 there. Are you able to see? Yeah. Okay. Martin Weinstein. Yeah. Martin, I need to update these videos. Great. Okay. Yeah. So I'll go ahead and kick off. I think everybody who's attending. Yeah. So for those who, this is the first call, I want to quickly note that we follow the hyperledger antitrust policy and also the hyperledger code of conduct. So if this is your first call, please review those. Usually it's customary when I open up these calls to see if there are any participants that are here for the first time to please raise your hand and introduce yourself. I'd love to hear a little bit about how you found out about us and where your subject matter expertise is, what your interest is. Is there anybody on the call for the first time? Sounds like no. Okay. All right. So I'll run through just a couple quick announcements. We have actually been invited Bert, Bertrand Rue and I have been invited to participate in the IWA interwork alliance working group that's focused on developing a carbon emissions token system standards for carbon emissions tokenization. So that's pretty exciting. And it's definitely relevant to the work that we're doing. We're also in the process of, for those of you who are on the presentation two weeks ago from Guardian and the HR Foundation, we're looking into exploring how to integrate the Guardian into the climate accounting solution that we've developed for tracking emissions across scope three. And we'll be having a conversation this week about that. So that's a potentially really useful tool that could help us kind of move forward with some of the development that we've done. Are there any other announcements before I introduce Alexi and hand it over? Did you put links to those things in the chat? I did not. The links to the interwork alliance. I'm happy to do that. I'm really excited to have Alexi here today. He is the co-founder and CEO of evercity.io. I have had the opportunity to see one of his presentations before. It's a critical piece of infrastructure and I think just a really interesting application around Web 3 and open source for green finance democratization. And with that, Alexi, I'll just hand over the floor to you and allow you to share your screen one moment. Yeah, sure. Thanks a lot, Sherrod. You see, for this conversation, I would prefer maybe to have a more lively discussion and stuff around the slides and stuff because I think it's very important for us to understand where this whole revised space is coming from, what is important what we should consider while building the applications and stuff. So how many of you guys are builders, people who are actually building the stuff? Maybe how can we understand that? Maybe you can raise hands or give me some kind of another sign because I really want to better understand the audience and how to frame the discussion today. Yeah, maybe raise hands. Yeah. Okay, we have one builder. Great. Ken Bush. Ken Bush is a builder too. Okay, so we have two builders. That's amazing. Nice. Three builders. Elizabeth is also building some. Four builders. Okay. The hands are coming. Nice. Okay, then thanks for raising your hands, guys. Nice meeting you. So then who has some kind of sustainability background? Can you also share and raise your hands then? Anyone who was involved in sustainability before? Okay. Even sustainability projects that take place or is a domain sustainability? It could be both, you know, but mainly domain sustainability and stuff like that. So I want to understand who is coming from this direction here. What environmental sustainability? Okay, that's amazing. So we have one really cool expert who has both backgrounds and that's pretty rare. So congrats on that, Elizabeth. And what have you been doing before in sustainability? Elizabeth, I think that question was for you. Oh, you're on mute, Elizabeth. Oh, building? So I'm building a lifetime comprehensive environmental impact calculator that connects to a carbon token market and carbon, I have a whole carbon standard, carbon token standard that I sent out to Vera and ICBCM back in September, October of last year. So I'm trying to build a transfer energy. Thanks, Elizabeth. But my question was referring to your previous sustainability background. So can you share a little bit? Oh, that's environmentally sustainability. So I'm a certified forest steward. I developed a forest. I actually developed a plan to restore acreage of native forest and was actually on the land doing native forest studies in restoration for about 10 years. Okay, that's amazing. Amazing background and a very interesting story. I'm quite curious, you know, what, you know, how you came across blockchain, but let me then first tell you my story so you can better understand who I am and where I'm coming from. And then we can discuss more on the topic of today's meeting. So I started my career in actually commodity trading in Geneva in Switzerland. And that was very interesting because it showed how goods are moving, you know, how a financial system works, but never brought any impact. And on the contrary, right? I couldn't really understand why we need to trade all those oil commodities and sometimes really trading like thin air and making money, which didn't bring like any impact and didn't make any sense to me. But and that was like 15 years ago. But thanks to that company, I came across CO2 trading and European CO2 trading market. And it was a very interesting presentation about hedging strategies on European CO2 trading market, which was a 100 page presentation made by one of the traders. And that really opened up like a very interesting market for me. And I realized that it's something more than just, you know, some derivatives and some trading. So I came across climate change then as a big threat to humanity. And it really amazed me how important it is and how, you know, how actually not enough our actions are and war at this point. So I quit this company and started my own organization, which was a carbon fund. And this carbon fund developed climate projects, nature based, but also looked at technology based solutions and projects. And so we started working with big multinational corporations like Alcoa, Union Lever, and PepsiCo and Bloomberg and many others, helping them to actually understand their sustainability risks, their emission reductions potential. And