 under the heading the rubric of the Council of Europe at a crossroads which is part of the IIEA's Global Europe project supported by the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin. So we're joined today by a panel consisting of Bjorn Berger here to my right, the Deputy Secretary General of the Council of Europe, Senator Fiona O'Loughlin from the Irish Delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly will be with us shortly, and Professor Ifa Nolan from the University of Nottingham, I will introduce our three panelists in a moment. Before turning to the panel and that discussion under that heading, I'd like to call on Ragnar Anquist, who is the Director in the Department of Foreign Affairs of the Council of Europe section, and he's going to say a few words on the occasion, the happy occasion perhaps for him and for the team of the coming termination of the Irish chairmanship of the Committee of Ministers, which occurs in three or four days time. Ragnar, the floor is yours for a few minutes. Thank you, thank you Peter. Termination is probably not the term we'd use more of a happy handover to our Icelandic friends, but I appreciate it very much. Well Deputy Secretary General Berger, Senator O'Loughlin will be here in a moment, as you said, and Professor Nolan, it's a real pleasure for me to be here at the IAEA in person and amongst many good friends. I know that Tony Connolly was here a little earlier this afternoon and no doubt will have been speaking about the UK and its special relationships, but our department is privileged to enjoy many special relationships too, and one of them is with the IAEA and reflected in the fact that so many brilliant colleagues like Peter, Barry and others here, Colin indeed, offer their expertise in Europe House, and in so doing continue to make, I know, very valuable contributions to Irish foreign policy. It's also reflected in the fact that a number of young diplomats who joined our departments first gained experience here in Georgia Street, and that includes Stephen Frayn, my own colleague who organized today's event, and just to say thanks to Stephen who's been very hardworking over the last six months on our Council of Your Presidency team. Peter, I know you led our permanent representation to the Council between 2011 and 2016, which was a period in which Strasburg faced very exceptional challenges and took exceptional decisions, not least in suspending Russia from the Parliamentary Assembly in the wake of the invasion of Crimea, but the circumstances confronting the Council of Europe today are of a different order of magnitude. Following the invasion of Ukraine in February and Russia's expulsion from the organization in March, the Council, as the title of this event suggests, stands at something of a crossroads, and I think never genuinely in our lifetimes have the threats to democracy, human rights and rule of law on this continent being so pronounced. In our minister's words, never have we needed what we've turned the conscience of Europe more. So as Presidency of the Committee of Ministers these past six months, Ireland has maintained that our response to the poly crises, as we've heard them described, should be rooted in first principles, what we've called founding freedoms, and as we chart our path that we should take as our guiding compass, the European Convention on Human Rights and the Court which enforces it, and which, as of this week, is led by a very brilliant Irish Justice, Schaefer O'Leary. In the here and now, as Presidency, our first priority has been to ensure Strasbourg's expertise has been channeled as effectively as possible in support of Ukraine and our people. But looking to the longer term, we've also initiated a number of strategic reflections which we hope will lead to renewal, not just in Strasbourg, but across our continent. Across our six month Presidency term, Ireland has convened over 60 conferences, seminars and events such as this. In the last month alone, we've gathered justice ministries from across Europe to agree a new Dublin Declaration on Countering Violence Against Women. We've established a new framework in Strasbourg to support the Atlanta Tsai Niskaya, a dear friend of Ireland too, and other advocates for democracy in Belarus. We've led the committee of ministers in urging a comprehensive international legal response to Russia's crime of aggression against Ukraine. And tomorrow in Dublin Castle, where Bjorn spoke very eloquently this morning, we'll sign another Dublin Declaration, doubling down on Dublin, and this time on global education, a foundation for the democratic and civil renewal we've placed at the heart of our Presidency. So we've done a lot, but much, much more is needed. And our view is that within the Council of Europe, much more is possible. It's to that end that as Chair of the Committee of Ministers, Simon Coveney has led calls for the heads of governments of the Council's 46 member states to convene for what would be only the fourth time in the institution's 73 year history to reaffirm the importance of the rule of law to recommit the human rights enshrined in our convention and to counter rising autocracy across the continent by reinvesting in democracy. And while we couldn't convene as so much in our Presidency term, and I promise we tried, I hope that very soon, before our Presidency term ends next week, we will secure agreement allowing one under the incoming Icelandic Presidency, such that next year Reykjavík, which is home of the Al thing, the world's oldest parliament, might see Europeans' rights reaffirmed and Europe's democracies reinvigorated. The substance of that so much has already been set through the work of Irish women. And if Maeve were here, she'd be asked saying, what isn't that true of? Between June and October, our President, former President Mary Robinson led an independent high level reflection group on the future of the Council of Europe, while Senator O'Loughlin will soon complete a similar review on behalf of the Council's Parliamentary Assembly. And taken together, we believe those reports will present a blueprint for institutional renewal that's predicated above all upon political will. Because as President Robinson observed, and after seven or eight months working in the Council of Europe, this holds true for me, what the Committee of Ministers needs more than anything else is more ministers. It's, as Peter will attest, very often ministers' representatives who meet Mr. Asbert. So as well as recommitting to founding freedoms, a summit presents an opportunity to advance new rights, a point which President Higgins