 Welcome back to Think Tech. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Community Matters and we're talking about the cutting edge on algae. Sometimes you can look at algae for a long time and never find anything that cuts. That's why there's a bit of humor, irony in the cutting edge on algae. It doesn't cut. It's more than just lipids for energy though. Back in the day, algae was a promising biofuel and Heidi Kuhnley was involved in developing it under Kuhnley agro systems in Minoa. She's a research scientist and I remember visiting her lab a number of times and being so impressed with what she was doing, apparently in the lab and outside in the field. So this is really an old home week here today. We talked to Heidi about what she's doing with algae, the cutting edge, not only an algae as a fuel but algae for so many other things. Science takes you wherever it wants. The natural world opens huge vistas of opportunity. That's what Heidi Kuhnley is about. So in one moment, we're going to talk to her some more. Energy 808, the cutting edge, except it goes beyond energy with Heidi Kuhnley. Welcome to the show, Heidi. Thank you for having us. Yeah, absolutely. Like old home week. Let me say that in the old days, I remember all the algae you were growing in your laboratory and squeezing the lipid oil out of them and making the lipid oil into arguably a fuel. And there was so much competition for green energy. This was a perfect example. And you were a leader in researching clean energy back in the old years, the early old years, I should say. That's right. And now we revisit with you when we find that it's indeed 20 years later. So let's spend a little time catching up, Heidi. What are you even doing? Well, yes, we were an algae strain supplier to all these upcoming innovative biofuels companies trying to produce algae from biological sources through growing algae rather than through fossil fuels. And that was a real drive to get clean, renewable oils back in the day. This was 2008. The US government provided millions of dollars to fund large companies and defense contractors. And some of that money trickled down to us to provide the strains that supported their efforts to make biofuels. But it was a long task. It's still in progress for some companies, but the cost of fuel, the barrel of oil cost, goes up and down. And when it's below like $70 a barrel, algae oils seems very expensive. When it's more than that, it starts making sense. So lots going on that pose challenges to getting algae biofuels, even though they work perfectly well on jet engines and so forth, all validated by our military. Economically, it was a no-go. And as an algae research company, we asked ourselves, well, what are we going to do? So we became algae experts in that time that you and I were talking, and we realized we have to do things very differently. If you're going to make any products from algae beyond what's out in the market already, these really expensive vitamin type algae products, you've got to do things differently and we're quite good at that thinking out of the box. So that's what we did, since we saw you last. We came up with a whole new scheme on how to grow algae and how to grow things better and cheaper and faster. This reminds me of a very early show we did on ThinkTech on the radio. We were talking about a computer software program, and we got a call from outside, a guy called, and he said, you're talking about computer software, but you haven't told us what electricity is. So could you please... You can't do software without electricity, right? And I turned to the guest and I said, this one's for you. So my question to you is, could you tell the people what algae is? Not only how it looks and feels, but what's the material in there? Yeah, what is algae? Well, algae are single cells. They're microbes. They're like bacteria or yeast single cells, but they happen to... A lot of them photosynthesize, so they grow with sunlight, and they use up CO2 and give out oxygen. So they're just like plants, but they're single cells and they're filled with all sorts of nutritious compounds, the oils that you could use for fuels, but you can also eat those oils, and algae have very, very healthy oils that you are getting in your diet today. If you're eating fish, you're eating algae oils because the fish are getting that in their diet. If you're eating any kind of dietary supplements with pigments in them, like astaxanthin, which is one of our specialties, that's coming from microalgae. If you need vitamins, minerals, protein, algae is chock-full of healthy, edible materials, and so as a single cell, as a single, as a plant, that's a single cell, it's just really healthy to eat algae in general, but the big deal isn't just expensive to grow enough of it. And how do you grow it? I remember Shell Oil was trying to get into algae in Kona, in the Nelha laboratory in Kona, and they had acres and acres of open algae ponds, and I remember the issue was preventing contamination. Yeah. The problem with algae is not so easy. Right. Well, actually, yeah, it depends what you're growing, but it can be quite economical if you're growing in these big open ponds, and especially if you're growing in seawater, and you have a right management techniques in place, you can produce crops, algae crops that give you different nutritional value or oil value, whatever you're looking for, but the problem is that we are running out of water. So fresh water, a lot of the good algae that we want in our diets are grown in fresh