maybe you know that saying that reduce what you can and offset what you can. So that's what we were helping them with back then. It was more than 12 years ago already. So it was pretty, you know, pretty early also for carbon markets. And clients had all sorts of motivations to buy carbon offsets, not only kind of, you know, what we see now, but a lot of marketing, a lot of GR, a lot of other things that actually drives the demand back then. And then we started to get global, we started to participate in the UN climate conference format in some of the other UN associations and initiatives like UN Global Compact. It's an organization which unites a lot of businesses on the agenda of sustainable development. And by the way, Science Based Targets and this kind of thing. So actually UN Global Compact is one of the global organizations that actually promoted, you know, Science Based Targets and carbon offsetting and stuff like that. And also some of the others organizations. So we went to this global level. We were full of enthusiasm. And we thought everyone really wants to save the world. But we realized maybe it's not the case for everyone. So as I mentioned, there were all sorts of other motivations of buyers of carbon credits and stuff like that. And also there were and still there are many inefficiencies which I will cover in a few minutes. So after that, after Paris climate conference, which was like the really historical one because the Paris Agreement was adopted. And you may know right what the Paris Agreement is, it limits the global warming or at least tries to and provides new mechanisms for carbon financing. And this was largely based on the Kyoto Protocol, as you know. And Kyoto Protocol is largely based on previous initiatives like the US Initiative for you know, those controlling the Sulfur emissions and trying to actually solve the acid brain problem. And that really worked out. So now Paris Agreement is another iteration of those systems of those markets. And so the voluntary carbon market actually, I would say was a spin off or is a spin off of Kyoto Protocol because everything that we're using right now on the voluntary carbon market, those methodologies that we're now trying to digitize all of the processes and stuff, they all actually come from basic Kyoto Protocol mechanisms and ideas. So I just recently was in Denver at a carbon, like, sorry, a climate forum for ReFi startups. And some of the startups approached me asking to validate their digital methodologies and stuff, their ideas. So what I recommended them to do is to look at CDM, which is Clean Development Mechanism under Kyoto Protocol, which actually rolls out all of the key parts that should be included in any methodologies, whether it's a digitized one or it's analog one. But it's one of the key sources of this knowledge that is used widely on the voluntary market by Vera, by Gold Standard, by many, many others. So if you're trying to build something and you're new to climate finance and stuff, so my first message to you today would be to stand on the shoulders of giants rather than trying to create everything from scratch. So there were a lot of smart people who dedicated their lives to this industry, to this knowledge. And it all started, of course, not in the 90s, when Kyoto Protocol was actually introduced, but it actually started earlier, you know, in the 70s, I guess, and it all comes, is connected with the Austrian Economic School and Ronald Koos and the concept of including transactional costs into the pricing of goods and services. So that was one of these basic ideas that actually is, you know, developing more and more. And we're now seeing not only carbon but biodiversity attempts to include biodiversity into economic relations of economic agents. So just look into that, look at what have been developed by previous generations and people who really, you know, dedicated their lives to that and try to innovate based on that and not to create something really, really new unattached from the reality because, you know, even those artists like Malevich, for example, who actually introduced this black square, he actually learned how to paint and he was, you know, well educated in painting, so he could paint you everything, literally. And then he painted the black square. So it's kind of the case for Rify and if we want to build something meaningful and something that people will use as an open source around the globe, then it should be aligned with core values, principles and processes that were developed back then. So that's a very important thing. But to go back to my story, we started after Paris Climate Conference, we started to look at innovations and invested in some of the companies. Some of it was hardware, some of it was software and one of the companies actually made a breakthrough. The company was called Dao IPCI and IPCI stands for Integrated Platform for Climate Initiatives. And the team behind that and the concept behind that was really visionary because this Dao was established actually in 2016 and it actually facilitated the world's first carbon credit transaction in 2017 and I think March 2017. So that was officially acknowledged by the World Bank people, by the UN, the company and myself. We were invited to several events around the globe. So one of them was actually Innovate for Climate in Barcelona, which was the leading carbon innovation conference and still is, but because of COVID, they've hosted two conferences online. So I guess it was not that viral, but actually that was the main innovation carbon conference. And we met with all of the market players, we met with the heads of standards, David Antonioli from Vira, we met with gold standard people, we met with all the exchanges and project developers. So the discussion started actually in 2017 and if someone is saying that REFI was born like one or two years ago, it might be true in terms of the massive movement, but the first REFI project started to pop up even earlier, so 2016, even 15. And that was a major breakthrough, but that was another learning that no one really was waiting for us. And the market was pretty oligopolistic by its nature. So the main players and they're still there, controlled the largest shares of the market. And if you learn the economic theory that you know that oligopoly and monopoly are not