 Alright. It's great to be back. I'm Phil Abernathy. I live in Melbourne at the moment, but work out of Vienna, because a lot of my work is in the Northern Hemisphere. And Bangalow was where I grew up. So I'm coming home in many ways. I spoke here around five years ago. And today we're going to talk about my experiences over the last, I would say, 12, 13 years in coaching and see if I can share some of my ideas and thoughts there and what good and bad experiences and see where we go. So don't we all feel like this sometimes, you know? When we walk into a room and walk into a training group, you see, yeah, the teams know so much more than you as a coach sometimes about the subject matter that they're busy with. And you walk in there and you think, okay, what am I going to do? How am I going to coach and what's the best way to tackle this? So I'm going to break it down and take it from there. In 2007, I was brought into a company called Sunco in Australia. And the message there was, oh, we need to start a transformation, set up a transformation team and get going. So the whole concept of coaching in Agile was very strange. Even just 10, 12 years ago, we have all the belts taken up by the Six Sigma guys and girls. And Lean has their own sort of practitioners. So I guess Agile came up with this term, what are we going to call our gurus and the people who teach the people? And they came up with the word coach, which was a very nice word in its sense that it positioned it quite freely. But it has a lot of connotations because as you will see as we went through the whole process, we started getting this sort of connotation happening. So are we a life coach style of person? Or are we a sports coach kind of person? And it's very, very different. So to understand the models that we can adopt, you have to understand the purpose of coaching. So the purpose of coaching as I see it and the teams that I've worked with is about creating high performing teams that deliver great business results. You're not there to teach them and coach them stand ups and sit downs and all the rest of it. That's not important. What's important is the business results. So you're going in there and the two models are very, very different. The life coaching model is very much based on a grow model, you could say, which is you set your goals, you look at your reality, you look at your options and then you find out the way forward. So how many coaches have we got in the room here? People have coached. Okay. So I'm in a great company and haven't you felt sometimes? Do I use that model where ask these leading questions? You can't be directive. You have to ask leading questions. But that's not what Alex Ferguson does. Imagine him trying to coach Manchester United with leading questions. How would you like to kick the ball? Yeah. Would you like to? Oh, yeah, try it. Try it this way. And now you try. That does not work. And remember, we're also going into a team. And if you look at the shoe hard read process, most of the coaches walk in when they're in the shoe process in the shoe stage, which is they don't know much about agile. They've got years of maybe waterfall experience, maybe years of no waterfall experience. And then suddenly you're in there. So what do you do? And if you go in with asking open questions to get them to develop it, you could have a problem. They do expect you to tell them what to do. And there's a sports coaching model, which are very directive, very clear, et cetera. And if you look at football teams or basketball teams or whatever, they've got the coach and then they've got specialists. They've got somebody to look at the psychological part. They've got somebody to look at, you know, the movement and the stretching and everything of that sort. There are specialist coaches under them. So how many of you here would consider yourselves DevOps coaches, technical coaches? Wow. Not one hand. One, two. Fantastic. Fantastic. We've got two hands. And previously we had maybe 25, 30 hands up. So what does that say? That says when you go into a team, and most teams, if you're coaching a technical team, so let's assume we're doing app dev teams, application development teams. Because when you're coaching an infrastructure team, it's very different. If you're coaching a sales team, because Agility now has jumped the whole boundary of IT, you could be coaching a marketing team, it's very different. But let's just talk about an application development team. You need DevOps experience. You can't get better, faster, cheaper, and therefore happier customers, shareholders, and employees if you don't train them in DevOps. You just can't. Forget it. You can do all the stand-ups and sit-downs, all the retros you want, and you're not going anywhere. Yeah? So how do you do that? You have to be able to get in your specialist coach. So look at this picture. Now the coaching styles vary based on where you are. So if you're coaching, let's say, the team below, that's you. You've been brought in as a coach. You work with the leader and you're coaching the team underneath. So if you look at team one, I've called that team two. And that's the key point here. For every leader in a team, every leader has two teams. They belong, the team under them, I call team two, not team one. And then they're a part of their team. Now very few coaches go in to team one. And team one goes all the way up. And you say, yeah, that's executive coaching. But do you really teach and consider the executive group, team one, as a high-performing team that you need to coach? Almost impossible. I mean, they won't even let you into that circle. Yeah, you can go in and you can talk to the group and they'll invite you. You know, during our operations meeting, we'll have the coach will give you one hour. Yeah, really? So this is our challenge. Now the styles you use as you go up the tree will be more life coaching styles. You