 Welcome to our school librarianship and the California Teacher Librarian Services Credential Q&A with our great advisors. Today's workshop is part of the Pathways series, introducing the different MLIS career pathways where you'll get an insight perspective from instructors who have worked in specific fields. Today, we'll be talking about skill sets that prepare students for work in K through 12 school libraries. Featured on our welcome slide is an alumni, Suzanne, who works as a teacher librarian at West Hills High School in the Grossmont Union High School District in Southern California. She was the 2016 recipient of the California School Library Association's Leadership for Diversity Scholarship and the Blanche-Woll Spectrum Scholarship among many other awards. She's a content contributor for School Library Connection. So let's get started with our agenda. Today's agenda consists of an overview of the School Librarianship Pathway, the California Teacher Librarian Services Credential, which courses students can consider, how students use the skill set, and then we'll meet faculty with expertise in this area who have made themselves available to answer your questions. So what does a school librarian or teacher librarian do? School librarian roles are diverse and can include an ombre of roles such as being interested in and comfortable with the company of children and teenagers in schools, being an advocate for students and libraries, and be willing to accept responsibility for the information needs of students, and be a lifelong learner and model the practice of lifelong learning by embracing technology and information resources. Here's also a list of core theory and knowledge that students pursuing the pathway would benefit from in building a career in this area, such as key concepts relating to student outcomes, including service, marketing, budgeting, measurement, and evaluation, along with the ability to plan strategically, balance resources, and implement practical tactics to achieve educational goals. So in California, the Teacher Librarian Credential is a second credential program for students who must have a California Clear Professional Teaching Credential before applying for the California Teacher Librarian Services Credential with the State of California Commission on Teacher Credentialing. A lot of Cs. Students and other states do not need to pursue the California Teacher Librarian Services Credential. The 31-unit Teacher Librarian Program course work meets the requirements for the California Teacher Librarian Services Credential for public school positions that require the services credential. If you live in a state other than California, please check to see if the SJSU's Teacher Librarian Credential course work is approved by your home state before undertaking this program. And under the academic section of the Teacher Librarian Credential Program pages, the school has a list of the 31 required units necessary to earn the California Teacher Librarian Services Credential. In addition, those who want to earn the full 43-unit MLIS degree must take the Info 289e portfolio course, which is three units, and then nine units of electives. Recommended topics are also included on this page. Now, I'll turn it over to Sheila. Thank you so much, Taryn. So careers in school librarianship can vary from small organizations with a single Teacher Librarian to complex organizations embedded within larger institutions, providing services to thousands of students. Typical positions are titled Librarian, Media Specialist, District Librarian, Library Media Specialist, Teacher Librarian, or Library Media Teacher. A lot of different versions for this job title. Now, if you choose to do so, school librarians holding the MLIS degree have additional career options outside of K-12, especially in youth services at public libraries. And as the slide says, about 14% of our exit survey respondents were already working in schools as teachers or teacher librarians at the time of their graduation exit survey. So research and reference skills, instruction and technology skills such as soft skills are also transferable to many other information settings, including academic and public libraries. Now, if you're considering this career pathway in choosing your iSchool elective classes, it would be a good idea to familiarize yourself with the American Association of School Librarian or AASL's National School Library Standards, which are the framework for professionals working within K-12 School Library Media Centers. Now in a moment, we'll have our faculty who teach classes that are part of this pathway presenting their tips and recommendations for students, but we wanted to remind folks to tap into the Community Profile series on our website. And our alumni career spotlights and LinkedIn searching are also fantastic ways to find more teacher librarian contacts that you could reach out to for informational interviews about this career pathway. Now, we've talked about this strategy in our previous workshops, but even early on in your program, you can create an account on EdJoin or other job search sites such as Bay Area Independent School Librarians so that you could keep your eye on the types of positions in school library settings that are available in your own area. Setting up a save folder with job descriptions to keep track of your knowledge, skills, and abilities listed in your targeted positions can help you to make progress towards your own goals. And now you'll have the opportunity to hear tips and