the most effective systems of distribution of resources, so that's same case for carbon and other markets. And people back then were really afraid of blockchain, they were afraid of ICO waves, they were afraid of new technologies, and of course, they were afraid of being phased out of the market. And the message that we brought to them, you know, we had the wrong messaging because we came there, we were surrounded by all of these people and we said, now guys, blockchain is going to disrupt you all and we will not need you, so sorry, we don't need auditors, we have digital MRV, we don't need project developers, we have digital methodologies, we don't need, you know, literally anyone just project owner, owner of the land and the end user. So all of you guys, we don't need you. And that was a very bad messaging, you know, and it turned out to be actually a mistake. So that's another learning that I want to communicate, you know, from my experience, that even now we don't have to you know, phase out everyone and disrupt and just exclude everyone. Because if you start building REFI projects and you start, you will start having your first clients or partners, you know, somewhere in Africa or, you know, in other parts of the world, you will understand how important it is to have the domain expertise, the industry expertise, the methodology, wise expertise to be on the ground, you know, to talk to these people and etc, etc. It doesn't really work in a fully automated manner and no one has really proved the opposite, you know, right now. Everything that we learned right now from talking to more projects and stuff, successful players, either they had the expertise before, or they were not afraid to have partners to get their feet on the ground, you know, and talk to, to everyone with whom they're trying to make business, it's like in any other industry. So, you know, REFI or, you know, climate finance is not any different from any other industry. So you either have to come from the industry or you need to have, you know, your experts ready there, and be based on the principles that were developed before in a way, but in a way, disrupt, but not saying that we don't need everyone because, you know, from what we see now, we still need all of the players that are currently there, but we can make their life easier. And open source is something that can really play a big role here, a huge role. So I want to make a short pause here. And maybe you have some other opinions and statements or questions regarding like my experience and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a question. You talked about the messaging that didn't work. I'm curious to hear, and you spoke to it to make the life easier, but what really helped move the needle to kind of achieve buy-in, achieve poop of concept, achieve, you know, early adoption among these, you know, vested, you know, stakeholders that have just been around? Well, you know, Sherwood, that's a very interesting question. And I think in 2017, we just faced this problem that many venture investors are aware of when you're introducing some innovation earlier than it could be adopted by the market, you know. So I think the positioning was wrong. I think people were afraid of blockchain because the ICO thing was really, you know, very viral and loud and stuff. And also, you know, the market was not really moving because carbon markets, guys, I'm not sure how long are you following them? But for more than 10 years, the market was really stable. And it was like, you know, 300 million and 500 million and 400 million and six. So it was growing or not growing. It was like really flat. And it somehow climbed up to a billion. And then, like, we had this twofold growth in the recent years. So I guess this is one of the factors. But, you know, in 2017, I met a guy there in the Innovate for Climate, the core carbon person related to innovations. And what he said to me is like, this thing will come in five years. Because of the reasons I mentioned, also regulation, you know, and the maturity of technology as well. Because back then, technology was not that user friendly. If you remember, you know, MetaMask didn't have the app. And the overall interface was really kind of not that good as now, you know, and that was the case with everything, you know, every part of the blockchain infrastructure. It was like, you know, people are still talking about interfaces and user experience even now, right? But back then, five years ago, it was very basic, very, you know, very generic. So people really need this experience. And I think this is one of the feedback that I also got because just sharing my experience, we had a demo in 2017 for a very big player in the carbon market and we totally failed because of the interfaces. And they just didn't understand the thing, you know, okay, we're doing, taking hash, making a copy, you know, sending it somewhere, some fields. So our developers, they thought it's genius. It's like a breakthrough, and it was. But in terms of user experience, it was nothing. And people just didn't understand what is that, what, you know, how to use it, why, why is it needed to be introduced, you know. So that's another learning that I had, you know, that user experience, user interface is key. And I just returned from Japan, where the customer is not only right, he is God. So I think this is what we need to adopt in the blockchain industry that the customer is God. And we really need to make things really simple, really native, you know, for more people to use it and more companies to use it. So also that was a major fail that, you know, taught me a lot. And now in every city, we're making a very big accent on user interfaces as well. And also for open source, you know, because open source, usually it's something on the GitHub, and it's great if it has documentation. But usually, you know, even documentation is not that good, or it's done for developers. And it doesn't really help others to use the open source code. So on that side, we also need to improve, you know, and have well documented stuff. And ideally, something that Guardian is doing, you know, why I like what they're doing is that they're trying to implement a low code or no code approach to that. And that's what the DAO IPCI project had actually introduced one of these ideas that we had