 Well, thanks for having me on the program Luke. I'm a former, I was the former leader of the National Socialist Movement. That's correct. And I was, I was involved from a very young age. I was interested in national socialism and from a very young age because my grandfather fought in the Third Reich, so I had this fascination with that history and unfortunately it led me down that path. No, no, no one else is to blame but myself, but unfortunately that family history was was was the intricate for me getting involved in that extremist movement. And what do you think it was about national socialism that triggered your interest? Well, as far as the politics was concerned that that all came later. That all came when I after I was involved. So it was more the military history, more the the family connection that originally attracted me to it. It was that you know, basically that military history and all that. It wasn't national socialism. I didn't learn until after I joined the National Socialist Movement at about 18 years old around that time. But before that I was radicalizing reading mind-comp at 16 and you know becoming involved in in in these type of in that type of thinking and it was it was just a rabbit hole after that. You know, you went down the rabbit hole and and started becoming involved in in these type of activities, unfortunately. Were you a bit of an adrenaline junkie as a teenager were you looking for excitement and roles? I think so. I think that's a lot of us when we were when we're at that age and in that space in our life, you know, we're kind of looking for things like that. For me, I grew up in rural Minnesota. You know, there wasn't a lot of things to do and all that and and there certainly wasn't a lot of people of different ethnic and racial backgrounds. It just the area I grew up in it was mostly white and I didn't have a lot of interaction with people of other races with, you know, the exception of just very few that were in that area at the time. So You know that I'm sure all the all of those things play a part as well. And was part of the attraction that it was widely regarded as like the most evil movement and one says this is evil and a contrarian part of you said, oh, let me let me check it out for myself. No, absolutely not. Actually, I think that's a common misconception, Luke. You know, a lot of times there is people that join these movements that want to be doing something bad or evil or things like that. But that's a common misconception. Most of the, in my experience, most of the people that of that mindset, you know, that they're looking to join something that's bad to do something wrong or bad psychologically, there's some other issues there. They could be sociopaths, psychopaths. And I did encounter a number of those type of people over the many years that I was involved in this stuff. But I would not say that's the majority. The majority of the people, myself included, getting involved in these type of things, we believe that we were doing something noble, something good, something honorable. And I know that's a hard pill for a lot of people outside that life to understand or comprehend. So I try to explain it in the most delicate or simple way as possible. But no one wakes the best way I can explain it in simple terms is no one wakes up one day and says, you know what? I want to be the bad guy. I want to be the bad guy. I want to be hated. I want to be part of this unpopular movement. That's not that's not very common. I mean, that might fit into that sociopath or psychopath category. But generally, generally speaking, people join these movements, thinking that they're doing something good. So that's where and we can get to that later in the conversation. But when we talk about disengaging and de-radicalization, that's an important thing to know in that in that strategy. Right. But my question was where you were contrarian, not that you thought you're doing evil, but you must have heard that mind calm for Nazism is really evil. And maybe you wanted to investigate to make your own moral determination. I'm sure you did not pursue national socialism because you thought it evil. You thought you thought it good, but you must have been aware of the widespread opposition to mind calm and to national socialism. And so I'm wondering if it appeared to a contrarian part of your nature. Yeah, no, I understand what you're saying now. And yes, of course, in school and growing up and things like that, you heard that everyone in the schools and all that, we all heard that national socialism was bad and evil and things like that. So I felt like I'm going to investigate this. I'm going to look into this. I'm going to explore different avenues. And then you start getting into the Holocaust revisionism and all these different things. And all it takes is one thing down that conspiracy theory rabbit hole, so to speak, where something grabs you and you go, you know what, I don't believe this. This is this isn't accurate. What they're teaching is lies. And this coming from a propagandist later on from a propaganda standpoint, you pick that kind of stuff apart. And that's how you get I mean, that's how conspiracy theories work. You get that person in on whether it's one particular thing or whether it's many things. And then it just builds off of that. So yes, I certainly felt like I was investigating these things. And but what it is, it's confirmation bias. So you have two sets of the facts. One is the real facts. But the other is what you believe to be the facts. It's this other set of facts. And it's not actually facts, but you think it is. And that's confirmation bias. So you go, well, the history book says that and we'll just use the Holocaust for an example. Like the history books say the Holocaust happened and so on and so forth. This other set of so called facts that aren't actual facts. But you believe they are, say, no, it wasn't it wasn't accurate. This is what really happened. And automatically your mind goes, you know what, I'm going to believe that other set of facts, the wrong set. Now, were you a contrarian prior to reading mind comp? Did you enjoy triggering people? Did you enjoy argumentation when you're a teenager? Hmm. I don't I don't think so. I would say mind comp really didn't have that profound of an effect on me. It was it was a hard read, especially at that age. I was reading it in small bits, like a few pages a day and and, you know, taking it all in, but it was it was quite boring, actually, especially the early parts of it. So that wasn't as big of that didn't hold as big of an effect on me. It wasn't until after I actually joined the movement and then you're surrounded by this echo chamber, you're surrounded by everyone else thinking the same the same thoughts. And if you had questioned something, everyone's in that bubble or behind those barriers in that echo chamber and you just it's just around and around and around. So if you ever questioned something, you quickly had three, four, five, 10, 20 people to refute that and go, no, no, you're wrong. And so that's not how it works. So how did you become interested in joining the movement in the first place and how did you go about it? So that interest, again, it came from that family history. And I always saw it, you know, at a young age that it was I was fascinated by that. So I thought to myself, you know, if there's groups like this around, that's that's something that I want to get involved in. I want to I want to join. I want to continue that that that legacy, so to speak. So I sought out the groups and back in those days. So I joined back in the early 1990s. That wasn't there wasn't a lot of online stuff going on at that time. For the listeners, that was before that was when you'd still look up things in books. And so I was, you know, reading books at the library, reading books, getting all the books I could get my hands on to learn about this stuff. And I came across a book that I believe was called 88 at the library. And it was written by I believe it was this was so long ago, but I believe it was probably written by sociologists that were studying the movement in the back of that book, because they were talking about different different groups. And in the back of the book, all the groups that participated in the study or in this particular book had a little description about themselves and addresses where you could write them. So that was the first time that I saw ability to actually find these groups, because in rural Minnesota, there wasn't anything like that. So my goal after writing to all these different groups was to find something that was the closest to the German movement here in the United States. And that's what led me to the National Socialist Movement. And what was so enticing or fascinating about the Nazi movement? Because I see like every guy I know loves to watch documentaries on Nazism. There's something about the uniforms, the whole gestalt of it that is just immediately fascinating to men in particular. But I was just wondering if you can articulate it better. As far as I mean, the Nazi every guy I know loves to watch documentaries about Nazis. It's just inherently fascinating. But I can't quite put my finger on why it's so immediately fascinating. So aside from your family connection to the Nazis, can you articulate what was it that was so fascinating to you about the Nazis in World War Two? Sure, for me, and I think for a lot of those people, a lot of it, some of it has to do with the symbology, the symbology, the symbolism, the discipline, the order of it all. The the Nazis were known for doing these big marches and putting on these demonstrations and then the symbolism, too. They picked specific symbols that go back in human history as powerful symbols. The swastika was the symbol of the sun. And it's also used if it's flipped backwards, it's used in other cultures in Asia and other places as well, even the indigenous folks here in the United States. It's these are ancient symbols, so there's power in those symbols. And that's that's why I believe they utilize them. And I think that's probably part of the draw to it is the symbology, the discipline, the you know, all of it. A lot of people don't know this, but Hugo Boss the famous lot of people get the cologne and all that. But he was involved, I believe, in the making the SS uniforms, even. Yeah. And then what was your experience once you went to a meeting or you met an individual or how was your entry into the movement? Well, I wrote