 Welcome everybody to another episode of the non-profit show. We're really excited today because we have two guests who are going to come on and talk with us about non-profit mergers and alliances. And I like that word alliance because it's a broader word than sometimes just partnership or sponsorship. We've got Nora Hanna here, a director of Arizona Together for Impact. And we also have Carrie Harlow, director of non-profit sustainability initiative. Both of these ladies are going to really share their wisdom about what they see across the non-profit sector landscape and they also work together. So it's going to be interesting to hear what they have to say about their processes and how it moves forward. In case we haven't met, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Non-profit Academy. My co-host, Jared Ransom, is off for the day. She will be back here tomorrow. Again, we have amazing partners that we've formed alliances with and we want to make sure that we express our gratitude. It goes out to Blumerang, American Non-profit Academy, your part-time controller, non-profit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, non-profit nerd and non-profit tech talk. These are the folks that align with us day in and day out. Many of them have been with us since that first week we started four years ago. So partnerships are real and this is going to be a fun discussion to have. If you've missed any of our more than 800 episodes, you can get back to them. You can find us on our streaming broadcast platforms, our podcast. And you can also download our new app, which will give you a push notification every day when we upload our newest episode, which happens just a few hours after we've done this. So go ahead and download that and you can join the conversation. Okay, Nora Hanna, I have witnessed your brilliance and your leadership in my community over the years. It's been a joy and a pleasure to see you succeed and advocate on behalf of so many non-profits here. Talk to us a little bit about what you do and then Carrie, we will ask you the same question. Well, thanks, Julia. It has been a fun ride, I will say that. And I really am enjoying my role now because I get to support so many non-profits and their leaders, which is my favorite thing to do. I think non-profit leaders are my favorite group of people on earth. So Arizona together for impact is actually a collaboration of funders, which finally is happening. And I think we've all wanted that to happen as well. They pooled resources in order to support non-profits throughout the state in their efforts to collaborate. And we'll talk more about what that looks like as we get into more of the details. How old is this organization? We're about four years old, so relatively new. And we're still evolving and changing the way we fund and the things we fund along the way. Amazing. Carrie Harlow, you come to us from the Greater Los Angeles area. Talk to us about what you do. Yes, thank you, Julia. I am coming from Los Angeles. I work with the nonprofit sustainability initiative, which similar to Nora's work is a pooled fund. We have about 20 local foundations participating in supporting the work. And we invest in nonprofit resiliency during moments of transition. And as we'll talk about today, a big key piece of that is, you know, exploring partnerships and collaboration agreements. Amazing. Now, how old is your organization? We were founded in 2012, so we're 11 years old now. Great. Amazing. You know, it's fascinating that the two of you have, I would say you're relatively new in time and content or, you know, intent. And then to have navigated through a global pandemic, it's fascinating to be part of this like journey that's already a little, I don't want to say fraught, but, you know, it has a lot of things going on. So talk to us about this spectrum of partnerships. I think sometimes we think there's just like one way and there's one path. But I think you're both going to tell us that's not necessarily the case. That's absolutely right. We actually use the word collaboration as often as possible because the spectrum is so broad in this work. And when we first came on the scene, I think a lot of nonprofits said, oh, this is all about mergers, right? That's one thing we do, but I will tell you that funding mergers is only about 10% of what we fund. Most of it falls in the other areas that they continue on. So everything from alliances, which are different kinds of coalitions, they can be issue based, they can be geographically based, but they're a group of usually three or four more organizations working together. To what I consider the most popular form of collaboration, and that is either a joint program or shared services. So, you know, in a way you could be a shared space, shared resources, you may not both be able to afford a marketing person, but maybe you could share one, share a database, all those sorts of things. And that would become more and more popular. And then as you alluded to, we do things that would be integrations of two or more organizations and, again, there's a lot of fear around that, but oftentimes they can take forms of a subsidiary where you can maintain your autonomy or fiscal sponsorship. So there are a number of different ways that organizations, particularly smaller organizations can share resources to have greater impact. So that is that is the main goal of collaboration. Do you find that you, and I'll ask both of both of you this question, do you find that people are coming to you asking for help, or you are outside observing things and saying, Hey, Group A, should you think about talking with Group B? I mean, it's kind of like the yenta matchmaker approach versus being, you know, the spiritual advisor, I guess, there seems to be two ways to go about this. It's a great question. There's a careful balance there. The data shows that when specifically when Philanthropy gets too involved with the matchmaking, the outcomes aren't as great as when the relationship starts authentically, right? Among the nonprofit leaders, the board members themselves who see alignment and want to pursue it because it does require a lot of time and thoughtfulness and process. And so we really can't force it. Although it is our role to make sure that nonprofit leaders know that it's a strategic tool in their toolbox and make it accessible to them. So it's sort of