 This table here, right? It says why aren't you vegan? It doesn't say why is everyone else can't beat them, join them. Do you go out and kill people? No. There's still murders that happen in the world. If you can't beat them, join them. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison. In a world where it wasn't illegal. Give it a go, why not? If I'm not going to prison for it. You would kill someone just to give it a go? Just give it a go, yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha. Being a vegan, do you know what it even is? Not eating me in it, or any form of anything that comes from animals, right? So basically, veganism is seeking to exclude all forms of exploitation and cruelty to animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose. All right, okay. Does that sound like a pretty reasonable position? I mean, yeah, but I mean. Think about animals, all right? Why do they even matter? Like, why does that pigeon there matter? Like, if I booted that pigeon, why would that matter? There's no reason for that. Yeah, but like, let's just say my reason was it made me, I got pleasure from it. I boot the pigeon, I get pleasure, right? Yeah. You eat the chicken, you get pleasure, right? Yeah. The outcome for the bird is probably worse when you eat the chicken. No, because I mean, they're dealt humanely. I mean, booting a pigeon is pretty rough, but I mean, in, like, you get the chicken batteries, I mean, to a certain... You know that they're not, wait. You think chickens are treated humanely in the UK? Well, you've got open-range chickens. They live in the field. Like, free-range chickens live in the field. The ones that you eat, I don't know. Well, the reason I'm being all surprised is because you rarely ever will get free-range birds that people eat. Yeah, fair enough. You're talking about eggs, maybe. Free-range eggs. Like, you go into the supermarket, you'll see, like, free-range eggs. Well, I mean, can eat the chickens, though, surely. They do kill them to eat them later, but that's after, like... Yeah, it's... That's after laying eggs every single day. Do you know what happens to the birds when they lay, like, think about a bird, right? And when they push out this egg. Yeah. Like, they obviously don't, in nature, push out one every day. You could imagine, push, like, a woman to sort of give them birth every single day. Yeah. Like, what happens to their body and... Yeah, it's probably, well, I haven't been a bit rough on it, but we need eggs. You need eggs. Good high protein is good for you. Do you think, like, you need eggs to be healthy or to survive? Not to survive, but to be healthy, yeah. It helps in a balanced diet. OK, so let me just... Wait a second. You think booting a pigeon is wrong? Yes. What if I create a crazy hypothetical situation where booting a pigeon is actually OK for my health, right? But there's also a situation where not booting the pigeon, I can get the same health benefits from, like, plant foods. Yeah, but, I mean, at the end of the day, yeah, it's very... Do you understand that hypothetical? Like, I'm basically saying, like, obviously a chicken is abused and killed so that you can have eggs, all right? True. To an extent. I wouldn't say, like, abused, abused, but... Let me ask you, like, you say that chickens are treated humanely. Like, what do you mean by the word humane? I don't know. They're killed in, like, the least painless way possible, I guess. Yeah, but when you say treated humanely, don't you mean, like, from birth to death? Well, I guess so, yeah. I mean, like, think about it. But the word humane, right, it likes to say I was to humanely treat you. Would killing be a part of that equation? Killing you. Well, yeah, I mean, if you do it, like... Would that be humane? Well, if you do it quickly and painlessly, yeah, it's humane. OK, so next time I go to... I mean, I'm in the courtroom and there's a judge there and I'm in trouble for murder, I just tell the judge, well, I did it as quickly as possible. No, I'm paranoid for that one. Would that be humane? Yeah. Think about how bad... I mean, you've got, like, killing where it's, like, it's rough, like, you drag it out. But if you do it as quickly as possible, it is humane. Well, compared to torturing someone, it's more humane, but it's not humane. Think about it, bro. If I shot you in the head right now, I could have the gentleman standing behind you shoot you, you wouldn't feel it, right? Yeah. The act of killing you is inhumane because you don't want to die. Yeah, but, I mean, a chicken doesn't know any difference. Let's be honest. You wouldn't know any different either because you'd be dead. Well, yeah, I'm dead, so... Why is murder bad? There's a difference between an animal and a person. OK, here we are. We are at the perfect spot. Thank you very much for that, Segway. The difference between an animal and a person. You know that I've done this before. So, we have a pig here. You see, this pig is with their young. So, this pig and this, they have eyes, a brain. They're experiencing the world. They're sentient, conscious. You know what sentience means? It's like conscious. Pigs have these feelings too. Maybe you can think more abstract and construct, you know, different thought patterns. Some people can't, but what I want to know is you said there's a difference between... There obviously is. But what about what we have in common? I mean, the only thing we have in common is just, like, living, really. No, because that tree's living. Yeah, but you wouldn't see a pig go and start off a business, would you? Wait a second. Do you think the metric for murder being justified is whether or not you have started a business? No, it was an example. There's a line with it that you can cross. No, there is plenty of differences between us and animals. But I'm talking about what is the difference that justifies killing the animal? It's an edible food source. That is... You are an edible food source. No, I'm not really. A dog is an edible food