 Hi, and welcome to Dear to Dream. This is Debbie Daschinger, and today we're going to be having a conversation about something, at least in my circles, I can tell you, is something that fascinates a lot of people. It's something actually that people will pay money for, like pretty good money, because I think they feel left out of a certain section of information that they feel like would change their lives. I'm just saying because anytime I've ever brought it up at a party, everybody's like, ooh, do you know who does that? So we have somebody here today who does that, and out into the world, I am a media visibility expert, and I help people to write their book, take their book to bestseller, and also how to be interviewed on radio and podcasts, and where those shows are. I've been having a lot of fun with that, teaching the ultimate visibility formula to amazing entrepreneurs, spiritual entrepreneurs who are really ready to let their light shine much brighter out into the world. So it's an honor and pleasure to do that work. And with me today is Vertilus, somebody I've known for a couple of years. I want to first thank Dr. Dane here for sponsoring this show and Access Consciousness. If you're ready to do some pretty big-time energy work and shift things up like that, look up Dr. Dane here, Dr.com, as well as AccessConsciousness.com. They've got classes all over the world, whatever language and books and products, and there's definitely something for everyone, and it's a program about being definitely different and honoring that, and I love that. So my guest today is Vertilus, who's a traveler to 40 countries, author of two books, Codex of the Soul, at Aquarius Dawns, and also creator of Divine Timing Online School. He uniquely blends astrology, human design, and shamanic therapies into his life and business coaching. He teaches people how to honor their core patterns and helps them strategize using optimal time mapping and astralocality power places, as well as harmonic relating for love and business. His podcast is called The Practical Esoteric. Vertilus facilitates transformational workshops involving astrology, conscious relating, keynote concerts, dance, and shamanic healing worldwide. Welcome, finally, to Dare to Dream Vertilus. That's a kind of cool mug right there. How are you? Thank you, Debbie. Thanks. It's an honor to be here. I'm excited to be here, and there's so much to share, so we'll see where we go. Yeah. I'm curious, just because I know you at this time in life, the past couple of years, and you're definitely living a very particular existence that is very free, and it's really committed to what it is you love and what you came here to do. Was it always like this, or are you quite different than where you started out? I don't even know if you thought you'd end up here. So I'm curious about that whole suit. Well, definitely like the, I'd say the black sheep in the family, if you want to use that term. I mean, yeah, I think creativity was something that started my path of individuality. I'd say, you know, I'm playing the guitar and then getting into composing music and, you know, finding a voice. And then in writing as well that I continue to do now. But I think travel was probably the biggest thing that opened myself to my own particular genius. We all have our own genius, and we discover in different ways. And all of the exposure, you know, around the world. And through volunteering and teaching and, you know, different experiences and places really helped me discover more of, like, the essence of my own soul. And so, yeah, I mean, freedom has always been one of my core values for sure. But yeah, I mean, I guess that kind of changes over time as we age too, you know, whatever freedom means to us. And so, yeah, it's something very, very important to me. So is it like you started out life as an engineer? A civil engineer? You're here now, or did you always have a sense with creativity leading you that you were going to be doing something like this? I think it comes back to my first profound spiritual experience, which was pretty much a near death experience when I was 17. And I collapsed both of my lungs in different occasions spontaneously. And that happened when I was just 17 years old. They were six weeks apart from each other. And, you know, I couldn't breathe for a long time. And I felt like the wind was getting knocked out of me again and again and again and incredible pain. And it was, it was really, yeah, I felt like I was on death's door. And there was in the aftermath, a real kind of calling and almost like commandment from spirit to seize the day. To like get out there and go and to know from experience that life is precious and could be taken at any moment. And I think that that really compelled me to go travel and to do wild and crazy things, you know, that I've done. But just to know that, you know, this is it. And we don't know the next moment that it could be taken away. And at the same time, it was also a very unique experience. And it's literally called the spontaneous pneumothorax. It was spontaneous, what happened. But I later discovered that it was something that in shamanic cultures would be called an initiatory process, a rite of passage. And it would actually have made me into like a candidate for playing the role of the shaman in the culture, because I had survived this kind of near death experience. And so I would then be kind of initiated into that role. And that's actually a lot of what I do in my life. I lead shamanic ceremonies and healing work. And I take people sort of into their own souls through studying astrology and human design and these other tools. And so I knew that I was being called to something very different by having that experience at really such a young age. And it brought me really into a deep connection with spirituality and with just love as a pure experience. Because I felt love for so many different places in that moment of a lot of intensity and drama, relatively. I still had every person I knew come to visit me and care for me through a rite of passage. And I did learn later in my studies that, indigenously, that's almost like a vision quest or a shamanic rite of passage where you would come out the other side different and changed. And I really felt like that was the impetus for a lot of what came through my 20s and 30s. And you call yourself the practical esoteric, which is really interesting because esoteric basically means mysterious or cryptic. So explain that. It's really interesting putting those words together. Yeah, I