I wrote a bunch of different organizations at the time. And I was going through the book and writing the ones that seem to be the most interesting at first, trying to get newsletters and things like that. Couldn't really find anything in in Minnesota. And finally, I wrote to a Christian identity group and they had a at the time they had a book store at the State Fair in Minnesota. It was really nobody would know it was Christian identity. You walk up to it and you think it was just a church bookstore. So they had a booth there. And when I went to visit them at the State Fair, they had a list of the contacts and the groups and stuff that were in the area. So after that, I wrote to or I wouldn't have wrote to him. I called the hotline numbers that they had for the different groups at that time, which was National Socialist Movement, Hammer Skins, Nationalist Party, I believe, or Nationalist Movement and maybe a Klan group, but I contacted the groups in Minnesota. And I thought the National Socialist Movement was the closest thing I could find to the original German party. So that's that's where I went. And so what did it what did it do for you that got you so involved? Well, you know, and a lot of people ask over the years, you know, what did it do for you? Well, it brings to your life suffering, struggle. It doesn't do anything for you. It actually causes you it causes you to ruin your life is really what it does for you. There wasn't any gain or anything like that. And again, that's a misconception sometimes. And once in a while, people would join us. Well, what do I get if I join the movement? Well, blood, sweat and tears, you know, it's not you don't really get anything, but you have this belief that you're part of something that's greater than yourself. You think you're doing something good and noble. So you will in the sacrifice just about anything for it. And I can share a quick story on that of somebody that a young man that that we were working with trying to help get out of the movement and what we do now and what I do now. And he said, you know, I was explaining these are the things some of the things that I've been through my life, you don't want this life for you. You've got your whole life ahead of you. You're 20 years old, 19, 20 years old, you know, you could die. You could go to prison. You could this this could be your, you know, the life that you've had. I've been very fortunate to have lived through it. I don't a lot of people that haven't. And his answer to me was at the time he says, maybe I'll do like you did. I'll be in the movement for 25 plus years and then I'll just retire. I said, man, you you missed the entire point of what I just said. You probably won't make it. You probably won't get that far. That was the whole point. And then he says he says, well, let's just if the cause is right, if the cause that I'm fighting for is right, my life means nothing. The cause means everything. And I remember the hair on the back of my neck standing up because that's the exact same thing I would have said at that age when I was involved in it is that that mindset that that feeling like your life doesn't mean anything. And the cause means everything. And I told that story to another individual that that it was out that had come out around the time I did. And before I even finished the story, he says, brother, that is the exact same thing we would have said at that age. And I was like, that's why I'm telling you the story. So why do you think you didn't feel like your life was worth anything during during your 10 years prior to joining the movement? I mean, people, people must come from that place to be willing to sacrifice so much. So what do you think it was about your life that led you to feel like it wasn't worth anything? Well, I don't think I mean, I don't think it's that we didn't feel that our lives were worth anything. It was that the cause was that much more important. So no, I always valued my life. I would think, you know, it's not like something I wanted to throw away or or anything like that. But you looked at it through this sense that we looked at it through this sense of that if we lost our lives for the cause, you know, we'd be martyrs for the cause or it would be, you know, a sacrifice. It wasn't something anybody was like saying, you know what, I want to just throw my life away. It didn't work like that. It was, you know, and I grew up in a decent family and in a good household, you know, and I want to preface that by saying to my family did not encourage. In fact, they highly discouraged me becoming involved in the movement. In fact, they tried very, very hard to get me out for many, many years. So now were you popular in school? Did you have a girlfriend where you're getting great grades? Could you look forward to a thriving career? I was doing all right in school until until I stopped. I started skipping school and things like that. But I was I was doing quite well in school, had girlfriends. That was never a problem. You know, did pretty well. I wouldn't say I was like popular or anything, but I wasn't bullied or or picked on or anything like that either. So I mean, I'm sure I mean, I've had fights and things like like anybody else. But, you know, I had lots of opportunities in school to school. In fact, for the senior, my senior year, I was doing so well in school. I had an opportunity to go to I don't remember what it's called, what the term is called, but where you go for your last year of school, your senior year, you can go on to college. And I had that all set up to go to be to learn to be a disjock. To learn to be a disjockey to work at a radio station and all that. So I was going to go to school for for that because music was always a passion of mine. I was in a band later on and and doing something with music was my passion. So I had a free year of school of college that I could have went to. And I screwed it up by not showing up at school, skipping school. Then eventually getting thrown out of my parents' house for just disobeying the rules and things like that. And so I had a little bit of a more I had a rebellious stage there for a bit. Now, if I look for a through line in your life, it seems like you are always primed for life in performance. So your work with National Socialism as a leader was in as a performance. You're also in performance now. This is not a negative term. I'm in performance also. But is that fair to say there is a through line? You are you are built and building for performance. That's that's that's an interesting question. It's a good way or it's a it's a it's a unique or a different way of looking at it. But yeah, I've heard that before not in that exact wording, but in in similar in a similar sense. Someone had mentioned to me in the work that I'm doing now. They said, well, Jeff, you know, you've always been an activist. You know, you've always been out front and an activist. And I said, well, yeah, I guess that's right. That is a way to look at it. It's just you I carry a lot of guilt and shame from my past. So I a lot of times don't think of it that way. But other people have said too well, you know, from being in a band and being on stage to doing this and then speaking out and speaking out now. It does all it does all is the very public. It is a very public life. Yes. I mean, George Lincoln Rockwell was also very skilled at performance. I mean, his he chose like the Nazi party as his his emblem and his name because it would attract the most attention. It was the most galvanizing. And so do you did you experience some similarities with the life of George Lincoln Rockwell? Did you resonate with his experience? Yes, yes. And reading his books and learning about excuse me and learning about his life very much. So there was a lot of similarities. His his folks, I believe he was involved in Vaudeville performance. And like you said, you know, he had a background in that. So, yeah, there are certainly some similarities in that. Rockwell was assassinated. Fortunately, in my life, I've had the opportunity to turn my life around and now do something good with that skill set, do something truly honorable and truly noble with with the work I do today with young barriers. Now, you mentioned earlier that the movement gave you nothing, but I would offer to you that the movement gave you what was probably most the most important thing you were seeking, which was. A mission, it gave you importance and it gave you a mission. You were in charge of this movement and you were the guy for this movement and you were all over the news media. And you had a lot of people looking up to you and you had a powerful role. And so I feel like the movement gave you purpose and mission and importance and camaraderie and community and people. A lot of people really, really need these things. Any thoughts? Well, that that is accurate. And I'm glad you mentioned the term mission because that that is definitely it and in a lot of ways. And it is one thing that attracts a lot of people to the movement. When when I heard the initial question, like, what does it give you? You know, the initial reaction is that it doesn't give you anything. You know, it gives you a lot of bad experiences. But in that sense, yes, the movement is set up. A lot of the movements, the movement that I was part of was set up to operate in a lot of ways like a family unit. So that is one of the hardest things to break free from for a lot of people to break free from that because where's the you know, what's the alternative for a lot of people? For some that are coming out, it might be their church, their mosque, their synagogue, whatever religion, it might be a civic group, a social group. It's different things for different people. But yes, you know, the movement did provide that. So in a lot of times there was different people that would get involved. That would just be kind of like your loners or people that had trouble making friends or things like that. So that that trajectory is certainly there for different people. That's why you can't just say, well, everybody gets involved for this reason or for that reason, because there's so many different reasons that one can get involved in. So yes, of course, you know, those aspects were there and they played a part in it. And having that mission, that is a big, a big part of it because you wanted to I can just speak for myself. Like I say, I wanted to be part of something, do something good that was greater than myself. And that was, you know, going