in this DAO IPCI project is that, you know, all of the, you know, everyone should have an opportunity to easily launch and instantly launch their environmental programs and apps on this DAO. And that was the basic concept that we had. And from the very beginning, the concept that the company was open source, so everything was open source. And we really had hard times with some shareholders that were lawyers to explain them that, guys, we're not registering IP, we're doing everything open source. And that's how things sometimes work. And we, you know, show the example of Red Hat and stuff like that. But no one really could understand that. But now the understanding is there. So there are more and more open source projects. And that's what we really need. While doing our open source, we have to think about the user who is God, not only friend or, you know, contributor or someone else, he is actually God because he will need to use it. And that's a very important thing if we want to build open source. So if you have any other quick questions, and I'll jump to the next part of the story and some next outcomes that I want to highlight from my journey in this. Okay, so I assume there are no more questions. So then I can tell you the last part of my story. So, you know, we realize that blockchain and open source is really an enabler for climate finance based on this experience that we had with the first transaction. And we started to participate in the UN protests every year. So we went to the UN climate conference. I missed only one in Morocco. And then I visited all of them. And that was really mind opening experience. Because when we started building open source in this company, I thought, okay, open source, but I didn't really realize why are we doing this open source and who might need it, you know, except for developers, maybe they can do a fork, do something else, blah, blah, blah. So it was very abstract to me because I'm not a developer. And when I started to present these things at the climate conference, and first we started like with a booth about blockchain and stuff like that. Come to us, we have blockchain and cookies and stuff. Yeah, but you know, I'm giving out swag. And that was pretty weird because at the climate conference, there was no other, you know, blockchain company back then in 2017. And people were really interested. So we started to make workshops. We started to make like, you know, press conferences and stuff with some other friends from the climate chain coalition. And this is an organization we established in 2017, which kind of unites more than 400 members from 60 countries around the globe. And tries to somehow, you know, promote blockchain for climate. And I think we've succeeded. And it was officially supported by the UN. But right now the UN person, Masamba, he kind of resigned from the climate chain coalition because they started something bigger in the UN, which is the UN Global Digital Innovation Hub. And I encourage you guys all to collaborate with both the CCC, the climate chain coalition. And if you're lucky, also try to collaborate with the UN Global Digital Innovation Hub. And I know that Martin Weinstein is one of the key people there. So that's a very good entry point to this initiative. So we started to go to co-op. We started to talk to people and we started to make a lot of presentations. So a lot of people came to these presentations. And then I realized why is it important to make open source? Because like once we had a really big room for 500 people, and it was like, not all crowded, but there were a lot of people. And when we stopped, you know, highlighting our use cases and stuff. So we went down to the people and they actually surrounded us. I think it was 2018 or 2019. And these were people from various African countries from South America. And they all surrounded us. And we had like a two hour conversation, which was really insightful for me. And what I learned is that people in these countries, they don't really want the ready solutions that you come, you know, from the global north and supply them something that they need to pay for and just use and pay for high fees and stuff like that. That's what has been happening for a lot of time, you know, and that's what is still happening. Because if you come to co-op, you will see a lot of arguments between people from global north and global south. And what these people are desperately craving for is what it's a quote, you know, they said, we need knowledge and we need technology. We have smart people in Africa, you know, we have smart people in Asia and in South America. We have developers, we have like, you know, energy opportunity to actually build stuff. But what we lack is knowledge and technology. So this is what actually open source can deliver, you know, knowledge and technology. And then you will gain like, you know, thousands and thousands of followers, contributors and stuff like that. If you treat them equally, and if you will be patient to, you know, kind of produce the knowledge and get and also, you know, supply the technology. So people here, they go first and you have to know whom are you building for and ideally, you know, meet these people. So I encourage you to, you know, go to these countries, go to the climate conference or some other formats where you can meet a lot of people from indigenous communities, from, you know, various other industries, project developers, landowners, and talk to them and try to understand their main desires there. And when you understand them, when you look into their eyes, you know, it will be clear for you what you need to do in terms of your, you know, open source applications and how you need to treat them. I can give you an example. I know I have a friend, a French guy, he lived in Africa, in Central Africa for many years, you know. And he also went into their blockchain rabbit hole and stuff. But what he started doing, you know, he started creating like his community with the people he knew there in Central Africa. And, you know, engaging very actively with this community, asking what they need and stuff like that. And now even without blockchain, he created like a huge Discord community where people started to be like very active participants and they don't get any tokens, they don't get any rewards. But they like the way he, you