mean, so I, in my mid 20s, when I was in Asia for about nine months, I was very open. It was a time in my life where I just knew like I wanted to discover and let spirits speak to me and travel and just be guided. And I had a number of experiences coming into contact with different kinds of astrology. And I was never exposed to it so much, you know, before that, but I wasn't opposed to it because, you know, I always had this mantra of like, if I don't know it, how can I judge it, right? Like, or I mean, judgment is never really good for any of us, but I was open, but it just hadn't come to my life. And then I got a Vedic astrology reading, a Tibetan astrology reading, some different modalities. And I was dating a woman in India who happened to know Western astrology. And each time I got these readings, I was like blown away with how much they resonated with my patterns in my life, especially around relationships to that point. And I realized I had to pay attention to this language and that it was that's what it was. It was a language describing my patterns. And I was like, well, if I use this language, then it can help me. And so I realized after I started to study astrology more that, especially around relationships. And then later I realized, whoa, around profession and career, this is very applicable, very practical. And yet it's been historically very esoteric or labeled as woo-woo or labeled as out there. But actually it's this very ancient science and it can be applied in every area of our life from our relationships to a career, to our spiritual growth, to where to live on the planet, which is an area that I focus on. And so I was like, wow, this is actually like something I was attracted to for many years, which was psychology, but in a laser pointed way where we can get right to the core issues. In a single session with somebody. And that really attracted me as a kind of budding coach and counselor that I could help people transform and grow and discover themselves very, very, in a kind of very accelerated path. So that's what I kind of meant by practical esoteric is how do we take these tools like astrology or numerology or human design, which are the three that I work with. And we bring them into, hey, what do I do with this every day of my life for my business, for my family, for love relationships, you know, and just involve that language into a real tangible way of practicing it in my life. You know, before we launch into all of that matter, which I intend to do, I just want to give you a little homage. When I teach my class, my ultimate visibility formula and beyond, I always reference you because you do something that I try to teach. I hope I teach it well, which is such a great example. And I teach my students that there has to be a lot of things you do when you are interviewed or when you pitch, right? It's not just one thing, but one of the things is statistics. And you have this amazing quote that you use when you pitch. I still think you're one of the best pitchers around. And you talk about J.P. Morgan. So I love the listeners, the watchers to hear that to start off with because it's pretty powerful. Sure. So if people don't know, J.P. Morgan is, you know, the one of the most famous entrepreneurs and business owners of all time in the 20th century. But J.P. Morgan is quoted as saying millionaires don't use astrology billionaires do. And it's factual evidence that J.P. Morgan visited an astrologer who's probably the most famous astrologer of the 20th century. Her name is Vangeline Adams. There's been a number of books written about her. She was a prime example of the female entrepreneur in the 20s and 1910s. But she came to fame because she actually kind of predicted a famous fire in a New York hotel. It was like the hotel in New York. And she survived that fire. But astrology was on trial at that time. Basically, because she got on trial as being a witch. And the judge told her, he basically gave her a chart and said, I want you to tell me what's going on or what happened with this person. And through this trial, she basically said that this person, whoever this chart was, was going to die by drowning amongst a few other things. And it turns out that the chart was the chart of the judge's son. And the judge's son had died in a drowning accident. And at that point, the judge dismissed the case against her and against witchcraft and said that after a number of discussions that astrology had a basis in science and that she was free to go. And it brought her into fame immediately. And she got a place in Carnegie Hall, where she actually counseled and worked with clients. Everyone from Charlie Chaplin to the young Joseph Campbell to royalty from around the world to J.P. Morgan. And J.P. Morgan was initially very, you know, very skeptical. But after a few sessions became quite a fan and regular client of Evangeline Adams. And so she worked with the, you know, the big names of the day and made quite a successful business in her life. But anyway, so, you know, there's been presidents, everyone from Ronald Reagan to Theodore Roosevelt. There's still, you know, in places like India and other places in the world, astrology is very integrated into governance. That was the old way. That was the Renaissance way. You know, but because Christianity came in and the Crusades basically made everything not Christ demonic. We lost the medicine and the teaching of astrology and And so yeah, a lot of astrologers today we we are really working at bringing that that realm that seems esoteric and and out there really into A practical form and I like to bring it into the realm of business a lot because it is the best tool that we have. I think for understanding timing, you know, when to invest went to hire went to fire. When to do a live event launch products and services, the when piece is huge. And that's why there are Wall Street brokers and bankers who work with astrologers because it works. And then you have the where, which is known as locational astrology where are my power places around the world because your chart changes or has different influences, depending on where you live. So I like to work a lot on that level because I've traveled so much. And so I know a lot around that that tool, but it's just fascinating and it's endless, you know, so That's a little bit about the JP Morgan story, you know, Thanks, cool. I like that. And it's such a great way to start this and open one's mind. And, you know, one of the things I find that people don't know a lot about is human design. I didn't even know about