recommendations from the experts on this MLIS career pathway. iSchool's public school librarian pathway advisors are here. They will introduce themselves and let you know a little bit about their background in this pathway, the skills and topics that they feel are especially timely as well as a little bit about the courses that they teach from this pathway. Then we will be opening it up for a Q&A for all of our panelists at the end. And so I will be passing off the microphone to Jonathan Hunt. Thank you for being with us. Thank you. I am an adjunct instructor and I currently teach a pair of elective classes for the MLIS. Those are classes in middle grade literature or materials for early adolescents as well as fantasy literature. In addition to that, I coordinate the teacher librarian program here at San Jose State. I started doing that this past semester. So this is my second semester of doing that. I also graduated from San Jose State in 2007. And I was previously an adjunct instructor here from 2010 to 2015. And that's my introduction unless I'm supposed to include more. I'm sure that the participants will have lots of questions for you as we get underway. But thank you so much for introducing. I should probably, I think I forgot. I'm also the coordinator of library media services at the San Diego County Office of Education. And in that role, I support the 42 local school districts here in the county of San Diego. Prior to coming here, and I've been here for 10 years, I worked as a school librarian for grades kindergarten through 12th grade with the bulk of that being concentrated at elementary school, which is kind of like an extinct breed of school librarian. I had very little experience at the high school level and a little bit at the middle school. Most of it was concentrated in elementary. So I'm sorry, I should have included that background before. Thank you so much for the additional details. All right. I think next on our roster is Dr. Mary Ann Harlan. So welcome. Thank you. I'm sorry for any background noise and just to say that upfront. So I am Dr. Mary Ann Harlan. I have been at the high school since 2010. I have, I teach only school library focused courses. So I teach the school library media centers course, which is a required course for the credential and is focused on management of school libraries. I also teach info 237, which is the school library media materials class also required for the credential. It focuses on literacies and materials to support multi literacies and diverse students and organization systems. And I also oversee the school library field work or the practicum that all school library credential candidates have to participate in. And so, yeah, that's what I do. I have worked as a middle school and high school teacher librarian, although that was quite some time ago at this point in time in my life. And I think that's it. Would you like to tell the folks listening a little bit about your research, Dr. Harlan? So I have two different research strands. The first research, and I haven't really returned to this in a long time was what I did my dissertation on, which is information practices of youth content creators. So kids that create and share content online remarkably, some of those content creators have found themselves in the middle of a lawsuit over open AI, which has been interesting because they were deviant art users and my most recent research has been on representations of girlhood in youth literature and how we learn about being a girl through reading. Oh, fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing that. Okay. This brings us to our third panelist, Dr. David Lurcher. Please go ahead and introduce yourself to the listeners and let us know a little bit about your classes. Sure. You can hear me. I assume I'm the eldest member of the faculty at the high school. And so I've been teaching for over 25 years in San Jose State and I teach information 250, which is instructional design. And in that course, you learn how to be a teaching partner as a librarian and a classroom teacher and create deep learning experiences. And the final product of that is a portfolio, just like a mini credential. And that is as a digital learning leader. And so you can appeal to administrators, boards and demonstrate not only the theoretical background that you bring to the table, but you also can give examples, three or four examples of great learning experiences that you have developed with a partner so that you know how to really extend, push the library into the center of the curriculum of the school. And I get people in that class who are in academic tracts, etc. And I also get public librarians who are interested in learning how to teach. And so we do a lot of those two roles in the various types of libraries are a bit different, but not that much from children and teens. So that course, and then I also teach Information 266, which is collection and connection development. And in that class, I get all types of librarians, academic, public, special, school, etc. And so let's say I have 30 students, which I do this semester, each one is studying the collection of a particular library. And in our workshops, we not only study the library you are studying, but you study your type of library, the collection in all academic libraries or school libraries. And then you get experience combining all that with all types of libraries. So it's like we're doing 30 case studies and putting them all together from all types of libraries. It's a fabulous experience that