underscored in his own recent address to the Parliamentary Assembly in Strasbourg. And that's one of many reasons I'm looking forward to hearing from Professor Ethan O'Loughlin. As Vice-Chair of the European Committee on Social Rights, her leadership has helped put environmental rights very much on the Strasbourg map. And ahead of COP next week, we're all conscious how the rights we prioritise today will shape the future of our continent. In closing, to reference that Ireland was a founding member of the Council of Europe. And these past months, we've been proud custodians of what it stands for. Peter, I know you joined the Department in the year after Ireland joined the EU. So you know well the role, I won't say, you're obviously five or six at that time, like, know well the role, a prodigy, the Council membership played for our young state as a bridge from relative isolation to European integration. In important ways, the Treaty of London 1949 marked a new chapter in Ireland's European story. And as we face into a new period of enlargement, it's time to consider what role the Council should now play in supporting Ukraine, Moldova and other states aspiring to EU membership. And also, I think following the inaugural meeting of the new European political community in Prague last month to reflect on how the continent's original political community in Strasbourg can be renewed. So on these and other uncomplicated questions, I look forward to hearing the panel's reflections this evening. And thank you all for joining us. Peter, over to you. Just the housekeeping first. We will have our discussion with the panelists. After that, we will have a discussion both here and online. You can join us here obviously by raising your hand. Questions can be submitted online using the Q&A facility there. And in fact, those who are online may submit their questions in the course of the discussion we've come to them as they as they accumulate. And you can also join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at IIEA. And both our panel discussion and the Q&A will be on the right corner. Excuse me. So our panelists, Bjorn Bayerge knows the Council of Europe inside out. He was he was there when I served in Strasbourg as the chef to cabinet to the two term Secretary General from Norway from England. And he subsequently served as the Secretary to the Committee of Ministers currently. He's the Deputy Secretary General of the Council since March 2021. And in that remit, he covers many of the areas of work of the COE very closely, including particularly advising on and advising on the implementation of the Secretary General's reform agenda, the shaping of the program and budget, and generally ensuring that the organization's activities have maximum impact in advancing democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. And Senator Fiona O'Loughlin from Kildare, the member as the name implies from Shannon Aaron, Deputy Leader of Vienna Foyle in that body. He's the chair of the Aractus Women's Caucus and of the All Party Committee on Dementia. Senator O'Loughlin, for the purposes of today's discussion is head of the Irish delegation to the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, and currently rapporteur for that body on the question of holding the Ford Summit, which right now has alluded to. And she's also, I should say, a vice president of the Aldi Group in the Council of Europe framework. Professor Eva Nolan is a professor of International Human Rights Law and co-director of the Human Rights Law Center at the University of Nottingham. Her professional experience in human rights and constitutional law straddles the legal policy practitioner and academic fields. She's vice president of the Council of Europe's European Committee on Social Rights, looking after the social charter of the Council of Europe. She has acted as an expert advisor to a range of international and national entities working in human rights issues, including the Council of Europe, number of UN treaty bodies, number of UN special procedures, and the World Bank. She's an academic expert member at the Daughty Street Chamber. So Ragnar has pretty much set the general scene for the discussion with the panel as the Irish chairmanship, the very full Irish chairmanship with events both in Ireland in Strasbourg and indeed further field coming to an end within the coming week. I think it's probably natural to take the report of the high level group under the chairmanship of Mary Robinson as the best starting point for the discussion on the Council of Europe being at a crossroads. It's certainly the commissioning of the report may have been precipitated by the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. But I think the need for such a look at the Council, its functioning, its place in European political architecture and landscape was becoming clear even before that. And the report therefore is was and is very timely. So Bjorn, you've worked with the Secretary General, with the former Secretary General, the current Secretary General was the one who commissioned the report Secretary General Buric. So would you care to comment firstly on the procedural handling from now going forward of the report, which is in the hands of the Secretary General? And secondly, on the feasibility, as you see it, of the carrying out of the recommendations. And there's a lot of focus on the summit, and I very much like to hear your views on the feasibility of that being carried through. But of course, there are I think 29 further recommendations from the high level group. So the carrying out of those politically, financially and organizationally is something I'd be interested to hear your views on. Well, thank you very much. First of all, it's great to be here tonight, to have a view on their colleagues and communists and their old friends, chairmen, and his question. When it comes to the process, in regard to the summit, and I think you're alluded to, and also, Ragnar from the Lucifer and Perez, it's 17 years ago, since we had the last summit. So it's really says something about what is behind this idea right now and this proposal. And if you go back and look at the spirit of the Council Europe, I think there were three very much defining periods of the organization. The first, of course, after it was created, and the second, after the war in 1989, when suddenly a number of European states were going to change and become democracies almost overnight. So that's why I also had two important sites in 1993 and 1997, taking up new member states, going against 16 new member states. I propose that we are now in the third defining