long as those those spots do remain you know because we're changing the nature of that from really a driveway entrance exit slash cut through um into into what's going to be a main ingress egress for a substantial parking deck um whether there would be any type of either crosswalk or other type of so I agree with Greg we hadn't really talked specifically about the crosswalk at State Street that becomes a street that makes perfect sense I don't know why we wouldn't do that just a signal that that's what it is and I think you know to the Greg's credit theory that credit theory that its current function is to provide is access to parking right and with a very kind of meandering route through so a while there will be more parking there will also be a better defined route and you know more parking organized in and out of that parking one of the things that he mentioned earlier too is the idea that of an exit from the garage onto the Heaney lot at 60 State Street we're looking at that both ways either as a regular exit with the exception say of Saturday mornings when the farmers market was using that portion and closing it then or as only an emergency so that you know also could help disperse the traffic a little bit thanks any other questions from the board at this time is there Steve did you wish to come up to the mic then I have spent a lot of time studying the different iterations they keep changing I'm going to have a little bit of a challenge to keep narrow within but they're straight outside of the site plan or sub division as well the setback from the north branch is going to be a fundamental defining characteristic that bank is ambiguous at best right now the top of the bank and the bottom of the bank are some 8 to 12 feet of difference so the distance from the corner of the garage right there yeah right there to the river is I stepped it off at about 19 feet but you know you're trying to move a very heavy garage so I think your design development review board is going to need to require a clear marking survey quality aqua engineer water engineer to define what's the riparian boundary there traffic I believe is going to be the Achilles heel of this because you keep hearing different things you keep hearing a traffic study a traffic report a trip generation analysis when you're talking 348 cars plus the surface lot parking all those perpendicular spots that are remaining and the church spaces this is ripe to be a traffic nightmare not only within the lot the two easements as you're calling them but where they enter Taylor and state as well I predict that if this garage does go through in this location which I object for with good foundation you're going to end up needing to take the Haiti lot possibly by any eminent domain and turn that into a full street with a stoplight out of down because the number of times that these spots cycle from previous parking studies which the city has conducted during the day multiplied by the number of spaces in it multiplied by the other congesting traffic perpendicular in most cases is going to be a royal nightmare and yet the city is acting as the developer here and not no longer the regulator and so the typical due diligence that and skepticism that would be applied by officials employees of the city may not be brought to bear and it may fall inordinately to this development review board to investigate those I want to quote one line from 3505 where the purpose of the district is to maintain compact and walkable emphasis on walkable and then little II per end to to connect to and extend existing streets sidewalk path trail utility greenways and open space corridors to the maximum extent feasible so this runs directly contrary to that in that coming down through the Haiti lot there's talk of allowing a bike to get through and get around to the rear entrance of the garage through a little ramp where we just described coming down through the Haiti lot surrounding that back corner of the garage and a bicycle storage rack or get into the garage there there is so far no plan to connect that bike pedestrian access to the new bike path bridge and walkway that extends across confluence park and continues on to intersect with the others that has varying causes I think security of the garage is one but there's a retaining wall there that's not represented as showing a rail that kind of creates a moat type atmosphere environment in a flood situation the how those trails in that traffic flow the confluence park is really going to be meaningless if it's hidden behind this garage and inaccessible if you have to go through a 50 foot urban canyon that's only 10 feet wide between the hotel in the parking garage and then turn southeast and go down and cross the at the bike path to get to that teeny little posted stamp park nobody's going to bother there's not going to be any more view of the city superior court building capital city hall any of our church steeples all those views will be blocked from that confluence park i'm just throwing a lot of cautions and i've written some of them in a kind of an imaginary walking tour of how this would create so many obstacles i really think that we need to be very rigorously skeptical and challenge uh every piece of this location this location is set by default by a prior permitted project that couldn't get insured and then shifted to city ownership so there may be an attempt to bypass development or need more approval due to it being a city-owned project so i i just want to caution you that the this is very high stakes 40 year 16 million dollars with interest uh the stormwater wastewater treatment is not accounted for both either for location uh brake dust rubber filtration any of that uh those systems are the green wall costs were not factored into the payback estimates for the we're getting into next week's uh or two weeks from now you heard that a hundred percent of this parcel is paved that's not true because you saw the contours there's a good section of that gray section in the middle of the garage that's absorbent dirt and grass at present because i scamper up and over at it you know during the farmers market um you saw an elevation model of a that showed the garage well below the railroad bridge the railroad bridge is at about 30 feet elevation uh the top of the railroad bridge and this is going to be 50 something feet so how the garage appeared lower than the railroad trestle is is quite baffling uh unless the right i i think the board made a comment about that as well with the balloons that it's often all right you know perspective well i mean it's it's a it's a point well taken that sometimes when you look at this kind of perspective it it does have that appearance but we don't know what it looks like in the balloons you know and you know steve from cell tower cases the the balloons are often the best way of determining the the actual height as it appears in fact there's a couple of weights sitting there that nobody unused behind the video console that could anchor those balloons so i'm happy to cooperate on putting those up and measuring and verifying the proper length of cable yeah i i don't think anyone would stop you from flying the restrooms it's going to need to be further it's going to be a wastewater treatment because whatever gets left gifted in the garage ends up in the wastewater in the storm water and there are no public restrooms within reach of this and that's what most of these crashes that that's smelling like um i think most of the rest can wait and i will provide you with some written stuff that you'll help prompt your questions and refine your questions for next uh