gives you breadth across not just one library that you get to know particularly, but across that. And so anyway, those are the two courses that I teach in the program. Thank you. Dr. Lurcher, would you like to tell the attendees a little bit about your background as a publisher and an author of materials for teacher librarians? Yes, I've been at this profession for many years. I was a, I'm a past president of the American Association of School Librarians. I've written over a hundred books, almost all directed toward school librarians in one way or another. I've been a major developer and advocate of the concept of the School Library Learning Commons, which is a very different model than the traditional library of a collection of materials that circulates. So in the Learning Commons, you can not only consume knowledge, but you can create knowledge. And the whole creation of knowledge is really important as we think of design thinking, invention. And so I've written books on four teenagers of any age called Create by Design, which targets how to learn in this 21st century environment. And so the whole concept of Learning Commons has gone viral in Canada. And it struggles a bit in the U.S. in Canada. There was no traditional, really widespread library program. So people just began from scratch and they created a Learning Commons. But in the U.S., it's been a marvelous experience to watch librarians and the physical and virtual space of a library become the center and heart of the school where just, in fact, we just had a year-long project. Where we interviewed 25 world-class school librarians across the U.S. and Canada. And these are the kind of people who really have opened their doors to just major, major learning opportunities. As they partner with the entire faculty and with their boards and communities. So if you want to see that, you go to a live library.info and you can see the kind of people that we want in this profession. It is a tremendous thing. And we also have an international conference coming up on leap year day. And I'm not sure we can probably find the registration for that to put it in the chat somewhere. Perhaps Marianne, maybe you could find that and put it in the chat. But that is going to have a stellar program of over 20 presentations, I think, keynote addresses that talk about the future, leap into the future of school libraries. And so that would be something that any of you that are thinking about becoming a teacher librarian, whether in California or anywhere else. That would be a wonderful conference to attend. And you'll be able to see all of those not just on leap year day, but many months after that. So the you'll be able to and many of the present presentations are just 20 minutes. And so it's kind of, you can just, you can get a focus on really wonderful practices. So that's just a few opportunities won't bore you with any other kind of things that are going on. Thank you, Dr. Lurcher. Great content. We're excited for the conference as well. Okay, now so we're at the point where we're going to open up our Q&A, which you can probably access from the bottom strip at the bottom of your browser panel. And go ahead and let us know what questions do you have for the panel today? I don't see any open questions yet. Well, let's see if any start to roll in. I'm going to open the attendee chat just in case. All right, we have one question come through and I'll read it. It states that last year at the I school symposium for the current state of school libraries in California, the presenters mentioned that our state ranks nearly last in the nation for hiring school librarians. I invited my superintendent and administrators to attend and shared the recording with them. Sadly, my district still has no teacher librarian positions. What can we do to change this so candidates don't have to move to another state or take jobs in other fields? Is there anyone on our panelists who would like to start out answering this one? Yeah, you know, I think we all probably have really strong opinions on that. I could certainly take the lead. I think that is a growing problem that we have in our state. And as we've seen school library programs deteriorate gradually over decades and decades of chronic underfunding. It has robbed the people in positions of educational leadership with experience with successful school library programs. And so they don't understand the value and the importance of it because they haven't had those experiences at any stage of their career. They'd never worked with a teacher librarian as a teacher, you know, or as an administrator or as a district leader. And so I think that really requires a certain kind of advocacy and a certain kind of outreach to them. And I think it's a challenge that we're all grappling with. I currently know of efforts at the district level. Certainly we talk about it a lot amongst, you know, the various county offices of education. And I know that we're also trying to do things at the state level. It is a perpetual foreign on our sides. Thank you. Are there any other panelists who'd like to add to what Jonathan Hunt described for the for the attendees? Hi, I just want to go ahead. Marianne, you first. I just wanted to chime in to point out that this is a very much it's a course learning objective and it's very much what we focus on. And 233 is both the building relationship portion of advocacy and also like identifying who you need to build those relationships with who your allies are, who your targets are. And so there's a very, there's