period of the organization. And that is because for several reasons, and it was referring directly to the first, because the whole system we built up after the Second World War is really challenging within the future. For us in the Council Europe, the European Convention expression, why do we have the Council Europe? Some core cases that's also generated by the discussion. In addition to that, we have the whole rise of populism, of course, which is part of it. But the more immediate reason why we have this discussion now is, of course, the Russian organization. That was really a shocking, you know, for the rest of Europe. Russia was continuously here, and I'm very near the organization. And the Council Europe was the organization we were expelled, the country quite immediately after the 24th of February in the organization. So these warrants, a certain amount of reflection, what are the consequences now for Europe? What are the consequences for the Council Europe? Or what they have experienced? I already explained some of the deeper and the line of political elements here, but certainly what they have seen in the play now from the war that is coming up. Because this is going to have lasting impact on Europe. And also, I believe all international institutions like the country. That's why we have this that's why the idea is there. And that's why I think next week there will be a decision for us to hold the first summit in 17 years, probably next year, as you already said. And then, of course, you need also then to have a follow-up election. And that's why we have asked a panel of prominent politicians, and of course, Mary Lovest, but also with Moharrini, the last president of the Commission, all the prominent politicians. Because we want also this external input, so to say, this external reflection. So this is the external reflection. This is the high-level reflection here. The report is already there. You will get a number of recommendations. Then you also need the internal process. And that's where Fiona and the Parliamentary Assembly's report will be published. And you have already written a very interesting memorandum, introduction of the memorandum. And this is part of the internal discussions. And now these will keep into discussion in the Committee of the Ministry, where all the ambassadors are from all the 46 countries, both external, contribution, and internal from Parliamentary Assembly. And this will then lead to discussions on certainly on the various recommendations. And then we will have to start to develop also very complete decisions for to be taken up at the highest level, with the President and the Assembly of the Secretariat and the State. And of course there will be a reference then to, it will be based on the very interesting ideas and proposals seen between the board. And now, in terms of possibility, I mean, this reflection in the Committee, these discussions that we placed in today, and they are ongoing. And it's hard for me to say now, when we end up with sort of document or sort of decision, we will end up with. But I think studying, I've been able to read both your memorandum and the high level that you did before. I think they overlap, personally, I agree. What I find very, very important, even the mandate of the Council of Europe, is the need to address the issue of the democracy today. How we can strengthen and support the minimum. We can talk about the backsliding of the democracy and how they are undermined and eliminated. And then what we need to do, we need to go back to the base. And what is the base? The basis are the two strong, essential elements of any democracy. Free election, free and fair election, freedom of expression, free union, vibrant civil society, separation of powers, independent judicial reforms. Because these, these we cannot take this for granted. And who can address this issue? The Council of Europe. But I think it's reflected someone in the reports that I've said too. I also think another aspect is very, very important, and I'll just execute the judgment of the union aspect, because that is the essential element of the whole condemnation system that we have built up in Europe. Which is unique. You don't find this type of protection anywhere in any company for this union. And when each type of judgment is implemented for our question, as I said, then we have a body and the whole system is underneath. But we need also to be much more, I think, in terms of addressing this. Because we have, I mean, it was a cherry on this. We have meetings in Stockholm among the ambassadors of the executioner. They are four times everywhere. But what do we do with this union? How can we continue a dialogue with the member states at the capital level? How can we put pressure? How can we make them implement the judgment and see that this is in their own interest? This is this. Then we need dialogue. We need also to have extra peace and assistance. So I think that we must more focus also on the systems. Because in the Council of Europe we have the standards, I think it's very important. We have the monitoring, that we also have the assistance. These are the three things that we're following. But we maybe have to focus even more on the systems for the media. Maybe I may do a lot, but I thought it was very good. Oh, that's excellent. Spoke me in the report by the Heidelberg Group. It's a recommit that, you know, in the face of all the challenges that you've mentioned and have sure set out in the report, above all what's called for is a recommitting by the heads of state and government to the basic. You said yourself back to basics. But I don't, I don't want to estimate how difficult that might be in the change circumstances you've mentioned. The populist sentiment and, of course, the difficulties with some member states, not only of the Council of Europe, but even of the European Union in relation to independence of the judiciary was mentioned. I'm not going to pursue that now. We might come back to it in the Q&A, because we have a lot more to discuss. But our Icelandic colleagues, if the happy event of having agreement on the summit comes about, will have a huge amount of work to put in. So Central Lachlan, you're leading the Irish delegation to the parliamentary assembly. You're a Vice-Chair of Baldy and you've done your work or you're doing your work as rapporteur on a report. I think it was the report which was in process even before the Russian invasion of Ukraine. It was on the question of a summit, but it's obviously given the same added urgency as the reflection process by that. So I'd just like to ask you, in your assessment