that, that careful balance. You know, it's, it's such an emotional concept. And it's a power struggle, I would imagine at some point, whether we identify it or we verbalize it. So given kind of the human element, if you will, because we're all at the end of the day, we're very passionate about what we're serving and how we're doing it. We're working with volunteers, you know, non-paid staff in terms of our boards. So what does the process of effective partnerships or collaborations look like? What should it look like, I should say, maybe? I'll walk us through sort of chronologically, maybe. So how do we start? Where does it start? It's important that we think of this as a strengths-based strategic tool. And it's important to get buy-in, particularly from your board for this as a strategic process, just conceptually, well in advance, if possible, before there's a prospective partner at the table. That's what we've learned. And so really just having the conversation openly and frequently as part of your strategic planning process is really key to being prepared for when that partner comes to the table. And then we find often that the next step is organizational assessment. So thinking about, you know, maybe if you think of it as a puzzle, what puzzle pieces does your organization bring to the table? What are your assets? What do you have to offer to a partnership? And what are you seeking? So in many cases, maybe you're looking for a partner organization that has a different revenue stream or business model, right? Or maybe it's that they work with a population you're looking to reach. So the following, and this won't be surprised, the following step or phase in the process is an environmental scan. So identifying potential partners and doing it strategically. It's not necessarily the organization closest to you, right? Or the nonprofit leader that you have the closest relationship with today. It's about thinking through what you're what you're seeking as an organization. And in some cases we see, for example, an organization that wants to expand their geographic reach. But they want to provide the same programming, right? Consistent programming. So they're looking for partners that have very aligned programming models but have relationships or, you know, community connections or cultural competency in areas that they don't. Or maybe it's a totally different approach. Maybe it's that they're looking to connect with the same population but provide a broader spectrum of services through relationships. So there really is no right answer of going about it, but thinking about like sort of what is your what is your approach going to be and that informs who you approach in courtship, right? Who you're going to speak to you about a perspective partnership. So I'm intrigued by this because I have to say the board work that I've done and the organizations that I've done, I don't I can't think of many that have started this way. It seems like they've they've honed in on a group and then they've like tried to make it work. If that makes sense that they're not investing in this process in advance and having that theoretical conversation. Nora, you're nodding your head. Yeah, yes, absolutely. And I think this leads to an important factor in our work that Carrie and I do, which is we we generally are supporting having a third party consultant a technical advisor work with these groups and in my fantasy world. When you have a consultant working on your strategic plan with you which often organizations do right they have a retreat you bring in a consultant and what what should happen at that moment is the consultant takes you through a process where you pop your head up and look around and say who's doing what in our community. How would we engage with them how could we work with them in a way that supports our impact I mean it's really all about that. But if you're working in nonprofit you're hairy you're busy and so you have your head down just worrying about your own organization. So it's in that strategic planning process that we should be discussing this really consistently. Interesting and again I knew the two of you ladies would like set my hair on fire, because I don't I can't ever remember seeing this done being done in that strategic plan, unless like I to back up unless somebody specifically identified a group, but just as a holistic approach to management. It doesn't seem like it's being done enough now carry in your community. Do you see it differently. I think the longer we've been invested in this and made it an accessible tool the more it's become normalized right and boards right there's cross pollination. Someone who sat on a board who has gone through this process strategically can then bring it to the table at the next organization they serve with or nonprofit leaders once they've built that muscle. There is sort of some it's daunting right when you haven't been through it before but to demystify it and to resource it with consultants that have the expertise is I think the key. And it is a really robust due diligence process I mean going back to the process of what we know works. These neutral third party consultants walk you through a lot of steps values alignment addressing power dynamics, programmatic alignment financial due diligence there's a legal aspect right oftentimes addressing board hesitation getting all along the way I mean there's a lot of work to be done. And so that's sort of what we found is really critical is having that third party consultant to help guide you through that process. I've got to believe that if you do that, you're going to help mitigate a lot of the quote unquote power struggles that that really are more emotional or ego oriented and so I think that's brilliant brilliant advice. Let me talk about this a little bit more in depth with both of you ladies and in that setting expectations carry to your point you know not a lot of folks have gone through this process and they might identify it and say yeah this is what we need to be but then how do you do it and again you're working with volunteers or as Nora said you know a harried staff and yet you're still trying to do your work and what how do you do this so that you you do have that those expectations that are going to be realized and everybody's going to be successful. Go ahead Carrie you can take it. It is key that the realistic expectations is so so