it. Maybe a year and a half ago, maybe You know what I had a reading. So it's really opened my mind to a whole mother piece of information that could be really informing. I recently was in a conversation with somebody Who said, Well, why is it so important? How has it changed your life? And I had to think about it. And I said, You know, Because it made things make sense and make things more easy. So for instance, I'm a two for generator, right. And when I learned that part of being a generator is I don't necessarily get to initiate things. I'm the one who waits for somebody to say, or in my case, a pattern of many people saying, Can you do this? I'd like this. And then I fulfill that need. I looked back on my life and said my entire career has been born that way. And I could also see that anytime in a career that I had efforted It wasn't with great results. But when I sat back and allowed it to come to me, it has had tremendous success. And that's just one piece of it. But there's so many ways that I was able to Embrace more of who I am indigenously. Yes, it felt much easier to be me rather than to try to figure things out the way we're supposed to. A lot of formulas we live with today is Entrepreneurs. But I think when you understand your own path and design, your own energy, it's much easier to be, you know, and to have success. Yeah. How would you describe human design to those who have never heard of it. Well, I'm teaching a training right now as we speak. That's all about applying this this tool into business and career and it's been a fascinating journey so far and it's really Essentially understanding our genetic patterns and, you know, it has a connection with astrology and in the sense that we use planets and human design, but we're focused again on that moment of birth. That is so essential, you know, the birthday time in the place. It's different than other personality assessment tools because in other personality assessment tools. You know, like a Myers Briggs or something like that. These are used and have been used for a long time, but there's always the personal bias, you know, that we have like I could be in a different mood and answer the questions differently tomorrow than I did today and you can't do that with your birthday and birth data, you know, so there's something right there that that says, you know, pay attention here. But what's interesting is that we have an image which is called body graph, which has a picture of these nine energy centers in human design and they each have a certain Formula of the genetic codes that are within us or the genetic codons the 64 gene keys that we all have within us. What design is showing you is what part of the genetic soup the collective genetic story that we all carry. What part do you carry in your life consistently reliably. What's the part of you that's defined and that is going to show up everywhere you go and it actually has a story around what your strengths are how you contribute to the world. And then it provides an energy type that you are, which has a certain decision making strategy in life that will work for you genetically. But a lot of times like you said we have these formulas we have these ways that we get influenced by our environment. So design and the body graph also shows you where you get conditioned by your environment influenced by your environment friends colleagues bosses. Lovers family members and those are areas where we are conditioned or open in our design. We can really get spun out. We can try to be something that genetically doesn't really work for us consistently. And yet those areas also can become resources of wisdom because wherever we're open. We study a lot. We learn a lot. We become educated in because we get so much information from the people around us. So if we learn to not take on the conditioning but instead to become like a mirror for that which shows up for us. We can actually learn how to profit and become abundant through the very energy centers where we could on the other hand become quite conditioned or spun out. So really we're learning about our genetic gifts and strengths but also where we can get a little bit you know spun out over over excited about it and try to be something genetically that we're not. And yet we can learn where we have wisdom and gifts to offer back to the world. And you know like you said knowing your energy type can help you choose your career that works for you or make decisions in your career. But then once you know your inner authority your place of making decisions like for you. It's an emotional place and that emotional place means we need time. Emotions take time to get clarity. We can't make a decision in the moment. We need to give ourselves a time you know in human design. We talk about an emotional wave a high and a low that we might ride like I get enthusiastic and excited. But I have to come down from the wave to I have to feel like maybe not. I feel a little bit uncertain depressed tragic whatever it might be. And that's also not a place to make the decision. The final decision that we make if emotions are our authority or inner truth. It's always going to come after time and the time to find that moment of clarity that Yes. I've always said to people you know people propose something to me and then they'll sit there and wait. And I'm like I'm the way I've said it without knowing what you just said I said I'm a digester. I heard you I see the buffet but you're going to have to let me go away and when I'm ready I'll come back with an answer. There is no way I could tell you right now. It happens all the time. I mean unless it's like you want an ice cream cone or not. That's pretty easy. Right. But I love how you said that an emotional person who needs to take their time to really sit through what their truth is what's And you know it's interesting in terms of business as I'm sharing with the students right now because a lot of you know this right A lot of times we get pressured into making decisions if we want to be a part of a program or training or Say yes to a coaching experience with someone and emotionally defined people which are 50% of the world. So After world you know if you do that to them there's one of two responses either they say no and then they miss an opportunity but they didn't really get the time to really sit and say you know that is right for me. Or the other hand they say yes because they get excited about it. But then it wasn't really right for them. Then they want their money back. Right. Or or the better strategy is that you