water or not high salt water like ocean water. How do you, we're running out of water, especially Kona side, and then how do you grow enough, if you have those ponds, it has acres, but you need hundreds, gazillion acres to grow enough to have an impact for certain things that we're interested in, which is for food purposes. And so those ponds, like you mentioned, then you saw over at Nelha, they're great, and they can, and there's excellent producers there, but they're for very, very specific high value markets, not for the products we're interested in. So can you change, select or change algae from one composition to another? Yeah. Can you do a Mendelian genetics on it? Can you do GMO genetics on it? Our stuff is all natural. We're targeting natural ingredients. Our stuff is non-GMO. It's not mutated either. We take natural variability that exists in algae and harness that, matching it up with our fermentation production technique, and I have some slides that I can show you about it. But that's the whole thing is taking, nature is filled with variability that you have to look for and understand it and work with it to benefit from it. But we also do breeding. I'm a plant breeder by training, and we do natural crosses of algae to highlight some of the characteristics that we're interested in, like protein, for example. So you take one kind of algae and put it into the other algae? It's all the same kind of algae. We're just crossing within the same species. They just have different traits that we like, and so we cross them together. It's a real skill. I mean, it's an art and a skill. So not a lot of people do that, but we do it when we need to. Most of our stuff, though, is just not like our astaxanthin is all natural. So then what you're telling me is that the essential operation of your laboratory is still the same. It's growing algae and checking out algae from a scientific point of view. What's different is how you use the algae. That's exactly right. And over the last few years, we filed and were issued patents that allow that's around the production technology, so growing algae in the dark, which kind of goes against what you think algae grow, but no, we found out if you grow them in the dark, they blossom and make all these compounds within a couple of days. So it's much more efficient. We use much less water, much less land. It's just like growing beer, like yeast and beer vats, but we're growing micro algae and beer vats, basically. And it's just five years to get there, but that's what we're doing now. Agriculture is so important to Hawaii. You're really part of that, I think. And I'm reminded that there's a whole industry in Singapore and elsewhere actually in the US mainland that does vertical agriculture. You need sunlight to do all this, so you could do vertical development of algae right here in Hawaii. Exactly. It's vertical farming. We just don't use sunlight. We use vinegar. We feed them vinegar instead of sunlight, but it is vertical farming, just like in Singapore, they do with their lettuce, but also it's precision farming. And we are getting into that in our fields here in Hawaii, like how you moderate how much water goes in, the nutrients and stuff. But we have complete software-controlled fertilization of our algae, so not one speck of nitrogen is wasted, and it also doesn't go out and there's nothing in our wastewater. So we have vertical farming combined with precision agriculture in this form of growing algae in tanks. Are you regulated by state agencies, by the State Department of Agriculture, or any state agency? Yeah, sure. If we import anything, anything biological is all done under permit. But what we're doing in our labs is all, I mean, it's all regulated. There's nothing unregulated. We grow, actually, we have a large collection of Hawaiian algae collected from my backyard. But also, our function really here in Hawaii is as a R&D company, and our partner production partners are overseas. So they're the ones doing the big scale-up, and we just show you can do it, and then they'll scale it up. Sure, it's like the shrimp. It's like the shrimp at HPU, you know, the, what do you call it, shrimp, the parent shrimp. And they send the shrimp over, and then people grow it in large quantities, but they only need, it's broodstock shrimp. That's right. We can develop the strains, and then we'll license out those strains. So as you mentioned, we're a microalgae products development company based here in Hawaii. So our, everything that we do is developed around our patented novel dark fermentation process for growing the microalgae. And that fermentation process enables production of valuable algae products at much lower costs and higher sustainability. And that's really referenced, sustainability is referencing our water use and our land use. The two products I want to tell you about is our lead product, which is Astaxanthin, and then our pipeline product, which is a vegan protein. And as I mentioned briefly, our current status is that we're in, in scale-up production with a partner overseas, and they're manufacturing test batches of our algae that are going into the field trials for a variety of different partners that we have. So we're at the Manoa Innovation Center, which is run by the University of Hawaii, which is a 10-minute walk from the main campus. You can see our small research team. We're just three researchers in the labs there. In the top right, you can see one of our fermentation tanks. And then in the middle, you can see a smaller fermentation