into the movement. I didn't intend to be the leader or anything like that. That was never a goal of mine that just I was appointed to do it and and took it on from there. And then you feel like you're stuck because you've dedicated all this time, energy, effort and all that to this to this cause. And those are some of the complications of getting out for different people. These are a lot of complex feelings and things like that. So you're asking really intriguing, interesting questions. I think that a lot of people will be curious about. Yeah, I feel a sense of camaraderie with you because I've also had a disproportionate need for meaning and mission in my life. And and I found it by converting to Orthodox Judaism. But, you know, I kind of understand the desire to sacrifice everything for a great overarching cause. And I think my theory is it comes primarily from a lack of normal human connection. Like normal people are not looking to sacrifice everything for a cause. Normal people don't have this extreme desire for mission and for meaning because they get meaning from their relationships, from their family and their friends. But I'm going to assume you're just as for me, my family and my friends were not enough for me. I needed greater mission than that. I had, you know, 100 times the need for greater meaning and mission than the people I knew around me. Does that does that resonate with you? I haven't really thought about it that way. That's an interesting way of looking at it. But having that mission, I think is is important for a lot of people. And I know when I first when I first left the movement, when I was out and processing everything before I started doing the work that I'm doing now. I mean, I knew I was going to, but during that time, during that processing time and that self-reflection and that period of not having a mission, that was hard as heck. That was so, especially in having to process things and the beating yourself up over the past and things like that. So I can say when I got back on mission, which is what I'm doing now, having that mission certainly helpful, knowing that instead of spending all that time from the past of doing those wrong things, that now I was doing something truly noble that truly helps and unites all people, that helped a lot. And that is something that we see with a lot of the people that we work with too is they have, they're struggling at first to find that mission or to find their place in life. And for different people, it's different things. It could be a hobby, it could be anything. But I don't know that it's necessarily the people that were around us growing up or before that time. I don't know if that's, I think for everybody it's different, but for me, I don't think it was that because I don't think, I don't feel like I lacked anything in that time period. But I've always felt like having a sense of purpose was important for whatever reason. I think what we're talking about in part is a result of evolutionary mismatch. We evolved to live within a small tribe, a clan of up to about a hundred people. But now, that's how our species lived for tens of millions of years. But now we're thrust into a multicultural, multiracial world, which is not normal in human history. Normally you lived within a clan, you lived and died with a clan in a certain specific geographic area where your ancestors had lived. And now we're thrown into this multicultural, multiracial world of individuals. And many people feel that lack of connection to a clan and that desperate need for camaraderie. And it's a lot harder to find your clan and find your tribe in a multicultural, multiracial America. And I think one way that people find their tribe or find their clan is by joining movements such as the National Socialists of America. What do you think? Well, I mean, I think there's different ways to look at that. A lot of people will find their tribe or their clan or so to speak in sports even. Like you've got these people that go to the Detroit Red Wings game and that is their life. And they will fight the other team or just get all crazy about their sports team and stuff like that. And that does fall into that sort of tribalistic sense of things. And in that case, it has nothing to do with race. It has to do with, you know, they're all backing this team. But that same mindset can be put into that and that sort of tribalism can go towards race. It can go towards a religious group. We see it all the time where there's these, and even now in the polarized society we live in here in the United States between the Democrats and the Republicans, you have this huge divide and this huge polarization between them. So I think that can be applied across the board. I don't think it's necessarily directed specifically at the multiracial society or anything like that. So you were fighting for the white race. At the same time, you're a man, you must have been attracted to non-white women. How did you think about that? Or how did you deal with that contradiction between say your basic human nature to get with women and your commitment to the white race? That's a good question. I don't think anybody's ever asked that one publicly. But, you know, boy, where do I even start on that one? Yeah, there was a lot of irony and a lot of contradiction. Contradiction would be the right word there because of course, as a man, I'm finding different women attractive and things like that and more often than not passing up those opportunities or if I did date a girl of another background or something like that, it was something that you didn't talk about, you know, that you didn't tell your brothers and sisters or in the movement or things like that. So, you know, and there's people that did that stuff all the time. It's a life of many contradictions for a lot of people. And yeah, it's really ironic, a lot of those things, but the big picture of something like that is, is people are shutting themselves off to opportunities to meet people, not just in the dating sense, but I mean, just in friendship senses and things like that. I remember over the years, different people inviting me over for dinner or trying to befriend me or things like that, especially in the earlier years I was involved in the movement. I wouldn't have nothing to do with them. How many wonderful people did I block out of my life? And I know everybody in the movement does that. I mean, all the time it happens, so it's sad. I mean, at the same time, many American Nazi leaders have had non-white girlfriends and lovers and even like a Jewish wife. It's an interesting contradiction. I know some of these cases, I don't name drop or anything like that, but I definitely know more than a handful of cases like that. Yeah. So, yeah, even Nazis are human. The penis contradicts many an ideology. Yeah. It's true. Yeah, the penis never lies. Now, it was your human connections that led you out of national socialism. It wasn't that you read a particular book. It was your friendship with an Orthodox Jew in Detroit, your friendship with a black musician. Tell me more about the human connections that shifted you. So the human connections, especially, I have a few, there's so many because it didn't happen all at once. You know, a lot of people get this idea, well, he met him or her or someone met that person and boom, their life changed. And that can happen, but it typically doesn't. It typically is a series of events. So for me, and again, the irony. So being involved as the national leader for so many years, I did a lot of media, a lot of press. It was just part of the day-to-day job, so to speak. So I got contacted to do, this was in 2016, I got contacted to appear in a documentary, which was nothing new, nothing out of the normal. And they said, you know, we'd like you to come and film, et cetera, et cetera. Normally I would do background, I would check to see who the company was, what, you know, for security reasons and also just out of curiosity's sake. And for whatever reason at this particular time, I didn't do that. I didn't do the due diligence of looking into the background. So I really didn't even know who I was meeting for this film and it happened to be Mr. Darryl Davis. So for the listeners or viewers that don't know who Darryl Davis is, he's a famous black musician, he played as Chuck Berry, little Richard and many, many more people who lights the piano keys on fire, he's incredible. But I didn't even know I was meeting with him. So I'm sitting outside of this restaurant and he comes up and he says, well, you must be Jeff Scoop. And I was, who are you? He says, I'm the guy you're meeting today. I'm Darryl Davis. I'm like, oh, well, nice to meet you. I still, it didn't register. Who is this guy? So we sat down, we were having conversations and what I really liked about Darryl, well, before that, what he said to me in the conversation, now I'm on film, I'm on camera and I'm seeking, I'm doing my job for the movement. I'm gonna say my part and get out whatever I can in the press today. And we're talking and he tells me this story about when he was a boy, a young man, 11, 12 years old, something like that. And he was in the Boy Scouts and how adults and people were throwing rocks at him because he was the only black child in that Boy Scout parade that day and how he had to mention it to his parents what had happened to him. And they said, he's like, I don't understand why they don't like the Boy Scouts. And his parents said, Darryl, they were throwing rocks at you because you're black. And he says, that doesn't make sense. He says, they don't know me. Why would they throw rocks at me? So that was, that's Darryl's story. And that was the question that was posed to him was, or that he had wondered for all those years is how can someone hate me that doesn't know me? And he's sitting across from me and he's telling me this story about that. And I'm thinking at the time about my own kids and what would I do if my child had come home and told me that they were being pelted with rocks because they were white or because of whatever reason? How would I react? And I'm not gonna answer how I would react, you know, but it wouldn't have been good. And I thought about that because it's something about that humanistic, that vulnerability, Darryl showing that vulnerability and talking about how that affected him as a child that tapped into something that helped retap into my humanity and my empathy and compassion and all of those emotions where at the time it hit me, it hit