give people who are emotionally defined a little bit of time to sit with it. Right. Because they they're really not designed to make a decision immediately like that. It's not good for them and the result will usually be that Business wise or in their career that situation doesn't work for them if they've made an immediate decision and so The ideal situation here. And this is what design is all about is that as people learn about the design they start to interact with each other more consciously. They appreciate the strengths and the gifts that everyone brings because every design And every person has individual gifts that they're building here. And as we learn about those and we can really work as a collective as a team at a pretty high frequency of consciousness. Human design talks a lot about like you know the shadow potential of something and also the very healthy or conscious potential of how our design plays out. And so it's about learning about our patterns so that we can involve our patterns. You know If somebody was Has been adopted and may know their birth date, but they don't know the time. Yeah. How do you process that information to talk about locality astrology design. Is there a way to do that. Yeah. So There's a little bit of a Hierarchy here, not hierarchy, but in terms of astrology. We can still interpret a chart, but we can interpret every element of the chart. Astrology's houses are determined by the birth time when you were born. So your rising sign. For example, people know about the rising sign that's determined by that exact time you were born. It changes every two and a half hours. So That is very significant if we want to do locational astrology or understanding how different places influence you now in you could still interpret other parts of the chart. But not everything in in human design. The time is less important because they don't work with the they don't have an ascendant or a rising sign of those kinds of things the houses. The it could still affect a few things with the moon and some things, but it's not as as much information won't won't shift. And then if you look at numerology. There's no birth time like that. That's not important numerology, at least in in traditional Pythagorean numerology. So that wouldn't really affect much at all. So then you have, you know, it depends on where somebody is that if they want To understand more of these esoteric layers about themselves. You know, it's just a question of, well, what information do you have how accurate is that birth time. And then we can determine what tools will best support you. You know, that's, that's one of the reasons I like to work with different systems because sometimes we don't have all the information. But also some people just can never get their astrology. You know, you've met people that just like I just can't. It's just not my world. And then they see their design and for the They're like, I get it done. I can practice this or the other way around, you know, and so that's the nice thing is that for all of us some tool Can can give us some deeper information about ourselves. And I think we're really in a time where we need to To adopt, you know, at least one of of these quote unquote esoteric tools to help guide us whether that's in, you know, relationships or business or any area of our life. Very cool. We're going to talk more about this. We come back. You're listening to dare to dream radio and podcast. You can become part of the dare to dream team. And you can donate to the show at patreon.com slash dare to dream. You have a really big purpose to fulfill if you're here you do. So I ask, what would you do if you knew you could not fail. What would it take for you to feel completely free and bold dare to dream is always going to be free to you and we welcome your support of the show. It helps to take care of the very many admin business sites that we're on and more just to run this plus to bring in the quality guests that we do. So for $1 less than a cup of coffee or more. You can really make a difference. And I thank you in advance. This is podcast number one transformation conversation go to patreon.com slash dare to dream. And if you're tuning in after we're started. I'm Debbie dasher dare to dream and I'm interviewing vertilus. If you'd like to find out more about him and the work he does go to divine timing coaching.com so you mentioned something earlier vertilus that I'm interested in. If you were referencing human design and you said something about you're being open openings and I want to make sure I understood you correctly. And the reason why I was reflecting on it is I once had a friend who's not you not a professional but just sort of loves to dabble and she looked at my you talked about the body you sort of body. Yeah body. Yeah. And there's something like sort of in this whole part of me here she was like oh my god there's so much open in your body graph. Yeah. And I didn't know what it meant and she seemed to think it was something marvelous but What does that mean is that a good sign or Well, so so in human design there's nine energy centers and or energetic functions that we we all go through processes and they can be defined in us which means they're consistent or reliable places of information, genetic information for it, or they can be undefined, which means in a body graph it looks white or open. And that just means it's not consistently available for us, but we can learn a lot there we can get educated a lot, but on the other hand we can get conditioned or we can play out some distractions there because where we're undefined is changing depending on the way we experience it is changing depending on who we're around. And so, for instance in your design you have the undefined what we call the self center or the identity center. And it's very open for you. And so that center is a lot about our direction in life, but also about a sense of who we are. And when this is undefined, one of the great strengths or the healthy expressions of this is that you can show up without any agenda. You're ready to check out what somebody else is about to show up for whatever energies needed in the moment. And it's what makes you such a great podcast host because you can really tune into the other and just be present to whatever that other can really show up and you can ask the questions to help them reveal themselves. And that's one of the gifts of that undefined center because you're not coming with like, this is who I am and this is what I'm about. And because that the identity center when