 Alright, so there have been a few changes. One that's really mostly of interest to Bob or other people doing serious curatorial work is that when you touch a category like community, for example, we load up the corresponding category page from the wiki. And at this point it would be good to mention that I am not using caching anymore there is no local cache of web pages of HTML. I did the, I actually went ahead and built a database of not only the wiki but also all the forum posts, and even compressed it goes to 60 got as high as 60 megabytes and that's without a full text index which is what I was planning to do next. And that just struck me as unwieldy I'm happy to have a conversation about that I know Bob has got an alternate perspective on the situation. But this particular version does not use a cache and its databases under two megabytes compressed so it's much more much more tractable. And as you move from category to category we load up the corresponding category page, everything else still behaves the way it used to. In that regard. I got all the forums up so J beta J chat J database J general J programming and J source. I did find. So I lied to you last week when I said that I don't fit. There is a post from 2016 that I now cannot find it was in January of 2016. Oh, maybe. Yeah, this one almost doesn't fit. There's another one that goes right off the page. So I do need to come up with another mechanism for for showing the forums. The scrolling mechanism or paging mechanism this isn't going to fly in the general case of the forums. Another thing that's different is search. So for search I am using the remote services, and I search not just the wiki but I also search the forums so if you go looking, if you go looking for say, dietic transpose. So the words that you typed in actually become part of the table of contents on the left for reasons that we'll get to in a moment, and you get two separate sets of excuse me two separate sets of search results. These are the wiki search results and they look. I decided just to show them in or in the ordering which they come back from the search engine on the assumption that that's the order that's relevance ordered. It's not true somebody, somebody let me know but I assume that's the case. So you can load up each of them and turn or jump around, but I also show forum results ordered again in the order in which they came back within each forum. So if you don't think Jay Chat is likely to have anything interesting on dietic transpose you might jump directly to Jay programming and see see what the results look like. So what I put it into the table of contents that way is that I figure there's no reason search results should be ephemeral. So if you're looking for other things, say random fixed seed. We'll go ahead and add that to the table of contents as well and you'll get the results for that so it in a sense you can think of this table of contents as being a window into the entire Jay software website not just code. You can also go to www.jsoftware.com the wiki, but also www.jsoftware.com which is where the forum posts are hosted at this point, and you essentially get a single integrated view into all of that material plus all the searches that you've done. If they start to pile up and they're becoming less interesting to you we do have a clear searches button that will take them all away, but you should feel free to go ahead and put new searches in whatever whenever you wish. So, Ed, what's the significance of the red bar and the kind of gray line there it looks like a histogram. So the red bars are document counts for the corresponding section of the table of contents so community has a boatload of documents because it has a fair number of children. So actually the big contributor is user groups the New York City Jay users group meeting notes that bar wide by contrast blogs is pretty modest so its bar is fairly small frameworks is larger, and so on. The gray bar is your scroll bar. So if you move your mouse into the gray bar area the gray bar turns violet, and that's how you scroll up and down the table of contents and so that's where you are. That's where you are. And then if you move out the bar turns gray again, and you can navigate from subcategory to subcategory. So it's just mechanism. Does the length indicate anything there. Of what you get a little gray line and like on top of the red line looking up above there, and they're different lengths. Oh, that's just a representation of the text of the category. So the the gray lines that you see up here are just meant to take the place of the text the words. Okay. So it's literally a character account for the title. It's a pixel count. Yeah, I look at how wide the word the phrase would be in pixels and I draw a gray line that's that width. It's just a it's just an orientation visual, not to surprise your mechanism, but apparently isn't working very well because it wasn't obvious what was going on, maybe if they were darker, the same color as the as the text. One of the other things I'll point out is when you're in the white section. That's when you click and make your selection. If you go back over to the gray section and drag the white, the selection will stay and it'll be that darker blue. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, I see. Yeah, okay. Which I don't think is a bad thing you just have to remember to go over to the white to select. You won't be able to select in the great. Yeah, I'm the wrong guy to pass judgment on this mechanism but I got used to it pretty quick. It seems fairly natural to me now. The one thing that bothers me is that if you do go up, you actually wind up selecting the collapsed categories, and that doesn't work very well. When you move over, it jumps and it's not at all obvious what just happened to you. Yeah, and I what I think I'd like to do is animate that paging up or paging down to wherever you touch the touch the great rectangle. So it's a little less disorienting when it happens but that's a that's a minor thing. And that's about it for this week. Questions or comments I'd be very happy to take at this point. It looks, it looks really nice I think maybe just to an intro page explaining kind of what you just said, you know the significance of the bars and would be good. But what I need to do is implemented better so I don't need an explanation page but so I take your point but it's not exactly the point that you're making I guess. I just need to do a better job presenting it visually I think. So you've given me something to think about and I appreciate that. One thing that might help for me that that violet color is very subtle from in on my screen. When you pointed out to me I know look for it but until then I didn't couldn't tell it from an artifact of my vision. Gotcha. All right well I don't want anybody questioning their sanity so all right maybe I'll try. I will try making it darker. The other place move move your cursor off and back on to it because