know, treats them as, you know, equal people and just sharing the knowledge and, you know, showing them the benefits and stuff. And of course, there are some rewards because there is a mechanism related to data. So they can go and, you know, capture some data and then sell this data to the users to some kind of, you know, US or development finance institutions, USA, and stuff like that. So he actually created the decentralized data marketplace without blockchain. Just, you know, with the proper kind of attitude, the proper kind of software that these people can use and big part of it is an open source as well. So that's really important to know what the people want and need to talk to them and make this really accessible knowledge and technology. So there are lots of, you know, companies that I know from the core blockchain space, they organize a lot of schools, a lot of hackathons. And that's an opportunity. That's what, for example, African countries really, really need, you know, and not only learn how to code, but learned how to collaborate and co-create together in a very user friendly manner. So that's exactly what is needed. And ending on my story, so based on those many, many conversations with people from around the globe, many insights, we started EverCity two years ago in order to solve the entry barrier problems, the knowledge barrier and the cost barrier that prevent more companies to enter the green finance space to start, you know, raising using green bonds or start issuing carbon credits. So education and making things really simple play a very big role in our company, as well as the open source component. And we have a sustainable finance protocol that we started to create on Polkadot. And now we're continuing on Hidera, so adding Hidera capabilities. And our idea is simple, we want to create a protocol that actually helps to roll out, you know, any apps related to issuance of various green finance instruments. So green bonds, sustainability linked bonds, and also various carbon instruments, we're adding those things to our protocol, where we are collaborating with the guys who want to use them. So for example, we have never worked on the green sukuk side, you know, sukuk is who knows what is green sukuk, by the way, who can tell me. Kind of Islamic law. Right. So that's an Islamic kind of law. Yeah. It has very specific Islamic rules in it, but it's an Islamic debt instrument, actually. So we never expected, but one of the, you know, people just, one guy just contacted me and regarding the protocol and started to build a green sukuk based on what we have built, you know, before and stuff like that. So yeah, that's pretty much about me. And I tried to tell the story with some of the outcomes that I got from, you know, my experience, some failures, some insights from talking to real people. So I hope this can be useful for you, building your own open source software technology. So do you have any questions guys or things that you want to discuss? I have a quick question. This is related to sustainably linked loans and bonds or blended finance. From some of the research that I've done, I've seen that typically the deal sizes, my understanding are like upwards of like $80 million for a typical deal size. Obviously a lot of development projects are much, much smaller in nature. Does every city have a way of kind of fragmenting larger loans into many different loans and being able to serve the ability to kind of scale that large monetary amount to larger numbers of projects that don't need so much, but could definitely use the preferred interest rate. You know, Sherwood, that's a great question. And that's one of the trends that we can cover next, how we can use blockchain technology and also open source. So that's really important. And the situation is that most green finance vehicles like bonds and even loans, they're right now used by really big guys, really big banks, really big corporations. And when these instruments are discussed at the climate conference, there's a lot of skepticism from developing countries that, hey, guys, you just invented something for yourself and now you're playing with it, but we don't actually get any benefit. Or when we actually receive something, the financial conditions are not favorable at all. And that's something that we cannot actually use. So these were the problems. And these problems can really be solved by blockchain. And fractionalization is one thing. And also securitization. So when you actually combine smaller loans, like hundred small loans, and then there is a bank who is issuing a green bond to refinance those smaller loans, that's also a very interesting use case. That's that many in the financial industry are talking about and thinking about. So this is truly one of the opportunities to connect smaller scale projects and huge banks. So if you want to do that, that's one of the directions that you might take. And more importantly, these big banks, big investors, they want to invest, they want to deploy capital. But because of those restrictions, they cannot actually deploy it and they cannot find enough projects. So they desperately need the toolkit that will enable them to work with smaller projects, package them into bigger investment vehicles, do everything in a proper green way. That's very important to work with institutionals. So you have to adhere to those green finance standards, whatever they are. And also it's important for them to accumulate data sources. So everyone is talking about we need the granular data. If we are investing or refinancing those packages with hundred or thousand smaller loans and companies, we need to understand what happens in each of them, right? And get the data almost online in a really timely manner. So that is very important. And that's one way of doing this. But another way of doing this is through new types of mechanisms and new types of investment vehicles. So a lot will come from the DeFi market, actually. And when we look at Klimadal, of course, they might have done a lot of things wrong. And now they're kind of paying for it. So that's what they have to face. But what they did actually, their main innovation is that they breached DeFi mechanisms and green finance markets. And this is, I think, is going to be a trend. Because all of these banks, all of these financial