me but I shoved that stuff back down deep inside and tried not to let it affect me. And within six months of that show or a year max, I met a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Diakan and a similar trajectory came out during that. But now I only had met Darryl just that day prior to that time, but with Diakan, I spent a lot of time filming for her award-winning film, Emmy award-winning film, White Right Meeting the Enemy because I was one of the main protagonists in that show. And I got to know her quite well. And in that, there's a part in that show and I don't remember all what they showed, but some of this you can see in the film is she's sitting across from me and she's telling me about how hatred affected her as a child similar to what Darryl did and how that made her feel. And Luke, I could feel her pain. I could like a vibe or an energy that was in the air. I could feel it. I could see it in her face and I felt it. And that was like getting kicked in the chest by a horse at the time. And that for me was the beginning of the end of my time in the movement because I did stay, I still stayed a while after that but by the end of that film, and of course this part wasn't in the film, but at the end of the film when we parted, D&I hugged and the ongoing joke through off-camera was she's like a bratty little sister because she was always pushing me, pushing me, let's film some more after eight hours, let's do some more, let's do some more. So I said, you're like a bratty little sister. So at the end, it was like we hugged and I was like, you have a brother for life. And I was still in the movement at the time and we just kind of laughed. She's like, we're not supposed to be friends. We're not supposed to even get along. Like this is really weird, but cool. And it was that human connection. That human connection is part of what we utilize today to reach people that are in these groups. What did you learn about the news media both from being interviewed as a Nazi and being interviewed as someone trying to bring about racial reconciliation? In what sense? Well, you've been interviewed a lot of times. Many, most people have never been interviewed. So you got to see how the sausage is made for the news. Most people don't get that experience. So you would have the interview and then you'd see an article come out and what did you learn from all these experiences? Oh, an incredible amount. I can tell you from my time in the movement even you might sit down and I did this with History Channel and countless news sources from around the world and things like that. You might see a little snippet on the television or in the paper or whatever, like a few sentences or a few minutes at the most, usually at seconds. And the people don't realize they had you sitting there for three hours, four hours or usually at least an hour or two answering questions and they only show a very small amount. So it had over the years in the movement I got to the point where I knew like if I got angry in an interview on purpose like if I got angry or I was saying certain things I could say in my head, that's the quote they're gonna use. And almost every time those are the quotes that they would use during that time because the most radical or the most angry thing that you said during that time, it's sensationalism. That's how the media works. They want something that's attention grabbing and stuff like that. So unfortunately I got quite good at that during that time but now on this side of things, it's different as well. You know, at first it was a bit of a struggle and there's people that doubt formers that former extremists especially someone like myself that had so many years in. There's people that don't wanna accept that or that are skeptical of change and things like that. So of course it's a challenge and everything but you have to walk in other people's shoes and I try to not get upset about it or angry about it because if I was on the other side looking at someone like myself, I might be skeptical too. So I try to be fair as possible and everything that I do and try to understand things from every angle and be understanding and kind about that and not get frustrated. Yeah, I think what you're saying is the media frequently just uses people as props but they have a story that they wanna tell and then they just take those snippets from their interview with you that fulfill the story they already wanna tell. They're not really listening to you, they're just using you as a puppet, as a prop, what do you think? Unfortunately, I don't wanna tire and feather the whole media as a whole because some of the different outlets do a really good job of telling the stories but I have been the victim of hit pieces before and especially is obnoxious when you spend an inordinate amount of time with someone and then a story comes out and they're quoting people that you've never met that don't know you or that met you for 30 minutes, once or twice as like experts on your life, like they know your story and then something else, some other spin comes out to fit a narrative. Yeah, it's unfortunate. So I do think that I've been critical of the media over different things, but I try not to paint it all with the same broad brush because that's the life I used to live was painting groups of people with a whole wrong brush and I don't feel it's fair to do that to people. So I think it's you've got negative things with the media but you also have positive things, so. You have a very different approach and a very different vibe from a Christian Piccolini. What do you think about Christian? I know you guys were friendly at one time and fell out. He wanted you to go about your recovery from anti-racism in a whole different way. What do you think of Christian's work? You know, I try not to be critical. I know he's went out of his way to say some very, very false and damaging things about me in the past and I think that just speaks to his character on what kind of a character he is and why he would do that to another former extremist that's coming out of that life, but I don't speak ill of anybody publicly or anything like that, including him and we have different ways of approaching this space and I can say the work I do is incredibly effective. We've beyond barriers and the work that I've done, we've helped countless people walk out of that life and I just say, let the work speak for itself and one thing I haven't done and one thing I won't do is I'm no one's puppet. No one can, no one's gonna say, well, you have to do this. You should do this or you should fit a certain political narrative as a non-profit 501c3 for beyond barriers, we are non-partisan and that is one of the reasons that we've been so successful on helping other people get out is because a lot of people and not all formers do this but some formers do this, they'll say, when you get out, you should go to the other side, you should go to the far left and if a person wants to go to the left, that's fine. If they wanna stay on the right, that's fine too. It doesn't matter, be somewhere in here in the middle, moderate, you can be right, be left, but don't be on those very far extremes of the extreme left or the extreme right and I think that's what, it's probably held me back in a lot of ways and on a personal level where if I embraced a certain political side, I'd probably have a lot more opportunities and things like that, but I can't do that. It's not, it doesn't work, first of all. If I just wanna be a person out there spewing another political narrative, how easy would that be to do? I did that for years and years and years. I know it like the back of my hand, but what I'm trying to do is make a change and try to help people and that's what I'm doing. So unfortunately it doesn't fit certain people's political narratives and that's tough because I'm not for sale. Did you investigate the psychological origins of your journey to Nazism and then the journey out of it? Yes, and that's an ongoing thing, but we are involved in different things that have, we've partnered up with Rand Corporation and helped in their study on former extremists and what had gotten people into the movement, what had gotten people out and we look at not just far right extremism but far left extremism, religious extremism, all kinds of things like that. So the psychological factors are quite interesting and it's stuff we learn more about all the time, but yes, I've processed a lot of that and learned a whole lot. But have you gone to therapy yourself? We do have people that are therapists and things like that on our team. So I have done a little bit of that but I did a lot of it myself. A lot of it was self-processing things and spending a lot of time on that, different techniques, but I have talked to a few people, yes. And so what are you doing today? What does, tell me more about your organization Beyond Barriers and how it works? So Beyond Barriers is a nonprofit 501c3 organization and we work in the counter extremism, deradicalization space. So we've got people that reach out to us for help leaving extreme organizations and we try to, we listen, we use our relational dialogue program, which is something that we've put together that gives people the skill set, basically to sum that up in a nutshell, what it is and how it works, sort of like how I explained how Dia and Daryl were able to reach me. These are some of the same procedures or some of the same tactics that we use with other people and giving them ways, other ways of viewing things. When someone comes to you and tells you, this is what I believe, et cetera, et cetera, you don't say you're wrong. If you say you're wrong and you attack that person or you say they're stupid or they're gonna go into defense mode automatically. So you don't do it that way. You offer them, you listen to them, but then you offer up other ways of looking at it or question it in a polite or kind way and say, well, what do you think about this? Or, well, what about this? And just give them things to think about it. They're not gonna, they might get defensive at first, but typically by the time they've contacted us, they're already starting to question things and it's not as difficult as one might imagine, as it would be to like, to try that tactic on somebody that's deeply embedded in that movement. It takes sometimes showing those vulnerabilities and like what Daryl and Dia had done to tap into that because I feel like when you get involved in these extremist organizations, you've