you get the effect of it graying and then changing color. But I think the point David was making is that it's just, it's a it's too subtle a transition. And if you're if you don't happen to be watching when it happens you might miss that there was a change. So I want to one of the things I did in the most recent version was like darkened the horizontal bars to make them a little to make them stand out a little more. And that's why I can't intense increase the intensity of the currently violet bar and a violet stripe and make it more more visible. I think one other suggestion I have, please. Some of these times some of the time these these names are clickable and brings up a page and other times they're not. I would suggest when they are clickable use the blue color that's normally used for hyperlink so that people will know that's a hyper you know they'll have some intuition there. So this is something that doesn't come across very well in a demo unfortunately it's something you only realize when you use it. There is no clicking in this interface with one exception that I haven't shown you, there is only hovering. I've got a whole philosophical thing about that that we could get into but really everything, or almost everything should bring up something I mean exceptions would be search for it or I don't really have anything to show you. But actually, even though, like, what since you put in the categories. So the days display, I think everything you hover over display something. Almost everything search does not new book obviously does. Well, the new book doesn't really. Oh yeah, I made it. I made a reference page for new book over search for a second. Thank you pardon over over search for a second. I think you'll see a changes there. Yeah, I think that may be an accident to be honest. Yeah, David, I take your point. I think the answer is probably to make sure that no matter what you hover over something reasonable pops up. Because I think we could probably do that, and then we wouldn't need to distinguish between two different types of links or as I think of them sensitive spots. I might guess that that's raw. What's asking those questions. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't even know that you were on I can't see any video at this point because I guess you don't when you're sharing your screen unless you. You don't have a sidebar. Yeah, well, you'll either have a sidebar or you'll have a dropdown that is maybe compressed right now. I see. And if you find it and you click on it, you'll see all of us. Well, that'll be nifty. Yeah. And it's either a sidebar. I'm seeing it right now as a sidebar, but I've also seen it as a pop up if I'm going full screen, but because I'm going to save that for another time. I'm not obviously seeing. Yeah. What the answer is. Yeah. Does anybody want to kick around the question of whether to have a probably 100 megabyte cache that would have to be downloaded. It doesn't seem totally ridiculous, maybe slightly but how often. Well, true. True. Okay, so the question is what's the incremental benefit. So when I was fooling with the cash at some point earlier on in the in the exercise. I was struck by how the cash was not much faster than loading up pages from the server on the connection I had in the United States. And I think what's going on there is that in that particular scenario. I suspect that the true cost, the bulk of the cost was not the line time or the server time. The bulk of the cost was the parsing and rendering time in the browser or in the web view. And that's that you're sort of stuck with, whether you're using a local cash or pulling pages off a server. And I haven't done any formal measurement. I'm not even sure how I, how I do it really to be sure about that. But my, my guess is that the incremental benefit of that 100 megabyte downloading that 100 megabyte file, however often would be pretty modest. The other reason for doing it. Now I've got, how do I get rid of this. The other reason for doing it would be to be able to do local searches, which I was very enamored of. I'm not as convinced of that anymore either. These are where all you mentioned threading off search last week as a way of keeping the application responsive but 1000 2000. Okay, so it's under two seconds to get results back for both the forums and the wiki. 100 megabyte file is worth it to get searches down to say 100 milliseconds. Yeah, it doesn't sound like it if that's the difference. Well, the other thing I'm thinking about is right now we've got the answer to this, maybe immaterial because I'm not sure what's in your cash is are all the web pages in your cash. All the wiki pages were in it, and all the forum posts were in it. And that was the 60 megabyte. Is that right? Yeah. So what I'm thinking is right now we've got something that whenever you hover, it goes out and grabs that page. And it's very responsive, which is excellent. Yeah, I'm looking at is what does that mean to the server. You're moving your mouse around is hitting the server a lot of times. That's true. That's an interesting point that I admit I never thought about. And so what I was thinking on my walk today was that you've mentioned that hover. You know, you're predominantly hover which I have an entirely in favor of because it's so responsive. It's so quick it changes how you look at the information. And I'll be interested to see to see what we haven't seen that use click for, but from my memory what you previously I heard that when you click on something. That's when you kind of lock that page so you go to other pages you can always get back to the page that you clicked on is that right. That is, that is right. And I'll sort of. So for example, if we go to the IRC bots, I wonder what that was about. Normally if you wanted to say scroll this web page, you couldn't I would love to be able to scroll it in place so right now operate my mouse wheel for example and just scroll that page that would be ideal. Talk to the web view web view that way as far as I know so that's not possible. What you can do is if you click which I just did. As Bob said you lock down that page and even though hovering loads up other pages. It's your default now. So if you come over here to the web page this is the, excuse me to the web view, the community IRC bots pages the one that will load up and you can then, you can then scroll it. I'm not sure I would be too concerned about the load with I definitely, I mean, it's a concern and I try and get information on it by talking to Chris or something. But it's going to be so small compared to like a video stream in terms of at least volume of information that the overhead is going to be number requests rather than than volume than throughput I think. I'm not sure I'm not sure that I'd worry too much at this stage about that issue it's something you might want to circle back on later though. I guess another consideration is that I think just by default by being on the web, you're taking