institutions, they're really slow. And adoption really takes a lot of time. So it moves somehow, but it's still not there. And when we talk with these banks and financial institutions, they always value two things, risk and innovation content. And usually, the risk part actually kills most of the innovation content because they want to do just smaller steps, small innovations that will lead to a bigger innovation. And this is not like a disruption. This does not really solve the key problems. It can solve the problem, but we need to get there. But if you heard just yesterday, a new IPCC report was released stating, it's not new. Everyone in Klimadal know that we're kind of doomed already. We're not meeting the Paris Agreement target. So we need to do whatever we can right now to increase climate financing. And that's where actually open source and Web3 can help. Because I think the most exciting trend will be what Klimadal did, but for other instruments as well and for other markets, just combining DeFi mechanisms and DeFi economy and finance with labeled and high-quality green finance. So if we will be able to channel people's kind of greediness in a good way, like high risk profile of crypto investors and stuff like that, if we somehow can connect it with green finance, and not only carbon, but also other credits. And if we make sure that those assets are really making the real life impact with all the methodologies we have with DMRV, with other players verifying this sometimes on the ground and we still need that, then we're going to succeed. And this has a tremendous opportunity for scaling. Because if it could be replicated by other people, users around the globe, if it can bring liquidity to the core protocols that could make this happen, this would be a major victory. And I think the trend that we will be seeing more and more ReFi stuff until the moment where actually DeFi becomes ReFi. And we actually need that. And if we look at ReFi as a new type of financial industry, then we can look, if we want to predict the trends, we can look at traditional financial industry, which is becoming greener and greener. And at some point we'll have to green their whole portfolios. And there are many bank asset managers who have committed to that. So I think DeFi and blockchain will also, at some point we'll realize that it's important because we cannot live as our physical bodies on chain. And we have to take care about what's going on around us. So that's one of the forecasts. And I think that's the most exciting and important thing. But I want to warn you not to go too much into DeFi space because it can be considered a scam. It can actually spoil the whole thing. And that you don't have to do. And that's why all of the statements that I did, it's important to know whom are you doing this for, standing on the shoulders of giants, respecting what has been done, but doing some really cool innovation. And the most disruptive innovation I think will come from intersection of the green part and the DeFi part and also mechanisms and technologies that can be used and replicated in developing countries. And they're opening up right now to that. I think it's the most exciting times right now to innovate because at COP in Egypt, I talked to many African countries and what they actually need, again, they want to start green finance in their countries, raise green finance, but they need technology. And open source is a good way to enter those markets because, again, many people think that if they use your preparatory tech, they will lose their independence. And there will be a vendor law, which is in most cases in a right. In terms of open source, everyone can have win-win situation. And that goes very much in line with the core sustainable development goal values. And the last thing I want to mention is that if you truly build stuff open source, then UN doors will be always open to you. And that's very important because it's where you can meet your fellow builders, fellow users, advocates, governments, literally anyone. And it's really good. So I encourage you to work more with UN agencies. But for that, a big part of your work has to be open source and true open source. When you said, I mean, I've seen your website about the global standards. So for the carbon credit, for example, so are you following a specific like where our gold is? Or there is a separate global standard from United UNC? Could you rephrase the question, please? I didn't case the last one. So you mentioned about the global standards in your website and your talk too. So which global standards are you following? Global standards or UN bodies with whom we are partnering? Is that the specific ones you're following? Yeah. So it depends on the case, you know, indeed, in ESG, in the green finance, there are lots of standards. But if we have a closer look, we'll see that they're leading standards. There's like a high quality cohort of standards. There's like a medium, you know, the most popular standards and stuff like that. So when we're talking about green debt, we're looking mainly at international capital markets association standards, ICMA, and they have a lot of stuff for bonds for loans and stuff like that. We also look at the climate bond standard, which is the most sophisticated green bond standard. And they're pretty open to innovations as well. When we look at, you know, green screening and understanding whether assets are green or not, we'll look at the UTexonomy standard. And there will be more and more regional taxonomies, which actually can tell you what is green and what is not. And when we look at carbon, you know, we also look at the common standards that are there. And we're just trying to make things a little bit kind of better and more efficient. And the last, you know, last product that we presented at COP, were carbon forwards. And in the carbon forwards, we looked at most of the standards and we tried to make this product standard agnostic, not to actually be kind of tied up to one standard, but rather kind of, we looked at most of the standards. And we tried to compare them and see what is similar in all of those standards to actually somehow help to standard ties. So when I was telling to this refined newcomer guys to look at CDM, it's actually something that, you know, we did and we looked at most of the