from the assembly point of view of the group's recommendations, but perhaps you could also say something about the mood in the parliamentary assembly between delegations, the absence of the Russian delegation, which of course is already suspended as Bjorn has mentioned during my time there, because of the Ukrainian takeover. And the mood of delegations about holding the summit and what might come from that. Absolutely, thank you Peter, and thank you for your long talk. And firstly, I'd like to take the opportunity to rally with you for the rest of the leadership of Alan Sixman and of course Minister Kogun and Minister Barn. A lot of work has been achieved over very difficult segments. And I think that the path has really been set in terms of why we need this summit and what we want to achieve from it. And that was really, really essential in what we anticipate will be a positive decision next week. In terms of the high level reflection group, I think they've done excellent work and we can be very proud of Mary Robinson as chair of that within a relatively short period of time. They really highlighted so many of the areas that we need to recommit to, because we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We just have to look back at basics and see how we can do them better, but also to see how we can reach out to the new generation and examine a new generation of human rights, because the world has changed an awful lot and not just since February that, you know, when we look back over the last 20 years of societal change, some of it has been good, some of it not so good. And Bjorn has already touched on the democratic backsliding that we see. And that's incredibly worrying. We also on this was reflected within the group that as the Council of Europe we need to be able to ensure that we have an early warning system in terms of crisis that can emerge such as, you know, the Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. And quite possibly one of the recommendations, one of the 30 recommendations is around paying closer attention to monitoring, to election monitoring, and of course to the regular monitoring that goes on an ongoing basis. But certainly I think that more attention can be paid to those. I think where our emerging report and obviously it's an ongoing work, we expect to have this stage of it completed by the 13th of December. We had a meeting last week with the Council of Ministers and with Congress and both went very well and there was very much support for the ideas that we have put in place. And of course we've had ongoing meetings within HACE itself. We'll be having another one in about three weeks time in Iceland. So we're not at the point of completion because after 13th of December we will have our plenary in January and at that stage we will have the completed document. But the areas that we're very close to with the high level reflection group essentially are around the need for the Council of Europe to be seen as a very clear political community and the need to make that stronger, to have more political clout because we can do more and we should do more and the capacity is there particularly when our member states and particularly the ones that are not within the European Union and hope to be we can do so much work there within those particular countries. So that's something that we're both very clear on. The second area that we're very committed to is how we look at engaging our citizens. That's hugely important and I don't think it's something that we do particularly well at the moment. We need to listen to our younger generation in particular. So looking at how we do that engagement, how we have the public consultation that we need on key issues of societal change. Working out the mechanisms of those is a bigger challenge than saying that we want to do it but it's very important that we say that that's one of the areas that we really, really want to concentrate on. Also the Council of Europe can only be as good as the member states want it to be. And in terms of financially supporting the Council of Europe it's important that more financial resources are put in place particularly when we have a situation now where obviously we won't have the ongoing funding that Russia would have put in. So those three areas are hugely important as well as ensuring that we are able to put a complex area but trying to simplify it that we can ensure that Russia's held accountable for its war of aggression because while there are those key areas that are mentioned that we need to look at because of this particular juncture and you're absolutely right Peter there was a lot of talk about the need for a fourth summit before this war started but that has brought us to this particular crossroads and we need to ensure that that is captured within the fourth summit. The fourth summit of course cannot just be a photo call it cannot just be a summit where we gather with our presidents and our heads of state and government and say you know this is a moment in time we need to prepare for it very much and that's why these you know both the reflection group the consultations that we're having the reflection period that PACE and the committee of ministers have been having since last June are hugely important and the period afterwards in terms of the recommendations that have been put forward will be put forward by PACE and by the committee the committee of ministers how we can have the right conclusions but they need to be practical and pragmatic while we want the summit to be ambitious and to have a renewed vision at the same time we have to ensure that there is pragmatism there too because there's no point in going in with a wish list this size and saying we want to completely change the world because then we're not going to be taken seriously so it's the work is ongoing in terms of the mood obviously since February the key topics in the Council of Europe and many of debates have been about Russia and Ukraine and obviously the Ukrainians have suffered hugely but all of Europe has been impacted you know in terms of energy in terms of food in terms of the people fleeing war from Ukraine and all of us trying to do our very best for them so that has dominated very many of our discussions we're absolutely unified in terms of our commitment to ensure that there will be a fourth summit that's meaningful we're absolutely committed to supporting Ukraine and we're equally committed to ensuring that Russia has held accountable for its crimes in terms of other areas of debate it was interesting we had a debate in terms of brexit and the human rights of the people in