a whole unit, but there's a very big chunk of 233 that discusses out, which is the school library media programs class because that is a core component of what your job is going to be. And it'll be a core component of what your job is going to be, even if you're a classroom teacher, sort of trying to kind of lean into getting a position. Right. You're going to have to do a lot of advocacy, but even as a teacher librarian or school library and you will. And I also want to mention that it's not just California. So even if you're from out of state and you're considering that school library and role and position advocacy is going to be a core job responsibility. Well, on the international conference on leap your day, one of the two of the presentations are by superintendents. So if you wanted to our question was you got your superintendents to look at, you know, something. The first one is my buddy Barry from Eminence, Kentucky, a rural, a very rural K 12 school school. And he created a net hub, which is a real, what I call the library learning commons and he has two full time professional librarians on staff and he is a motivational speaker. And he is tremendous. I mean, talk about real a humor and he is an advocate of the two librarians that have really made his school famous. And he was in declining enrollment in his district like every other Kentucky school. Now he's overwhelmed with students because parents all over anywhere an hour in try to get their kids into this school. That's how wonderful it is. The other superintendent that that talks about is on the national was on a major national committee and and gives a very excellent presentation to superintendents about why you need to to have a school school librarians, but not the traditional school librarian. That's really important. You need a real leader and that's why both the alive library dot info site, you know, with with those 25 things and the national conference international conferences on leap your day and beyond. It is really important in an advocacy situation. There's plenty to show people that are just tremendous advocacy pieces for the existence and support of the school library learning commons. Thank you. Jonathan Hunt, did you have anything to add or to the panelists discussion. No, no, I let off. But I do want to mention that I did drop a link to the to the leap into the future conference that Dr. Lercher mentioned. So if you open that thumbnail image, then you'll get information about a QR code and and the dates and times for the the conference that he just referenced. Thank you, Jonathan very much. Very good. Okay, we'll go. We'll move to the next is when is the earliest that we can complete our field experience. I guess over to you. Dr. Harlan. Yeah, that's that would be me field experience is a culminating activity. And so you really need to have the majority of the required classes completed. They're listed as prerequisites. However, I usually let you do some co enrollment. So if you have 1 or 2 courses left while you're taking your field work, that is okay. But I don't recommend that there any of the core classes like 250 233 237. Thank you. Okay, so we'll go to the next question. Could you clarify the process to become a teacher librarian in California? I would like to apply to the school's MLIS program with the to credential built in. But can I even do that if I do not have a teaching credential yet? I can answer that one and then I think Mary Ann can add information if I if I leave anything out. So in the state of California, you need a you need a teaching credential. First, before you can get a secondary credential, such as the teacher librarian credential. So that would that currently there are four credentials that you would need that you could have in order to get your teacher librarian credential. You can have a multiple subject credential, which typically lets you teach elementary school, a secondary subject credential, which is, you know, middle and high school, a special education credential, which would be good K 12 or designated subjects. You could have a secondary credential, which is a career technical education credential, which allows people that have like work experience to transition over to teach career technical education classes in a high school setting typically. So you really, I think the most the recommended pathway and the traditional pathway that most people follow would be to get one of those four credentials first before going through this pathway. I think it would be possible if you wanted to go through the pathway and take all the teacher librarian courses and then take your chances with getting the first credential afterwards. Then you could apply for your first credential and then apply for the teacher librarian credential. I think the risks that you run is that the program requirement change on you, which is unlikely, but certainly possible. So do you have anything to add, Marianne? I would just say, yes, all of that is absolutely true. You're not prevented from applying for the program, but it is highly recommended that you have that credential first before. So you, you move through that because you need it. The CT is usually what I recommend for people who I find in, you know, who are interested in that position and don't really want to go through the classroom teaching portion of it. The other reason why I think it's highly recommended that you get that credential first is that it's assumed that you have it. So there's knowledge that is embedded in those classes that we