tank that's filled with our algae that is bright red from all the Astaxanthin that it has produced. Our leadership is under the direction of Claude Kaplan. He's our CEO with a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology from the University of Cambridge. He's located in the UK. Myself, I'm a co-founder. My background is in plant breeding from Cornell University, and I'm the Chief Technology Officer. And then the other co-founder is Gordon Wallace. He's our Chief Administrative Officer and has a background in project management. We recently received investment just this year, a few months ago, received a major investment from Hatch Blue and from AquaSpark. AquaSpark is located in the Netherlands, and Hatch Blue is headquartered over in Nelha, and they're an aquaculture or sustainable foods company, an outfit investor. You talked about Cornell. Wasn't Cornell the place where this local guy, I want to say Japanese guy, went and discovered how to deal with the virus that was affecting a pya in Hawaii? Yeah, yeah, Dennis Gonsalves. Dennis Gonsalves, brilliant scientist now retired on the Big Island, and he was one of the initial researchers of pya ring spot virus resistance that was then picked up by Dr. Richard Manshart at the Manoa campus. So yeah, it's a small world. Okay, let's talk about Axis Anton. I've heard some of this from David Watermull who went into it for a business a few years ago and believes that with that, you can deal with inflammation in the human body. There's all kinds of benefits. Can you talk about what it really is and what it does and why we should care about it? Sure. So, I mean, Axis Anton, it's an antioxidant. It's also an inflammatory, and it's a big market. It's a billion-dollar market. Cardax is who you're referencing. There's another company here called Cyanotech on the Big Island. They're growing or producing Axis Anton as an antioxidant for dietary supplements, but there's a much bigger volume use of Axis Anton, which is in fish feed. So, Axis Anton is a molecule, a long pigment molecule that is fat soluble, and it goes into red fish and shrimp. So, any red fish and shrimp in nature that have those colors, they're eating Axis Anton through their natural diet. Is that like a salmon? Like the salmon. So, salmon is a big source for Axis Anton, and because we can't wild catch enough salmon to feed everybody, there's farmed salmon, and in that farmed salmon, they will add the Axis Anton compound to give that salmon color to the flesh. And I'll, a couple of slides from now, show you what it looks like if you have a salmon that's not fed this colorant. And what's really important is that the colorant that we have, so we have a natural Axis Anton product that's from Natural Algae, and that's required for any organic fish or shrimp and also for certain territories like Scotland and Ireland. They will only use natural Axis Anton, but unfortunately, the market is dominated by a synthetic colorant, since it's much cheaper than natural Axis Anton and it's produced in massive volumes, and that's what you need in aqua feeds is massive volumes. So, we wanted to change that. We wanted to get our natural product into the fish feed market. I can tell you, our product has been tested. It's worked well in salmon, in rainbow trout, and Vanime Shrimp works great. So, now that's what we're scaling up to do, is to get into the fish feed business with it. But there's these other applications that the human and pet supplements, they're both, they're really important to our health. It's like you said, it was anti-inflammatory. It's like, so if you measure your C-reactive protein, you can see the levels go down when you have a constant diet, constant Axis Amphin in your diet. Things like sports or athletes who want fast muscle recovery. Axis Amphin has been proven in numerous scientific studies to benefit the muscle recovery. It's great for your eye health. It's great for our cognitive health. Wow. Can I go buy a bottle of it or do I have to take any food? Yeah, you can get it. You can buy the Hawaiian product here at Longs, at Long CVS. You can find it on the internet. There's great products from Iceland, from Sweden, from France. You can buy different products. We want to make it a lot cheaper though. So, ours isn't on the market yet for dietary supplements for food use, but when it will be, we can produce it a lot cheaper. So, that's what we're heading to as a company. Okay, I have some more definitional things I'd like to ask you about. Let's see. Hamotu, Hamotu Caucus. Hamotu Caucus is blood and round. It's a Latin basis for round cells that look like blood red when they're filled with astaxanthin. That's where that name came from. That's the species name for this algae which is found in Hawaii. It's found in many different continents. You can go to your bird bath and look for it. That is what is producing and is allowed. That's been approved by the FDA for use as supplement and in food. It's allowed in Singapore. It's allowed in Europe. It's allowed in Japan, and allowed in Canada, and fish feed, and human food. So, that's all produced from Hamotu Caucus pluvialis, which is the algae we're growing. Hamotu Caucus. Okay, I can pronounce it. Yeah. And on my list of questions is rainbow trout. Rainbow trout is, I suppose, like Atlantic salmon in the sense that there is algae is in there and it makes it red. Is rainbow trout red? Yeah. I haven't had enough rainbow trout in my life. It's delicious, and the row is one of the best rows if you're into that for New Year's