source. Yeah, that's just wrong. It's a dog. You're just saying it's wrong. You're not explaining why it's wrong. You've got household pets and then it comes to farm animals. Cows, chickens, all that, they're fine. But because it's something that is loved and cared for, then you don't want to eat it, do you? Wait a second, mate. You just said that animals are treated humanely where you get them from. So in your eyes, they're loved and cared for. So why would you eat them domesticated animals that are loved and cared for? But you wouldn't eat a dog who are domesticated and loved and cared for. I mean, no. Pigs, chickens are raised solely for the purpose of that the end of its life is killed to be fed to people. And I'm asking you why that is justified. You could just say, I'm farming them for food so therefore we can do what we want to them. Exactly, yeah. You farm it. Because it's a renewable food source. If I farm any being for food, what I do to that being is therefore justified because I want to eat them. I mean, guess it is, but still, it's just ethics really, isn't it? It's like... You're lumping in all beings when you say that when you use this justification. Because that's your justification. If we were in some hypothetical universe where if we didn't eat other beings, we would die, then I guess we would have a justification there. I still think that the other beings were having their rights violated and maybe we were the oppressor there, maybe we shouldn't exist and they should be able to because we're the killers in that situation. But I'm just saying we've got other options. All right, what would your argument be to turn me vegan? For the same reason, you shouldn't kill people. Basically, people, because what you're saying is like people can start businesses. We're not all people. We still protect the ones that can't. Yeah, but you can't live a life purely on just plants. How long do you think I've been just eating plants for? I don't know. How long have you been? Nearly 10 years. I just don't think you need protein in a diet. You don't get the proper protein in a plant that you would from my appear. Let me just say this to you because I don't want to debate health with you because I do know a lot about it because you probably don't. It's clear that you don't because you just said that you can't get protein from plants, which is the first thing that you learn when you started in plant-based that you can get protein. Protein is found in all plant foods in varying degrees. So if you knew you could be healthy, let's just say this, so it stops the health debate, if you knew you could be healthy, would that mean that raising animals for the sole purpose of killing them to eat them, would you think that that there was wrong? Because we have, you can get what you need from plants and we have another option. Would it be wrong if you could get what you needed from plants? No, not really. Oh yeah, do you know what I'm saying? Because you need a justification to do that to someone. Beings, their personalities, their justification is just purely because it's, you know, it's food. Yeah, but think about the beings. You know what animal rights are. You've got human rights, right? If I kill you right now, it doesn't matter if you feel it or not. I've violated your rights to exist. You should have sovereignty over your being, your consciousness, your subject inside of you. Experiencing this. You're not just the experience, you're the subject experiencing the world. Animals are also subjects of a life, right? So when you kill them, you are taking away their right to have sovereignty. They don't have, they're actually, they don't have any rights to treat it as property, right? But your reason is because I want to eat them. It's not because you, you'll die if you don't. It's because you want to. Nah, I just prefer it. Why, I'd rather. It's a preference. Exactly, it's a preference. All right, fair enough. Yeah, it's a preference, but. Is there preference to live stronger than your taste preference? If I like it, I'll eat it, mate. That's, it's. Imagine if I said that to you, I was about to kill you and I was like, because there are some cannibals, ay, serial killer cannibals. Yeah, so this is actually a pretty good, it actually is a perfect analogy. You're going to die. Think about it. You don't want to die. Do you want to die? I'm not forced to, man. You're not forced? I can't, I can't. I can't live with you then. I don't want to die. Fair enough. Yeah, I don't want to be killed. And I wouldn't want you to be killed, actually. Because I think that you, you say to me that you don't care if you get killed, but I think it's different in that situation. Well, I mean, if I'm put, like, going point-blank in my head, then maybe, yeah, I'll be scared. I'll be, I'll be breaking it a bit, yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if it's going to go black or you don't, no one knows. If it happens, it happens. Yeah, but that's, that's different to, is it okay to murder because I want to eat you? I wouldn't say it's murder though for animals because they don't know it. They don't, they don't know any different. Well, the animals have their own desires. They are subjects. You know this too, because you said, ah, they're treated humanely, so you obviously know they can suffer. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously, yeah, they've got feelings, like, if you don't go around booting animals, do you? Yeah, but if they don't know any better, why do you, why does that matter? Well, if they don't know any better, then there's no harm, no foul. Then you don't care if I boot a pigeon. You said it's no harm, no foul if they don't know any better. They're a disgusted animal, but yeah. No, but they're not, they're humans are. We are the most disgusting. Yeah, that's fair enough, but still. Because there's no need to boot the pigeon. But there's no need to eat the meat, boom. No, but there is, there is a need. What is a need? For me, you've got, like I said, you've got just taste, just having protein, everything in it. I just think it's a pleasure. Protein you can get from plants, so you can't use protein, but I'm sorry. Fair enough. Yeah, but taste is pleasure. And if I got pleasure from killing beings, do you think that's a good enough justification to kill the bean? Because I'm getting a little bit of pleasure. That's a whole life gone, so you can have a bit of pleasure. Yeah, but it feeds loads of people. Yeah, but you could feed loads more because you have to feed the animals first before you kill them. So all the plant foods go into the animals, like it's a bad use of resources, but it's not a good argument. No, fair enough. I just... Because what do the cows eat, and what do the pigs eat, and what do the chickens eat? They're eating grains and silage and harvested crops and grasses that are harvested. They have to grow them on cropland to harvest them and feed to the cows. Yeah, like all I'm saying is that so people can eat argument, just works against you because we're feeding most of the plant food to animals to eat them first, to eat them next. I just think because the whole, like meat industry farming, all that, it's such a high revenue. And it's like you can't just abolish eating meat because it will have effects on income for loads of people. Yeah, but what is more important in that situation? Like you don't care about the beings. What about, who's got it worse? The 80 billion beings who are being enslaved and killed. It's actually, when you include sea animals, it's trillions because there's one to three trillion little beings being tortured and killed, often. Most of the time tortured and then killed. Or this economy would need to change. What do you think is more important? I think the stability of the economy is more important. And they would have agreed with you actually in America before they abolished slavery. You can't compare slavery of humans to animals. I'm not equating humans and animals. I'm not saying they're the same beings. I'm saying that one of the arguments to keep slavery in America was the economy argument was that it's gonna ruin the economy. That didn't justify doing that to human beings and it definitely shouldn't justify doing it to non-human animals. Even though we are not the same, they still share in common with us the ability to suffer, feel pain, desire, freedom and well-being and don't want to die. I'm not saying a pig is a human. I'm saying that they share something in common with us and you can't use economy to justify killing humans or animals. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm not saying that. I understand what you're saying. I'm not saying you're the same as a chicken and maybe if there was a decision between you and a chicken, we should kill you. You don't have to say, or you're saying that they're better than humans or that we're the same beings. That's really offensive. All I'm saying is we don't need to kill neither and we shouldn't use these silly economic arguments or they taste good arguments to rob their sentence, to rob their life from them. The end of the day, you're never gonna stop it. So we shouldn't try? You're never gonna win. Yeah, but any of them is never gonna... But this table here, right? It says, why aren't you vegan? It doesn't say why is everyone else can't be enjoying them. Really? Do you go out and kill people? No. Okay. There's still murders that happen in the world. So why don't you, if you can't beat them, join them? Because I don't wanna spend the rest of my life in prison. In a world where it wasn't illegal? If it wasn't illegal. To just kill random people? Like, you know, not for any, not because they did anything wrong, I'm just saying. Just give it a go, why not? If I'm not going to prison for it. You would kill someone just to give it a go? Just give it a go, yeah. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You know what I'm saying, though? Like, you can't stop all the bad things from happening, you don't participate in it because you have a moral. I will take that as a, I think you're joking, just you don't really wanna, you wouldn't really. No, no, no, I wouldn't actually kill someone. Yeah, you wouldn't actually just for no reason. Well, let's say I get a free pass. Unless they're doing something super bad, like then maybe you'd think about it. But all I'm saying is that just because there's bad things happening in a world that we can't stop, that doesn't mean it gives us carte blanche to participate in it too. My question to you is if you believe these animals matter morally enough to treat them humanely, you believe that there's someone in there experiencing suffering and you think it's wrong to boot a pigeon and things like this. So isn't it wrong as well to murder them? It's not wrong. Murdering other people is wrong, yeah. You see how you have a contradiction there? Murdering people is wrong, murdering animals is not wrong. It's not wrong to kill an animal. Why not? Well, I mean, to a certain extent it is. Like, obviously, cats, dogs, just any little pet. But farm animals. So your favorite species, the ones that you decide matter, not the animals themselves. There's a line. Every person will say the same. Where's their line? Farm animals are like the fine fair game. But any household pets that you take in, live in your house. What metric are you deciding this ethical framework here? It's just whatever the standard is. What is the metric for you to protect cats and dogs and to destine farm animals to slaughter? Like, what is it about these animals that is so different from these animals that you would protect the cats and dogs and kill the farm animals? What is the difference like? I couldn't tell you. So they're the same, eh? They just look different. It's just a standard across all people. You don't cross. It's just a line, you don't cross. Everyone say the same. I haven't been able to. Do you know what speciesism is? You're up. Do you know what speciesism is? Just like treating different species wrong, I guess. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like racism, but for animals. It is. It is. It's discrimination, but with horrible outcomes. It's like, if you took a pig and a dog, right? Like, some species of animals, obviously you can treat them differently based on, for very specific reasons. Like, you're not going to treat a worm the same as a dog because they have different needs because they're a different species. But what I'm saying is when you grab a pig and you grab a dog, right? The only differentiating factor between those is species because pigs, they're almost identical to dogs. Intelligence, all of these things. See, people have been eating like, just it was the norm for like 100 years. Like, it is any of the farm animals to eat dogs, cats. And yeah, everyone would eat dogs and cats and it wouldn't be fine. Do you think because everyone does something, it makes it okay? Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Do you know that has hilarious implications and gruesome implications? In what way? If everyone does something, it makes it okay. What do you mean? It's the point where you can't stop it. Yeah. Think about that. No, if something happens, like mass, like everyone joins in and it just happens to the point where you can't stop it. Eventually, it just becomes the normal. Yeah, it becomes the normal, but I'm asking if it's morally good. If it's morally okay, just because it's normal or everyone does it, that doesn't then make it okay. That makes it a social norm. Yeah, that's what I'm on about. Yeah, it's a social norm that's different to morality. You know that, right? Yeah, I get it. Like, if everyone was killing, I don't know, children or something, children with red shirts on and everyone joined in on it and thought they were witches or something and started killing children with red shirts. That would just pass down for so long that eventually it would become moral. It would become... There's a difference between morality and social norms. But it'll come to the point where no one will think any different and they won't even come across... They won't just think anything of it. From the child's perspective, is it still wrong to kill them? Oh, yeah, I guess. Okay, so it's not... It doesn't become right because everyone's doing it. That's what I'm saying. That's the only thing you can compare to, like just killing, like there's just complete difference to it. No, no, no, I was talking about how... I was showing you how social norms, because everyone does it, does not make it right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, okay. The child still doesn't want to be killed. Yeah, but the child doesn't want to be killed, but the animal doesn't know it's going to be killed, so therefore... What are you talking about? A baby doesn't know that a gun is a gun, and does that mean I can shoot the baby if they don't know? Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, all I'm saying is you have to be consistent when you make these... I'm teaching you how to think actually right now. I know. I'm showing you that you're making these... You're using these justifications that you're not consistent with. You don't have any consistency. You know what I'm saying? You're saying it's okay to kill the pig, not okay to kill the dog. You haven't shown any real reason that that should be different. It's just because you prefer... Yeah. It's your societal conditioning. I suppose I don't have a proper argument against this. Just, it's what I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good that you're thinking it. Have you ever thought this deep into that? No, I actually haven't. Do you think differently about killing animals? Like, that you've been told or okay to kill? I just... Anything that comes up in play, that's just like said, the social norm. Fine, fair game. You don't see an issue with creating a demand for animals to be slaughtered instead of just like dogs in all the ways that matter. Dogs, cats, no. Like, you can't. Yeah. You just can't do it. Like I said, farm animals. Pigs and cows can. Yeah, okay. And you don't have a really good reason to do that. Just society does it so it's okay. It's just, yeah, pretty much, yeah. Do you always follow what society does? Yeah, pretty much. You never stand on your own? Yeah, I'm a follower. I'm not a leader. Okay. But yeah, that's interesting. I'm different. I would prefer to look around and analyze the rightness and wrongness of things. And I have listened to my conscience and I go, you know what? Those cows, those pigs, those chickens, those fish, they don't deserve that so I can have some pleasure. I think it's good to be consistent and not pick and choose, you know? And then, but yeah, I guess we are just different. So I guess you probably wouldn't just run out and go start like, have you seen this in film? Dominion? No. Then you can see actually how they treat animals. This one's UK based if you wanna see what they actually do to animals. So you can get that humane thing out your head. All right. And then humane murder, you agree that that's not a thing, hey? Nah, fair enough. No. You can't say that killing an animal is humane. Unless they want to die and they're suffering and you're doing a mercy killing. Yeah, that's fair enough. Like, I still think at the end of the day, people want me, it's a massive demand. It needs to be done nonetheless. There's no stopping it. It's just amazing what it's carry on with the way it is. So your argument is it's gonna keep going. There's no stopping it. So I might as well just keep joining in with it. Yeah, that's the argument for me. I'm sorry you feel that way, mate. I thought it was good talking to you. Take care, mate. You don't wanna take this just for curiosity's sake because you might wanna, I mean, look, curiosity. Just curiosity, bro. Like you look into it one day, you might sit there and get bored and take care, bro. See ya. I hope that most people watching do not agree with him, but yes.