it's defined in a way it has an agenda, it has a direction. It knows who it is, it knows where it's going. That doesn't mean it's bad or good depends how we work with that. But the undefined identity center, the shadow of that or the challenge for that is in essence we can become a chameleon. And that chameleon quality can make us at times lose our own center and we can actually become whatever somebody wants us to become. That quality often in relationship can create sometimes situations where we become another person's picture or ideal and we can actually get spun out in terms of, well, I think you should be this or I think this is your path. And then we go down that path. We could go down that path for years. For instance, family members, parents want us to study something or think we should be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever it is. And we're undefined in the self center so we do what they think we should do. And then we're already in that career and we're like, this is never what I wanted. Or in a personal relationship, you know, we can show up and wear many different costumes. We can be different things. And we can be what somebody wants us to be. And at the end of the day or at the end of many years, we might end up realizing that we weren't really ever true to ourselves. And we had invested so much energy becoming what somebody had envisioned us to be that we don't even know so much who we are anymore. And that's sort of the shadow potential of that. Again, the higher potential would be that we don't, we don't try to be one thing. And that includes somebody's version of what we should or shouldn't be. So the best way of working with that undefined or open center is to really allow spirit to just move through us. And we're able to just really be present to whatever situation we're in and we can be a conduit for whatever's needed in that moment. And we don't have so much of an agenda and we're not building any kind of dependency, codependency in relationship because now I've become something somebody wants me to be. And if I don't be that anymore, then who am I? And then they're like, well, I thought you were this. So that that's something we have to be careful of. And that's why when you learn about your design and especially where you're open, you're very susceptible to being conditioned by those environmental factors. And that's the value of learning the openness, you know, so there's a gift in it, but there's a potential that can kind of take you out or we can call it a shadow or a distraction in those open centers. And how about you then, Vertilus? So anytime you get interested in another human being in a romantic love, lust kind of situation, are you like, can I get your chart data and get back to you? I mean, do you really check people out to figure out the compatibility or do you let yourself go into things and figure them out later? I'd say over the course of the last 13 years, which is as long as I've known about astrology deeply, it's been a mixed story with that question. I mean, sometimes I've wanted to know right away and then sometimes I've just let things be as they are, you know, because we all can be susceptible to projection. You know, you see, you see a connection a certain way or you see an archetypal pattern. But the thing is that both of these tools or numerology, any tool of self-awareness does not tell you the level or the frequency of consciousness. Someone is bringing to their patterns. So, you know, I mean, I learned that a long time ago from one of my first astrology teachers that you can look at a chart, but you will not know the kind of consciousness someone is bringing to those patterns. That's a meme. I feel like that's a meme right there. I'm not kidding. Like that's tweetable. That's so interesting to me because you just put something in perspective. I never thought about it. I feel like you just blended science and spirituality in those sentences because as you started this interview, you said, oh, there are people who are like, this is not my world. They want nothing to do with it. And then there are people who are just fascinated and hungry for it. And when you say it in that way, I hear you saying that it is a science and it can talk a lot about what's going on, potentially could go on. But there's this other aspect that will be the greatest influence above all else. And without acknowledgement of that or experience of that, this just can't rest on its laurel, so to speak. You know, have you are you familiar with the term epigenetics? Yeah, I am. So that whole that's newer science in the last 20 to 30 years and that the basis of that is that here, like in human design, we talk about these genetic patterns, these genetic codes that we have. Well, in the old paradigm, that meant basically you were genetically faded. We said, you know, these are your genes. That's what it is. But as we've discovered that your belief systems and the way you your attitudes are held. I mean, and this is all new science and new thought and everything we learned in the secret and so on and so forth. Your attitude, your beliefs affect the expression of your genes. So epigenetics is all about the fact that it isn't faded in the sense of deterministic. We do have patterns. We do have genetic codes. We do have some things that are inbuilt, but the way we express them, the level of consciousness that I'm speaking to that we choose to express that then determines how they actually manifest how those patterns will actually be present in our lives. And that's why unless we know the patterns, unless we know the genetic codes or the archetypal patterns in astrology, it's hard to know the best way of expressing those or the highest frequency of expressing those or how to be like epigenetically intelligent and express that at a high frequency. So that's the value of this course of study is to know, hey, I know I have patterns. We all know we do. But if I can get into the vocabulary of that a little bit, then I can know the best way of expressing that not only for my own benefit, but for my family, my, my, my partners and for the world as a whole. And so you work with people in groups and privately. Is that right? Also classes it sounds like. Yeah, we're doing like this live business training right now I have online classes in astrology and design and then, and then yeah one on one coaching. You know, everything from just holistic life coaching to to more business focused coaching and how to apply these tools in a practical way for those purposes. And I'm curious, because