northern Ireland been impacted by brexit at our last cleanery it was really an excellent debate and one worth watching if anybody is interested but it's I think it's fair to say too that because of the absence of Russia there have been some positive developments in terms of relationships between different countries that are there particularly Armenia and Azerbaijan and so you know we can take that as a good act none of us would ever hope to be where we are at this point in time but the mood has slightly changed in terms of some of those dynamics how we say but it's been an incredible experience from my point of view to to listen to learn to watch to observe the plenary and the completion of the the work that you've been engaged in and its input to the process I take your point about not overloading a summit if there is agreement of a summit I think that you all will agree that's going to be very important if the key output is to be a recommitment to the basic values of principles two of the areas that I should say that from while we totally agree with the recommendations from the high level reflection group two areas that from pace we're very focused on and I'm interested in hearing what Eva has to say is in relation to climate change and the right to live in a healthy environment and in dealing with artificial intelligence as well there are two areas that we are very much focusing on along with gender-based violence thank you thank you very much so Professor Nolan you've studied and written very extensively on on human rights in Europe and on trends in the the treatment of rights both in Europe and more widely and you have a very practical involvement yourself in the vindication of rights because you have mentioned the vice president of the Committee on Social Rights which oversees the implementation of the Charter which is a parallel instrument to the to the European Convention on Human Rights and well before the the Russian aggression against Ukraine there was concern as we've been saying about what is now termed democratic backsliding in parts of Europe and the intimate connection between democracy human rights and the rule of law is identified in the report the erosion of standards and respect in one of those areas contributes to a more general democratic decline if we can call it that so beyond the the summit and as we said there's 29 other recommendations the report makes a series of wide-ranging suggestions in relation to enhancing and human rights protection and ensuring sustainable democracies so based on your own research your experience your involvement in the the Charter how do you react to the report's presentation of the current human rights landscape in Europe and what is needed to advance it how can it be reconciled with the issue of a sufficiency of resources and which that states are prepared to invest in this part of this dimension how do you react to that well I mean I feel a bit of a copycat because my first comments will absolutely echo what's been said I think it's an excellent report I think the recommendations are pragmatic I think they're very clear I think they're valuable and I was very pleased to see a reference to resources and budget in the report because there is no point turning around and saying we're hugely committed to rule of law democracy and human rights and then not being able not being prepared to provide the resources necessary just you know to support the institutions and the activities to give effect to those values because otherwise you're paying lip service you're not actually showing genuine commitment so for me that was a very strong part of it and I think for me the report is fantastic obviously I mean I know everyone would love me to go through each of the 29 recommendations in detail right at 25 to six this is what we all need but no so I'm just going to flag a couple of things so I think it's very valuable but I was surprised in the report and a little bit disappointed by being conscious of the length and the many many other the many many things that that were covered in it I was surprised to see the limited focus on the really at this point very long-standing socioeconomic and environmental challenges faced by Europe and this isn't just because I'm a social rights fanatic but you know it isn't just that I think you know realistically there's a the report quite rightly its recommendations are focused on you know securing sustainable democracy and democratic inclusion okay but we need to remember that sustainable and effective democracy isn't just about the right to vote or the right to protest or the right to freedom of assembly and there is a you know there is plenty of research that makes a strong link between factors such as poverty economic inequality insecurity depleted living standards and populism political extremism and democratic backsliding right and so and these factors are strongly linked with the effect of enjoyment of social rights okay so it's not just about civil and political rights and if the Council of Europe is serious about sustainable democracy its focus can't be exclusively or even predominantly on civil on civil and political rights and I think and so I think when we're when we're conceptualizing how the Council of Europe and its different entities both political and of course human rights monitoring and etc are thinking about promoting sustainable democracy then I do think social rights and their protection has to be given adequate attention I think that's challenging not just in the context the high level report but in the context of a system where social rights really remain subordinated to civil and political rights okay that is not for a second to denigrate the Convention of the Court they are fundamental however human rights aren't just about civil and political rights democracy effective democracy won't just be secured through the securing of civil and political rights and I think that as we move forward from this crossroads we need to bear that bear that in mind as we push it through I mean and the thing is to some degree it's about you know I'm not saying we go out there it's about the Council of Europe saying oh nation states you should be doing state parties you should be doing this this this and this I mean at a fundamental level it's wonderful to see in the report this reference to perhaps the EU ratifying European social charter but in practice there's much more immediate steps that can be taken by Council of Europe and different entities you know there are only 40 only 42 out of the 46 states that signed up to the social charter as opposed to European Convention far far