 Good morning everybody and thank you for joining us today for this webinar on hydrogen de-blending. I'm Tom Collard, the Programme Lead for Gasco's Green at Energy Networks Association. Gasco's Green is the network programme, a joint initiative supported by Britain's five gas network companies, National Grid, Cadent, Northern Gas Networks, SGN and Wales and West Utilities, many of which you'll hear from today, and we're excited to be with you today to discuss hydrogen de-blending, the opportunities it may bring and how it could enable and accelerate the hydrogen transformation. Before I pass to Tony Green for his welcome and introduction, a couple of housekeeping matters, questions. So we really want your questions. We put together an excellent array of experts who you'll hear from, but we know that we have an audience of industry experts as well. So we've set up Slido, so you can ask questions, ask your questions at any time, rate and rank other people's questions, and we've got several Q&A sessions coming up where as many of these as possible will be answered and discussed. So please, if you've not already got the page up ready, go to slido.com or sli.do on your web browser or download the app and enter the event code, it's in the top left of your screen there, GG02. We have some questions later on in the session which we'll be asking you, but you can ask your questions at any point. Please do keep your microphone muted and your camera turned off. And I think the other point that I want to mention is that we don't want today to be the end of the discussion. We're very keen to keep conversations going. So although we can't see all your lovely faces on the line, please do let us know who you are when asking a question. So try to remember to add your name to the questions that you ask so then we can follow up afterwards where necessary. So that's it from me for now and I'm delighted to introduce Tony Green, Project Director for Hydrogen at National Grid Gas Transmission. Lovely, thank you very much Tom and I'd also like to extend my welcome to you all. When we set this up, we somewhat expected a small maybe 15 to 20 people for actually say a nice little dinner. I think we've got more of a banquet. We've got 110 people registered when I left just a moment ago. There was about 65 on the line already. So welcome to you all. Really good to see so many people interested in this topic. And we're going to spend a bit of time looking at blending and de-blending of gas. And this is from a network's point of view, a concept that we've been researching, that we've been looking at. And what we wanted to do was share some of the research that we've done to date, look at some of the potential use cases that are out there and really draw on the combined knowledge from you as stakeholders to see where we take this next. So in the session today we're going to share some of the research that has been led by Costain on our behalf and it's been funded through the NIA program and all the distribution networks have provided funding into this. And we're going to look through the various use cases and then really draw out some of the challenging aspects of it. And like Tom said in his introduction, we really want your feedback here because I think there's some real interesting opportunities here on how we can take this forward. So we're going to do a bit of Q&A during the session. So I'm not going to say anything more at this point and I'm going to hand over to Lloyd. I'm handing over to Lloyd Mitchell now somewhere or are we coming back to the agenda, Tom? Let's go through the agenda to give people a taste of what's coming up. Okay. So as I said, we're going to have a look through some of the research project that we've led, hydrogen D blending and Lloyd will lead that in a moment. We've then got Pete Petrafak joining us to talk about offshore gas processing. So effectively gas separation and blending from the offshore world and how it's done there. And we'll have a bit of Q&A after that. And then as I said, we're going to focus in on some of the use cases. And we've got representatives from the different networks and also from the power sector to us in that area. So we'll move it over to some Q&A and then we will wrap up around some further opportunities and next steps. Looking at some of the projects that are already underway where D blending might play a role. So that's the outline that we've got for you. And at this point I will hand over to Lloyd who will now go into some of the research we've been doing on hydrogen D blending. Thank you very much, Tony. So as I'm up first, I'll give a bit of the context around why we're interested in this as the networks. And then I'll give a bit more detail about the project that Tony alluded to that we did with Costain. So next slide please. Who's in control? All right. So why are we looking at D blending? Well, one of the challenges we have when thinking about moving to a hydrogen gas system is that we're at natural gas now and transitioning to hydrogen is not going to be able to snap our fingers and go from 100% natural gas to 100% hydrogen. So it's hard to imagine a world where blending doesn't have a role to play in allowing us to make that transition from where we are now to the gas system of the future. So that presents some challenges in that we've got to manage different gas qualities, different customers wanting different products. And so D blending is cropped up as a potential solution to some of those problems that we can utilize on the networks. So as it says there, certain customers will be unable to accept hydrogen blends. So one of the examples we use as the transmission system is power stations because some of those power stations have turbines which are particularly sensitive to hydrogen. And so strategic D blending at particular locations can allow us to give certain consumers in an area hydrogen, certain consumers natural gas and really help us manage that transition. So next slide please. So it can be hard things for people to get their head around. What does that actually look like? So I just, there's a very, very basic illustrative, illustrative example here that I'll just go through very quickly. So we start. So I'm going to have to flip through the sides very quickly. Sorry about that. So start with a natural 100% natural gas system as it is today. We've got some distribution networks, power stations, industrial consumers. But now thinking about moving to gradual increases in hydrogen. Next slide please. So if we start to introduce maybe 10% on the natural gas, we've seen evidence that distributions may be able to handle 10% without much of an issue. But maybe some industrial consumers power stations will be a bit more sensitive. And so we'll have to have D blending facilities there ready to ensure that they have the gas quality they want to whilst the distribution networks soak up that additional hydrogen that's on the network. So next slide please. So yeah, if we then we look at maybe a distribution network converting to 100% hydrogen. So they're able to soak up a greater proportion to have a D blending facility there to make sure that they get 100% hydrogen coming off at that offtake. And then the rest of the gas, the blended gas carries on down the network to the rest of the consumers. So next slide please. And as you step through incremental increase, maybe an industrial consumer switches to hydrogen. Next slide please. And then you sort of get the picture gradually, we get more and more offtake switching to 100% hydrogen. And gradually if we go through the next two slides, I believe, we make our way to 100% hydrogen. So that's a sort of very basic vision of how this could help us manage that transition and the framework for starting this project. So if we go on to the next one please. So what did we look at the project? Well, this was, I think, I believe this is the first NIA project looking at hydrogen which collaborated between all of the networks, which is really promising step on the same page when it comes to this technology. And it was partnered with Costain who were the delivery unit for the project. And we also thought because essentially all of us in the project have skin in the game, so to speak. We wanted an independent peer review done of the technology to make sure it did stand up. And so we've involved Imperial College London and the University of Edinburgh to review the reports. So it was a techno economic review of the blending technologies and their application. So we went through the use cases on the network, the available technologies, the technical and economic evaluation, and then looked at what a potential demonstration project could look like. So next slide please. So looking at the use cases, so it's all focused on off takes for us because we don't use any of the gas for transport, or very little of it anyway. So we analyzed a broad representation of off takes. So we looked at all the NTS off takes managed by National Grid, as well as the LTS off takes managed by Cadent and NGN and showed a number of parameters. So some of the most important parameters are shown in this graph on the top right. So we're looking at winter gas flow and outlook pressure. And so what we ideally want is a lower outlook pressure because a differential between inlet and outlet pressure is good for driving the process and higher flows make the process more economical. And so looking at this distribution gave us a view of the use cases we would use to develop the study. So those are in the table in the bottom right. So representative 1 million cubic meters for an LTS installation with an inlet pressure of 30 bar and outlet pressures of 2 bar 20 bar and inner sensitivity at 30 bar. And similarly for NTS off takes 3 million cubic meters in the pressure of 60 bar and out pressure of 7 bar and 30. And those were those were used as the basis for the techno economic evaluation that was done later on. So I said most important factors in the pressure out the pressure flow. And these are what we focused on. But there were a number of other parameters that we considered as part of the study. So next slide please. So what are the technologies? So we considered a number of technologies as part of the process that included technologies that are widely used within the chemical industry with very high TRL levels. But we also considered some of the newer emerging technologies such as palladium membranes, electrochemical separation as well. But ultimately in terms of you know, use on a network, it has to be an established technology to really operate at the scale and the economies of scale that we're looking at. So going forward in the study, we focused on the combination of membrane separation and pressure swing absorption as well as cryogenic separation as the two main methods of hydrogen separation. Next slide please. So looking at cryogenic separation in a little bit more detail. So this uses the gas pressure drop so through the Jules-Thompson effect it naturally decreases the pressure of the gas and that drives the refrigeration process. And that's one of the reasons why de-blending is particularly suited for the LTS and the NTS because there is usually quite a significant pressure differential which can really reduce the energy input required for these processes and drive down the costs. But the hydrogen, what happens is the hydrogen remains as a vapor with most of the other gases within the stream dropping out as a liquid as it's called. So what this leaves you with is a high pressure hydrogen stream and that's pretty well suited to bulk separation but it does require some pre-treatment to ensure that there aren't other gases within that all stay in the vapor phase. So at the top right we've got some representative costs. So the costs are quite dependent on the flow so the greater throughput you have through your system the more the costs drop and also the greater concentration of hydrogen in your inlet gas so it might it seems to be a bit difficult to see on these slides here but what those two graphs at the bottom are showing are the hydrogen recovery costs on the left so on the y-axis and on the x-axis is the hydrogen concentration within the gas and what that's showing is that as the hydrogen concentration increases the cost of separating the hydrogen out decreases quite significantly so you can see around 7.5% so we need to see here 10% maybe the cost there's a bit of an inversion with cost where it becomes a lot