Eve parties. Sushi. Sounds like sushi. Okay, anti-aging is on my list too. Now, we talked about anti-inflammatory, but that leads to anti-aging, right? Can you talk about how that works? Yeah, and I'm not a human physiologist or doctor, so I'm not the best person to describe it, but because it's such a strong, it's one of the strongest antioxidants, and we know that fighting oxidative stress in ourselves is critically important to health. And that's what the astaxanthin molecule, by its chemical nature, it's a really strong, it can fight those free radicals, free radicals of those stress oxygen molecules. It will absorb those and prevent them from doing damage to your metabolism. And that's why you find it in skin care products. Astaxanthin is a big deal in skin care, rather, because even in the cells of your skin, it can provide those protective effects. And yeah, there's a slide up here on the skin care. We proved this with our astaxanthin product that we took our extract as a trademark name called astafusion because it's a fusion or cocktail mix of astaxanthin plus other pigments like betacarotine and lutein. That was tested in skin systems in Japan, Tokyo University. And you can look at the paper that's referenced here from it. It's a 2021 paper in the Journal of Oleo Science. They showed that by adding astaxanthin to the skin cells, you could restore the collagen and elastin fibers that make up our skin matrix. That's what keeps us puffy and non-wrinkled, that matrix. I wouldn't know about that anymore. As you can call it anti-wrinkling because it prevents the collapse of your skin. And that is caused by something very specific that what we're talking about is caused by carbon-related proteins that form if they're in sunlight or oxidative stress. I know it's getting a little complicated. I know I want this. I want this. We always talk the language of science. This is the way we show people just exactly how much of a scientist you are. And it's important because you can, in the skin care world, people make claims, but you need to have science that backs it up. And so you can do, you'll do these studies. I mean, these are studies that done, they're still skin studies. They're not whole skin studies. But if you, as a consumer, you use it and then you can see for yourself how it performs. I mean, it comes, everybody's skin is different. But based on the science studies, it has this great potential. And so we have, we're really excited about our astrophusion, which is going to be launching in a U.S. brand this year. So if you talk to me, you're from now, I can tell you more about it. Well, skin is important. It's important in burn cases. It's important in war wounds. I remember there was a company, I don't know if it still exists in Hawaii that had a product that would replace skin and in a case of a burn or a war wound. And I'm wondering if the exosantin somehow expedites that or participates in the redevelopment of skin. Yeah, that's interesting. I have to look into that more. But they also, you know, they're using like fish scraps. I know in Norway, they're doing this using fish scraps also for wound healing. I don't remember the details of it. Maybe there's a connection. Okay, I have more words for you then. Supercritical CO2 purification. I'm afraid at dinner, my wife and I do not discuss that very often. I wonder if you could help us with that. Well, if you're known, well, cannabis is extracted by that method. It's a way of purifying an oil without using any chemical solvents. They use CO2. It's a high temperature, high pressure CO2 is used to extract your bioactive compounds. So they use it in cannabis, they use it for flavors and fragrance going into our foods. But I also use it for astaxanthin to get this really high purity of a compound because they're putting it into dietary supplements. This relates to the manufacturer or to the research or both. So that's the product that you buy at the store is extracted by that technology. So it relates to what we call downstream processing to make a consumer product is that extraction. But I should point out that a novelty or a difference with our material is that our material is a very soft algae that you can eat the whole algae. The material that is sold in longs right now, it all comes from a very hard matacacas algae. So it's as hard as a macadamia shell. If you know those, they're super hard. You got to crack them open to extract them. Our stuff is super soft. You can eat it, it has great digestibility. You don't even need to extract it. You can eat it directly. So that's what we're trying to shift is adding this. Why add the cost of extraction when you can eat the whole thing in a in a gummy, for example. This opens the imagination to the possibility that in the future with these new techniques of growing, extracting, what have you, this will be algae will be a food product that sustains people when there may not be sufficient other food. I mean, do you see this as becoming a world staple, particularly in countries that don't have a lot of food? Oh, absolutely. And so now we're shifting. We're shifting from, as does Anthony, as a specific thing to algae for nutritional value. So not for like antioxidant value, but for nutrition. I ask myself, what's my purpose in life? And I think one of my purposes is trying to get algae, nutritional algae out there in large volumes and at low cost. So we can continue feeding the world. I mean, we're running out of protein to feed the world. We need to grow. We need additional sources of protein