kind of, you've lost your connection with humanity in a lot of ways. You've lost that ability to see beyond your tribe or beyond the people that are behind the barriers with you. You're not able to see that. So this helps like open up your heart and your mind and get you back to that experience in that humanity and not blocking those emotions and those feelings out. So we feel like that is a helpful way of going about it. So we work on that. We do counter messaging videos. We do a podcast, Beyond Barriers podcast. We do a lot of different things and then publicly speaking out and things like that. But I think what makes us different and the reason why I started Beyond Barriers because my initial thought was I wanted to be part of somebody else's organization but and learn as much as I could. And I did learn from a number of other formers and people that are out that have been really wonderful. TM Garrett was one, former Al Qaeda guy, Jesse Morton with light upon light. He was another person that was very supportive early on. Some of these guys that had went through that to struggle themselves that had been there and understood that. So I learned a lot from them but what it was with a lot of the people when I first went public, I started with my own website, jeffscoup.com and all these people were reaching out. I couldn't keep up with it. So I needed to assemble a team. And one of the things a lot of them were saying was that they won't talk to a lot of the other formers or again, I won't name names, but they'll say, well, if you're working with so-and-so or if that person is how you do things, I don't want to talk to you or I used to talk to this former but now they're retweeting Antifa stuff, et cetera, et cetera. I won't talk to them because they're the enemy. But I'll talk to you because you're not political. You're there in the middle, you're not being political. So that's why I think it's so incredibly important because it wasn't just like one or two. It was like literally one after another that we're saying these kinds of things. So I thought, you know what? We need to do this in a different way than the other groups are doing it. And we need to really make sure our team are staying as non-partisan as possible. And it's hard to do when you're in a highly politicized society and time. But if you want to be effective, in my opinion, and that's not to take away anything from anyone else, like maybe their methods work with other people, but what I've seen works is the method that we're utilizing in a way we're doing it and not being politically oriented. And what kept you from being a criminal and a mass murderer when you were in the National Socialist Movement? Did you even feel an inclination in that direction? That's a good question. I don't think that that was something that I ever wanted to do, you know? Like it wasn't something that I felt like killing people was a good thing to do. It just, that didn't make sense to me. If there was a war or something or if I was attacked, you know, I would defend myself, but doing something like that, even when I was in the movement over the years, anytime there was a mass killing or somebody doing terrible things, it didn't sit right with me. It just, the way I process that in a way a lot of people process those things, some people would say, oh, so-and-so is a martyr. And again, I won't name the people that have done that because we don't wanna give them that acknowledgement, but like people that have done the mass shootings and things like that, there's some people that look at that as martyrdom. But a lot of the other people, myself included, even when I was there, we couldn't make sense of it. We'd always say like, oh, that's hurting the movement. That individual must have gone crazy. That was just the simple way of looking at it. It was like, oh, they lost their mind. That's why they did that. They're crazy. That's really bad for the movement. And the first order of business at that time was always, when someone did something like that, was look at the membership roles, make sure that person wasn't a member because that would have been bad for the organization. Not just like this moral obligation that it was wrong, but that it would be bad for the organization. And I'm ashamed to say that now, but that's how it was viewed that you put the organization and the cause before anything else. Do you still make money from NSM88 records? Absolutely not. No. Now, when you were in the National Socialist Movement, you must have wondered why you so many criminally inclined and psychopathic people become attracted to our movement. And how did you answer that in your own mind? Ooh. There was a, hmm. You are asking the tough questions. There was that element. There was those people, but as I said, and unfortunately in that aspect of my life during that period of time, I probably encountered more of them than I would on a normal, any normal person would in a normal everyday life outside of extremism. So there is probably a, now would be an interesting question for the researchers is to see if, you know, what the percentage is of those type of individuals in extremist movements are. Again, I don't think it's the majority by any means from my personal experience, but we did encounter those. And typically when those type of people would come across my path, it made me very nervous because I can't, I don't know if anybody can, but I can't read a sociopath or a psychopath. There's, it's, they're blank. They're blank in their, in their headspace. They're very blank. Their eyes are blank. There's something missing there. And anybody that I can't read makes me uncomfortable. It makes me a little nervous because I'm not able to read their, what they're thinking or anything like that. So I usually kept the distance from those people, but at the same time, if they weren't saying anything illegal or anything like that, they would be tolerated in the organization. And they would, you know, the officers or whoever was in charge of that particular branch of the party would just be said, you know, keep an eye on so-and-so. They seem a little off, you know, or I don't know yet and what's going on with them. So other times people would come and suggest illegal activities or things like that. Like, why don't we go do this or why don't we go do that? And in the NSM, my take on people like that was one warning because sometimes these are young people that are trying to show off to the leadership. They think that they're gonna impress you by saying those things. Other times they were people that were sent in by the authorities or some organization that's monitoring groups like that. So we felt like those type of individuals were a liability to the organization and we didn't want them around. So if they were trying to show off, they got their one warning. If they did it again, they were thrown out. It was very strict policy in that sense, but not all of the organizations operate that way. Now, I would explain it with the simple phrase, only marginalized people become attracted to marginalized movements. To have a national socialist movement in an Anglo country like the United States means that you're gonna be marginalized because the country fought against national socialism in World War II. So a doctor, a lawyer, a professor, a CEO of a company is not gonna be attracted to a national socialist ideology because they lose everything that they have. So only people with essentially nothing to lose are gonna be attracted to a national socialist movement in America. What do you think? Typically you're right. Typically the majority of the people that were involved in it in the early days, back in the 90s, it was all blue collar and poor, blue collar and poor. That changed later, closer into the 2000s. That changed where some middle class were starting to feel a economic squeeze or things like that. And we were attracting people from the middle class as well, but the wealthy, never. At least in the organization that I was a part of, there was no very wealthy people. They weren't interested in that type of thing. So like what you said about people with nothing to lose and marginalized people, I think that's pretty accurate. And those also can make some of the most dangerous extremists because someone with nothing to, or that feels like they have nothing to lose can be incredibly dangerous as well. So tapping into that marginalization, those people that extremists like to blame others for their problems and for their lack of success or different things like that, that's pretty common. So if you have somebody that's struggling and you, of course, I didn't think about all these things at the time, but this is some of the stuff that comes out when you're processing it and you asked about the psychological aspects of it. And you think back to that time period, absolutely, like those people were targeted and were brought in and the movement offered them someone to blame, you know, and you hear it all the time. Well, we don't have this because of the Jews. We don't have this because of the blacks or things are this way because of this race or that race. And it's not accurate, but that's how they feel. And if you can exploit those things, you see propagandists doing it all the time. Now, what did you think about the rise of the alt-right? When did you first start hearing about the alt-right? I can't pinpoint the exact year that was, but I know in some of the last few years that I was involved in the movement, the alt-right was coming up and it was a big thing. But I personally, I didn't get along with the alt-right. I didn't care for most of the people that were involved in that. I saw a lot of, it was very different. So I was involved with what you would call the, what was called the hard-right. A lot of the people on the alt-right and the hard-right would clash. They'd say it would be over optics and things like that. A lot of times the alt-right people were picking on the optics of the hard-right people. But I think it was a lot deeper than that for a lot of the people on the hard-right. And I'm just speaking from my own opinion at that time. What I saw on the alt-right was a lot of anti-woman behavior, almost like incels, I know they have incels there too, but what they call incels, a lot of incel-like behavior, a lot of women hating and strange, really strange behavior in that sense. And some what the hard-right would have considered hypocrisy where there was people in the alt-right that were Jewish, that