more cost effective to separate the hydrogen out. So if you move on to the next slide so this is similarly for membrane separation with combined with pressure swing absorption so this is a two-stage process using polymer membranes for the bulk separation of the hydrogen and then process a well-known process in the industry called pressure swing absorption to remove the remaining impurities. The benefit of this is that it can achieve very high hydrogen purities it's very scalable and there's little heating or cooling required but similarly to the cryogenic separation you see a similar profile in terms of the cost versus hydrogen concentration again where it's more cost effective at higher hydrogen concentrations which could suggest that in the future it might use separation technologies might be quite expensive at first but as we increase the amounts of hydrogen on the network those costs will fall over time. So if you've just gone to the final slide there's one more so this is just a bit of a quick view of what that for so that the pressure swing absorption is really for that high purity separation whereas cryogenic and membrane of the bulk separation and they give varying pressures and concentrations so for example cryogenic gives hydrogen at high pressure whereas membrane gives the natural gas as a high pressure so very much depends on the application what you're looking for which of these systems you all use. So on to the next final slide please to our next steps so it was quite a promising view overall this the separation technology is definitely feasible on the network it's going to be a question of looking at some specific cases and understanding the economics whether they're stacked up but the next view is to take a network-wide assessment of the UK gas transmission distribution networks to understand where this technology might best be deployed and then similarly we need to show that demonstrate it can be used at scale and I believe Tony will be talking a little bit later about the future grid program which is looking to do that later in its later phases. Okay thank you very much that's all from me. Thanks Lloyd and to Tony for setting the scene for us there so we've already got some questions coming in on Slido which we'll come to in a minute do keep those coming in first though we're going to hear from lawman career. Lawman is a process engineer and study manager with Petrofac he focuses on engineering developments for the oil and gas processing and refining industries he's worked with integrating and evaluating technologies for gas retreatment fractionation and cryogenic processes for LNG as well as refinery flow sheet optimization hydrogen heat integration engaging with process licenses and implementing open art technologies and lawman's here today to share with us his view from the offshore experience so relevant for today's discussion. Lawman over to you. Hi thanks for your introduction and good morning everyone. Yes if you could please move to the next slide. Okay just a little bit of background thanks for introduction I spent probably the first decade of my career doing refining processes so a lot of the PSA which is more associated with the onshore world it's there and quite a lot of the 10 to 15 years doing the gas processing onshore and offshore basically why offshore where are we discussing offshore and why is gas processing and the first part of it is understanding your feedstock what are you using what are you putting in the system understand your feedstock we'll tell you whether you need to do a little pre-processing to get rid of the impurities such as heavy hydrocarbons other such as mercury hydrogen sulfide CO2 any moisture in your gas any heavier hydrocarbons or or b-tex processes these are these things are relevant why because every processing every processing technology that we go for depending on the knowledge we go for will require a different level of processing of impurities before it reaches the deep landing the deep landing stage and this is what we do onshore and this is exactly what we do offshore of course offshore we have a much richer sort of stream where we have more of these components perhaps in the pipeline these these contaminants will be found in less proportion less concentrations but the process remains the same and so whether you need to condition your feed to the deep landing unit or you need to do that preconditioning to achieve a desired specification to your final user your process offshore onshore they are very very similar and the message from this is these are very solid industry processes we have been around for decades literally if we could move to the next slide please exactly so if you look at the graph on the on the left hand top left hand corner it talks about complexity and it talks about the onshore world the offshore world fixed by from the offshore world floating so and increasing levels of complexity as you get to the offshore floating so the key message is if we can't do it offshore and in offshore floating it's much less complex if we do it onshore of course there's a message here as well that offshore one of the complications apart from the sea motions and and in the marine environment we have a reduced available plot space which also presents a few challenges but this is all well understood in the offshore industry where modularization is key we need to be able to build things compact and that can be lifted and transported and fit into position with as little therefore as possible and this has been done in in huge FPSOs I have had the honor of being involved with some of these designs and floating lng facilities and more recently a we call it an FPSO but it isn't really an FPSO it was it's a huge boat processing a million sorry a billion standard cubic feet per day of gas using these same gas processing technologies and just to put in the cards is about 30 million cubic meters per day so the scale is there the complexity is there but they're all understood in the world and in this industry so and I would say that to make these projects more feasible in terms of implementation we said strongly recommends having an offshore approach to the onshore world in terms of we have a similar situation of sure that we have onshore in the UK we have land and we have labor costs so land comes at a premium labor is at a premium so we need to find ways of making things smaller for a smaller plot plot space and affordable quicker to build so we can mitigate some of the labor costs too that's why I say offshore approach to the onshore world and finally this in terms of the petrofac experience we obviously there's a gas processing side of things and the refining side of the world which would come together with this sort of implementation for gas deep lending particularly for hydrogen production because hydrogen currently has no particular use in the offshore world just because we haven't gotten there and but it blends really well and with with what it's happening downstream once the processing is performed so that's that's it from me I hope I stay within the five minutes you did many thanks lawman so we're now going to have our first q and a so let's head over to Slido and see what questions we have for Tony Lloyd and lawman so a couple in and do keep those coming so the first question from Julie Cox at energy UK is can technologies operate flexibly to meet gas demand profiles or as local storage needed so Tony Lloyd perhaps you've got some initial reflections on this from the research undertaken to date so yeah I can pick on up on that first if like Tony so this this study itself didn't go into storage that's that's why one of the the key next steps is looking at a sort of whole network context but but storage is always been quite a big part of the picture so for example we did a study not long ago with SGN Aberdeen Vision looking at St. Fergus and looking at in blending hydrogen in only very small quantities into the NTS there and even just to maintain a two percent blend you probably need storage because the units used to blend the hydrogen can only turn down so much so the big variations we have on the our networks you know the peak day could be 10 times the flow of the of the lowest flow day so it we're always considering that that element of storage I don't know if you want to add anything to that Tony no I think you've covered that thanks okay thanks thanks Lloyd so another question is also about the research undertaken to date was consideration in that given to managing the the gas composition at different locations on the network so similarly it wasn't an explicit part of the study that's that's looking at the wider network but again another very significant consideration so we we already have you know we already closely monitor gas quality as it as it goes through the network at various stages we would have to implement new systems to monitor specifically hydrogen blends because it's unlikely that all our existing equipment will be able to measure that sort of gas quality and so is with that with that in mind that we'll be looking to include additional gas monitoring because you know we've already got a complex gas system but it's going to become more complex so increased monitoring will definitely be be part of the picture thanks right a question for lawman on the cost reductions that have been seen in the offshore sector particularly those that might have been achieved through modularization or repeat construction yes okay it's a it's a it's an interesting question the the of course the in terms of repeat engineering repeat construction it all depends on the economy's scale and how we can place those contracts for manufacturing and manage them on a cost reduction point of view I mean this counts on workloads and work fronts and the the modularization point on the in the offshore world is a it's a bit of a tricky one because the many of the things we build offshore and fpsos or platforms are modularized anyway I would say for onshore where you have remote locations you have you have to stay within a boundary of transportation limitations and you want to speed up construction in place because it costs you fundamentally a lot of money then the benefits are very much linked to what that labor costs is in the place you're building the the facility so in the UK I'm guessing I'm just out of my it would range probably 35 40 percent of your cost probably be associated with the construction and as much as you can do to reduce those construction costs because you shorten the time of implementation the better off the project will be thanks woman does that answer the question it does yeah and and another question that's coming also relating to to costs which perhaps picks up the the slides that you presented Lloyd in terms of how the costs vary with hydrogen concentrations and specifically whether the the the costs that were shown on the graph with the deep landing per kilogram of hydrogen that's an interesting I suppose that that links up with the presentation and it's and it will depend on the level of processing you require so you would have to be accompanied if it's a unfortunately it's not a single a response that is completely direct so you need to assess first the level of of preconditioning or treating you need to do to that particular stream and and then assess the hydrogen purity that you want to achieve and that will determine what process you need to follow and hence that will determine your your cost your cost base no doubt the higher the concentration in the network the easier it is to separate all hydrogen to a certain extent yeah and to pick up on the question about the graph in particular that it was showing specific costs so yeah that cost cost per kilo of hydrogen so yeah you would expect it to to to decrease but it is dependent on so many different factors the differential pressure the the flows of hydrogen concentration and what what purity you need so we use these representative use cases for the study but really any kind of use of hydrogen d blending is going to be after a very specific bespoke study looking at those operational parameters that you need at that location great thank you both so another question let's come in is about the the size of the de-blending facilities the sort of the the space that those would take up and the extent to which those would be appropriate across the GB network has there been any consideration of that to date so the study did do it wasn't a main