 Josh. Hey, Don. Did you color your hair? It is. It's purple. Cool. So what happens when you get bored during a pandemic? I'm actually just one of the things is one of the reasons I had to avoid Picon in 2018 was I promised if I went, I was going to color my hair. My hair is super dry. So I know if I colored it, I would end up having to cut it short afterwards because it would be too dry and brittle. Yeah, I got mine. Well, the first. I go to a professional and she, she does most of it. And then I just sort of touch it up. Right. Cause it doesn't stay bright for that long. I've been going for ages to get like the great discovered out. Yeah. Yeah. But I usually just got normal hair color, you know, like. Brown same color as my regular hair. Yeah. This is the first time I've done anything. Bright. Unnatural. I like it. Unfortunately on. On video, it mostly looks black. It does. Yeah. That's a thing. Like in real life, it's actually quite bright. But. But video doesn't do purple, I guess. Not very well. Well, it also depends on I've, you know, I've won these lights and has different colors. So I think I'm going to use this one. If I use this one, it looks kind of red purple. I use this one. My hair looks completely blue. Wow. It's time that we need to pester the existing. K native steering committee. Yeah. Yeah, we need to cause April said that she was having some conversations with people, but they were out on holiday. Yeah, actually. If she's not eligible to be an election officer, she's not eligible to be an election officer. And, um, And of course, Bob killin works for Google now. So if they want somebody from Google. Hmm. Because he ran the election process. What was it last year? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, But yeah, it would be good to know and be good to know what they expect in terms of a schedule because we're already past the original schedule I proposed. Yeah. And I'm also not all that clear on how many people are being elected. So, No, it's not that clear because of the, the transition stuff isn't. I don't know. It seems to contradict the other stuff just a little bit. It didn't get updated after they eliminated the end user positions. Yeah. So. Which I'm still sad about, but. The public steering committee meeting we can drop into. Um, answers to our questions live. Yeah, but not for like a week. We can have. Um, I don't know actually. Because right, they were supposed to make more of their meetings public. After the charter change. But there wasn't a specific schedule attached to that. And it really is true that like half of the. K native principles took the week off. Last week. Yeah. Um, because I've been trying to get some stuff done. Internally for promoting K native. And, you know, people just did not start returning my messages until yesterday. So. Um, are we not getting anybody else. Amy said, based on the agenda, it didn't look like she needed to be here. No. If she needs, if we need her. Yep. She didn't. I guess when we're not. Um, arguing about steering committees, people are not really interested. And I'm like. I don't care. Steering committees are boring. And if they're not boring, you're doing something wrong. Yeah. Uh, so. Um, because I only had a couple of things. Um, mostly, and honestly, one of them should have been on the general meeting last week, except we didn't have a general meeting because something went weird with the calendar for a bunch of us. Um, uh, the, um, which is we need to start preparing for the session for, uh, uh, Kubcon. Mm hmm. Yeah. Because there's this time of recording done by the 22nd. I think something like that. Yeah. So kind of need to have an outline and stuff. Yeah. And decide who's recording what. And obviously we need some of the people from. We need to at least like Carolyn there as well. Um, the, um, for the contributor growth portions of things. Um, the, um, I mean, what I was seeing was about 10 minutes going over. You know, here's your. Project checklist at the different levels of maturity. You know, here's the things that you're expected to have or should have. Um, and then open it up to the Q and A where we'll actually find out who's participating and help them through specific things that they need to have. How much time do we think we want to devote to the presentation part of it? I was suggesting 10 minutes. Okay. Um, I'm going to, um, I'm going to, um, which is about enough time to go over our sort of tree of things that projects should have. The, um, if you can think of a way to make that. Slightly more engaging. Then a laundry list. I've been trying to come up with one. It's hard to make paperwork engaging, Josh. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. The, um, in real project time, if the paperwork is super engaging, then it's because there's a problem. So, um, so, um, the, um, I'm obviously the most engaging thing would be to take an existing project that has a relatively incomplete paperwork profile and go over what's there and not there. The problem is that that timing for that is impossible. Right. We would have to find such a project now and count on. And count on them. Uh, being incomplete for long enough for us to, um, record the video. Uh, yeah. The, um, so like say, Hey, you know, you know, they have a contributing that MD thing here, but it doesn't actually tell you how to contribute. Um, or, you know, and they're missing anything about who their current reviewers, you know, who their current owners are, you know, the, um, so, but I was basically thinking for the recording, we'd split it up into segments for each of us. I don't have. I'm not prepared to set up the technology to actually record us. Well, we could record us as sort of a panel. If we were to do it via, um, conference call. Stuff like we recorded via zoom. Yeah. Um, the, um, I think that's probably a fine option. I mean, it's just, it's just 10 minutes. Um, I don't know, I don't know if we could record it. I think, I think recording it via zoom is probably. Probably the easiest way. It was one of us could share the screen and we could each have, I don't know, a couple of slides