standards and we tried to understand what similar similarities do they have. So in our work, we do a lot of generalization. And this is what I think we need for open source stuff as well, to be really universal. So we don't have to only look at one standard. We have to look at the principles that those standards were using to build themselves and make credible. And when we do that, we will see that most of these standards, they are universal. So that's, I think key when creating open source stuff as well. And that's what I mean when I say that we need to stand on the shoulders of giants. So respect those principles and build on top of them, make them sharper, make them even more efficient. This is what it is. And regarding impact, we also use a couple of impact indicators and also, of course, SDGs. Because SDGs, they are the main global framework for many things. I think SDGs have a lot of potential. I mean sustainable development goals. And you probably may know that they also have targets. So you might also look at targets as well. And for each goal. And what makes SDGs so unique is that every country around the world has agreed on them. And SDGs, along with the Paris Agreement, those are two global frameworks that people around the world share. And they share them without exception. So this makes it a very universal, very useful framework to follow. But the difficulties start to come up when you look deeper into each target and indicators and stuff like that. One quick question. You mentioned this idea of the need for a securitization of smaller impact project sustainability projects. Is there any, to your knowledge, is there anybody making headway in this particular space that we could look at? Is there any, are there any successful models out there or anything off the top of your head? I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot. So, which exactly, so, you know, can you? Yeah, so for example, if you are looking at technology to lower the methane emissions from a oil and gas field, right, and say, you know, that technology is, you know, cost a million dollars, you know, so you want to, you know, develop a way to kind of securitize 90 oil fields to make it interesting to, you know, blended finance, you know, vehicle or sustainable link, the loner bond. Is there anybody or any solutions out there that you've seen that have addressed that sort of issue? And I think there's also like, you know, palm oil, palm oil, but there's a lot of different smaller projects that could be grouped together and secured. Is there any organization or any technology that's making headway in that particular space? Yeah, so first of all, these kind of groupings, they exist even in the carbon world without blockchain. And even in CDM, there were like, you know, aggregated projects and stuff. So again, you know, we can look at this. But if you want to look more at innovations that come from the, you know, climate finance space, I advise you to look at the cases in the climate finance lab. They are really innovative. They don't have specifically like blockchain focus, actually. But they are really cool think tank where you can actually learn a lot about this kind of innovations and what's going on. And I can remember there were some similar projects to what you mentioned, actually. Okay, great. But, you know, what I want to say is that many banks really want to do that, but they don't have too many examples, successful examples. So I think it's a trend that will, you know, will be possible also because of digital technologies and not necessary blockchain. And if you look at the climate finance, you know, use cases that they support, you can find some really interesting things there. Great. Okay. And it's basically because a democratized digital bank would be one that makes investments where the people who are investing into that bank tell them to. And so there wouldn't be any runaway fossil fuel investments, for example. And so I put in the chat questions about, you know, helping to find these banks so that we can invest in them so that we can see if they're democratic and what are some of the problems that could happen, like with digital banks. Yeah, so yeah, so I guess there are there are some of these banks, but also there are old school banks and we need to do something with them, right? So we always shared the approach that we should actually work with these guys, but just like tell them what needs to be done, you know, highlighting the benefits. That's what that's what I was doing during my whole life, you know, I was always telling them, you know, hey, guys, you know, this is how we can do it. This is very exciting. This is very innovative. This is good for your marketing. It's good for impact. And depending on what they were interested in most, I was like highlighting this kind of thing. So I believe that we need not only to work with green banks, but also we need to transform, you know, the legacy banks into green banks, and they're doing actually a lot, but we need to help them somehow. And that's why I think, you know, what Hyperledger is doing is a super important work. And, you know, I support this approach very, very much. But also we need to leave as an example, right? Because when Klimodal and some other folks, you know, they did some remarkable things and achievements, then the legacy players, they started to move, you know, and started to think, okay, we can do it. You know, that's something that is important. But going back to your question, so you want me to address this complaint from Africa, the digital banks can freeze your funds, right? That's the first question. Yeah. So what can I say, you know, we've seen that banks are freezing funds and not only digital ones, right? Centralized banks are freezing a lot of funds as well. And we know a lot of recent cases, right? No need to tell you, I can just show you my cup. So, you know, this is actually one of the benefits of decentralization. And if we can truly make, you know, decentralized protocols for the value exchange, like Bitcoin, right, we will never, Bitcoin can never freeze your funds, right? So that's pretty cool. And I guess the answer would be, again, open source, decentralization, building new types of financial, you know, mechanisms that would be actually connected to the real world by the real impact that