try using sports coaching styles to the exec, let's say the executive leadership team, the CEO, the CIO, or the CIO and his or her team. Whoa. First you have to have the permission for that. So most of the coaching takes place down below at the team level. Now do you include the manager or not? So at that level, if you include the manager in team two and you're brought into coach team two, then the sports coaching model, according to me, works much better. But there are a lot of things that you need to set in place in order for that to work. You can't go in straight away and act like the coach. And I'm going to talk to you about those few things. So this has been my go-to book in terms of guidance. It's a fantastic book. If you haven't read it, please do get it. And he talks about his success of the last 27 years and man you and everything. So you can't just go up there and say, I'm here to teach you. Now my whole philosophy right through this, I think, has been that the coaches are absolute leaders. That is what you are. Yes, you have, you're a facilitator once and you're a trainer the next minute and you're a consultant the third minute. Forget all those things. You are a leader. You have to lead the team. Oh, but I haven't been. I'm not the manager. You don't have to be the manager to be the leader of the team. If you do not assume a leading position, if you're not a leader, now that doesn't mean with authority. It can be with respect. Then you're going to struggle. So every single coach that goes in any place, if you're in a sports coaching model or even in a life coaching model, you are a leader. So what does that mean? I've broken down the leadership capabilities which I talk to actual leaders themselves and to coaches and they fall into three buckets. The first is the need to provide absolute clarity of purpose. You have to give your teams clarity of purpose. You have to help them on that journey. And I've had so many coaches are, you know, they come in and they go, well, you know, my team's not clear because their boss is not clear and there's no vision from the product owners and they're struggling with. That's your job. Your job is to help them get that clarity. That means talking to the people outside the team, talking to people in the business, going up, going down, working through, not just working with a team and telling them you need to go and find your strategy. You have to show, not tell. So the first one is that and I'll go into a little more detail with that. The second one is clarity control without controlling. Wow. He used the control word. It's almost become a bad word in Agile. And that's what's doing us a lot of disservice. Imagine leaders not having control. Imagine that. Imagine managers not having control. You're finished. You have to have control. But as Agiles, we're so scared of using this control word. I use it openly and I suddenly see the relief drain into the people there. Oh, my God. I can have control as a manager. Yes. You have to have control, but without controlling. So how do we do that? I'm going to give you a few tips on that. And finally, you have to help them design for flow. It's only you that can do that. It's not about just teaching them the practices. So agility just in brief, in my view, a set of values on top of that, a set of principles and a whole buffet of practices. The buffet comes from lean, from design thinking, from Agile, from XP, from Scrum, from SAFE. It doesn't matter. You pick the practices to suit the type of team you're working. That's my definition of agility. So it's very broad. But there are design principles as well. And I'll talk to that in a moment. So let's just drill down into the clarity of purpose thing. This is one of the most important slides in terms of clarity. It's come from a Harvard Business Review study. And that was published in the Harvard Business Review in 2013. So it's not very old in terms of management principle. But it's the concept of how you cascade strategy down. How do you create clarity? So if you look at this picture, at the top is the group level of the company. You have a vision. And there are your OKRs, your objectives and key results. To get your key results, you must have a strategy. The strategy from the level above cascades to be the objectives of the level below. This is vital. If you don't get this right, you'll struggle. Yeah. So just to give you an example. Company X wants to open out in Southern India. They want to grow in Southern India. So the objective is to grow revenue by 300%. Their strategy is, okay, we're going to target Southern India. So the business unit owner for let us say the retail business now takes the strategy of going to Southern India and sets objectives for it. So they say, okay, I'm going to target small, medium enterprise in Southern India. And my objective is to grow my revenue to $10 million. And how is he going to do that? What are his key results? What are his plans? Pass it down, pass it down. So where do you think we are when we go in as coaches? Where do you think we sit? We're sitting down below at the operational team level. And you go up and you say, oh my God, every team I work with, they tell me my boss has not done their strategy. I don't know what the strategy is. It's the problem of the person above. Everyone points up. And when I was working with IBM, you go right up to the top, which is 400,000 people. So these layers go down 11 or 12. It's not four. You go up to the top and the person who was grouped right at the top says, it's these people at the bottom. They just don't get it. So you will find this comment everywhere up and down the tree, up and down the tree. In every company. This is nothing specific to one company or another. Yeah? So your job is to work with the people to try and clarify what is their purpose? What is the objective? What are the, what is their strategy? And how are