or something. However, at the end of my day, after a day full of meetings, I'm not sure how much creativity I have to offer this, uh, finding something. Yeah. Engaging solution. Yeah. Well, I think we could do that. Um, the, um, so that we can, you know, go straight to helping people with the actual problems they have. Yeah. The, so, uh, Okay. So we'll want to. So we need to actually. We need to create an outline. We need to. I mean, one of the reasons why I like the idea of. Having a project. To look at, if we could find one. Um, that would be, um, That it would allow us to do something that wasn't just slides. Yeah. Like possibly not do slides at all, except the. You know, name of the session slide. Because we actually could go back and forth between. You know, a checklist document and. Um, a, um, a checklist document and a, um, And looking at a project. And that's going to be more engaging than looking at a bunch of slides. Yeah. The, um, plus it's stuff that people can refer to later. Uh, Yeah, I like that idea. Okay. That does mean that. We need to finish with contributor growth, preparing a sort of master checklist document, document for. The various levels of maturity. You know, saying, Hey, this is what. These are the things you're expected to have at this level of maturity. And these are the things that are good to have, regardless of whether or not they're required. Um, the, um, So, um, It was working on that. Nobody has been. So we need to start it. Yeah. Okay. So we kind of have that with our content. Our list of content that's required. Um, the, um, You know, and so it would just be converting parts of that. To a checklist. The, um, And then getting, uh, Contrib growth to. Make sure that all of their stuff is in there. The problem is just time between now and the 22nd. Cause that's. Seven business away and all things open smack in the middle of it. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, not speaking at all things open. The bigger problem for me is that. I'm also responsible for a lot of red hats commercial. Kubecon stuff. The, um, so. Yeah, I honestly thought I would have more time to work on this in September. Mostly cause I didn't think I'd be spending most of my September. So, um, So, um, Um, Maybe we should just start that master checklist doc. Google doc right now. Throw it in the minutes. And that way we can both. Add to it. And maybe, um, If you want to ping. Uh, Caroline. Add some stuff to it. Cause if we get it started and then we can all just add bits and pieces to that. Maybe that maybe it'll go faster. Cause I might have some time between meetings tomorrow. I'll put it on my to-do list. So are you creating that? Or are you waiting for me to create that? I'm creating it. Okay. Just checking. We're not both staring at each other waiting for the other one to do something. Yep. Okay. There's the link. Blank right now. Obviously. Good. Good to have regardless be above entering. Sandbox. Like the things that you should have anyways. And then. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's actually a requirement for entering sandbox. I was thinking good to have regardless of stuff that every project needs. Oh, even if they're not going to join the CNCF. Yeah. The, um, It's going to be repetitive. A lot of things that are required. I wonder if you should just get rid of that. They, what I was thinking about good to have regardless. Um, is stuff that's not actually a requirement. Um, and some projects don't necessarily have. Um, like. So maybe, maybe like nice to have. Additions. And if that's the case, I'll put it back at the bottom. Additionally. I can be worth that later. Yep. Okay. Yep. Cool. I made my proposal. Um, That. The CNCF should consider having. A joint code of conduct committee for all of the smaller projects. Yeah. Crickets. They're willing to spend, I don't know how many meetings arguing about steering committees. Yeah. But. You know, Code of conduct enforcement. That's something we really need to, because lots of people aren't good. I could have conduct enforcement. And if we have. Well, who are like spot on trained. Yeah. Well, and right now, the setup is if, you know, if you're not Kubernetes or I think helm. Code of conduct enforcement is carried out by Angela. At the Linux foundation. Yeah. And if Angela's on vacation. Yep. The, um, not that Angela really takes vacations, but I don't think we should reinforce that. Yeah. Also, you know, I haven't said this to, you know, the CNCF folks, but there's also the issue that if the code of conduct complaint is against a member of the Linux foundation event staff. That's going to be a huge conflict of interest for Angela. Yeah. So, um, Okay. Let's look at our content checklist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's look at our content checklist. I just sent this to. Just tagged Caroline and a. Slack message with the link. Yeah. So it's actually only three things required. Of. Sandbox, which I almost wonder if good to have is actually per level because. Um, Because even though having a governance that MD is not actually required until incubation. It gets discussed. Um, Well, there's something that's actually currently nobody's responsibility. Oh, conformance. I just realized. Yeah. And I realized that is an expectation of the CNCF and it kind of. I mean, we, isn't there a conformance working group for CNCF? There was. I'm actually going to put those three things under good to have. Nice to have. In general. Yeah. I think that's a good point. Because those actually are good examples of things that could be introduced at any stage. Are not tied to specific requirements, except in a loose sense. Yeah. I kind of think the CIA best practices probably requires. Having the security. Report handling. But I haven't delved into it. I think you actually have to have the adopters at the incubating stage. Yeah. Okay. I'll move that from requirements to good to have. So it's actually kind of weird because at the incubating stage. It says that you'll have to document that it's used by at least three independent end users. Which is. The adopters. Yeah. So. It's