were homosexual. And of course I've got no issues with Jews and homosexuals now, but when I was in the movement, they were not accepted. So we on the hard-right saw that as a bit of hypocrisy to allow those people to have anything to do with it. So there was a lot of schisms and disagreements and infighting I guess you could call it. I, that's probably the best way to explain it between those sides. Did you ever struggle with drug or alcohol abuse? Drugs, no. Alcohol, yes. I guess you could say I had been at alcoholic for quite some time, but I kicked that back in early 2008 and stopped drinking then during my time in the movement because it was, I was becoming dependent on it where I needed it to go to sleep at night basically. And so I kicked that habit in 2008, thankfully. Now I can have a drink socially or anything like that afterwards, but now I don't really have much of a taste for it, but it was definitely a problem before, 2007, going back, alcohol was definitely a problem. And what about drugs? Did you dabble on drugs? No. And how did you kick alcohol? Willpower? Just willpower, yeah. And how prevalent were drug and alcohol problems in the national socialist movement? Alcohol was a big problem. I think a lot of the after parties and stuff were centered around drinking. Drugs, not so much. When we found people that were doing drugs or using drugs at events and things like that, people would get beat up, you know, or thrown out of the organization or both. It wasn't tolerated. Now in the last few years where restrictions were loosening up on marijuana and things like that, if we smelled it or something like that, sometimes you just kind of looked the other way, but it was definitely not something that was encouraged. But there was different times where you'd have, and this varies from group to group, because there was different times that we'd be at events. And I remember someone coming up and saying, look, there was dirty needles on the ground near somebody's car and they weren't there earlier. So there was somebody there that was doing drugs and we don't know from what group or anything like that, but things like that would happen over the years. But that varied from group to group. But alcohol, I would say across the boards is a huge, huge problem in the movement. What were the major feuds you got into when you're leading the National Socialist Movement? There would be feuds, even in the hard-right groups, there'd be feuds between the different organizations. There was a few times within the organization over the years, not in quite a few years, but quite a few years back, there was different attempts to take me out of the leadership position or things like that. Going back to the late 90s, maybe the early 2000s, but quite a long time back, there was a few attempts like that and sometimes those got violent. And other times there was schisms between other organizations. These groups on the far-right, hard-right, whatever you wanna call it, in the alt-right, they don't get along even with each other. So even in those instances, and then sometimes you'd have alliances and things where groups would come together and I was always one of those people that was trying to get the different groups to work together. And it would be successful for a little bit and then different schisms would happen and sometimes groups that were friends, all of a sudden became enemies. And in groups like the Ku Klux Klan, it was very common for everybody to call everybody that somebody that was throwing out a fed or an informant. In some cases, it's true, but more often than not, it wasn't true. It was just, somebody didn't get along for whatever reason. It could be somebody said a wrong thing, challenged the leader, stole somebody's girlfriend, stupid things that would cause those schisms and then all of a sudden you'd have a new group form up and with two or three people. And even in the NSM, a number of times over the years, a couple little splits happen like that where a few guys would leave and try to form their own thing. And it was just very common. I mean, you're looking at a hyper-volatile environment in all these different guys that already, guys and gals that don't get along with other races and all this stuff. And then you put them all together and then they wanna fight with each other too. So at the time it was just, it was very frustrating, but hard to process why? Cause you would think, and even from the outside looking in, you would think these groups, they're so marginalized as it is, you would think that they would all back each other up and get along and things like that. And it's not that way. Even if it appears that it is, it's temporary typically or it's for the public's view because they don't get along. So did you get into any major feuds when you're in the National Socialist Movement? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And who are your feuds mainly with and what were they mainly about? Hmm, I don't really like to name anybody specifically, but I can just say typically it was the biggest feuds, I didn't have a lot of feuds actually to come to think of it, not like some of the groups did. One time I was sued by a guy that we had thrown out and I'm not gonna name him either, but I was the organization and I was sued by him and we had to hire a lawyer and we won that court case, but that's not even something that most people know about because any kind of drama or things like that, I tried my best to keep that from the public eye because I felt like it wasn't good for our recruitment efforts. So the organization I was part of didn't do a lot of public feuding, but there was a few times where there was over the years I can think of where a member or several members would be attacked by another organization and there'd be violence and things like that. So there was some violence over the years. Did you notice class conflicts between the hard right and the alt right because many of the leaders of the alt right, such as Richard Spencer, come from an upper class background while the hard right was much more a working class movement? 100%, if you name them, that's one thing. So I'm not naming them, but yeah, he is an example of somebody that is very different than the people on the hard right and a lot of the rhetoric at the time was is somebody that looked down on people and was condescending in that way from that class assist viewpoint. That's not somebody that I ever met when I was in the movement, but I knew about him and there was other people that I knew from other organizations that knew about him and some of the stories that they would tell it, to me it sounded like a classic case of severe narcissism and that whole idea of looking down on the working class, it just never sat right with me because in the organization that I was part of, everybody was working class or poor. So someone coming in, anyone coming and looking down on people like that, that particular individual wouldn't have lasted five minutes in most of the hard right groups because he probably would have been beat up. And I'm not saying that to be mean or to be funny or anything like that, it's just the truth. You don't treat people that way and you don't talk to people that way in those groups, in those hard right groups, respect was huge. And just by the way you handled yourself and the way you talk to others, could mean, I mean, it was a big deal, so. Did you feel a surge of power and energy flipping sea kiles and wearing Nazi regalia and the like? I suppose so, that's something, I think one of the trappings of it that a lot of people liked and I think anytime you're in a group and people are believing the same way and things like that, I suppose in a lot of ways, that's a sense of power. I don't think it's anything I would say is a good thing, but it was one of the, it was something that I think would be fair to say. Yeah, I mean, it gives people an identity and so identity I think would give a sense of power and energy, just being a ruthless cosmopolitan is not particularly inspiring. Right, well, I mean, I think there's better, there's obviously, I think there's better ways that one can find that inspiration and things like that. I mean, I think if we're dividing people and pitting one another against one another, I think uniting under something more positive like America as a whole as a country, I think is more noble and more honorable. You notice any similarities between racist activists and anti-racist activists? That's a great question. I wish more people would ask that one, but yes, absolutely. In fact, when I was in the movement, I never believed that the anti-racist activists or I would always dismiss them as being, not holding up to their beliefs that they were weak and things like that, but that was an inaccurate portrayal. Learning what I've known since leaving the movement and actually working with people that we've helped to get out of extreme far left organizations as well and people, a couple of people actually that were in the far right and in the far left. And believe me, those are some of the most interesting cases to study and these guys are not public. Eric Stryker, a communist and a fascist, but go ahead. Really, really? Okay, I didn't know that. I know the name, but I didn't know that. But yes, there is some, I can think of a couple other ones actually, but not too many are public that have come out and just hearing their stories and comparing them and hearing what they say. There's a lot of similarities actually. The politics are very different, but the social structures and the belief systems as far as how they wanna get to their goals and things like that are very similar. So I look at extremism isn't just the far right. It can also be the far left. It can also be religious. It can be all sorts of things. And I think anyone that's wanting to paint it as just one directional is probably serving their own political agenda and shouldn't be doing this kind of work. Yeah, it seems that activists in general treat people as fodder for a greater cause. And what role has religion played in your life? For me personally, I don't really, I don't really wanna speak too much about religion for me personally. I can say as a general principle, religion is a very good thing for a lot of people as long as once again, you don't take it to the extremes. You're not like becoming a Islamist extremist where you're chopping off somebody's head and joining ISIS or al-Qaeda or something like that. I don't think that's