deliverable but we did look at the footprint of a representative facility and at the moment they are quite large it depends because some of our art takes particularly to large consumers you know or a reasonable size of ground installation anyway and you might feasibly be able to get it within the footprint of the site but it's likely that with the the scale of technology for many sites it wouldn't fit within the existing footprint but that was kind of one of the interesting things on the agenda for this study is yeah looking at you know that the learnings from the offshore industry maybe we can take those onto onto the onshore and have that sort of compactness and and manage to fit the the kit within the existing footprint I think that would make it a lot easier because extending sites can be you know a significant additional cost thanks and the other question that's come in is on how we are ensuring that work is coordinated across the networks Lloyd's already mentioned the work done with SGN on Aberdeen vision and later on today we're going to be hearing from the other and the other networks on related projects so I think we'll pick that up later on so many thanks for your questions then as I said do keep them coming in or do you keep rating other people's questions so we're now going to have a series of short presentations on use cases to hear about how hydrogen blending could impact the domestic setting how it could be used in transport in industry and in the power sector and what the experience would be and what the opportunities could be and then after those four presentations we'll have a further Q&A at the end so as I say do keep your questions coming in as you think of them so Adam Badley from Progressive Energy will discuss de-blending in industry we'll hear from David Jones from Cayden on transport use cases and then from Phil Cahill at RWE on the perspective from the power sector first though Keith Owen will present on the domestic use case for de-blending Keith over to you. Thanks Tom good morning everyone so quickly then Tom if you could move me to the next slide please thank you so within industry there's been work going on for some time now to understand the challenges of conveying hydrogen through our existing gas infrastructure that started out as say a few years ago now and from an all-in-gas networks perspective as the lead for H21 we're really pleased that this is very much a collaborative industry project to understand all of the technical challenges the issues around society and so forth so that we can answer all of the necessary questions which would be required in order that government have the confidence to make the right to make the sort of policy decisions that would underpin a move to a hydrogen gas system so very quickly the H21 project is just about to close out phase one actually and we anticipate the reports to be published around about august september time there's been a number of parts to that one over at the HSE research laboratories in buxton looking at the the comparative differences are existing assets exhibit conveying natural gas and then switching to hydrogen to understand how that behavior changes what the leakage process might look like and so on we've also been looking at the consequence of that leakage over at the spade atom facility operated by dnv gl in cumbria so that we really get a solid understanding of how but how different hydrogen will behave and and move around in soil structure and so forth if we were to move to a hydrogen based heat system for the uk wrapped around all of that is the development of quantum risk assessment for hydrogen now this is something that exists already for the natural gas industry it's an essential component of everything that we do in many respects in that it understands the the various risks and probability and wraps all of that together so we've got a very comprehensive understanding of lots of different scenarios and just how natural gas would behave and we need precisely the same thing when it comes to conveying hydrogen and all of that then infers back into the the new standards the new processes and the procedures that we undertake in order to manage a safe reliable and effective gas infrastructure for for for the country if you move to the next slide please thank you as i mentioned it isn't just about the technical i think it's essential that we really understand how this will impact customers that are currently using natural gas or indeed not to get their views and their concerns recognized understood and to communicate in a in a way which is easy for them to understand because this is quite a technical area that we're talking about it's it's a momentous change to to move to hydrogen but certainly an essential one if we're to deliver rapid decarbonization of heat and hit that net zero target for for the uk by no later than 2050 so really important that we run social sciences really important that we have that conversation and we get some we've already had some really really positive feedback from from members of the public expressing concerns understanding what we're trying to do what's really uh i think uh uh promising is that customers really want to engage with this they're really interested and they want to understand what we're trying to do and i think that's important if they're ever to make the right choices for them in whatever heat solution they might wish to adopt for their individual circumstance so it's a little bit about social sciences and then just to close out if you move to the next slide please so talked about what we've been doing in phase one but that's not the end by by any means we've phase one's been all about individual asset we're now moving to phase two and that's starting to look at the the the convince of hydrogen from from a network perspective what are the different challenges that we would see once we have all of these bits of asset connected together so in that context we are developing a micro grid over at the spade atom site and that will allow us to understand all of our network operations how we manage the hydrogen gas pipeline system compared to that natural gas what differences what what new techniques might we need in order to manage that in an appropriate manner as part of this we're also undertaking unoccupied trials what we tested so far as asset that we harvested from around the UK as part of the means replacement program so by doing that we putting the we're testing the assets in an unnatural situation i.e. they're above ground all of a sudden they've been soil structures been removed from and so on so it's important that we validate all of our findings in an unoccupied trial the part of a network that's never been disturbed so we see that all of those results stack up stand up to that level of scrutiny there's some work to combine the QRA work that's been done so far with with the work that's been carried out in the high for heat program which would then provide a QRA that's not just looking at the pipeline network but all the way all the way through to the burner so again an important next step and then we could continuing with that social sciences work to really really get a firm handle on on where we need to take that and then just as a final piece once we finished all of that in phase two and we're just getting underway with that we're already thinking about well what happens with phase three and moving from the unoccupied trial space into fully occupied trials the sort of thing that we're seeing with high deploy too which is a blended gas program where we're working with 670 existing natural gas customers up in Gateshead I think it's really important that we take that next step to work directly with customers and understand precisely how to do this how to keep customers happy how to keep everyone safe and how to deliver a really low cost hydrogen gas network for the future so that's a little bit about domestic I'll hand back to Tom thank you many thanks Keith and I'm going to straightaway pass to Adam great thanks Keith thanks Tom morning all thanks for turning up yeah I probably not time to say too much about about progressive but suffice to say we're leading the development of the of the high net project which hopefully you're familiar with and high net has a major sort of blending element so we're obviously interested in this work just this this slide should give you just an idea of the sort of geography of the industry sites around the the sort of what we call the northwest industrial cluster which links into high net many of those sites we've been working with since project origination for high nets about four years this slide doesn't show the hydrogen she's got the CCS or the CO2 pipeline on it going out to Liverpool Bay doesn't show the hydrogen pipeline but it's worth saying that we've just completed pre-feed on that pipeline and we're not far off from from kicking off feed the phase one of the pipeline that will connect some of those industry sites um next slide please apologies for the wordiness of this one really just to sort of some early thoughts and really to sort of raise some questions I don't necessarily have the answers for these but in in respect of whether the blending could be useful for industry I think the first key question first sort of I guess opportunity I guess which was mentioned by national grid early was was access to hydrogen for use as a fuel for industry which could facilitate um earlier conversion of plant located outside of industry clusters I think those located within within industry clusters will largely get a get a supply with with with a dedicated hydrogen pipeline um I think this this was a point raised earlier again and also in a question but will I guess the challenge associated with that um with supplying with the blending of hydrogen would be the the sort of if you do in that large volume was the impact that that would have on the blend to the percentage blend supplied to others that could cause you're certainly fit for industry issues um with with the burner which may may you know if you've got variable amounts of hydrogen coming at any given time that could present a lot of challenges of course with metering as I think someone alluded to earlier I think that those those are the sort of key challenges but but possibly possibly you know a good opportunity I think the other one is is removal of hydrogen to enable ongoing use of use of natural gas by industry at least in the short term certainly on high net um you know we we want to blend into the distribution network um there are some challenges associated with some forms of industry or types of heat and power generation in industry that can't be as easily converted to hydrogen or the evidence isn't there yet so do blend needs to allow natural gas to go to those plant could be could be a useful thing to do a particularly relevance I'll talk about a bit for forms of direct firing like you know ceramics and glass sector but also for chp so that's an opportunity but but alongside that you know question is is it is it simpler to develop the evidence base as we as we're doing actually at the moment to enable those sites to operate on hydrogen rather than go to the complexities of deep lending so there's a bit of a question and balance to be had there um next slide please so this is the what we call the high net IFS the high net industrial fuels switching program it's work that's been sponsored by bay's industrial fuel switching competition so this program of work that we are smack bang the middle of just briefly I mean we are as progressive leading this work we have six work packages we've been supplied with hydrogen for the project by by boc as a contractor I think possibly the greatest challenge associated with this program work is getting sufficient hydrogen which has meant that we've had to scale back some of the the scale of considerations we have a direct firing package at pilkington glass where we're actually going to be putting hydrogen into a blend of hydrogen into a blend and going up to 100 hydrogen into parts of the the glass furnaces in helens we have the work the boiler's work package where we're doing is I guess a pretrial at dunphy combustion in rochdale ahead of putting up to 100 hydrogen into unilever's port sunlight site and I should emphasize both both pilkington and unilever those are going to be live trials it's going to be in a fully environment commercial scale and then work package six we have a we're