you have access to all of this, certainly for yourself, your clients as well. When it comes to you when you say freedom is your highest value, and you live the kind of way you've often lived a nomadic life you've been staying in one place for a little bit now. However, I know you and I know at a moment's notice you could, you know, another choice could come up. So inherent in living a lifestyle like that, where you're really honoring that value is also a high level of manifestation. So how do you use everything you know and have at your fingertips, these tools in your life in order to manifest that level of freedom, travel, partners, music, expression, workshops that you take and give all of it. Yeah, it's a great question. I mean that that's that's the goal that I have with clients to is to take the tools and then, okay, let's strategize life around this let's let's empower ourselves to this you know it's not just oh that's interesting. It's actually like very very tangible practical applicable. I mean one of the ways for myself is understanding the cycles that I'm in so I'm able to understand that. Okay, this this next year here are some of the peak emotional energies I might feel here some of the peak career energies that are coming here are the best times for me to launch a product or service. Here's, you know, the, the best times to be social or to be more on my own and kind of doing some inner work, you know, I can know every year the best times for all of those areas of life that are important to us. So I definitely work with that as kind of my my personal rhythms and then and that happens like on the the shorter term scale and then the longer term scale right so like day to day week to week also to to to this year next year and beyond. Then you have like Astro locality being one of the the main ways that I've worked with it so um you know that that is a tool that that shows us where we you know where different places have different energies for us have different influences for us so I've done some more strategic relocation in the last few years. What I mean by that is, I know that in different parts of the world, different planets, different parts of my own soul are going to be more activated, defined triggered. They're going to be more awakened in certain places. And depending on what I'm calling into my life, like for instance, as a teacher of some of these things, there are places in the world where my teaching, you know, theoretically could be more successful or more received. And then I've actually gone to those places, set up experiences workshops, teaching retreats, and found that those places were successful for me or they brought in clients or, you know, I earned more resources there. So I, I always have sort of my antenna around different parts of the world, and also at different times, because some places are very strong at certain times for certain things. And, and then, you know, other places are powerful for other things so I'm always kind of aware of powerful places generally, and then also at certain times of life. So then that can create some strategy around when to go where. And if people have a little bit of flexibility in their life, a lot of people becoming more location independent, you know, you don't have to work in one place. Digital Nomad is what we call this two at times. But you can really start to find places where you might find the spiritual community you want, or the kind of tribe, or a relationship you want, or a kind of career path that fits what your desire is. And that's one of the ways to use this tool very strategically. So that's, that's one of the primary ways that I've done it. And yeah, I mean, there's many examples of that, but whether it's in the States or Europe or Asia, I've traveled to some places where, you know, I've called in relationships or more money or repeating clientele, for instance. And that those are the potentials when you start to apply this. Amazing. So Astralocality, that's a big one. Everybody I know seems to want a piece of that. And when you teach your class, just so I'm clear, are you teaching how people can use these tools themselves? Or are you teaching them about themselves in the class? It depends on what class it's, it's usually both like, like right now my human design training is teaching people about their own designs and how to apply that to creating a business, or being in the right career that really works for their energy. So we're getting into business modeling and all of that, but we're applying the tool and it's a certification training. So after the second level, they will be able to read these charts and apply it in their own coaching or clientele work. But for instance, with Astralocality, I'm rarely teaching that I'm doing sessions for people because it's quite intricate. You have to be quite at astrology to begin with, to know how to interpret locations for people. Okay, so DivineTimingCoaching.com? Yeah, that's that's where people can find out more. I have videos about Astralocality there, you know, using some famous charts. I talk about Tony Robbins, I talk about Brad Pitt, and that's where people can kind of get it, you know, because you know a little bit about some of these people and and then it starts to land and make sense. Cool. Well, folks, speaking about business, I've got an exclusive deal for you for Dare to Dream listeners only. I have a really unique and awesome deal with Thinkific. And if you're a listener, you can use this code to create, you can market, you can sell your own online courses. It is a really powerful all in one platform. They've gotten so big that major corporations as well as pretty big entrepreneurs that you know use this. It grows your business. It's easy to share your knowledge. It helps you become scalable. And whether you're educating 10 students or 10 million, Thinkific offers the easiest technology and best support. I've got my platform there. I am freaking loving it. My products are there. So beautiful and so easy to drag and drop, which is big for me. So you can use this link. It's thnk.cc slash Deb. And when you go there and use that code, you will get the first three months free to have your own business plan and platform there to set up your online courses. And the only way you can access that is by using thnk.cc slash Deb. Go there. I promise you won't be sorry. It makes your life pretty fabulous and easy. And I'm interviewing Verdeleus. Again, you can find out more at DivineTimingCoaching.com. This is Jared and Dream. And your music, Verdeleus, how's that