smaller number have signed up to the collective complaints mechanism and that is within the Council of Europe itself that's before we even get to the outreach let the world know about the values we have so I just want to flag flag that element and I'm very conscious you know that this would have been you know that people are aware of this and we have Michael D. Higgins a superb speech but I think it's something that's coming to the foreign discussions around future developments for the Council of Europe the social rights angle and I think it's fundamental and I want to piggyback a little bit on what Fiona was saying about this key emphasis on you know youth involvement and inclusion of a youth perspective which is a very strong element of the report and that tied together with things like you know illegal instrument on democratic you know education and democracy and the idea of outreach to various groups I mean I think these are fundamental to making the Council of Europe again echoing you Fiona more relevant to young people okay and it's not just about people knowing what the Council of Europe does it's about the Council of Europe actually actively advancing acknowledging and advancing the issues that are important to young people and perhaps important that they accord a very different priority to than say than older people and I mean an obvious example of that is the issue of intergenerational equity which is pretty much hard work into many European societies following the financial and economic crises compounded by COVID-19 and now with the cost of living crisis so if we're serious about the Council of Europe reflecting younger people's concerns we have to bear in mind the particular challenges that younger people face relative to older people whose interests perhaps are better reflected in the work of the Council of Europe so far so I these are I mean they're just a series of thoughts but that's to build on what I think are a set of enormously pragmatic and helpful recommendations and I absolutely agree with Fiona the summit it mustn't become an aspirational wish list you know which ends up being utopian and undermining itself but I do think there's scope for imagination I do think it's important and I thought your report the document Fiona sorry from from your committee that you authored is hugely important in very clearly acknowledging the linkage or the imbrication between social rights poverty inequality in democracy and I do hope that as things develop around the summit that that remains a key part of it and of course climate change is a fundamental element of that and it's not just a social rights issue but I think it's not I think it's frequently dealt with social rights in the same breath and I don't think that's a coincidence Chief um well you've raised a number of points that I think would probably arise further in discussion but before that I want to I want to ask a question of the panel perhaps beyond initially the European Union looms quite large in the report I've eaten surprised perhaps by the extent of which it is referenced and but on the other hand I suppose it's understandable given its size and the resources which it commands and well there's the overlap in membership there are now 26 members of the of the Council of Europe who are in the European Union and of course the European Union although it's not itself a member of the Council is a very major contributor to project work through through an extra budgetary contribution that it makes annually um but what are the practical consequences of getting the EU to exceed to both the Convention on Human Rights and indeed to the social charter which has been mentioned and what is what is the current state of play in relation to that I have to say that those two issues were around when I was there pictures seven years ago so I I'd just be interested to hear and as I say how important is it and where do they stand at present and then perhaps and it's not only to yourself but the role of the Council of Europe vis-a-vis countries which aspire to become members of the European Union but are in whatever we want to call it the waiting room or the anti-room for perhaps quite an extended period of time given the less than certain circumstances in Europe at the moment yourself first oh I I think these issues are very much still around of course there are some positive news now when it comes to the EU accession to the European Convention on Human Rights the negotiations have been restarted they have come quite far now in reaching an agreement there is only as I've heard from those who are involved in negotiations it's very much now related to an internal issue on the EU side related to the European Common Point Policy so these are very promising and an important news I think there was also this discussion in the past that the day the EU exceed to the European Convention that's when we're going to have a new summit that in itself is so important that it warrants the summit because then you will have one system for the protection of human rights rule of democracy in Europe and not two parallel systems so it's really crucial and the news are good having said this of course the EU has really become a very very important partner for the Council of Europe they are very close working relations with between the two organizations at all levels the highest level with the commissioners because they come to Strasbourg of course once a week a week every month and there are discussions then of course with the Secretary General and the various commissioners of course there's a focus on the aspiring countries wants to become member of the EU you said also of course the EU is financing certainly a large degree of what the project cooperation we are doing in various member states up to 60 70 percent now so they are a crucial and important partner for us and I just wanted to say something also about youth and also engaging the citizens so this is really essential there was a survey I think in the Netherlands a few years back they asked young people born after year 2000 how important is it to live in a democracy one out of three found it important one out of three that's the Netherlands and I'm from Norway maybe we found the same survey there or in Ireland I don't know but if you lose the young people and what sort of Europe will we have in 20 30 years if this is that but it's something to come the issue is how do we connect to them and then as you also said a professional we need to connect with with them on issues that they care about that they you know that affects them that they are interested in and we haven't been good