undertaking a feed study for a new hydrogen chp and your gas turbine at sr standalone refinery it's not a demonstration in that one largely because in contrast to boilers of unilever and then the glass furnace at pilkington the gas the the existing gas chp it doesn't it's not really able to take high proportions of hydrogen I think with with chp we're largely looking at replacement of replacement turbines so new kick rather than conversion which is the case at a lot of a lot of other sites next slide please I hope I'm okay for time this is actually my last slide so the objectives of the program are to provide evidence we want obviously our participating sites to be able to convert hydrogen as soon as we can supply it from the high net project we want that evidence to be transferred onto wider sites not only within the northwest but also beyond we've converted as many sites to hydrogen as possible as soon as it's available particularly in the different clusters across the UK we wanted to determine the cost of converting to hydrogen and as I said it's mostly conversion rather than buying new plants and equipment I think it's surprising actually for how little the capital cost of actually converting some of these sites is it's obviously the differential between natural the cost of natural gas and hydrogen which is the challenge that we need to bridge via forms of support and long-term policy mechanisms from from government we want to prove obviously there's no there's no detrimental impacts upon existing plants and equipment and we also want to demonstrate that hydrogen can be used safely which is obviously a critical consideration and and can meet all of not only safety regulations but also that there's no greater environmental impact than than current use of natural gas so no need for significant permit variations particularly as you'd expect with regards to things like NOx so that's all I've got to say hope I can't check my clock hopefully I'm broadly within five minutes but thank you for listening many thanks Adam and indeed for keeping to time I'm going to pass straight over to David thanks Tom so thank you for giving me the opportunity to to introduce transport and to discuss the yeah the potential of hydrogen as a use case next slide please I just wanted to set the scene and just provide a little bit of background I think with net zero the transport landscape certainly changed and we see a much greater role for biomethane and hydrogen in the in the evolving market I think it's fair to say hydrogen has the potential to meet significant proportion of future mobility demand and if you look at the scenarios generated by a number of actors you see a range of emerging between 25 and 140 terawatts which is pretty significant and a central case would give you around about 80 terawatts which seems reasonable so that's the sort of starting point in terms of the scale but I think it's fair to say that you know plans to scale and achieve that that level of hydrogen production delivery face significant challenges and that's what we're looking at today but but I think overall the majority can be overcome next slide please so we've heard quite a few discussions that today about the importance of economics and prices and I think that's that's true we've got to bear in mind what what the the users expect and what they are prepared to pay decarbonisation is absolutely necessary and I think you know hydrogen has a clear role to play in the mobility sector it's very very useful as it provides great advantages in terms of some of the key hard to decarbonise sectors and this graph illustrates almost a creaming between the different options starting with the the hard to decarbonise type applications to to the left and then moving to the right you see lighter commercial vans and cars but the important takeaway is there's a range of prices here between four and six dollars a ton of sorry a dollars per kilo of of hydrogen and that's important because that's sort of matching to the the potential energy demand and that would see you achieving something in the range of between 15 percent at the high level of six dollars and potentially around about 50 percent if you are able to get it around about four four dollars per kilo so an important metric and and from that you also identify some key segments like trucks long distance buses larger passenger cars rail is another potential so the opportunities if we can achieve those prices is that hydrogen can be extremely competitive next slide please and this is some work we carried out with support from adam actually from progressive this was looking at a transport layer over the high net projects so this is really for new hydrogen new pipelines new refuelling infrastructure and the graphic on the right provides an overview view and comparison of the different costs between the more expensive use of on-site electrolysis off-site electrolysis is placed in the middle and then we see high net which is grid supplied hydrogen from the project using new pipes and new infrastructure we see that providing a very competitive price so overall that provides something in the order of 40 to 70 lower costs than the alternatives at 2019 prices so that provides us with a good opportunity to position the use of hydrogen networks and new networks specifically in the transport sector I think it's fair to say hydrogen cars buses trains some marine are reasonably well developed but what we're missing is policy and infrastructure which is what we're just you know discussing today in terms of making this happen still challenging of getting some of these segments opened up I'm doing quite a lot of work with hgvs at the moment in the UK and what's interesting although it's not developed yet it's probably one of the most important sectors because of its scale and an important point that we need to consider is the cost of managing impurities and contaminants especially if we're looking at older networks what we think is that the use of hydrogen in new infrastructure will provide a sensible a reasonable competitive price as indicated in the graphic at about three three pound sixty an ax in sterling per kilo next slide please so the previous slide was all about the new and the and the high net project and what we know quite a lot about but what if we want to actually inject and blend into existing networks well we commissioned an NIA project called hydrogen grid to vehicle and this essentially looked at a variety of permutations of hydrogen production sources whether it was a hundred percent or blends with natural gas this illustration is providing an overview of a blended system which is what we're discussing today the results and what we found was that generally speaking hydrogen production is pretty clean and the output is compliant with transport fuel cell standards however if we look at the sources of natural gas before blending typically there are contaminants that would cause problems for fuel cells so by mixing the two clearly we're we're looking at a potential issue if we then go on to de-blend and supply to heat as we heard earlier I think the heat standards for high net the quality specification can be achieved so I think we're okay for heat but certainly if we look at fuel cells and their use in transport and the quality requirements for fuel cell vehicles we see we see a challenge and the need for purification and those challenges manifest themselves in terms of the the presence of odorants so we've got to manage sulfur or sulfur on contaminants we also need to consider the hydrogen quality obtained after de-blending what applications as I say for transport we're going to need to think about that quite carefully purification steps are certainly required after de-blending and a lot of that comes back to contamination of the hydrogen from the gas itself and also if we're using repurposed networks particular material and residues in the network I think purification for transports feasible technical technologies exist but I think we need to probably move further and we certainly need to understand contaminant and concentration variation across the network before we can apply specifications or develop specifications for specific technologies and that variation is an important consideration and to summarize I think the new PE network provides less contaminants and therefore the focus moving forward is certainly we need to think a little bit harder about the use of repurposed networks next slide please so drawing that together and coming up with some key questions I think overall there's no strategic plan currently in the UK to scale up hydrogen in transport so it's early days but the DFT are working on their decarbonisation transport plan and we're actively supporting that and I'm really keen that we develop a proposition for for networks I think that as we've seen has got a great opportunity to provide cost effective hydrogen for transport applications however we need to just you know consider hydrogen delivery by the network and specifically the need for cleanup due to the nature of contaminants that we've identified in the network itself whether that comes from blended networks or 100% networks certainly using repurposed infrastructure I think we need to be mindful of what needs to be done to to to clean up that fuel prior to putting into fuel cells that leads on to gas quality standards I think we know we see those reflected in heating specifications and use of hydrogen for heat less so for hydrogen hydrogen for transport and there's a whole debate about that in the future I'm really keen that we never lose focus on the on what customers are prepared to pay and I think overall the work that we've done would suggest that future hydrogen prices need to be competitive and that's sort of putting it in a range between three and five kilos and that's probably out to 2030 that's the sort of time horizon where we see those prices taking effect high net has shown that we can achieve that with new infrastructure but there's questions over exist use of existing infrastructure we need also to be mindful the need to to make sure that we have an investable transition pathway as we move from what we do today to the future and that's specifically between biomethane and hydrogen to support transport and we're leaving some work on that to to identify that pathway and provide a narrative and finally I think there's certainly a need for early demonstration to address the challenges that I've identified here and to develop experience and provide confidence to those who are going to make the decisions policy technology selection and development etc so um hopefully that's answered the questions and provided some insights into to transport and how de-blending and use of hydrogen um can impact the the transport market I'll hand back to Tom many thanks David much appreciated and I'm going to hand straight to Phil Cahill okay if you can just move to the next slide please okay so I was asked just to say a few words about de-blending and from the power sector I think number one is we see existing ccgt's being part of that initial demand for hydrogen so I think the hydrogen's coming our way and obviously Tony in his introduction said talked about the power stations in particular as being sensitive users potential sensitive users you know my overriding point is I think we'd like not to be a sensitive user we'd like to be part of that demand I certainly I joined in the south wales industrial cluster meeting earlier this week with the energy minister and he definitely does see the existing infrastructure being converted in the way that the first speaker suggested to gradually move into 100 hydrogen I think it was clear there isn't going to be a separate hydrogen grid so I'm not trying to do a selling point on our wm just trying to sell the context here um we're committed to being carbon neutral by 2040 we've now got a large renewables business that's come in hydrogen's really important to us not just for use but potentially from renewables we're colorblind towards hydrogen so you know no no discussion about where it comes from uh other than cost obviously we've got six major ccgt so I think we're probably the biggest customer on the nts uh with that seven gigawatts so we are a really interested partner shall we say for this transition to hydrogen we've got a range of plants our plant is mainly uh GE and and Siemens including some of the newest and most efficient plant ie they're not great