assume you have because we assume that you have that teaching credential. So there's a bit stronger of a learning curve and some things that you might not have access to as terms of prior knowledge if you haven't gotten the previous credential. Thank you. Dr. Harlan, we had a follow up question in the chat about the 295 experience. So I'll read that to you if you can respond. Mary's asking, I'm looking to do fieldwork 295 in spring of 2025. If we can find a classified library position in school, would that work as a placement if we have the proper supervisor? It's like all things. It's not ideal. However, it is workable. It is something that we can do work with as long as you have a certificated mentor that can work with you and oversee your work. Then even if they're not physically on site with you, we have done that in the past. So yes, we can do that, but it's not ideal. Very good. It sounds like there's a lot of case by case management in the program. For fieldwork, 100%, there is a lot of case by case management. It is an independent study course and I have to, because of the lack of school librarians in California and because of the situations that we, like the requirements around the course, we do work very much on an individual case by case basis. And I highly recommend that this semester before you reach out to me or even now if you want to reach out to me so that we can talk about the ways to set up your fieldwork so that you can be the most successful. Fantastic. Megan had a follow up question, but I think we've already answered most of those questions in the meantime. So if not, Megan, please type again. We're going to go to the next one. Student teaching questions. And so many elementary schools do not have librarians. What are some suggestions for that portion of the student teaching requirement, especially for the future secondary teaching librarian? Do we have anything else to add on that specifically? We do a lot of sort of sometimes virtual projects, sometimes training for the clerks that are running. The school like elementary school librarians, so like sometimes we'll set up like you will run a professional development for them. Sometimes we have you create a just in time webinar instructions for a certain grade level that they can deploy to their teachers when they're doing like, I don't know, California admissions or something like that. So we do some of those types of projects. You know, collection management projects at the elementary level. Again, it's very case by case. I do the best I can. I recognize like Verity. I know. I know because she's been in my courses. It has a teaching is teaching. So like we have to think about what her school day looks like and where she can find time to get into different environments. So we take that into consideration as much as possible. Okay. Excellent. Thank you so much. Okay. Can you recommend any teaching credentialing programs? Anyone on the panelists panel? You know, I can't really recommend a particular one. I know that a lot of students are drawn to our program because we're entirely online and asynchronous. And I will say that some people have asked about San Jose State's program hoping and expecting the education school of education to operate in the same way. And it's not it's not online. It's not asynchronous. There may be programs throughout the state that operate that way or at least in the hybrid format because you're going to have to have student teaching. But currently I know the school of education is very much an in-person kind of a program. Most CSUs will have a college of ed credential program. So take a look to see if you have a CSU next to you that would have that. Cal Poly Humboldt has an online option for the credential. I'm not recommending it. I'm just mentioning it. Okay. Thank you, folks. Okay. We'll go to the next one. I'm very was sharing with everyone a link to the Ventura County Office of Ed's program. So thank you very much. How do you get the teaching credential? Do you need to take classes or are there tests that you can take? I'm assuming this is for the classroom teaching credential. I'm going to let Jonathan manage the California answer to that question, but I am going to give you just in case we have people from out of state. This is a state by state answer. So different states have different requirements for the classroom teaching credential and those requirements actually are shifting quite a bit. So if you're out of state, you need to take that into account that each state is going to have education as local. So each state is going to have different requirements. And in California, it's not possible to test out of the teaching credential. So there's basically a recommended sequence of courses. I think it takes about a year to complete it. Yeah. And just to respond to the follow up to the person that recommend that link to the Ventura County Office of Ed website. Those types of credentials are often handled by county offices of education. And in some cases, there are large school districts that sponsor those credential programs. And I will drop a link into the chat so that you can have another fuller list. Great. Thank you so much. Do we have any other questions from our attendees? Would either Jonathan or Dr. Harlan like to talk about the emergency credential process a little bit for folks that have maybe found a position and they're on an emergency credential? Sure. So if you're able to secure a position, then your district is in charge of the paperwork to get you that emergency