advantage of caching services. I might actually I know that that's probably not true that I think I don't think Jay softwares behind a CD and although maybe it should be maybe we should put chip and some money and give them a CD and support. I guess Bob the other perspective on this is I would love to give Chris that problem. I would love to drive traffic to the point where the server would the server or the service would need to be upgraded. That's a serious point that's a humorous point. I'll tell you my solution that my solution is when you hover, you'd be hitting everything that's cashed. When you click on something, you go up to the website. And what what would that achieve. It would mean you could hover to your heart's content. It's not even going to the server, nothing no traffic. When the first the first hit would have to go. I mean if you don't have it in cash already you'd have to when you put. Well, no, I mean, unless you're downloading the entire site, you're going to have to load the pages at some point. No, that's what I'm saying is you would you would download the entire site that's the 60 megabyte or 100 megabyte file we're talking about. Once it has the potential to be out of date, which is one drawback. But if you click on a page, you will go to the site and actually retrieve what's there. So that clicking would be a way of getting the most recent version if you were concerned. Yes, I see. And it would also give you in full web interactivity when you clicked on something. You lost me. In an edit if you clicked on it. I think you know there is one other thing that it does that I forgot to mention. So I don't know on Bob if you've tried to log in and the web view. All right, it might be worth a try but the other thing is now I implemented something where if you double click. It loads up the current page in Safari on the Mac. There was a marvelous post about how to do this cross platform that unfortunately didn't work. But it will work for Safari on the Mac at this point. And the event that's triggering that is a double click, right? Double click. Yeah. And then automatically goes to whatever your default browser is, which you can set. No, unfortunately, the only code I could find launched Safari. So it's Safari and you can only do it on a Mac at this point. I've run into one or two things where I need to make them cross platform right now they only work on a Mac. And that is one of them. Well, anyway, my solution to the how we would use the cash is you might download. You, well, you could also, I mean, if you want to get really fancy, you could download an increment so that when you had a current cash and you decided to refresh it would only refresh the recent changes up to the point. Right. So you could reduce traffic that way too. But the point being that if you click on something, you're no longer going to the cash, you're automatically going up to the web and pulling right off the server. Right. Now, the advantage to having it on site is you actually can be off grid. You don't have to be hooked in there. That that is a whole separate thing. And I yeah, we would have to decide that that was a buyer value as it were. But people wanted to be off grid and still have access to this and we might, we might in fact decide that that's true. I just for myself for development. Even the amount of downloading that I have to do just to build the local database that I've got which is much, much smaller is a significant delay and I was finding it quite frustrating. I imagine asking somebody to live with that worse by an order of magnitude and it just or two. I agree with you because I did the same thing in your early versions and it's not. Yeah, it's manageable but you don't want to have to go through that every time you get into this thing. Right. If you had something on your computer that had already been downloaded once. You're just as quick and you don't have to. Well, again, it's a good point. You can talk to Chris and see whether the volume of hits is an issue, not just the volume of information. Right. And I guess one way we could approach this is to say let's see if we have a problem. Yeah. We deliver this and Chris says uncle. At that point maybe we think about alternate approaches, including an enormous cash enormous local cash. It's good not to optimize too early. Exactly don't tune too soon as they say. Yeah. Now something I didn't notice the very first time I opened this up and was going off the server and everything. I noticed the first area that I noticed was that I didn't have access to the forums. So it actually told me that I got in once and then the next time I tried it told me that page was not available. And I didn't know whether this was something that had been set up with the forum site that if you were trying because I was going through a number of different pages. And it may just have been a fluke that at some point that server was down at that time I was testing because I've never seen it again. I have run into similar problems actually Bob with the forums. And what seems to be going on is that if you try to get in with HTTP. You will sometimes have a problem you'll be rejected. I was running into that with the links I was building in my database I was I was using HTTP links, because that's what the forum uses. When it's linking to its own material in a certain set of search results for example, if you use HTTPS which I do now exclusively for the forums that will for everything. It goes through I've never had a problem that way. And it's transient isn't when it was HTTP HTTP, because I didn't notice it all the time. No, sometimes, sometimes it would work typically. I found it would not, but you're right sometimes it did. I guess that's it in terms of what I hope to do next. There are a number of bugs that I hope to fix. I'm going to try to come up with a scrolling mechanism for forums or a mechanism for managing large numbers of posts in a subject. I'll respond to offline requests Bob has been pretty good about finding things that are wrong and making requests for new features and I really appreciate that. And that's it. Thanks very much. Not wanting to constrain you but I think you could use the same language for the forum posts are using on your left table with the lines and only show up when you're hovering over. I think that that could work on probably pretty well. And obviously it's something that people would already have become accustomed to if they were going to become accustomed to it at all. Exactly. Yeah, I may well I may well do that. Yeah, that's what I was thinking is it's a it's a form that you see once and it's repeated. Yeah, it wouldn't take any more training and it would also extend if you happen to get to a year where there was more posts more threads than you could accommodate you could do the same. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm starting to I'm starting to have visions of a reusable user interface component. We'll see how that goes.