for being test rigs and the size of them means that also it's really difficult to so Adam Battersley said all the points he made about hydrogen for industry uh they translate directly into the power station business but at a different scale and just getting the hydrogen to prove the equipment and prove some of the things that we need to prove is going to be a challenge itself in itself um so just moving on to the next slide then so I'll try and pick up on this slide um some of the some of the challenges so so for instance uh our most efficient cgt down at Pembroke there uh it uses more than 50 tons an hour per unit of natural gas so we we're using more than 250 tons an hour so I did ask the question about the cost of de-blending because the costs that I think I saw going from 60 bar to 30 bar using cryogenics were round about um 1.3 pounds per kilogram sorry 1.1 right about a pound a kilogram so we're looking at adding 50 pounds a megawatt hour just for the de-blending cost so again key takeaway if we don't need de-blending that is a really good thing it's with the scale of what needs to happen for the power station is clearly huge and so are we sensitive users we've got a lot of views from the OEMs that suggest maybe 15-20 percent can be tolerated into the plants we've got some technology in the newest plants with sequential combustion which is probably more suited towards a higher level of hydrogen um and so I guess we may be sensitive users at a certain level of concentration of hydrogen into the system um and we don't want to be obstacles to hydrogen blending into the into the system the challenge is clearly the commercial implications not just for the cost of fuel but then the cost of de-blending has to be borne by somebody you know there's a lot of work at bay is on the business model so it has to work then there's technical issues and contractual issues quite quite frankly as we get into the discussions with the OEMs there's one thing indicating that we can burn a certain level of hydrogen there's quite another making sure that we're not carrying all the risks the commercial risks around that and there's issues on the variability and the rate of change I think there's a question earlier about control of de-blending systems uh paper up for instance has got a gas quality monitor on there so we can adapt the firing system what do we need to do in terms of hydrogen concentration um and then as I say does the you know we we're into uh the operations are made into the plant do we need to have different settings on the control system as we move into different levels of hydrogen what are the maintenance implications not just in terms of you know the the intervals but the contracts we have the commercial contracts we have with the OEMs and and then you know the final point is how do we establish that we can take that level of hydrogen given the scale of what we're doing I think you know in the discussion with Siemens to run one of the combustors for one of their GTs they had to virtually take all the available transportable hydrogen in mainland Europe to run it for a fraction of a day so you know how do we get that level of confidence so we are doing things we're doing things as part of the south Wales industrial cluster we're sponsoring an engineering doctorate uh down at Cardiff so we're an informed user so we need to inch our way towards it and we need to do appropriate testing and you know with a power station I think the only way the only place we're going to get to testing to understand the need for de-blending is actually using a sort of live power station and firing up a section of the grid with hydrogen okay hope that prompts a few questions and thoughts and that's the you know just a quick perspective from from from from the power sector okay thank you that's great thanks Phil and thanks to all our presenters really interesting to hear the the different perspectives considerations and the issues of focus for those different use cases now I think unfortunately Adam's had to leave us but our other speakers are on hand to answer your questions oh for five minutes actually I'm going to come to you with the first question then because I was directed to you uh so it was it was whether you'd come across any showstoppers for de-blending uh I guess I guess we haven't been looking at de-blending as such with that with our project we've been looking at blending um and whether we can we can you know industrial sites can take a blend um I think it does depend it obviously depends on the type of heat and power generation whether it's a boiler or a furnace uh or whatever um in place I don't think we are certainly you know boilers are fairly ubiquitous across across the network industrial boilers I don't think we're expecting any issues with um with with putting a up to a 20% blend into the majority of boilers um I think that's likely also to be the case with with the glass furnace the Pilkington's that we're we're running the demonstration at but um I can't really answer I mean I can't really answer the question or specifically around around de-blending maybe it's better for someone else to say that okay uh we might come back to that with the um the your point uh sort of relates to one of the other questions that we got in terms of um what levels of blending could safely go into the um into the distribution networks without having to change boilers um so on this the the reason why Adam mentioned the 20% level which is being tested through the high-deploy project and as Adam mentioned would be taken taken through to to high net um that follows the uh the EU's gas appliance directive which requires domestic appliances to be tested at that 20% level but a follow-on question was on how much hydrogen production would be cry would be required to meet this 20% hydrogen content so I wondered if anyone um wanted to come in and address that point and whether that's been considered um it's certainly sorry so Adam here it's it's certainly been considered for for the high net project um I did have some figures in front of me a few a few minutes ago because I was working on another report but um I don't know I think it's been it's been considered for for for the high net or we call the high net area broadly um encompasses the um the the the area around you know that I showed on the chart that the sort of with the industrial sites on earlier on um I mean I think the the sort of put a network blend um into that sort of full area we are looking at about um three to four terawatt miles of hydrogen per annum that's great thank you I can maybe so if I can just add to that if you look at that at a UK level we on a winter's day probably put about 365 million cube of gas into the network so if you take 20% of that as hydrogen which has a third of the calorific value and you equal that out you're probably looking at over 200 million cubic meters of hydrogen needed that's that's for the whole of the UK so we're talking pretty large amounts of hydrogen needed if you wanted to do a 20% blend great thanks both and just following on to address some of the other questions that we've had in terms of the rollout plan for hydrogen um so there were some specific questions about whether the networks are proposing a blend or proposing 100% and whether the rollout would cover whole network areas or or just pockets of the network um so a question perhaps that I'm sure that those from the networks would be would be happy to step in and give their thoughts on hi hi Tom it's Keith uh yeah it's a good question and it's an area for a discussion right now I mean it you know when we look at what we're trying to achieve which is to at the moment at least there's a strong focus on that evidence based to underpinned a safety case for hydrogen I think and that that's rightly so where we need to be right now but we are starting to look at how might the the each each of the distribution networks and the transmission system collaborate work together to to evolve our systems from where they are now to to that net zero um and and all options are on the table so there'll be parts of networks where certainly in the early days that the blended solutions are really sensible transitional step to take and they may well sit on that for quite some time in order to at least have some decarbonisation happening perhaps with biomethine in the in the mix as well uh for for other parts of the network but because of that way that certainly distribution networks are are configured um if you start to uh change part of your network to 100 percent uh it leverages quite quite deep penetration of that quite easily if if you choose to do it just through the the the the construct of the network that we have so potentially there is an opportunity to to target the larger emitting areas in the first instance you know the biggest towns and cities across uk in order to to make great strides uh in terms of carbon reduction uh and slowly leverage out from that so you you begin to develop a almost a a hub of mentality across uk where small hydrogen centres are established and then you start to evolve out from that that's one way of doing it um it's not to say uh that everywhere is going to be converted to hydrogen much as we might like might quite like that um it is about finding the right least cost solution for for different locations so you know if you're down uh you know in some parts of the uk where uh electricity solution might be a more optimum way of doing things then absolutely do that that's that's sensible uh but we do see a very significant role for for hydrogen in the gas infrastructure uh with with every opportunity in many respects to penetrate all of the areas that it has right now so it's a real mixed bag and it's a bit of a messy answer but it's just that's the state of thinking at the moment um great ambition real great opportunity there very large amounts of hydrogen required as as 20 alluded to even at 20% levels uh so there are there are a few things to join up here it's fair to say though that irrespective of the heat solution we're going to need really big amounts of energy production so if you're going down the electricity route it's going to have to be massive if you're going down the hydrogen route it's going to have to be big so so those those issues exist everywhere um and it's just finding the the optimum route through all of this in a whole systems manner to to deliver the the best outcomes for customers thanks Keith and uh I'm actually going to go to the a comment from Morris on the the teams chat um which is perhaps something for Tony and Lloyd to to think about in relation to the opportunities that de-blending would bring to this so Morris has asked whether hydrogen would be needed would be needed to be injected at strategic points um to enable that the the gas distribution network to have today to continue to be used and whether the the hydrogen would need to be produced on site at point of use or whether it could be um produced elsewhere and move through the network I guess the answer to that is that is is both are correct um it could be an either or um if you look at the maturity of hydrogen production today um if you want volume you've really got to be looking at blue hydrogen so smr um reformed methane and carbon capture um if you're looking at small scale green hydrogen is obviously the way forward at this point but we clearly haven't got the scale if you wind the clock forward 10 20 30 years time I suspect we will see that green hydrogen has matured um the the cost of green hydrogen will drop significantly and we could probably be looking at a far more distributed hydrogen generation scenario so I think both answers of the set up are valid um and it's just a matter of timing so in my view I think it will be blue first um in in the gas goes green documentation we've used that the term blue is the gateway to green from a hydrogen point of view great thanks Tony um so I want to uh document some of the more detailed questions that link into some of the the use cases we heard about um so a question for Phil on whether um from your understanding whether a power station could cope with fluctuating hydrogen concentrations or whether the levels would have to be about it and uh keeping within certain parameters right okay well I'll try not to give a woolly answer because um the the overall answer is depends so it depends on the step change or whether it's a damp change in concentration it depends on the size of the