going? What's new on the music front for you? Well, thanks for asking. Well, these days, I'm still composing quite a bit of ambient music and sort of meditation soundscapes. They can be great for healing work or ceremonies or just meditation. I love that music. We're also crazy and chaotic, most of us in our lives. So that sound can really help to calm us. I'm still doing a little DJing here and there. So I have DJ sets too. And yeah, I still play guitar and I write guitar music all the time. So that's my creative muse. She likes to play out in a number of different ways. Where can people hear your music? I have my original music. So the site is bandcamp.com, which has a lot of artists on it. But my artist name is Celestie Owl. Like Celestie Owl in one word, Celestie Owl.bandcamp.com. And that has all my original music. And then the DJ music is my name. So VerdeLuz. But it's soundcloud.com, soundcloud.com, backslash VerdeLuz. And there's a lot of DJ sets on there. And it's V-E-R-D-A-R-L-U-Z. Yeah. Okay. After locality, I think it's really cool. And I completely understand why people are so fascinated to know more about it. And I will say, I only had a mini reading with you, right? But I was very grateful because I've had some non-professionals come in and give me advice about where I live. And I actually walked away feeling really uncomfortable. Because I was essentially hearing from people who are not professional, you're not living where you should live, which is f-ed up, right? It's like, but I live here. So you came in and you were like, no, you're exactly where you're supposed to be. Like, Los Angeles is your hotspot. Right person, right place, doing the right thing. And then you were kind enough to mention a couple other places in the U.S. And I actually remember all of them. You know, I know there was one in Florida. I know Austin, Texas, you mentioned. You mentioned London. You said, don't live in London, but go work there. You'll do great. And things like that I felt were really freeing, you know? And also, when it's such a big planet, and you have an area of focus, you could say, oh, okay, this place is a pocket, this place, it makes it so much easier to navigate. I would love to hear from you some success stories you've had working with people who got your services and what they used it for to make all this ease or abundance in their life or love, whatever. Yeah, wonderful. It's great to hear your feedback too about that. And I know you're in the right place there. So much magic has happened for you there. Well, there's, jeez, where do we start with that? Well, there was a client that, so, it's really interesting because these planetary lines, just like we talked about, they're all about frequency, you know? Like, they're all about, there can be a shadow potential, there can be a high potential, you know? And one of the clients, so, they had the planet Pluto. Pluto is a dwarf planet, but it's pretty damn strong, the way we experience it. Pluto is all about transformation and empowerment, or potentially power struggles, control issues. Pluto rules the shadow realms, but Pluto was for this client in the area of career. And this was happening in Germany. Now, this client was from the States. And Pluto in the area of career could show up a few different ways. One of them being you could have power struggles or, you know, manipulation or control issues in the career path or around authority figures that you're working with. You know, there could be some serious battles going on there. Or in the case of this client, who actually went to this place, you could become the most impactful, most influential, most powerful of anywhere around the world. Pluto, you become the force of transformation there. So, we kind of painted that picture of possibilities. Now, this person actually went to Germany and they, where they were specifically in the country, they launched a particular technology product there. And they pretty much became sort of famous in Germany and not only famous, but extremely wealthy, multi-millionaire. Pluto, the word Pluto means wealth. Actually, the word means wealth. And so, you know, he used it to the high perspective and became someone who brought a lot of transformation to the industry there, disrupted the industry, and had a multi-million dollar business, did not stay living there after a few years, mostly for family reasons, wanted to move back to the States. But that's where he made his fortune. And so, you know, there's that example. And I could just, if you, if we have a moment, I can share the other side of a Pluto story. Yeah, I love that. Not using it wisely, story. Well, it was more like this, because some people are already committed to traveling somewhere or to moving somewhere. And then they want to know how, you know, what's going on there, how best can I work with it. So, I had a client who was a friend of mine too, and he was going to Bali. Now, you think Bali, and you're like, well, paradise, awesome, you know, island. And when I looked at his chart, he had two different influences, because there's a number of ways the planets can influence us in a location. It's quite in depth. So he had two crossings of Pluto, literally, I mean, right over the island of Bali. I mean, very, very strong. And the closer you are to a planetary line or influence, the stronger the extreme expression of it can be. Pluto's already an extreme planet. So I told him, look, you're already going here, you're going to go there for like a month or so. With Pluto's energy, first of all, be careful with your things and with your stuff, because Pluto can bring criminal energy into our life. Shady or shadowy energy. Now, it could also bring up our own shadow very strongly. You know, where we resist things, our ego gets very strong, we get into power struggles, you know, these unconscious emotions surface. So he was going with a new partner. So I told him, you know, things could get pretty intense or dramatic. So be careful with that and try to witness any negative emotions. So be careful with your things, you know, watch any kind of manipulation, things like that. Don't become paranoid. But be on your toes, you know, and if something does come up, don't resist it. Pluto is the Lord of Surrender. You know, that you, you know, there's something powerful that's going to happen. You cannot fight it. And if you do, it will get worse. So we talked more, but after he came back, he shared with me that in the first week that he was there, he was mugged on his motorbike and he had $3,000 in his wallet. Now, I don't