credential. And you were responsible to enroll in a program and during that first year to take at least six credits so that in a year's time, you're eligible to renew that. Once you are ready to renew that, there's a form to fill out online and you have to send that to the School of Education rather than us. You will probably forget that by that time and you'll email me and I'll remind you of the process, which is fine. There was one more thing I was going to say about the emergency credential and I forgot. That is okay. Would you like to tell folks how we track our teacher librarian credential candidates within Canvas and let them know a little bit about that? Oh, okay. Sure. So if you are interested, if you even think this might be a career path for you, then you can reach out to me via email and I will add you to the teacher librarian credential advising site, which is a repository for a lot of information. So, for example, if you have any questions about 295 fieldwork class, for example, there is a lot of information there that you could read through before and that may well answer any questions that you might have before you reach out to Dr. Harlan. So again, it's a Canvas site. You just email me and then I would add you to that advising site. Very good. Thank you. Okay. Well, we have a few more minutes. If any of our attendees have any other burning questions, tips, suggestions they're looking for from our panelists, please do. You can either use the chat or you can use the Q&A feature of our webinar. How about we do closing thoughts? If there's any closing thoughts or tips that any of our panelists would like to share with our guests today, feel free. Sure. My closing thought is I think this is a wonderful profession. I think that it is really exciting and really engaging. There are definitely some challenges. One of the things that I would suggest is that you probably research schools and districts in your area that employ teacher librarians so you have an idea of where you might be able to work. Most of the positions in California are concentrated in middle and high school. So if you are hoping to work in an elementary school as a teacher librarian, for example, you would want to be aware of schools and districts in your area that might provide that employment opportunity. Thank you. I mean, I would echo Professor Hunt's sort of, it's a great profession. It was my favorite job of all time. And I sometimes still miss working at the school level with kids and being a librarian. So it's pretty much I would recommend it from that angle. It does have its frustrations and you do need to be prepared for what education looks like. One thing we didn't discuss here and I do want to make a point about it is that independent schools and base, thank for mentioning base cells, which is the independent school group in the Bay Area. Independent schools will often require only a master's in library and information science and not the teaching credential. There are fewer jobs because there are fewer independent schools in that particular realm, but if that is something that you are interested in, you could maybe look into that as well. And if you are open to international schools, you also typically only need a master's in library and information science, although I highly recommend that you take some of the required courses for the school librarianship. But those are ways that you can work in a school library and not have to go through the process of getting a classroom credential. Independent schools and international schools. And also private schools. What about Marianne? What about charter schools? I mean, typically charter schools don't have school libraries like they're the ones who probably have the least amount of people in school libraries. Although we have had a few students who are working in school library or in charter schools and sort of doing school library and work. I think you probably would not need the same type of leveling of credentialing as if you were going to work in a public school. Depending on the charter and private schools, independent schools. It's the same same same zone. If I if I may jump in and recommend another, if you're like, oh, I really want to I really would love to be like a high school librarian, but I really don't want to go back for the credential. Another area that you might consider is a community college librarian, because a lot of community colleges serve older high school students as well as those younger college students. I don't. I don't there's a there's an element of a high school library that's absent from a community college library. I feel like they don't really have that, you know, that motivation to read like young adult literature and things. So there's some it's not like a perfect, you know, alternative. I feel like but it's definitely one to think about if you really are attracted to that that high school age group and you really don't want the hassle of getting a credential that might be something to at least explore. Okay, great tip. Dr. Dr. Lurcher, do you have parting thoughts? We do have one more question that came in, but if you had some parting thoughts for the session today. Well, I just, of course, I've been involved in this profession for so many years and it is the most exciting job, I think, in the profession if you love kids and if you love teens. And and with with that and you like you like to technology and you're you're willing to tackle this whole AI business and you can be a leader in your school and community and, you