they're making. And that's, you know, goes back to the trend that highlighted the something that we need to do. So I guess if you talk to these guys again, you can, you know, give them example of Silicon Valley Bank, and then an example of Bitcoin, that no one can really freeze your Bitcoin, you know, funds and stuff. So that's, that's, I think, a good argument. But in general, none of the banks can guarantee that they will not freeze your funds, because there is another saying, when you're sending your money to the bank, it's not your money anymore, it's the money owned by the bank. And the bank is actually using this money, you know, as they want. So they can lose it, and they can be subject to any kind of issues by the government, any regulation and stuff. And it's there, there is no safe heavens now. That's the reason for my second question. Because you should be able to just go ahead and click on, you know, open an app and click on, you know, I want to find a greener bank than the one that I'm invested in that just decided to go for fossil fuel investments. So I would like that app to say, okay, well, I found a green bank that will do the swap that you're trying to do. So I'm, I'm offering my bank a swap, you know, I'll take your bad, your bad notes on housing, I'll take your housing problems away, you give them the mortgage back to them, and then I'll give you my carbon credit. It's a three-way swap, a Byzantine swap. And I'm wondering, you know, how do I find a bank willing to do that? There's got to be an app out there for that, because this is a tool of democracy that you find that you find the government, you find the bank, you find whatever it is that you need, because it's going to listen to you and, and do the swap that you need. But why do you even need a bank in this system? Because, because I had never found, I have searched and never found anyone who has housing nearby willing to swap it for carbon credit directly. They want dollar bills. Okay. But you think that the bank will help you to find this kind of? It would be any bank that is interested in my carbon credit to decrease, that they would be able to decrease their carbon footprint. And in exchange, they would swap the housing, the mortgage, they've got people who are, you know, bailing on their mortgages and defaulting, and they want to get rid of that bad paper. Well, that's interesting. I know a couple of green banks in the US, actually. So I can maybe send to you. This year, if you click on the first link, there's, they scroll way down, they've got a link to a list of green banks. And it might be on there. And there's also a link to another link to more green banks. So the thing is, is that there's, there's got to be an app that tells me which of these is open to the, this Byzantine swap. Yeah, I think we loved it. We love to hear. If you do hear that, I think it'd be really interesting to hear about. You can find that. If anyone's doing that already, that would be my goal, finding somebody who's already done it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, again, building, building on the shoulders, not reinventing the wheel. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's very interesting. You know, on that, on that point, I was listening to that, you know, when it comes to carbon footprints, people love their gigantic home. So in this case, would that swap require the home to be only a so many square feet? Right. And so that they would have to avoid the carbon tax on the square footage of their home. And I would be looking for an empty lot so I could build a tiny home on their 200 square feet. Yeah, I don't know. People on the phone, if you ever, when that subject is broached about carbon footprints, nobody wants to talk about the size of their home. It seems to be a a red flag. Nobody will discuss it. They'll buy this EV that's powered by renewables and they'll put up a 10,000 square foot home as if they have no carbon footprint. And I just curious, has anybody also seen that dichotomy where people will not discuss carbon footprints with these massive homes? Absolutely. And then they condemn the homeless who have a zero carbon footprint. I mean, even some of the advocates that are, you know, media types, we won't name any names, but we know about who are advocates for carbon reduction have massive homes or they have two or three homes. And it just seems one of those areas that may never get addressed properly is the massive carbon footprint on these, these mansions, but people who are out there advocating, we get we have to lower carbon footprints have these massive homes with two or two or three. I always find that interesting. There's never a discussion on that point. This is the first time I've seen something around that around that topic at all. That's a big integration into the Tarpini missions network that Cytan's been working on because they're already, they already have square footage building set up in there. Interesting. That's open source. Well, great. Well, Alec, I want to be cognizant of your time. You've you've been so generous with it. And this has been very engaging. And definitely a kind of diversion from what we normally see where it's just a presentation. I've really enjoyed how you've kind of engaged with us and shown or shared really interesting history and just all around really interesting perspective on something that's very near and dear to us. So I want to thank you for your time and thank everybody else who brought somebody really great questions. This has been a really fascinating past hour. So thank you everyone very much. Yeah, thank you so much. I hope that was, you know, kind of maybe useful for you. I tried to make it really more engaging and entertaining and just tell you everything I learned about open source and how to build it for climate and environmental use cases. So I hope this was useful. And if you want to dive in some more details, you can always contact me and we can have like a in depth session on everything that was mentioned. Would love to. Yeah, that sounds fantastic. I've got to do some some thinking and some unpacking and probably watch this again, but I really enjoyed it and have been touched soon. Thanks a lot. Have a nice day. Thank you. Enjoy to be here today. Thank you. Thanks for the great questions. Thanks everyone. Thank you.