enough in doing that and I say that on the council behalf of council Europe maybe it's the same with you you either know about these national institutions so this is so important and we also have spoken a long time ago over several years about the lack of disability of the council because who knows about the council Europe do a survey out there on the streets of Dublin they think it's the EU or then they've heard about it or maybe they've heard about the court this is the same in all European all the 46 member states so we have now come to the conclusion that this is something we need to really address the lack of disability and when I say that it's not going to be that then we are going to tell the whole Europe how brilliant the council Europe is how important we are blah blah no we need to connect to the citizens take up issues that they care about it can be the climate change I mean the work we do now on human rights and environment and that is good that you have it in your report it was not in the high-level reflection group report and also artificial intelligence issue but there are obvious issues that really young people I care about and ordinary people I care about and what we need to do really is to have ordinary people telling their story how the convention how the Istanbul convention have saved lives how the court judgments have really made a huge difference in their own personal lives if you get these people to tell these stories these testimonies then maybe there will be an understanding a better knowledge that the council Europe is quite important as a matter of fact today and if you look at the role of the organization over the last 70 years it's been quite remarkable the harmonization of the legislation in all the European countries when it comes to the protection of human rights democracy and the world world because of the court judgment and but ask people about it they never heard about it they have no understanding of it there are so many elements like this and now we will deal with it we have we are mobilizing 46 member states and they have appointed contact persons in every member state we will start working with them to see if we can define project also targeting you various other people ordinary citizens so that's that's really crucial and I agree fully also what you said on the summit it's not a shopping list of all good causes we want to see this is what happened as a matter of fact the last time that we had in 2005 it was a Christmas tree they said it was everything was there a beautiful tree but we don't need that I mean we need now the more to focus on some of the burning issues and this is what I hope can come out of the next summit you know those are very good points and I think before Ireland even joined was the European Union I think that the membership of the Council of Europe was one of the very few international outlets that the country had even before we joined the United Nations but to the extent that people knew about it it was through court activity and cases brought to the court and I imagine that has helped the visibility of the court in countries now Ireland doesn't have a very high number of applications to the court but countries from the former W Block Eastern Europe do have a number of them of course Russia itself has the enormous number of cases brought to the court but I imagine that helps the visibility of the of the Council of Europe in those countries would you just want to say something either wants to come in very quickly because I think the court judgments are fundamental and I agree with you and I'm sure Jordan and Fiona will come in on the point of how they raise the profile of the Council of Europe and indeed of human rights but I think one of the challenges that the Council of Europe has is that you know I mean there's a democratic backsliding and there's human rights backlash and there's I mean I'm based in the UK where I think we've agreed there's a particularly high profile series of arguments around human rights protection and the role of Strasbourg but more broadly you see this and I think part of the Council of Europe's mission moving forward about entrenching say human rights is to try to somehow make clear that these are not just reactive you know punishment beating you know beating sticks for states it's about it's about how do we get people to take ownership of them to ensure that you know the people they're voting for or the people they're interested in terms of you know law or policymakers use them as a proactive frame for law, policy and resource allocation because I think if we're serious about achieving human rights the Court is these are I mean this is such an important role highlighting violations but actually we sort of want to get to the point where the Court isn't needed I mean you know that's completely utopian there'll always be violations but my point is I think a little bit about that and I think this idea of you know in the report about further engagement with NHRIs and different institutions like that that's fundamental when we're talking about putting human rights at the heart of political decision-making not simply as kind of you know post facto assessment and criticism towards that policy-making That makes some points but of course beyond the Court and the Convention somebody referred to other instruments which are equally which were very important in current circumstances the Istanbul Convention on gender-based violence I think it is or violence against women in particular but there are other conventions impact too and they often have a crossover impact with the European Union when it comes to develop a particular instrument in particular The Committee is ever more slightly national judgments and standard settings so absolutely that's part of the process and I think it's to be welcomed it's just Senator does the EU issue that I raised does it does it figure in your own thinking in the but in the work you're doing on the summit even among members of the the Assembly generally the preponderant ways the EU has in European cooperation in the broadest sense and the the rather than imbalance with the Council on that certainly an imbalance in terms of financial both apart from anything else but I think as Bjorn says you know the partnership is really important and it's important that there's there's a synergy there I do think that on a national level within member countries that there could be more synergy between for example those that are members of the European Parliament of PACE and of Congress and that came up last week where at Congress it's councillors that attend their plenary