a good trajectory, but religion in a moderate sense or in a sense of change or helping people through their lives, we see it all the time and there's some cases that I know where religion has helped to bring people out of the movement, so I think it's a good thing. For me, I think it's important that people have that. If religion helps them in their lives, I think it's a really good thing. I take it by what you're saying that you have not been religious, but you recognize when you're in the national socialist movement that that was a way in for some people. I'm talking about even being out. I mean, yes, when I was in the movement, we utilized religion in a lot of ways because in the group that I was in, about 40, 45% were heathen, pagan, and about 40, 45% were Christian of some denomination or sort, and then 5%, 10% other religions as well. So it wasn't a main focus, but for some people it was, and some organizations are based all around religion, but even being out, I'm saying that religion can be important for people, and I'm not saying it's not important for me, it's just something that I don't really talk about publicly because I work again with Christians, pagans, and Jews and Muslims and all kinds of different religious backgrounds, and I think they're all equally as important as one another, so. Hitler would send the SS to church before elections to try to show that they were completely compatible with Christianity, but it's interesting in the national socialists and white nationalist movements, they're all led intellectually and usually practically by atheists, but most of the adherents have a connection to Christianity, so there's quite a dichotomy between the atheist leaders and the rank and file who disproportionately tend to be Christian. Well, I guess I really hadn't thought about it, but it depends, again, because some of the leaders were very religious and others are not at all, so yeah. And did you end up having any connection or any knowledge, personal connection with any of the people who committed murder in the name of white nationalism? Unfortunately, yes, in some sense, yes. I had met the individual that did the mass shooting in California in the Jewish school, and I actually met one of the children that was shot in that, his name's Josh Stepakov, and he was shot twice in that attack as a child. He's grown up now and he's an activist and he was on our podcast, if anybody wants to check it out, it's an incredible story, but unfortunately, I had met the man that had done that and other people that had done terrible things as well, yeah. So in your final years in national socialism, you were building your movement as a white civil rights movement, but what about a genuine white civil rights movement? Do you think America would benefit from a genuine white civil rights movement? Well, yeah, the last couple of years that I was involved, I was building the National Socialist Movement as a white civil rights organization, which I refer to that time now as trying to put lipstick on a pig. You can put lipstick on a pig, but the pig's not gonna be any prettier, and that's what I was trying to do and to put some background on that. I was de-radicalizing at the time and I didn't realize it, so that was my way of trying to rationalize what I was doing by saying, you know, I wanna do something good, like let's not make this about hate, let's make it a white civil rights group, of course that didn't work, but I'm glad that I'm out, but that was my thought process at that time was, let's make this so it's not quite as hateful, but you can't make a group like the National Socialist Movement into something like that, but to answer your question, I think all people have the right to be proud of their ethnic group, their heritage, and things like that. Would I be part of something like that today? No, because I was part of something that was just focusing on white people before, and I don't feel like that's a good thing, and I think it divides people. So, but you know, would I go to like a German Fest for my German heritage or something? Sure, of course, there's nothing wrong with that, but one thing I now borrow this phrase from Daryl Davis, when you talk about white pride, black pride, brown pride, whatever, Daryl has a statement where he says, you know, it's okay to have all that pride, but shouldn't you be, when you have pride in something, it should be something you've accomplished. So whether it's like, you know, you got your doctorate, or you won the marathon, or you know, you're the star basketball player, or whatever it is that you do, that you've had this accomplishment, that's something to be proud of. We can't help how we were born, whether we were born white, black, brown, yellow, whatever. We can't, none of us can help that. It was our parents' choice, you know, so to have pride in that is, that's not something that we've accomplished. That's like your life's greatest achievement, you got work to do, you know, that's kind of, I like the phrase, because I think that's an interesting way of looking at it. Like, it's not something you've accomplished. So sure, you can have it, it's not necessarily harmful, but it only becomes harmful when you, when it becomes hatred, or when you start holding other people down, and it's not just white people that can do that, that can be applied across the boards, and that's one thing that I'll say that is probably different than others, is that that's not just something that white people will do that can harm others, other people can do it too, all people can be harmful in that manner. What did you find were the most effective ways to recruit people into national socialism? All forms of recruitment were utilized in those years, everything from music to video games, to passing out flyers to podcasts, to video messaging. I think some of the more powerful, you know, that's a question I've been asked that a lot of times before, and I'm kind of hesitant to like go into the details of what tactics work the best, because there's people that are in the movement that watch things, that when we speak about things like this, those of us that got out, and I don't really wanna give them the exact tactics that I utilized in those years to help them grow. So I don't wanna get into the details of it, but I can say that to answer your question the best I can without giving away those details was that pretty much every method that you can imagine was utilized in the propaganda toolbox. Well, I would think that the most effective way to recruit would be to tap into people's feelings of victimization. Like everybody can find reasons to feel victimized, but for some people, their victimization is of great importance. And if you can tap into ways that you persuade them that they're being discriminated against, that they're being shafted, that they're being disrespected, I would think that would be a powerful way to recruit for any nationalist type movement. For sure, for sure. A lot of the messaging does have to do with that. It's always, there's always a scapegoat, there's always somebody to blame and those anti-Semitic tropes and things like that that the movement uses from going way back. I mean, that's historically that tactic has been used heavily to place the blame on somebody. Everybody's looking for an answer. And if you have provide a scapegoat, unfortunately, that's yes. Were you able to maintain friends during all these dramatic life changes that you've made from normal kid to leader of the National Socialist Movement to now an activist to de-radicalize people in all these whipsaw of changes, have you been able to maintain friends? You mean like keep some of the same friends from way back? Yeah. Surprisingly, yes. In a few cases, I mean, obviously when I left the movement, I gave up a lot of what I had considered to be friends or they gave up me in that sense, you know, because a lot of people when they leave, it's okay to leave in those sense, in that sense. But when you speak out against it, they don't like that. They view that as betraying the cause in a lot of ways. And even though I don't attack the individuals or say bad things about that, unless you've done something really horrible, of course, and I would condemn that 100%, but I try not to condemn the individuals, but rather condemn the ideology and condemn things that are harmful to humanity. So I think in some sense, I was able to maintain some friendships through those actions because I'm not vilifying others. But for the most part, a lot of that has changed, you know, a lot of you don't maintain that and even going way, way, way back, you know, like before I joined the movement, there was a number of people that have reached out from back then that talk with me now. So that's pretty cool too. So I've gained a whole lot of new friends and maintained a few from before. And a lot of people walked out with me when I left. So and continue to walk out till this day. So I'm reconnecting with a lot of people that I did know back in the movement that are out. And then there's some when I got out that contacted and said, hey, you know, I've been out for this long. And at the time, a lot of times when people quit, they wouldn't tell us, they would just disappear. So reconnecting with some of those folks and finding out that they had their own stories and reasons why they got out. And it just took me longer to catch up to them in that sense. Now, I've seen you say in some of your public testimony and in various interviews that anyone could be recruited to extremism. And I'd argue with you that only those with nothing to lose can be recruited. Someone who's happily married with kids in a thriving career is not gonna go join in an extremist movement. Well, and we did talk about that a little bit. And for the most part, you know, when I say anybody could be recruited, I guess I wasn't thinking about like somebody that's wealthy or doing well, because there, like I said, there was so few of those, almost none involved in the group that I was a part of or in the hard right. So it's not a hundred percent accurate to say anybody could be recruited, but a lot of people could be recruited into these type of movements. It doesn't just fit inside a box. It's not that easy to say, well, it's just this group of people. But yes, you're right in the sense of people with nothing to lose. And people that are looking for answers and that are really struggling are much, much easier to recruit into a extremist movement because of that whole