know, people appreciate really great leaders that that spend their time in as a as a teacher librarian in public school and boy, do the kids of today need you and they really need you. So that's my parting thought. Awesome. Thank you so much. Okay, well, we'll hit the last question in our Q and a and it is. Do you have tips on how can begin to advocate to re Institute or re establish school library programs and districts that have lost them, or have never had them. Well, I'll just repeat. You've got a live library info. You got 25 interviews there. You've got the leap year leap into the future school libraries you're going to have 25. Really great presentation. So you've got lots of advocacy kinds of materials just in those two sites that will and that will and bring somebody to those conferences and even after you know, go through them yourself and and pick two or three that you really like and and spread them around your district and get teachers to come and sit down and listen to them with you or a superintendent or a principal and get them excited about that. I know in the Fresno district with Janet while that's how she she did it, you know, she, she takes an opportunity with with with a superintendent and principals were deciding what to do in the future and she introduces the research and the kinds of things and good things that happen. And so we do have a track record in Poway. And we also have San Francisco who has a school library in an average school, including elementary. And so there are some bright spots. So take advantage of all those. Fantastic. Thank you for giving those examples. Dr. Harlin. Yeah, I would chime in on this. So one of the things that you can do is to build allies with parents, they're going to have a pretty good voice on this in terms of demanding what they want and need for their for their child for their students. So one of the ways that we've seen advocacy be successful is when it comes from the parents rather from the school library themselves. So make sure that you build relationships and allies with parents that are interested in having school libraries in their site. You need to take a look to see what some of the quality programs are so you people know because right now there's not a lot of people who know what a quality school library program looks like particularly in California where we haven't had them for a very long time or where there are bright spots, but it's a little hit and miss. So you want to make sure that you are looking at some really quality programs as as models or what can be one thing we know about administrators is if you have a quality program next door to you. It's really helpful to be like, but they have a school library and their students are getting this actual. Extra thing or not even an extra thing, but this improved educational experience and we want to give our students the same level of improved like they get competitive use that. Great suggestions to all from all the panelists. Okay, we have one more question that came in through the webinar chat. I'm in the program do I need to take all children's courses to become an elementary librarian and if I take info 233 to 50 for example part of the classes for with that count for teacher credential as well. So when I graduate, I will graduate with both degrees. So the teacher librarian credentials actually a 31 unit course that's within the 43 unit MLIS if you're if you're pursuing it and I'll ask Jonathan hunt to to go over that one more time. Yes, so so for the credential there are 11 classes totaling 31 units and you need all of those if you want to get the teacher librarian credential and then you take that 289 and three additional electives will get you to the master's degree. So I'm not I'm not really sure what the what question is being asked here but you do need to take if you are in the MLIS program, you need to have all 11 of those classes taken in order to qualify for a teacher librarian credential. So, but it's not in that you know you need 43 units and for the MLIS and of those 43 units if you take the right 31, then you wouldn't have to take any additional classes that would be embedded in the master's program. But one of the things we get is sometimes we get people who just think the MLIS will qualify them or if they take the MLIS and half of the classes they'll be okay and it's not really life that you have to have the 11 classes, then you can take some extra classes to flesh out the MLIS program. And once again just to reiterate everyone this is a secondary credential secondary to your classroom teaching or CTE credential so you'll have to have that first before you apply to the state commission on teacher credentialing to get the TL credential. So hopefully that makes sense. Mahasti. Okay, well we're getting close to our last few minutes with each other. I just wanted to thank all three of our faculty panelists for being with us today. If you have follow up questions. I know we have put Jonathan's contact information in the chat. And so if you have questions about how to use the pathway tools, the advising tools on our toolkit, you can certainly reach out to us and student services and I'll put our by school email in our chat as well. We do do appointments. I do the appointments Mondays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays. So if you want extra help filling out candidacy paperwork or using the toolkit do sign up for an appointment with us. Thank you everyone for coming out and joining and we hope you have a great weekend. Thanks so much.