they going to achieve it? So let's take an IT team. You're sitting in an IT team. You're trying to coach them. And you're working with the group that is, let's say the digital mobile app group. Let's take a new world business where most companies have somebody doing digital. Yeah? So you're with the digital squad. And what's the purpose? Yeah, yeah, we're working with retail banking. Retail banking have an app. So you'd have to talk to the retail banking business as the coach together with, together with the leader. You're going in. You're facilitating it. You're helping them showing. That's you're not telling you're showing. You're not just going and doing it yourself. But you will have corridor discussions. You will go and have coffees with the different people that were different people that you need to get this information from. So this is one of the key things that you have to do. You also have to ensure that the team finds what's their clarity of purpose. What do they want to do? So what does that mean? What does better, faster, cheaper mean for me as a team? Yeah, not too sure. What are my key results? I'm not too sure. So in this segment, you have to baseline their current measures. If you don't have a baseline as a coach, forget it. There's no point in doing anything because if you can't measure, you can't see improvement. Your job is to show improvement, build a high performing team. For that you must measure. So you do your assessment, say how long do you take to go put something in production? How long is your deployment cycle? What's your cycle time? What's your throughput? What's your employee set? What's your customer set? The four key measures. 90% they won't be there. So what's your job now as a coach? Here come the sleeves. Up go the sleeves. You start measuring it with them. Get in there. Show them. Dive in. Let's take a pulse. Let's measure it. Put the first chart up. And I'll talk later of how you let go because you can't become the coach crutch. You have to step back. So you set clear objectives for that team. What are their key results? They have to own it and together in a facilitated workshop you have to set it up. Then comes control without controlling. Now you can't control without controlling if you don't have those measures in place. So one of the key techniques for control without controlling. You've got two levers. The first lever is your measurements. That's what gives you control without controlling. You don't have to micromanage. You just have to look at the walls. The second lever is what I call the wisdom of the crowd. You have to be there in the sessions. You have to be there listening to people. You have to see what's happening. They will be telling you in their sessions what's really happening. You don't have to say anything. You just have to be there. Management by walking around 1980s. Most of us will remember that. Yeah. It's an old technique. Go there. Be there. Yeah. And talk to people and listen. This will tell you what's happening really on the ground. Now what's your job then? Because once you find an issue, I had one coach walk into me and said, I've got a problem. I've got a toxic person in my team. I've got a very how many of you have had that experience as coaches of one person being toxic? Almost everyone. Yeah. And the bad apple will be there. Yeah. And yeah, as a coach, you don't have the authority to do anything. You can't fire them. But it is your job to hold them accountable. It is your job to hold them accountable for the values that have been agreed by the team. One of my key principles is that trust is nothing but the box of expectations with the ribbon around it. That's what trust is. Yeah. And if you tell somebody, I trust you. I trust you for what? I trust you to do this, do that, do this, don't do this, don't do that. That's what you that's what trust is even in a relationship, even in a private personal relationship. You tell darling, I trust you. Yeah. Darling has you have some expectations of darling and darling of you. So it's not it's not anything else but that's you have to define these expectations with the team in the clarity of purpose section. What are the values? Do your social contract. First thing before you do any stand up, do your social contract. Set it up on the wall. Okay. So now you have that there. Hold them accountable to the values. And these are tough. Come to Jesus discussions. These are what leaders have to do. This is what you have to do. Don't do it in public. Please don't don't belittle them. Don't make them look bad. This is not what we're about. Take them in private. Have a chat with them. First, the nice chat. It's the understanding what's happening. Try to understand their position. You have to care if you don't care for the people and they won't see that care coming through. They will not respect you. You have to absolutely care for your people and your team 100%. So as you have the chat, there may be a valid reason. Maybe something's going on. Maybe there's a but they may also not be valid reason. In which case, you have to say, yeah, I'm sorry, but this would not work. You can't go on like this. I had one person who was the head of a mainframe team. She was in the group for maybe 20 years doing this job. She knew the mainframe inside out. And in fact, she could have coded every story faster than anyone else. So she was fantastic at doing it. Fantastic. One of the best performers. And terrible. Would not let anybody else in the team did not want Agile, would not come to stand-ups, did not participate, did not collaborate. Every rule you can think of was broken. But they can't let her go because she knows everything. You just can't, oh my God, if she goes, the whole mainframe will come down. Really? Will the mainframe come down? So I had the big chat with the boss and I said, you have to let me try something. You just have to. If you want me to