hearing thank you i would ask you i did read that you can require a traffic study i believe you're going to get less than a full traffic analysis especially based on the parking anomalies the perpendicular parking anomalies that surround this whole project and that you're going to need to insist on uh a full traffic analysis because if this is going to end up requiring a full street and or new traffic signals uh that's going to fundamentally change the character of my failure as a pedestrian and walkable city thanks any other questions from the board can i just yeah if everyone who spoke tonight can please make sure to put their addresses down on that form sign-in sheet i'd appreciate it thank you and that's for mailing purposes is that right yeah that's for mailing purposes okay clear an act 250 so this is being developed from the hotel but when the hotel gets act 250 is this part of the act 250 application the the guidance we've had from the district coordinators that they want to see one application covering all of it we would have preferred to come in with two separate applications but nonetheless it's our hope that the project will be reviewed under board rule 6068 b which is sometimes called the off ramp we're collecting findings from various state departments right now uh several of them are enumerated in the rule but we hope to perfect an application for to the district five commission to have findings on this that a permit's not required as part of a designated downtown on the parking garage on the whole thing the whole on the whole thing and like i said we would rather process two separate applications we got it we got a jurisdictional opinion from the district coordinator that a hotel room is a dwelling unit and so there's more than 10 rooms it would have to have a permit the uh city's parking garage absent anything else shouldn't really require one because municipal facilities are exempt but the they're seeing it all working together and so i think the minimal process laid out in front of us is is more than adequate so much of the act 250 criteria and don't apply uh in an urban lot you know there's not an issue of forestry or prime ag soils or so we're getting the letters and signoffs on that and and hopefully that will be processed sort of on a parallel track with this set of applications great any other questions yeah rob yeah um so there's been some discussion about the river setback i was just wondering if that was something uh that if you had a draft survey plat the next meeting that that line was going to be shown and determined or have you already the drawings on civil engineering associates title block including this one are the result of a very detailed survey undertaken by them so so they i mean we can bring the worksheets but the uh the top of bank was defined as this first dotted line here this parallel line to it this heavy dotted line here is the 20 foot setback required in this district okay and according to your rules uh roughly 50 percent of that can be covered up the the only part of the river frontage that really belongs to the projects down here uh because there's a property corner there and all of this belongs to overlook partners um but i'm i'm supremely confident that our surveyors have adequately identified the location of that top of bank absolutely okay unless there's any other questions or concerns i think this will conclude site plan or sketch plan uh sorry long night sketch plan review for the city of Montpeliers uh parking garage project at 100 state street and given the new bylaws we don't have to actually make any motions or review anything to determine the next step of course would be the um the actual site plan and final final plat review for the subdivision so thank you all thank you for your time everyone yep thank you okay uh the other business for this evening the next regularly scheduled meeting is monday october 15th 2018 7 p.m same time same channel okay um and probably same applicants um any other new business yes this question for meredith meredith um draft findings that are filed my understanding but they would be circulated among the board members before being finalized am i am i correct so it's something that we have done i think when we have had decisions where we there were questions on how what how they were dealt with well we weren't we weren't necessarily going to do it with all of them because it wasn't necessarily something to discuss where we were going to do that with all of them well with regards to deliberative session this is what i'm talking about and i don't believe that we've seen those draft decisions circulated among the membership so okay and i'm asking yep and that they be circulated okay sure i mean um so i think we were going under the understanding that as in past practices that if the board had decided a certain direction that uh the chair and staff would draft it up and i'd sign it um and so we haven't been circulating those so that would be so they're so for example the school school um issued did you issue it Friday no i haven't had a chance to i was i was working outside of normal and we can still share that one we can still share that one i don't i don't want to make this a additional burden but i do think it's important that's fine to to solicit the board's input and if you don't have a comment you don't have to respond you can just make the assumption that um 24 hours to review or whatever some reasonable period of time okay so yeah i'll i'll either give us set time to review yep i think that's perfectly legitimate okay but i do think it's important that the board have a chance to do a walkthrough with uh the draft i think that makes sense for the deliberative session yes um about talking about everything right for example like the decisions that we issued tonight essentially meredith will help draft i may do a final review and then sign and i really am focusing on the deliberative session okay and then in you know as i as you've seen in what we've circulated one two others that really the the staff report as much as possible is the first draft so okay and you do a great job on those i want to thank you okay so i have a question that maybe as follows up on that and i'm just curious on how montpellier does it because i know it's works differently in different towns when when the decision is made here is that when you consider the date of the decision or this is the decision of it is when you sign it because i think i've heard there could be a bit of a tricky you know when to do verbally approve it versus when you actually sign it to when it's actually approved for the 30 days i was curious on how you have it yeah so so the decision in here triggers the 45 day window for the decision for a decision to issue yeah for a decision for deemed approved purposes and then the actual written decision is the trigger for the 30 day appeal period when that decision is signed the signature date on the written decision is the beginning of the appeal period okay so when so when they leave i just wanted to make sure that when they leave here and they're verbally hearing you're approved they're not thinking oh that starts my 30 days like that 30 days doesn't start until they actually get the paper in their house there's a gap and that's why we had the clarification for the first application that they need to wait for the permit and that that lays out clearly for them when they're when there's a date on there that says when the appeal period is over okay any other i'll take a motion to adjourn motion by kevin seconded second by tom all those in favor please raise your right hand we are adjourned