know why he had $3,000, but he lost all the money. He was in a very dire situation. He had to call in his brother to wire him money. Of course, he knew our reading. So he, he didn't fight the experience. I know it was intense for him, but he knew that it was pretty much what we had talked about that kind of shadowy journey going on there. And with his partner, he actually had a really profoundly beautiful experience. And they did do some kind of tantric workshops and retreats and some, some sacred sexuality, which is a high expression of Pluto. And, and so he had sort of that silver lining to it. But it was one of those examples where even though Bali is Bali, you know, in this very beautiful island, his energy there was this underworld intense volcanic Pluto energy. And so that's, that's the important thing is that yes, different places have different energies on their own. But how you interact with that is really depending on your chart. And there's going to be, you know, some places that are incredibly strong like that, that you want to know going in the best ways of working with that. Wow. That is so interesting. What a story. And this guy definitely should listen to you next time. Like, call for it to lose first please before you make your travel arrangements. I have this incredible sensitivity to location. And it's always been like that, everything from someone's home, room, a city, country, absolutely. And I could tell you like Italy for me, I could so buy a second home there and be beyond the beyonds. I just, whatever, that's past life or this life, I don't know. Then I go to, so I feel that way a lot with Europe. And then when I go to a Latin country, I'm like my EKG flat lines, you know. And I had that in Costa Rica. And I know, I understand why it's an amazing country for so many reasons. And I understand so many people love it and want to retire there. For me, it's like meh. And I bring that up because I'm on a journey right now where I'm going to, I have this amazing invitation to fulfill something that's super up for me, which is plant medicine. And to spend seven days in Costa Rica, country, I didn't think I was going back to, but there's a pretty amazing situation there waiting for me. And it will be definitely this year in the next probably four or five months. So that said, I'm just curious. You know, should I pay attention to the fact that for me, like Costa Rica is kind of like whatever, or is it like because this situation, I really feel like it's been divine manifestation, like zero effort on my part just came that I should just keep following that energy because that's sort of how I live my life is following energy. Well, I mean, one, one, one point is you've had, you've had something to respond to in your human design, you know, this person or people ask you to come to this. And again, it's an emotional thing for you, you have to sit with it, you get excited about it, maybe you like Costa Rica, but is it in your mind the Costa Rica thing, that it's not a good thing, or is it really in the emotions, you know, that's the first thing is to give you, you know, listen to your design. It's something you need to respond to, give yourself the time to tune in to your emotional clarity. And then secondly, I would say then you then you want to validate and confirm and get more insight by looking at the, the astrolocality there. And that astrolocality has the permanent energies that are there for you, and it also has the transiting or forecasting energy. So if it's November or whenever this year, and you want to see what's going on there, there may be something there for a month or a year or whatever, that is really strong for you. But maybe permanently not much is there. It could be the other way around too, but sometimes if we only go to a place for a week, you can bet that the cycles that are there are extremely important and sometimes more important or more tangible than what's permanently there. I mean, it makes sense, right? If you have a permanent energy in a location, you might not feel that if you're there for three days, but you would for three years. Yeah, but if you're there for just a week, and there's a cycle, maybe Venus is in that area for three days. Maybe there's some relationship theme going on there for just those couple days, you know, so there's, there's those two layers. And that's why I said when we look at a locational map, we have a lot of information going on everywhere at all times. And that's why I have a number of different sessions I offer, because depending on what level of depth somebody wants, there, there's a lot of information in a location. Wow. Ding, ding, ding. Cool. Thank you for that. Yeah. That was good. It was, it was a lot to think about. Or a mode about. Yes. To the end, can you tell me what do you next dare to dream, Vertilus? What are your future dreams and goals? Well, right now it's, it's, I'm getting grounded right now. I'm actually going to be doing some writing courses this summer, so I'm going to be working on some of my writing. And I'd like to publish a book of flash fiction, mostly like travel humor from my experiences and also some, some poetry I write poetry and have for a long time. So grounding can help me to get those creations going. And in the fall, I'd like to also work on some more coaching and some, some work with more human design and an astrology, whether it's for business or for relationship. I think both of those will be calling and, and then yeah, continue to do music whenever the invitation comes to me. Beautiful. I'm so glad you came on today. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah, thank you again for the invitation and I hope it's been inspiring for, for you and for all the listeners. Absolutely. So again, divine timing coaching.com for Vertilus. And I end today's show with this quote. So what if, instead of thinking about solving your whole life, you just think about adding additional good things, one at a time. Just let your pile of good things grow. Next up on Dare to Dream podcast, I'm featuring my friend, Dr. Michael Gross, and we're going to be talking about his new book, The Spiritual Primer, This Guy's the Mom. So you definitely want to tune in for this number one transformation conversation. You can subscribe to these on the radio stations, iHeart, BBS Radio, Spreaker, as well as youtube.com slash Deb on the radio and iTunes. Leave us a five star review. It works and gets the right people here to listen. And remember the secret of success is having the courage to begin in the first place.