important and that's part of our role right nor and I as sort of counselors in this matter early on, talking to nonprofit leaders about their own process and how to prepare for it, and what to expect. So that that is really key. And really, we have found there are a couple of important factors. One is this takes much longer than people want it to. Okay, you know so to your point yeah you're to your point you know we've identified this organization so can we have this done in, you know, a month. And sometimes they are rushed and they're generally less successful you're going to you're going to pay for it down the road with when you do go through with whatever integration you're trying to achieve. So, we do say bring in a consultant, but the other thing is, make sure you set the appropriate expectations about how long this will take. And that's why we really want this to be a strength based initiative. Very few of what we fund are these desperate last minute, you know, save the organization there are occasions and that happens and I'm happy that the organizations do get salvaged and it's a very successful integration and saves the program, but generally we like to leave, you know, kind of three to six months at a minimum and anywhere from 12 to 24 months, and you engage your board in that process. And the one of the other reasons it takes so long is that the key factor is trust. So, you have to build trust you don't you know we use that dating analogy earlier but you know you don't get married after the first date right you, you take your time hopefully, and you get to know each other, you build that relationship of trust not only between the leadership team but also with the board members on how you're going to work together and how you're going to, you know, better serve the community always keeping that as your north star. And so that's that's the biggest factor of the setting the correct expectation. It almost seems like if you had taken and I'm going to use the word inventory but taken stock or taken inventory of what you have what you need, you know, this, this discussion without identifying an organization. You're setting yourself up for for more success moving forward. Would you agree with that. I would, I would and we've done a couple of webinars that where we say how to find your perfect 10. And it's, it's really you do want to do a cast a wide net. And you also need to know what are your must haves in this process like you know we, what about your mission is so critical. And who do you really need to serve and could you broaden that or narrow that in the right partnership so so identifying your must haves and then the things you would just like to have before you go into these conversations is really helpful. This question and just kind of popped into my mind because I'm sitting, you know, in a boardroom looking around the table thinking about times when I've been involved in these discussions. And it seems to me that there's another segment where there are still founders involved versus organizations that maybe are more mature in the life cycle of their of their being. What do you say to that like what has been your experience when you talk about I mean founder syndrome we talk about that. What does that look like and how does that factor into this. This dynamic shows up not just with founder executives but also founding board members still have been involved. There can be more hesitation and sort of a, you know, a sense of, you know, not wanting to let go of the legacy or the initial intent right and connection to that original logo original brand recognition right that can be a sticky object for some of these conversations. And that kind of goes back to setting good expectations right so if you if you go into the conversation knowing what are your boundaries. What are the must haves. What are the things that the board isn't going to move on. It's better to know that up front and have your partners know that up front, so that you're not wasting anyone's time. I do see though that these conversations will get to a certain point. And if there's hesitation at the board level because of some of these dynamics, oftentimes they pause and years down the road will come back to us during a moment of executive transition or when there's been turnover from the board and they're ready readiness is so key and you really can't rush it. So that is something that we've seen a lot. And so it's such an interesting thing because it gets back to the ego part of this. And especially I love that you said founding board members. Absolutely because they're the ones that were, you know, at the kitchen table starting things and then, you know, navigating through a historical perspective, I guess. Let's talk about this a little bit in terms of overcoming challenges and and there's so many but kind of threading this needle through. Can you give us a perspective about what happens to these boards. You know, you can't just take two boards and put them together. What are some of the things that you're seeing. And then I want to address what are some of the other challenges that you're seeing as well. The integration of boards can be challenging. Sometimes it's the smoothest piece right sometimes it's about bringing a really strong board together with one that is tired and needs needs to be re energized and through this process becomes more engaged, or has an avenue to step back and take on more of an advisory role. And that's sometimes welcome so it's not always a problem right at the integrating a board sometimes can be actually a solution to existing board issues. But certainly there's other challenges along the way that we found, and going back to sort of the importance of that neutral facilitator with experience in the process. It's so so critical that they create a robust due diligence process that so that you can get ahead of some of those sticky subjects, like leadership, like name and brand, like board integration. And they can create a process curate a process that takes care of those things earlier on so you don't get surprised, you know, at the end with these issues. Right. Nora, talk to me a little bit about, you know, overcoming challenges. And in some of this, the emotional side of this. How do you separate some of the these fierce sensibilities that we have in the nonprofit sector with the realities of running a not for profit