coach this team, you have to let me try something. And this was in 2008. So at the very start of the Agile journey. And I said, give me three months. Transfer her to another team. Three months. So do you think the mainframe crashed? No, of course it didn't crash. Everybody picked it up. The team became a high performing team. And for the person itself, it was the best thing that ever happened. For the first two weeks, she hated me. She would not look at me. She would not talk to me. That's fine. But three months later, she came to me and she thanked me. Said that's the best thing that ever happened because she started learning new stuff. Which she had stopped completely. So you have to have the discussion. And be careful of these metrics. They'll try to fiddle the metrics all the time. The walls will change. Whatever you measure will improve at the cost of something else. So you have to balance your measures. If you don't balance your measures, you're going to get all sorts of funny things happening. When you balance them, if you try to cheat on one side, the other side, you'll see start being balanced. So it will, let's say, correct itself and you'll be able to see it. So watch the measures. It's very important. Now, design for flow. This is an important bit that you have to watch out for because when you come into a team, they'd have set up a design for you. Most coaches, when you go in, if you're not coaching at executive level and you're not leading the transformation, you'll have very little say in the team structure. Around about that same time, 2008, 2009, I was called into a company in Melbourne that asked me to help them on their Agile transformation. They wanted to try it. And they said, I'd like you to work with the BAs and the developers. The testers, we're not including now because the leader doesn't support Agile. So can you please do just these two parts? How do you think that went? So I said, no, thank you very much. You please call me when you're ready to do Agile and then we'll talk. I actually got called back last year. So it took them quite a few years to realize that and correct. So now the testers are in as well. But it's important that you set up the basics of good design. You should know the basics if you're going in as a coach. Small, persistent, cross-functional teams, pulling work from a prioritized funnel. If you just look at that piece, you sometimes have to help them with that. So the first thing you have to do is set up your skill matrix. What are the missing skills in your team? What's the skill heat map? Very few teams have a skill heat map. Yeah, I have three devs, but I'm not a full-stack team. So I've got all these handoffs between multiple squads. Design for minimal handoffs. You have to know where the blockages are. You have to know where the waste is. That's what design for flow is. And you have to help them. So you have to look at the statistics and help them. And now you're thinking, where do I find time for all this? Well, you're the coach of the team. You have to be in the team, not outside. I was just at the company last week in Miami and I was sitting there writing a report for someone else, for some other project, and the coaches were sitting opposite. 80% of the time the coaches were in the coaching den, as we call it, themselves. That's not the place for them. They should be out by the teams, with the teams, living, breathing, drinking, partying, and sweating with the teams. That's when you're a leader out there. So you have to know the principles of good design and you have to help them with that good design. So these three things, the clarity of purpose, the control without controlling, and that's holding people accountable as well, and design for flaw. There are three things you have to do as a coach and as a leader, because that's what you are. And there'll be all sorts of resistances that you're going to face. So I've got eight tips here. There we go. We've got ten minutes. So I've got eight tips and I'll try and rush through them as soon as we can. The first is set clear expectations. Absolutely. If you don't do that, you're getting nowhere. Now this is, are you the coach? Do they want you there? Do they accept you as a leader or not? You can't say, do you vote for me to be your leader? No, that's not how leadership works. They have to literally believe that you are leading them. You have to inspire them. You have to make them believe in themselves and everything. But that starts with setting clear expectations. Now that means do you have the buy-in when you go in from the company to coach a team? How many of you have that buy-in when you go in? A few? Yeah. You can't parachute into a team as the coach if you haven't been asked to coach them. So forget that. Just don't go anywhere near the team. Now giving tips, mentoring, helping, do that every single day, do that everywhere. That's not what I mean. I'm talking about a formal coaching role with a team. The second one. You have to inspire them. I see so many coaches with no energy, no energy to energize the teams. You have to bring energy to the team. You have to set B-hags, big, hairy, audacious goals. So if they say, yeah, we can do 20 story points, how are we going to do 40? Not you have to do 40. How are we going to do 40? Do you think we can do 40? I believe you can do 40. Now you're starting to get the juices flowing and you'll find resistance. You'll find all those things in there. But that's what a leader's job is. A leader's job is to build great leaders. That's what you're doing. You've got to inspire them to be the best they can be. You have to bring that there. You're not just there as a coach. So what do you think is the best way to get the story points? No. It's out there in front. That's why I call it coaching from the front of the room. Yeah. And it is about setting targets that are really high. You get so much of this