step change it depends on the control system that's there on the power station and it depends on the firing system so you know we we run through we run through with our existing stations changes in gas quality for instance with with heavy hydrocarbons and so you know a small concentration I would expect the plant to run to run change I would expect it to run through but there'll be certain points as we move step through the control system where we've remapped the firing conditions and then we'll either need a trigger to to do that either by some sort of monitoring um or order a warning if you like that gas quality is changing so it's it's there isn't a simple answer to that one it generally we don't like sudden changes in uh quality uh or nature of the gas coming into the power plant does that sort of answer the question it does yes thank you there's a whole load of work that needs to be done to do that by the way and there's a whole load of expensive work that would need to be done with the OEMs to to carry out the tests that would be needed to establish those fire the the control parameters and it's likely to be on each of the different stations there are different Siemens machines different GE machines Mitsubishi machines etc and all of those will have subtle sensitivities to the rate of change and the the absolute amount of hydrogen that can be tolerated without a major replant shall we say yeah thanks I think that's an important point to note that there's there's further work required across this this piece this thinking so another question uh this one for for David I think so we we had a couple questions on purity and where the pipe hydrogen would be clean enough for use in transport David you touched on this but I wonder if you can elaborate a little on what the H2GV work has shown in terms of contaminants or the the impact of so sulfur-based odorants so it yeah it it certainly is an important point and and for me it's it is one of it is one of the biggest challenges we have when we start looking at end uses and it's interesting to sort of hear the power sector in terms of their requirements and I think you know you've got the industrial requirements and transport is just another end use but if you're using fuel cells you are you're operating a very high specification you could argue it might even be too high it's set by the OEMs but in terms of the work we did around a hydrogen grid to vehicle and I'll I'll discuss I'll describe the the new network tests essentially when we we did contacting with PE pipes and looked at measurements from the network we actually saw you know a relatively clean result the contaminants present that would probably cause concern would be CO2 and oxygen and CO and potentially some particulates or carryover if the the new networks connected to an old network so new networks and new hydrogen and relatively pure hydrogen I think we can we can find solutions for if we move to repurpose network and the source of hydrogen it can be from a production unit or it can be from deep blending but once it's into a repurpose network the source of things that we measured and we identified and the work was completed by MPL and partners certainly we identified non high non methane hydrocarbons including aromatics which would potentially cause concern there's the the the methane the nitrogen sulfur compounds obviously the odorant and H2S additional compounds in the particulates and we found some all sorts of particular material in the network that if you contact with pure hydrogen creates a problem and others were formaldehyde formic acid and ammonia or trace elements of those and those all represent challenges when you start looking at fuel cell applications so in my world you know I'm ideally I'm looking at some magical kind of technology black box that will take what you know heat is currently able to to live with and and you convert that hydrogen into a purity that that fuel cells can operate off of and like I say the driver is it's by far the cheapest way of distributing bulk hydrogen to these key applications which includes transport and refueling infrastructure hopefully that answers the question great yes thanks for that those further insights David so one of the questions that's come in that's perhaps for for Tony or Lloyd is thinking about the deep blending process itself how much CO2 is created through that process so for the the power required for that equipment the the power per kilogram of hydrogen that's d blended so I mean it depends a bit on the process that's used so that was one of the the benefits to looking to utilize the inherent pressure differential in the network to drive the process in that the energy most of the energy for the process is already there in the form of compressed gas and you can utilize that energy to drive the separation so so in particular cryogenic wouldn't require a huge amount of energy membrane separation it depends on what you want your product pressure to be so I said earlier cryogenic gives hydrogen at a high pressure and membrane separation gives hydrogen at a low pressure and vice versa for the natural gas streams that are coming out if you want your product to a higher pressure and it's coming out of the process at a low pressure then you would require recompression and that's what's going to be the the main energy requirement of the process but if you can avoid that there's actually quite a small energy input and obviously depending on the on the source of your energy that could be low carbon anyway so in terms of the overall process there's not a huge amount of energy input at the off-taste to the networks. Thanks Lloyd and that's positive here in terms of achieving net zero of course so I'm never never wanted to try and close off discussion but just conscious of time I'm going to ask one more question to each of the panelists and it's going to be the same question and Keith Fairwarning I'm going to ask you first so what kind of policy changes would be needed to happen to enable hydrogen in the networks and their connected customers? Okay you start with a nice simple question then Tom thanks for that I think there are a number of areas that would be helpful in order to move us towards this this newly decarbonized world it's clear from some of the activity so far from appliance manufacturers that the the deliverability of a hydrogen ready appliance is really key so a simple and in many respects a low-regret policy decision may be to mandate as has been done for condensing borrowers mandate hydrogen ready appliances you know no later than perhaps 2025 because that sort of direction really gives confidence to supply chain which I think is the one thing that is is perhaps lacking at the moment that that confidence to invest in R&D the production plant and so forth and and and realize the potential for for these new products and also to drive the cost down which is also very much key so I think that's very important I think it is incumbent on the networks and other industrial partners to be able to deliver the required evidence that would underpin a safety case back to back to our regulator back to base so that these policy decisions to say we can see a route for hydrogen in the gas network and therefore we'll start to bring forward that that policy direction I think it's those sorts of things that need to be sorted out first there are quite a number of different areas that would enable and help and and deliver step changes and there's perhaps a way forward here which allows us to make smaller steps to keep progress going not to not to unduly impact progress in the UK and I think there's also a need just a step aside from that that policy ask there is a need to work closely with what's happening in Europe because we're seeing some pretty big noises coming out of Europe about hydrogen in the gas infrastructure particularly in Germany so so I think making sure that at a high level governments are aligned because gas infrastructure is bit immune to geography and politics it just stretches everywhere as does the electricity grid so it's important that we have a really joined up view but all of that needs to be underpinned by hard work and evidence from from industry in order to establish that that policy in the first instance so I think that it's it's it would be wrong to say it's over to x to sort the problem out it's this is a real collective effort to get this over the line that's great thanks Keith um David what would you say doesn't necessarily have to be transport focused so what would I say I think around policy three things I think first of all what we're looking at is an integrated hydrogen strategy in the UK what I see is you know obviously I look at some transport but I'm also interested in all the other end uses and applications we've discussed today and I think we need something that brings it all together and also some of the speakers have referred to systems energy systems solutions and I think that that's another key part of it so that would be my first ask I think the second is around the transport piece we need to be mindful that we need vehicles we need infrastructure and therefore there needs to be policy support and incentives to to encourage that that particular industry that particular segment and ideally you know a mechanism that doesn't disadvantage consumers so it really is about focusing on the delta that exists between what we have today or the counterfactual over time and the hydrogen solution so again that comes down to vehicles and OEMs and supporting the market and then finally I think people have been saying about you know taking out or minimizing risk and developing knowledge and experience and evidence I'm a real believer in learning by doing so I think demonstration is important I've touched on things like the purity piece I think we need to move quickly to scale where we can actually have cost discovery and find the most appropriate solutions and if I pick the sector to focus on in transport it would be the heavier end the HDVs for the reasons we've discussed about you know the size of the market and the demand so there were three things there demonstration pricing and integrated hydrogen strategy thanks David and Phil you said that are supportive of both blue and green hydrogen so what's your perspective on policy to enable hydrogen use in the power sector well I sort of agree straight away with the two the most important point the other two people raised which was is to commercials you know follow the money you know we're talking about a bigger increase in the cost of hydrogen potentially of course it depends on the business models for the supply end I think Bayes are focused on this creating the supply end I think that's where we may well see their policies coming forward I don't know if that means that the gas that goes into the network is effectively a similar sort of cost to to natural gas because the effectively the incentives are on the supply end and therefore they then reflected into the overall cost of natural gas consumers but the commercial bit definitely is a really important piece I know there's work at Bayes on the business models and I sit on two of those groups to bring that forward so I think that's really important you don't want you know hydrogen into our power plants is going to reduce the CO2 so you want them to run you don't want them to run less than plants that shall we say slightly higher CO2 I think there needs to be a regulatory framework for the transportation and storage so all the safety issues all the stuff needs to be done as well that that's a clear piece of work that helps create hydrogen I think in the commercials as I say the deep blending costs are very high you know I when I read one pound a kilogram I read 50 pounds a megawatt hour added to the cost of the wholesale price of electricity so that's more than the cost of deep blending is more than the cost of production at the moment alone without the blue hydrogen and then in terms of hydrogen we are green you know blue we're quite happy to take whatever form of hydrogen obviously the cost the commercials aside we're more focused from the supply end on green hydrogen rather than rather than blue but we we're fully supportive of hydrogen going forward you know our business we've got a commitment to be net zero by 2040 and therefore you know hydrogen has to be a big part of that and then in terms of green hydrogen again I'm I'm sort of just directly connected wind turbines