business. And you know that's really at the core of what we're trying to achieve sort of locally and nationally is, is changing the way people think about collaboration in the nonprofit sector you know in the, I came from for profit as you know and, and if you talk to us about a merger that was a plus like yeah bring it on let's have that conversation but in nonprofit and when I ran a nonprofit someone suggested it to me and I was supremely offended. Do you think I'm a failure. So why is that why did we feel that way and, and what we're trying to do is change that mindset among both nonprofit leaders and funders because sometimes funders get skittish when they think an organization is considering a merger. I want everyone to think about any of these collaborations as strengths based, and not something you need to run away from, and then getting back to something that Carrie and I have already addressed facilitators are critical and having a facilitator who really knows this field, because you will run into these emotional moments with board members and executives and you need a facilitator who knows how to take the person aside and talk to them about it rationally. It helps them think it reorient them to the overall goal of your community or your clients like let's think about this are we going to be able to serve more children if we move forward, yes or no. And you know so those are the kinds of things as opposed to and gets you out of your own space like think bigger. Think about the larger impact. And one of the things we've why we're at the table as a separate funding organization is to cover some of those costs, which address some of those fears. So, in some cases, they have funded sort of severance packages or things that may be like I here's what I'm most afraid of. So it's going to cost us to get out of our lease we can't move forward well wait a minute, maybe we can help you with that. So there are a lot of things that we can be helpful to to support this that you wouldn't find funding for in any other way. You know we don't have a lot of time left and I could I could spend the rest of the day talking to both of you because I think this is so fascinating. I love that you've brought in this concept of the facilitator and I would love to spend our last moments with what is the profile of this type of service is this. Does this is this coming from a law firm is this coming from somebody who specializes in this like, what should we be looking like looking at for bringing this this in. Great question. The consultants that we work with and we we've developed a roster that's growing. There's a growing national community practice practice for consultants looking to do more of this work. You know, many of them do other things as well right like strategic planning or executive search we know that this type of conversation oftentimes intersects with executive transitions. But it is a special skill set. And I think that you don't have to be a lawyer, but you do have to know sort of how to build a process that cares for some of these power dynamics that are often at play and and walk organizations through so it involves organizational assessment it involves really, you know, talented facilitators, and then at some point in the process oftentimes it does also involve engaging legal counsel right and hopefully pro bono legal council because it can get possibly otherwise. Yeah, but that that does expertise does come into play at some point. Right, Nora, before we let you go. Can you explain to us how you know while I have the two of you ladies on you really are part of a bigger movement you alluded to this earlier. But this is really a national consortium. And that's my word I don't know if that's your word but this collaboration to get our sector understanding this. What is that looking like in that space. Right, we have about a dozen. A dozen networks very similar to do doing what Carrie and I do so Chicago, Austin, Dallas, Philadelphia, New York, they all have similar initiatives to this work and there's even a couple who fund nationally. And we're growing that field. So Carrie and I actually are collaborators and I will never do it another way, other than with a partner like Carrie in setting up and helping support the national network called sustain collaboration and we provide again training and community of practice for consultants because as you said one of the things about Kobe is many of them are working remotely and you could get a great facilitator from Kansas City or wherever it doesn't really matter. So it really has broadened our ability to work in this space but we're adding new communities as often as possible. Amazing. Well, this has been riveting and and I think this is just a conversation that we need to have more of and and I think that as both of you ladies journey through the expansion of this. I want to say concept and notion. We need to have you back on to talk about this more nor Hannah director of Arizona together for impact. Nor thank you like I said I've been a fan of yours for so many years. And so it's really great to have you on Carrie Harlow director nonprofit sustainability initiative coming to us from Los Angeles today. Both of you are doing tremendous work that I've got to believe is going to go beyond your lives and make structural changes that are really profound. So thank you for that. It's been really wonderful to to meet you and learn more about what you're doing. Really exciting times for us in the nonprofit show. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd will be back tomorrow with us on our Friday ask and answered. Again, we are here today because of the largest from our partners. Bloomerang American nonprofit Academy, your part time controller nonprofit thought leader fundraising Academy at National University staffing boutique nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out. Ladies, this is a really an interesting time to be learning from you. And I really love the things that you had to say I feel like you made this a lot more intellectual and less emotional. And that's a really cool thing because you can only get so far in emotion. Well, thank you for having us. It's been great. Yeah, it's been really, really fun. As we end every episode, we want to remind ourselves, our guests, our viewers and our listeners to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow, everyone.