whinging in agile teams. I can't tell you how much of complaining. The coaches complain, the BAs complain, the devs complain, everybody is complaining about something and the management is complaining. And your job is to set these big targets, these big high achieving goals for them so that they feel absolutely inspired to reach for that. That's your leadership coming out. I think the coaches role, yes, on Sunday I was in the group or in the coaching workshop here and it was so fantastic to see that if you get a chance to be a coach, it's nothing but leadership training for you. It's not a role, it's leadership training. That's what it is. And if you don't feel comfortable being a leader, then coaching is not for you. At least not agile coaching. Yeah. So this is the next one. I can't tell you how many times I've got complaints from the team about arrogance of coaches. Yeah. I do a little practice when I go into a workshop or go into a session, a facilitation session or whatever. I tap the dough, oh no I almost shook the hell out. I tap the dough outside and I walk in. And it's just a little memory jar for me to leave my pride outside the room. Leave my arrogance outside the room. Go in with humility. Now that does not mean you don't know what you're telling, what you're craft. That does not mean you can't give them direction but you have to be humble. Yeah. Don't be arrogant in it and avoid being an agile Nazi. You know, oh we're going to do a stand up and you have to stand up. I was working with a team that was remotely distributed and this coach is insisting on all of them standing up in front of their cameras. They're all sitting in their homes. No we're going to do a stand up. You have to stand up. And the cameras are pointing here now. How do you like that? Yeah. No. Use your common sense. Yeah. And you have to be humble, listen and you're learning every day. As a leader you're learning every day. Believe me. Yeah. You're never finished with learning. So be humble. Now this one accountability. You have to go in with moral accountability for the delivery. You have to have moral skin in the game. I get so many coaches that say we're not responsible for delivery. The team is responsible for delivery. I'm just here to coach. No you are morally responsible for delivery. You are morally responsible for building a high performing team. If they fail you fail. That's the thing. That's the first one. The second one is you have to hold them accountable for that. That means having those difficult discussions. It's not about being liked. And some of them are not going to like you. That's okay. If they break the values and principles that they agree. Remember you've set the expectations up front. It's your job to hold them accountable. This includes the manager of the team. And that's a difficult discussion. So you better grow some cahooness. Now work ethic. Please work your butt off. I see so many coaches. They land up and they disappear. Then they're in their own coaching den. They're gone at five o'clock. You can't be a leader if that's the example you set. You can't expect them to follow you. You have to work harder than them. You have to be there at seven thirty. You have to finish at five thirty six thirty seven thirty when the last one goes. And then you'll get the total respect of the team. Believe me. I know some fantastic coaches in the world. One of them is a guy by the name of Frank Fox. And he's there with his sleeves rolled up. The first one in the room. The last one to leave. Doing stuff with the team. And then you step back. After you've done it for a week, two weeks. Now you've got your understudies doing it. And you're watching them. You're giving tip. But you're there. You're not disappeared. MIA. Missing in action. So many coaches missing in action. I'll talk in a moment about scaling agile where coaches have been given ten teams to coach. Yeah. Now how do you think that works? Yeah. You're this little seagull. You go in. You know. You crap on them and you fly away. And then you think you're giving them guidance. You are busy with building relationships. I have some of my best friends. Our friends I've gained at work. People have coached. People who have coached me. Teams I've worked with. You are building relationships. What does that mean? That means connecting. That means going out. That means talking, laughing, drinking, working, sweating, crying with your team. Now are you their leader? Or their coach? You are their leader. Not everyone's the same in a team. So one of the key messages is you never coach a team. You always coach individuals in the team. So if you look at the sports metaphor, every single individual in the team is getting specific coaching. If you're the goalie, you get a different set of coaching skills taught to you than if you're the striker. And if you're the striker on the left and the striker on the right, you get different skills. You have to know who's each one and how they play and what they do. What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? And this takes a little bit of time. And lastly, please do not go in to try and coach somebody if you don't know what you're coaching. If you don't know your craft. I see so many people who have been an iteration manager maybe for a month or two months or six months and now they suddenly become the agile coach because demand is outstripping supply. So they're agile coaches all over the place who've just got certificates. It does not matter whether you have the certificate or not. What matters is that you totally understand the craft that you're trying to coach. You don't have to be an IT guy or an IT girl. You can be from any other line. You can be a philosopher, a psychologist, an ex-project manager. It doesn't matter. But you must know the craft. If you're coaching an infrastructure team, you better know how infrastructure works. If you're coaching an