to feed to feed our growing population hot. And even here in Hawaii, where we, you know, we don't want to import beef and so forth. We need to be algae protein. So that's my that's what we're trying to do. And so we have our patent, our issued patent allows us to produce that algae protein from a different species. That's also found in Hawaii. And the question is, so how do you do that? But we want to deploy it globally, of course, if we can make it work in Hawaii, especially as we're running out of water for farming. How do we get that algae protein into our diets? We have a long term plan for that. But there's a lot of questions. You got to want to eat it. You got to want to get the chefs to work with it and show that we can eat it. It's part of our Hawaiian Island history, eating algae is nothing new. But making for you and me to shift over to it, it requires, it will require a lot of work with the, you know, the everybody here who's involved in the agriculture and the food scene and the consumers and making sure that it is sustainable and checks all those boxes for our future. So it's, I think it's one of the most important things we can do. If you go to like slide, let me just show you a couple of slides, like if you go to slide 13 about our, but thank you. This is showing about today's production of protein that uses up so much water and land at levels that are threatening our humanity, because we don't have that water and land anymore. So if you compare beef protein, a ton of beef protein and a ton of soy protein with a ton of our algae protein, those, I listed how much water is used for each of those. We use only a fraction of the water and land footprints to make a ton of protein compared to soy protein or to beef protein. And we want to fix that. That's our mission. So if you go to the next slide, well, how do you do that? If you go into our dark fermentation within, we have an extremely fast process that takes a flask, just a few flasks of algae, like you see in the photograph, and we can make a ton of product from that in just two weeks, because it grows like a microbe. Algae grows like a microbe in our, with our technology. That's what we want to implement. And then, but does it taste good? Can you put into food? Yes, you can. So we've been doing, we've been making all sorts of food formulations, showing that you can do nutritious protein enrichment in everyday foods by adding this in. You may not want to eat a hundred percent algae burger, because that's not what you're used to. But if you can, if we can combine it with other compounds that you're commonly eating, like in a pancake mix, we can double the protein content in that pancake very easily by adding our algae. And it makes it look really cool, because we have this lime green color along with some neutral colors. And it tastes like wheat grass. When you mix it into this recipe, you don't even taste it. But if you eat it straight, it tastes like wheat grass. And it's not fishy like spirulina. The world's already eating microalgae. Spirulina is, it's very important in the diets in certain African countries. Even Mexico City was surrounded by huge spirulina, natural spirulina ponds. So this is like a spirulina, but it tastes better. It has a different protein profile, highest higher digestibility. So it's in a way, so it's a different product offering that we think, because we can grow it in fermentation, it doesn't need ponds, that we can be producing it on very landlocked areas, like Singapore, like Hawaii in the future. That's our goal is to get there. Wow. Is this your main focus these days? No, this is still our pipeline product, as does Athens, our main focus. But we're having the discussions, the background discussions with everybody who we need to understand, does it have a place in Hawaii, or does it have a place in Singapore? Does it have a place in Ireland? Where can we show, best demonstrate that this algae protein has a place in our future to keep in the light of the climate change and so forth? That's very exciting. And I'm looking at it as scalable. My God, the human race needs this. This could be what helps even save the human race going forward. And we're having it right here in Hawaii. So what I take from this is that if you can put a color on it that's appealing, if you can put a taste on it that's appealing, maybe a texture, some kind. And if you can mix it in with something that is appealing in general, like in a hamburger, and all of a sudden it's very appealing food and people will eat it. And if you can grow it vertically without using too much water, you can do this in Hawaii. Hawaii can be, for the first time in a long time, a major manufacturing, agricultural manufacturing center. And we can have the eWord, a sensor export. The eWord, we can export algae food products. Wouldn't that be something? Do you think about that, Heidi? Yeah, we do. And it is a long haul. There's a lot of people that we need to talk to to make sure it is the right, if we're actually just talking about it as a protein source for Hawaii, we need to be talking to the right people to to fill that out. But when you say the right people, do you mean the capital interests or scientists? No, I mean Hawaiian practitioners. I mean people who understand how we've used limo in the past, how we best make it, best work with it. Microbes have been understood for hundreds of years as being really important to how we do farming here. But because we're doing it in fermentation tanks, we're using fermentation is also very old