and those some things like the RTFO requires that at the moment to qualify we can see a lot of benefit in things like guarantees of origin so you can use the power from from wind farms and not necessarily be directly connected we think that's really important we think green hydrogen I agree with the previous comment as well about blue and green hydrogen blue comes first and green and another reason why we're not colorblind is because we recognize that firm flexible generation of hydrogen is essential to go alongside perhaps the more potentially intermittent renewable hydrogen in the form of green hydrogen so the two need to work hand in hand you know there's there's mutual benefit in the two the two different forms of hydrogen does that sort of answer the question in a long-winded way it certainly does thank you Phil and I think positive to end on a point of consensus in terms of the need for policy to be to support those commercial answers but but also for for industry to work on that as well so many thanks for your comments and questions that came in there and again thank you to the presenters on those use cases we're now going to move on to our ask the audience part of the webinar so again really here and I'm really keen to hear from those of you on the line fingers on buzzers please via Slido we've got three questions coming up now now for the first of these two we've set you a little challenge we want you to answer in as few words as possible so channeling that that Friday feeling let's first bring up the question yes so as you can see on the screen here what are the benefits of the blending so thinking about what you've heard today and your own understanding can you set out to us in a few words what you see is the benefits of the blending so we're seeing lots of answers come in so flexibility certainly a key here picking up some of the points we were discussing in terms of being able to accelerate the transition accelerate hydrogen uptake interesting there's also picking up the some of the the presentations and the points made in terms of providing efficiency or optimization for the network flexibility is very clearly a winner currently as the comments are still coming in inclusive transition is a is a point that's been made a couple of times that's growing in prominence is a clear benefit of de-blending so perhaps to bring in some of our speakers from earlier Tony it's it's clear from the from those who are on the line that flexibility is a clear benefit of de-blending I think that would chime with national grid's consideration and work to date on de-blending yeah absolutely I mean I think that's that's why we we set the challenge in the first place and why costain responded in the way they did at the outset of all of this it does provide some options there are costs there's costs with everything but it's it's a tool in the arsenal that we're working on here we're not saying that de-blending is the way forward it's it's one of the the options we could be doing blend only we could be doing a step by step conversion pipe by pipe to 100 hydrogen but if it does does work at scale and at a cost that we can tolerate as you say it does give us the flexibility yeah and I think that reflects the the optionality comment as well and it just picking up on that point it it may well be that one size doesn't fit all and different parts of the country transfer at a different rate using different methods so it may be that de-blend just has a few uses for a few of our sets in the country who knows at this point you know we're very very early on in just really flexing what is there to test the options yeah I think that's an interesting point and was certainly one of the conclusions of the pathways to net zero report that we are that that scenario of 2050 might be a quite different from today in terms of being a more fragmented or regionalized system as you say de-blending presents a new range of options which might lead to differences around the country so another point that's coming up quite strongly in in the the comments as well the voting is reducing the transition risk and again I think that links to the optionality point yeah and I think that's that's an interesting one because if we start creating hydrogen in the country the more that we can actually take on to the network without introducing any risk in the network it's a safer conversion as we're going and it promotes hydrogen to come onto the network as we've already seen we're going to need a lot of hydrogen so the worst thing possible would be to say we want it we want it we want it and then say we can't take it so if we've got deep that we can control things that would certainly de-risk okay let's move on to the next question that we have for you all so the next the second question here is what are the challenges that you see with de-blending so again if possible just a word or a few words to describe what you see is that the main challenges from what you know and from what you've heard today cost so cost certainly seems to be the the biggest factor issues of purity and gas quality lack of lack of laws and regulation is perhaps something that we haven't touched on to too great an extent would there be specific issues there in relation to de-blending or was that part of the the wider consideration of new regulation and legislation that might be required for the the role of gas going into the future I think that that's an interesting one because we are if we're going to be doing de-blending we are entering a processing phase of the gas and I'm sure we're going to have to have a look at what our license says and it will probably challenge some some aspects so I think there are some some more legal aspects that we would need to look at as as we roll out hydrogen anyway and actually all the boundaries that we see in the current structure the right ones may need some movement of the boundaries and a similar point in terms of a sort of a peripheral but important issue to to some of the technological issues or technical issues we've been discussing today is the the business models or or how this how de-blending would be priced and and the role of sort of consumers paying for that is that something that's been thought about not at this point and you know from from our point of view we are very much looking at the technical aspects with it we would then have to engage with the wider market to look at the the cost aspects and how that would be distributed and how it be rolled out ultimately because there would be quite a sizable cost to introduce the facility but if it's only supporting the roll out as Lloyd sort of described at the start that you put a de-blend facility in to almost protect some the assets as you bring hydrogen to them once that area gets up to a hundred percent hydrogen your de-blend assets are no longer needed so is there a concept whereby you move those facilities downstream so that you you convert as you go and you actually re-utilise those facilities so you don't end up with a stranded asset from a capex point of view. We've actually support some of Lawman's comments about you know standardising the build and could we skid mount it or move it around in that sense just some ideas there. And I think that's interesting to think about the the long-term cost profile where perhaps there's those additional costs for a certain period of time until there is a hundred percent hydrogen in parts or all of the network and a further exercise to map how that cost profile changes over time would be something to address the point that most people have identified as the challenge there in terms of cost. As you say that's going to be different to different points of the pathway. I think that's all the responses coming in it seems to be hovering around the 30 mark. Many thanks to that that's it's really important to us to get interaction and engagement on this issue and to understand benefits and challenges that those of you on the line see that can certainly help influence out our further thinking and work done to address some of these issues. The third question that we wanted your thoughts on if we can bring that up on the screen is other opportunities. So you're no longer bound to your three words or less you can use as many words as you want. We're really keen to understand what other opportunities you think the networks need to consider in relation to de-blending. As I said this might be helpful in indicating future work or future directions for work on de-blending to take thinking about other areas to to link up with other network work that's going on. So first a first opportunity maybe something to discuss while some other comments are being typed in. So how can you guarantee you get the hydrogen to where it needs to go? Tony Lloyd is that something that you've thought of or considered in work to date? That was sort of what I alluded to in the next steps of the project which is looking at a modelling how this might work on the actual network. But it is a very complex system so there's a lot of work done to manage gas quality and movement and the network in the moment. So trying to transition that knowledge and experience into how we manage hydrogen on the network is going to be quite interesting. Thanks. I think that comment on the top there in terms of working to standardise the process to reduce costs, reproducibility, yeah. Matching de-blend with CCGT needs. Getting lots of comments now. Safety confidence, certainly a paramount issue. These are actually disappearing off my screen. Who carries liabilities? We were mentioning the legal issues and related issues to that. Standards and legislation. Yeah, some really good feedback here and it's a shame they're dropping off the bottom of the screen but this is exactly what we're looking for. What haven't we looked at that we really need to consider? We can go back up the screen. I was confident they weren't lost but I think that point about the biggest opportunity is to minimise the amount of de-blending is a really important one. As we've seen this is one tool in the potential arsenal. If it is expensive you only want to be using it very frugally. So I think that's a really good point unless there's some very, very clever person out there that can figure out how to do this much, much cheaper. And please do come forward if you're offline. I'm all ears, yeah. Yeah, well just to echo Tony's comment there. This is really valuable comments and much appreciated. So certainly following today we'll take those comments on board and keep you all updated on further work in this space. And on that issue that's actually where I want to move on to next. So continuing without our theme of sort of opportunities and to discuss some of the ongoing work and gas network projects that link to de-blending. We're now going to hear from three more speakers to discuss the Future Grid project. We're going to hear from Tom Neill, Mark Danta on the H21 Microgrid and Nancy Thompson on LTS Futures. So Tom, I think it's over to you. Thanks Tom. So yeah, so we've just got one slide if Katie can move through. So I think really what we wanted to do in this section is just to sort of summarize some of the key work that's going on with the networks at the moment and picking up on the point about the coordination. It's interesting that there's interactions between all three of these projects in different ways. So try not to steal the thunder from the next two speakers who have some interaction with this. I just wanted to give a bit of an overview of the Future Grid project that we're currently developing. So it's an ambitious programme of work that's seeking to build a hydrogen test facility, an offline facility, using decommissioned assets from the NTS, the National Transmission System, and that's up at DMV's Spade Add-in Facility in Cumbria. And so it's actually building on some facilities that H21 are developing and that Mark will tell you about just after me. And we're looking at this to be able to allow us to have a facility where we can test hydrogen alongside a number of our key assets and look at blends of sort of two, 20 and 100% to look at the impacts they have on the network. But actually what that is doing is providing us with a platform then to start to develop further testing and trialing. So as you can see sort of we've got a planning phase going on at the moment, the pathway to Future Grid. And we're currently working on an NIC, a network innovation competition bid, which is