application development team or a sales team, you better understand sales. It doesn't take long to understand sales. But do the hard work. Sweat it, learn it, understand it. Talk to everybody. And the last one, figure out your exit. You can't be a coach. Coaching is in some ways a thankless job because at the end of the day you will go. Even Alex Ferguson had to leave. So whether you retire or you're asked to leave or you move on to another team, you will leave. Set up the teams for success. Define your exit strategy when you go in, literally. You have to know what's your plan to go out. And with that, I'd like to talk a little bit about, while these eight are up there, I'd like to talk a little bit about scaling. So most companies that are currently on this journey because we're in that sort of middle adopter stage. We're talking companies that are 1,000 people, 2,000, 5,000, 20,000, 50,000 strong going at y'all. You can hire every coach in the country and you still won't have enough of coaches. So what do you do? In my humble experience, the only model that will work is to use the minimum set of coaches to train a set of champions. They can be the leaders, the iteration managers, scrum masters, or just people that are passionate in the teams. In every team, you have to have one champion. And you as a coach work very closely with them. They have to be leaders. Remember, those people must show leadership skills. They don't have to be experienced managers. I'm not talking about that. Pick the leaders, the managers as well, train them. And that way, you can get a little bit of distance, but you still have to follow these principles, these tips. So it's an interesting blend between one and the other. And lastly, you have to be the change you want to see. Thank you. So I've got a few minutes for a question. Thank you so much for the wonderful session and reiterating some of these fundamental things is very, very helpful. One of the questions or problems that I've been facing with some of the coaching is how do you see when people work from home and they're coaching teams remotely and not being with the teams? So what are some of the, you know, we've been trying to address that problem in many ways, but we don't want to be restrictive of people's freedom and liberty to work from locations that they want. But how does that apply to a coaching model? So I've had the fortune or misfortune of working with totally distributed teams. 910 people spread over 910 continents, all in different time zones working from home. It's very, very, very, very hard. It's almost, let's say, very difficult to do because they're not even following the basic agile principles of, you know, working closely together and collaborating if you're on so many time zones. Now, two locations, try and go with that. So I talked about design for flow. That is not design for flow. Forget it. It's not. Now, two locations, okay, we can manage. We can do something. So use your common sense there. Now, if they say, I want to all work from home, you're already starting to face challenges in the design. Now, so what are you coaching them? What is it? You're coaching them to be a high-performing team, yeah, to deliver great results. So you have to find the best route possible for these people who are working from home. Now, getting to know them is very difficult, yeah. I think if you've got a couple of people working from home, that's great. But if you've got every single person working from home spread over multiple time zones, it's a lost cause. And you might as well back out because that's not going to be a high-performing agile team. It's not. For the rest, you just have to make do with, by the way, just one little tip on the distributed teams. Forget the telephone. You have to use video. The least you can do is look in their eyes. The least you can do is look in their eyes. Was that a yes or absolutely? You must use video, yeah. If you pick up the phone, not work. And now you can use Zoom. It's one of the best there is. By the way, I'm not getting money from Zoom. But yeah, it's definitely, and it's for the, there is a free version as well. So there's no excuse for not using Zoom or not using videoconferencing. Sorry. Go ahead. One more. Thank you. I'll hit the questions today. So the organizations have recognized the importance of agile now. They all understand that the engine has to be there irrespective of how strong their strategy has. I think the question I want to ask you is that, what differentiate, so when you look at the organization, right, what are the key things you look at the organization when you think that this organization is ready to transform? You trust upon little bit upon the expectations and all. But what granular level you look at the organization which are good to go through the transformation and which are not good to go through the transformation? So this is a good question. Actually, tomorrow I am talking about setting up crafting an organization for transformation. How do you craft a transformation journey from scratch? So it's a long answer. I don't have time. But all I will tell you is the key thing is, are they ready? Do they have the pain? Do they have the desire to transform? You can't as a coach create that, yeah? So that's the only thing is the management. And it is a belief for me. It's a belief and it's a strategic decision. So a strategic decision is always a belief. That means if they say to you, can you prove to me that agile is good, walk out the door? You're not there to prove anything. If they don't believe that this is the route and I'll talk about options and everything tomorrow, they don't believe that this is the route. It's not your job. Thank you very much. In the interest of time, I don't want to let this run late. I'm on LinkedIn, Phil Abernathy. Please contact me. I'll be here today and tomorrow as well. All the very best. Thank you.