technology. But we're combining these different elements of putting algae into fermentation tanks to make a food, is that appropriate? So we need to understand that and talk to university professors and just work it through the system as we work through the nutritional side of it and food formulation side of it to show, well, look, if it is the right thing, right solution for our future along with other protein sources, here's how you might want to use it. So we're looking at all angles. Again, that's kind of my mission and in life now, but as a company, it's in our pipeline as we have these discussions and getting vast as Anthony out to the forefront. I mean, we're small companies focus right now. So you know, one thing I remember is that there are other research scientists working on algae in various places in the world. And I don't know if there you've seen them as competition or as colleagues in this scientific field. But can they, do they, will they be part of some sort of global movement to establish ideal strains of algae as food product? Do you have any context right now? Do you have any collaborations right now? Absolutely. Oh, yeah. We're collaborating with people who want to get these products out. You have to understand these if the major food companies, even the major, but so both for electrical protein and for I will ask to Santhan, we're talking to global players, they all have a mandate for a sustainability mandate is called ESG, so environmental social governance mandates. They take those very seriously and they have, they're going to have to shift their raw materials that they're using in their foods to keep all of us alive. So that sustainability factor is critically important. And we've, we're talking to as many people as we can saying, okay, look what we can do. And what can, and working with you, we can do this even faster and better to get this before, before our climate change is really beyond control. I mean, so we're talking about a totally self sustaining production process for something that I mean, again, it's one solution is not the solution, but we're, and yeah, we don't like to think about this competition either. We're, we're talking, we're willing partners who have to make their, their mandates for ESG and let's, let's, let's all work together, not let's not compete. You know, I think of the Colorado River and the loss of water and the awful effects of climate change in California, even as we speak, where some places are drought of the places of flood, all the, you know, discombobulation of the climate. I say to myself, there isn't a lot of time. You mentioned that you have to do this, whatever it is, before we get, you know, to correct my climate change. So what horizon do you see here? You've got to do it. I want you to do it. We all want you to do it, Heidi. And we want, we want it to happen here in Hawaii. But what's the, what's the horizon that you have in your mind when you think of that? So for us, because we're a small company, partnerships are critical and it's really becomes the horizon, the timeline of those partnerships for, for getting the products out there, those big companies. So we, we're doing our part. Five years, 10 years. Well, okay, for Astaxanthin this year, so our product will be for sale this year. So we can say that, which is a protein product. It's because there's insect proteins, there's all sorts of proteins. Alternative proteins is huge. We're one player. A lot of that, it sounds great, but it does come down to economics and also to the actual protein that we're, we're making. Do we have something special? We think we do. We have patents around it and patent pending around it. How do you, how do you get that out there? That's, we're, we're working on that, Jay. We're trying, we're trying to understand how can we have this tiny little company in the middle of the Pacific have a global impact through, through alternative protein? That's for a lot more discussions. Heidi, you can. I know you can. We will all be so happy. I mean, the problem we talk about it all the time is, you know, there's not enough agriculture to feed the people of Hawaii in a distressed situation, in extreme weather, for example, if the supply line is disrupted, who knows what, 90% of our food comes from the mainland. We have really got to figure this out. If we could do it here, wow. Yeah. I mean, if there's an appetite for it and a will, you know, with $24 million, we can build a very large production plant that can provide, you know, a huge number of, of meals a day protein content for meals a day for Hawaii. That, that's what, that's my dream is to, is to refine that financing, build up these big beer vats and, and do that production here. Can we revisit with you in a few months and check status? Yeah. Check the status of the eggs with Anton and I can never pronounce it right. No, that's perfect. Asked as Anton. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Would love to. And check the status of the protein food. All of that would, as a fish and all that, we would, it would be delighted to follow you and to see where all this goes. This is so, I'm sure you will have to agree, is so promising. Well, thank you. Promising for Hawaii. We think it is. And we've been doing it for more than 20 years and, and it's public service. It isn't business as much as a public firm. Thank you. Thank you, Heidi. Heidi, could we, could we aggregate, aggregate systems in Manoa, Hawaii? So nice to talk to you and catch up. Nice to talk to you. Aloha. Aloha. Mahalo.