our phase one to build the test facility. But as part of the programme, phases two and three look at actually expanding out the potential of this test rig to allow importantly in sort of phase two, de-blending trials to be considered. So the work that we've done today, as you can see in a number of the questions and challenges that we have, very much looking at the opportunity to look at some testing of those different technologies to tackle some of those problems and some of those issues, as well as looking at the impact of hydrogen with operating compressors. And then more widely, actually this rig, and I think you'll see from the talk that Mark will give you shortly around the H21 facilities as well combined provides us with an opportunity potentially to have a representation of the UK gas network in an offline facility, allowing us to test more assets, more technologies and challenge more issues that we may have in sort of transitioning over to hydrogen. So it's a really exciting space and sort of a real good opportunity that's facilitating potentially more work and more opportunities. And so as I said at the moment, we're very much on the on the sort of bid for the first phase to build a facility, but very much what we're looking at the moment as to where phase two and three could take us and the outputs from today are absolutely fantastic in helping to inform that. That's all I really wanted to sort of say on that one, Tom. So whether we're passing straight on to Mark for H21. Yes, please, straight over to Mark. Okay, thanks, Tom and Tom. And just want to touch on two of the projects we've got ongoing with H21. Also, there's a suite of things we're managing in terms of the blending and the 100% hydrogen. So if you move on to the first slide, please. So as part of the High Deploy 2 project, which is building on what's been developed and trialling at Keel, we've got the first live network trials for the 20% blend, which we're running out of the low thorny site up at Gateshead, which has been touched on earlier. And that is part of a bigger overall plan that's been implemented and managed by Keith Owen, who spoke earlier, the integral site. So that's working with ourselves, Northern Power Grid, Northumbrian Water 3, Newcastle Uni. But we're also looking at the first step of trying to get an insight into using and touching and feeling the appliances. So we've, in the planning process of having two semi-detached houses built up at Lowthornley, and we've been speaking with the various appliance manufacturers for fires, cookers, spoilers, as well as the new hydrogen flowmeters. So that's proposed to hopefully be built by the end of this year, 2020. We're also looking at the Spade Adam site as well. So if you want to move on to the next slide, please. So Spade Adam, we've already had some work commenced as part of our phase one. Keith touched on it in his presentation in terms of the consequence testing, which is used to inform the QRA. We are just at the start of construction of our phase two, which is an NIC funded project, which is looking at network operations. So to commence that work, we engage with HSE. They reviewed 700 plus of the network procedures for operations and maintenance. And we're just finalising a master test plan that will be used to develop and control the tests that we've got planned for on the microgrid, as Tom mentioned. So I appreciate it's quite a small picture in front of you, but in the distance, just behind where it says demo grid, those are the three houses that DNV built as part of our phase one. And we plan to fit some appliances in those. Under the phase two, where it says demo grid, we're planning to replicate the various pressure tiers and configurations we've got in the distribution network. So the median pressure, intermediate pressure and low pressure. And as you can see, we've got a control building area. We'll be managing all the testing. We've got a HP reservoir, which National Grid have kindly donated some high pressure pipe that we're using as storage bullets. And we're just, the idea is that we're trying to replicate the various operations and maintenance procedures that we use and seeing if we can do that in a similar way with hydrogen, such as purging, venting, flow stopping techniques, you bagging off, we can do new connections, as well as other things like can we still use the same tools, the PPE. And all that work will also inform the training that's going to be required for our next intermediate phase, which is an unoccupied trial on part of the grid, which we've luckily managed to secure a part of an abandoned part of the network down near Red Car, Middlesbrough. As Tom has alluded to, the idea is we've on with construction this year, with testing commencing back end of this year, mid through to mid 2021. The plan is that the future grid, grid, NGO building would then link into that so that we can have, as again, Tom said, an end to end mock network that we've got from injecting the natural grass through to using it at the homes. All this work, to give a bit of a picture, is all coordinated across all the networks, so all four GDNs and National Grid are part of our phase two, H21 project. And there's a number of groups that have been set up with BASE and all that say, all the networks have representatives on that. It's helping us move forward to the next phase, which is phase three of our project, which is the live trials. And we're hoping, you know, as part of this is to gain all the evidence required for the safety case. Okay, I'll hand over to Nansi or Joe. Hello, Nansi's on. Hi, Nansi. Okay, are you ready? Shall I just go ahead? Yes, please do. Thanks, Nansi. Okay. Hi, I'm Nansi Thompson. I'm from SGN. Sorry, I've only just joined. I don't actually work Friday, so I've just said doing this as a favour, so sorry if I do any repetition from what's already happened already this morning. I'm just going to talk about the future of the LTS, the projects that we've been doing and hoping to do in the future. I've worked for SGN for like nearly four years now, and my background is a pipeline integrity engineer on high pressure transmission pipelines. So this project was kicked off actually when I was on maternity leave and it looks at repurposing the LTS network, so that's everything higher than seven bar for SGN. So that's for Scotland and for the southern networks. Sorry, I'm just trying to hide my notes. So it was looking, the first exercise was a desktop desktop exercise with HSL to assess the scientific and regulatory feasibility of repurposing the LTS for hydrogen and CO2. So the scope didn't include PRSs, it was just pipelines itself. We've actually got a mothball pipeline, the Granton to Grangemouth pipeline, which we asked HSL to also do a case study on and they also did a couple of other pipelines that were similar age, similar grade, similar wall thickness to see what further work, all the gaps that they'd identified in the literature review and how they would apply to actual pipelines in the real life scenario. So the first phase has shown that further testing needs to be done and further work, but a significant percent of the SGN LTS network consists of relatively low strength pipeline grade, operate a low stress and could be repurposed for hydrogen. Obviously integrity assessments and risk assessments and further testing is required, but it's looking like a large percent of our network is going to be able to be repurposed. That this is, if you were to build a hydrogen pipeline today, it would be, it would look similar to an LTS pipe. So we held a workshop in February with all of the GDNs, National Grid, HSE, BASE were there and some subject matter experts as well, some pipeline experts. So this is just to really share the knowledge and so also Lloyd Mitchell was there and presented on the work that National Grid had been doing. So we're sharing the knowledge, identifying the gaps that we'd identified in both the work that NTS had been done and also on the LTS and then exploring any other gaps in the workshops. So then we compiled, if we could go to the next slide, yeah, so then we come, oh no not that, so just the one before, the one with the gaps on, yeah that one. So we compiled all the gaps together into like work packages. So this is with that material where there was gaps that we obviously missed in the pressure reduction stations because that wasn't part of the scope, inspection maintenance and repair and also the QRA. So if you were, the material work packages is by far the biggest. So there's quite a lot of overlap with these work packages. So if I just want to give you an example now for something like if you wanted to understand the effect that hydrogen has on an acceptance criteria, so that could be like a 6% dent or 80% wall thickness for like low stress pipelines and high effects P11. So that's all understanding how the hydrogen, you know, how the hydrogen diffuses into the metal and could potentially cause hydrogen embrittlement. So this could then affect the, we also know that when we have to inspect the pipeline that there's going to be an increased flow rate. So that could have the effect on the speed of the pig and how things can, how defects can be detected. And then also at the moment there's no option for a live repair on a hydrogen pipeline. So need to do some further testing on what live repairs can be done, what live repair options are there for hydrogen pipelines. And the reason for this is just due to the increased risk of an ignition of hydrogen, if hydrogen is released. So it was kind of just to show the slide to show you how all the gaps and work packages that we've pulled together, how they all overlap and how we need to like do the work together, like simultaneously and collaboratively. So if you just want to go to the next slide. So we set up the IGM LTS futures group, which all the GDNs and national grid are members of. And this is where we started off doing some work. So this looking at repurposing or you know the change of use and the repurposing of the TD1 standards and TD13 standards. But really the next phase is designed to develop the safety and technical practical evidence that we need to support the use of hydrogen in the LTS and the NTS. So the work packages that we've proposed really underpin many aspects of decarbonising the pathway. So feed into the safety network safety and impact that will provide the evidence for 2023, securing the NTS and LTS assets and providing technical input to ensure when we try to decarbonise the decarbonisation of industrial clusters can be delivered. What the roll out what the role of the LTS and NTS is in the system transformation and also how that has an impact on the hydrogen roll out and also the green recovery. And then if you could go to the next slide. Just conscious of time and yeah, sorry. Intervene here to begin to wrap up the session, but many thanks. And as I said, it was my fault that things overran there. Just to thank Tom, Mark and Nancy for those really useful overviews of some of the network projects underway that link to and will take forward that lending that we were speaking about. Before I pass to Tony to wrap up, I'd just like to thank all those speakers and to all of you on the line for your comments and questions. Many thanks for joining us today and over to Tony. Yeah, just quickly because I'm very conscious of time and many of you have to go off to other meetings. Just echo my thanks for everybody joining us. I will just stress the blend is one option that we're working on here. So it's really good that we're able to actually share this with you and get your feedback. We've heard from all parts of the market for various needs. We've heard from offshore looking at the existing capability out there. We've identified cost and scale as an issue. So I'm all ears that people have got ideas to decost and standardize this. Let's see if we can innovate and come up with some good solutions. My key takeaway which a number of people highlighted was the need for hydrogen to prove these use cases and technology. We need lots of it and we need it soon. But I guess most fundamentally I didn't hear of any showstoppers through the conversation that we've had today. So that's good news. So thank you very much for joining us. The slides will be available afterwards and there will be a recording of the session available as well. So thanks everybody and see you soon. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you.