not having anything really to lose or feeling like, you know, they want more for a lot of it. I say this too, but a lot of it comes from a good place. It's not a good thing, but it's coming from a good place. Like, hey, I'm gonna join this. I'm gonna do this because I want a better future for my children. So that's the way we reach a lot of them, you know, to get out as well, because being involved and being active in this stuff is not good for your children. It's not good for your family. And most of the families and people that are involved in have suffered greatly for being involved in this stuff. How much blame do you give yourself for recruiting people? And I'm just gonna give you an opinion to stimulate discussion. I wouldn't give you more than 5% blame for any one individual who gets recruited because people have to take responsibility for making that decision on their own. You're not taking people or otherwise headed to medical school. And, you know, messing with their mind and sending them international socialism, you are meeting a need that people have to feel important and to feel alive. So I would offer to you that I wouldn't give you more than 5% blame, quote unquote, for recruiting because people have to come for themselves, from themselves. Any thoughts? Well, obviously, you know, I mean, I do feel a lot of guilt for the time that I spent there and for the people that I recruited and, you know, that's, I think that's part of the process. And it is something that I'm ashamed of, you know, to this day. And it's something that, you know, the work I do now, I feel like helps, excuse me, I feel like it helps in some way repair some of the damage from the past, but you're also right in the sense that there is personal responsibility. I didn't make anybody do any of these things. You know, so I also understand that aspect of it. And everybody has to take personal responsibility. That's the first, I mean, as far as being a human being, you know, we all have choices in life and things like that. Nobody was holding a gun to me to join. No one was holding a gun to anybody else to join. So, you know, you have to take personal responsibility as well in that sense. But I think in some ways it's like remembering, remembering stuff from the past so you don't repeat it and learning from your mistakes is important, but also living and carrying all the guilt and shame and things like that. And I know people that do that and it's not good for their mental health. And it's been folks from the African-American community and from the Jewish community specifically that have early on when I started speaking out in 2019, some of those individuals had told me, they said, you need to stop beating yourself up over the past, you know, and it's not good for your mental health. I said, I'm not doing that. No, I'm not. Yes, you are, Jeff. We see it. You know, you are doing it, stop. What you're doing now is what matters. Focus on that. I don't see the person you were before. I see the person that you are now. So, and I think there's a lot of wisdom in that in a lot of ways because as I said, I do know other formers that carry that so strongly that you see it affects them in a really negative way and it knocks their own self-esteem down and their mission. And I don't think it's healthy. I think you have to remember that and you have to process it and work through it. But if you carry that in the front and that's your motivation, it's doomed. It's not a good healthy way to live. How do you feel now, as opposed to when you're the leader of the National Socialist Movement? Are you more relaxed? Are you more at ease in life? Are you sleep better? Are you happier? Or do you miss the excitement in the adrenaline rush? How do you feel now, as opposed to when you were the leader of the NSM? Well, when I was the leader of the NSM, it was like every day you're at war with the world. So I got used to all those years being in this really high stress environment and being able to process things in a way that I don't recommend it. Most people can't process the kind of stress and high stress environment like that. And so I guess you could say in a sense that's a skill set that I learned there. I don't know if it's good or not, but that particular skill set, what I did being involved was not good, but I'm saying learning how to operate under high stress can be a good thing in some ways. Trying to find the silver lining here as we're having the conversation. But now life is much better. Of course, there are still stresses with speaking out and doing this work and then revisiting a lot of these things is really hard on people. But knowing that you're doing something good and noble and that you're helping others, for me that helps with the motivation. And I put all that energy that I put into what I did in the past, I put into the work that I'm doing now. So the lack of motivation, I have lots of motivation. I've just flipped that skill set, used reverse osmosis in a sense and am utilizing that skill set for good now. So I'm happy, I'm definitely happy. It's not as stressful now as it was before. And I would highly recommend it to anybody that's thinking about getting out. There's a better life out there for everyone if they're just willing to grasp it. And it takes courage, it takes strength and it takes being willing to change and do the work. It's not, you can't just snap your fingers and make it happen, but it's well worth it. And did you have to learn social skills in your journey the last two and a half years out of the movement? Did you have to learn to read social cues or did you already have that down? I'm not sure I know what you mean by that. I think I... Social skills, social cues. So for example, you were the opposite of social skills when you were a leader of the National Socialist Movement. You were active in something that was regarded as highly socially undesirable. So you must have had to put on a lot of body armor and psychic armor to do what you were doing because you were going against all social cues. You weren't getting positive social cues from society for what you were doing. So you spent 25 plus years going against society. Now the last two and a half years, were you able to just effortlessly switch to being a pro-social person who was reading social cues and reacting appropriately with social skills or did you have to learn? Oh, I see what you mean now. Yeah, being in the movement and the best way I can explain this is in a lot of ways you shut down your like emotions because it's considered, and this is like all unwritten rules. Like nobody tells you this stuff. Nobody's writing this down. You're not reading it anywhere. But when you're in the movement, you just don't show emotions, at least in the movement that I was involved in. You didn't show emotions. You weren't emotional. And for example, I was in an event one time and was in a meeting, excuse me, I was in a meeting and somebody came in the door and they're like, sir, I need you right now. Like it's an emergency. And so I go outside with the guy. I'm like, because his face was all white, like pale and he was very, very nervous. And I was like, what in the world is going on? Why are you interrupting me when I'm sitting here in a meeting? And he says, you got to come with this other individual, another not going to name anybody, but this other group member is crying. And I don't know what to do. You know, I said, what? Like you just didn't, you didn't encounter that. And, you know, he'd gotten into some kind of argument with one of the other guys and was crying and this guy panicked and like ran to come and get me. And I'm like, I don't want to deal with this. I don't know what to do with a crying man. You know, so like that, you know, it's not funny, but like that's one example of that. And I can even, I can explain another one where a family member that I was close to passed away and my kid's mother had said, the kids, the kids see you as human or see you as, it's the first time they've ever seen you show emotion. And I remember getting a little agitated by that at the time. Like, what do you mean? You know, like, they don't see me as a human being or something like, what do you mean I don't show emotion? Like dad's human, you know, it wasn't those exact words, but it was something like that. And it was, and that caused me to really, really reflect and think about that because it's not like I indoctrinated my kids into this movement, but how I fathered them, how I raised them, there was no emotion shown for in a lot of ways for a very, very long time there. And that's something that is tough to reckon with because they didn't see that. So how, so that, I think that's where you're going with the question is that those social skills in that sense are very, are very, guarded or like you said, it's like having an armor on. So you don't show those emotions because those emotions were considered like weakness, you know, like the guy that broke down and was crying, like people could have mocked him or something like that, but instead they just panicked. They didn't even know how to react to that. So that's, I mean, it's just a little peek into that world, but that's something that definitely having to learn that and I do see that even now showing emotions and things like that, it can be difficult because you closed those doors for so long, but one person had mentioned this to me and I thought it was very interesting. And she said, you know, I really like working with formers because with a lot of the former extremists, she says, it seems like you guys have so much more love and compassion and empathy and stuff like that now than most or a lot of people in society. And I thought, whoa, what do you mean by that? You know, like it took me a minute. And then, and then it was like, well, Jeff, I think it was because you guys shut off those emotions for so long. Now when you experience them, you know, you love stronger, you have more compassion, you have more empathy for others. And I think that there is probably a lot of truth to that because I do feel a lot more things now than in those days when all that stuff was shut off in a lot of ways. Yeah. Okay, Jeff, thank you for the interview. Any final words today? No, thanks for having me. And if any of the listeners want to reach out to jeffscoop.com or for Beyond Barriers, beyondbarriersusa.org, reach out to us, check out the podcast, check out all the stuff that we're doing and anyone can change their lives. And we're...