weird that those two things are phrased entirely different ways, even though the same thing. Yeah. But it's interesting because for, for graduating, it doesn't give any number. Of adopters. No. Well, the presumption is that you'll got the three in order to get to incubating. Yeah. And that three is enough. No, there's no increased number. Yeah. So. The, I guess the one difference is that technically. The list of end users could be. Less public at the incubating stage. That is, it could be a document you furnish only. To the CNCF. Six and not something you have published in your project. Yeah. Although I've never actually seen that. Cause I mean, at least haven't gone through it with projects. We're always saying, can we publicly reference you? Because. Yeah. CNCF committees have publicly recorded meetings. So. Nothing's actually private. It's just. Annoying to find. Yeah. And the clear versioning scheme kind of implies the existence of a defined release process. Yeah, exactly. Although you could. Get around that. But obviously having a defined release process is the better way to go there. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you're not. What version is this is not a matter of opinion anymore. Yeah. Although. It's not really true. So. Having, having worked on both firefox and postgres. You can have a very defined release process and version numbers can still be a matter of opinion. I'm still not sure whether I should be. Proud or ashamed. Of. Of having converted firefox to whole integers for version numbers. It just feels weird to be getting like version 103 of firefox. And then again, the versioning number scheme we had before then was truly nightmarish. It was like 3.5.33. 0.7. Dash. Alpha B. And that would be like a release version. I did not the way that I actually got people to switch versioning numbers. Was that. I merged. A page long. Function written in pearl. To interpret the version numbers. And the folks at Mozilla hated pearl. And I was like, okay, well try rewriting this in python. I tried it was. This is one of the areas where pearl really shines. The python version was four times as long. And they changed the version numbers rather. So. So. I think that's the. I think that's the way it is. Pearl. Yeah. Anything to avoid some pearl. You know, whatever works. I was reading the civs code and was surprised to find I could still read pearl. Yeah, I wouldn't be able to at this point. I mean, I wrote some Pearl back in the nineties. And that's. I don't remember any of it. I wrote whole applications and pearl five. So. I don't know, being able to write your own pearl and being good enough to read other people's pearl are two completely different things. Depends on who the writer is. And it does help that the civs code came out of academia. And therefore it's actually written to be read. Reviewed by faculty who might not actually be programmers. Yeah. And as a result. Of course. So. A lot of things that could have been rolled up into Pearl one liners were not, which makes it much easier to read. The. So, which is good because the vote counting algorithms are. Not obvious. Okay. Well, I feel like we've got a pretty good start. Yeah. Don't add anything to it. We can keep it to a page. Yep. We'll see what Carolyn says if she has anything to add to it. But I think this is a really good start. Okay. Yeah. And I think if we had all of that, we would have stuff for people and then they could start pitching questions of, Hey, I'm pitching my project to sandbox. Do I need to X. Or I need X and what does that look like? Yeah. So. And then we're going to ask everybody to look around and see if they know a project that is. Relatively incomplete that we could. Take a look at before it gets altered. Yeah. Do we want to put this in the, in the GitHub repo? Yes. Okay. But. But let's finish it out on, on docs. So that we can collaboratively edit it. And then yes, no, we definitely want it in the GitHub repo. As a document that people can download. As a matter of fact, I think that some mature version of this should eventually go into the templates. Yeah. Since it is a checklist for projects. Yeah. The other thing I think we should do before we publish it on GitHub is maybe include. Links to good examples of things. So do we have a governance MD? That's a good example of. Something. Yeah. Well, I mean, actually eventually we want to have, you know, a thing possibly before we give the actual talk. Is both links to examples. And links to any of the documentation we have so far published around these things. Yeah. Yeah. To the leadership selection doc here. Right. Yep. Cool. So what are, what are next steps? I think we can rely on just the, the meetings that we have to finish this because we just don't have enough time. Yeah. Should we try to set something up for, for later this week. For the three of us to chat so we can pull Carolyn into it. Yeah. Yeah, I think we better. I'm on PTO on Friday. Oh, so am I actually. So not Friday. I could do. How early do you start? What's your typical start? I usually eight AM Pacific. Okay. Because I could do. And the problem is that like, if I started seven, I'm, I'm, I'm honestly an evening person. So I can attend a meeting at seven, but I tend to be not very. Contributor. Yep. Nope, that's cool. Okay. If you could work with. Carolyn, because this is. I'm pretty much going to be done at this point, but I could do, I could do Wednesday. After nine AM Pacific. Okay. Preference for earlier. And I could do. I could do. Thursday at. 1030. I could do Wednesday. I could do Wednesday. I could do Wednesday. I could do Wednesday. I could do Wednesday. So if you could find a time that works for both you and Carolyn, and maybe just like. Drop a meeting on the calendars. That would be. That would be cool. Okay. Cool. Is there anything else we need to. Talk about. No. No. As usual, we have enough work to do that. We don't actually need to talk about it. Yeah, totally. Agreed. Okay. I'm just going to go ahead and figure out. How to make that work in a. Talking record us format. Okay. Okay. Sounds good. Great talking to you. Take care.