but it came up quite a bit that they felt quite disassociated from everything else that was going on so I do think that at a national level every country needs to take ownership and responsibility for that element in terms of how the Council of Europe can support accession countries and I thought it was interesting not long after Ukraine applied for their membership they signed up to the Istanbul Convention but the same week the UK signed up I was quite shocked that the UK hadn't signed up years before I really was quite shocked but I think a lot of the conventions that are in place with and obviously and you make the point even that not all member countries have signed up at all but I think that that's there's a system there of monitoring and trying to for the European Union if we do this correctly that there is a system of ensuring that the applicant countries are adhering to a European set of values that we feel very strongly about so I think that's important just one another point that I'd make also when you were talking about and the judgment cases they you know that that make citizens of a country realize how important the Council of Europe is and I couldn't think of a more striking area than David Norris's case you know in terms of homosexuality and that really led the way in terms of Ireland becoming a world leader in relation to the human rights of those within the LGBT community and and I think that's really important so when we talk about the impact of court decisions that's that's just a striking example of one of them and this in relation to Northern Ireland which you mentioned as well of course that's a huge huge a huge impact of course time is moving on I just want to ask before we move to questions about Russia and accountability was mentioned can you just Bjorn perhaps tell us what exactly is the situation with regard to cases which Russian citizens had brought to the court and were in process cases which may have come about as a result of the invasion and from you know Iran what do you say to people who have Ukrainians in particular who have complaints about about Russian abuses so there are around 18 000 remaining cases regarding Russia they are on the books they are now on the books because there was a period from the 15th 16th of March until the 16th of September when we're still accepting Russian complaints cases and the the latest figure I heard it was 18 outstanding cases the president of the court was in the committee of ministers quite recently and they have tried to discuss its how they should deal with this number of cases and I think they will do a certain selections if I understand him right and focus on certain important cases and and then they will take it from there and so I think this is more or less what I can recall of what the court we're going to do now if I'm mistaken when it comes to these cases but it's a dilemma of course every case concerns an individual so it's really a difficult issue for the court to deal with at the same time at the same time they also have the non-corporation of the Russian federation so having Russia expelled obviously had to be expelled but how much we have lost in terms of the access of individual Russian citizens and the court it was a very very huge step when it was when it was taken right let's see if we have some questions sorry for a lot of questions in the room Francis first Francis Jacob yeah thank you very much for a very interesting panel I was as a staff member of the European Parliament I spent many many months of my life in doing preliminary sessions as a tenant in your building two questions one is a slightly wider one than Peter Gunning's question about Russia and that is the Russia being expelled what impact is there on the staff of the of the council and the budget has been mentioned but more importantly what legacy did Russia leave how active was it in the Council of Europe I have no idea I'd love to know about that and my second question is a complicating factor for the visibility of the Council of Europe's work and that is the development of the European political community and having its first meeting having its second meeting now planned in Moldova and isn't that going to further complicate the task of differentiating the work of the Council of Europe from that of the European Union oh thank you very much Francis for your for your question when it comes to Russia and the expelling Russia from the from the organization after being a member for 26 years and the relations to the staff we can only have staff members that are citizens of one of our member states so that's quite clear and there were 58 Russian staff members with only a Russian passport I think 51 of them will leave there were also a number of Russians who had dual nationalities they could be French Russian or Italian Russian of course they are now can say no I am French Francis is a member Italy is a member so there there will not be a direct consequence as a staff member having said this of course that we are all it's not that we are agents of the countries we are from we are international civil servants and they take the oath well that you know we we we we don't belong to any nationalities so to say I mean when we work in the in the Council Europe as such but having said that they searched this of course high degree of sensitivity with what happened and also quite a lot of pressure because it's difficult also being a Russian for example a staff member and going on a mission to Ukraine or to another member state under the circumstances we are in now so there are many aspects to this by the way there was also a number of legal advice taken in the hope to prepare the process and to to take the appropriate decisions which the Secretary General did so but it's still it's a sensitive issue particularly for Ukraine I think but also for many other countries this issue with the Russian staff this is at least the update on that on the budget it was a very important decision taken quite quite early after the expulsion of Russia and that was an agreement that now is not the moment to weaken the Council Europe now the 46 remaining countries within a way bridged the gap in the budget and Russia was a grand peyote they paid 11-12 percent of the budget so now the 46 members as I said who are members now we will fill that hole so that was a very important decision and a very important political one too I think for the organization so they were active in the number I mean they did quite a good job in terms of following up in the execution of judgment for example I mean in the vast number of judgments they were actively followed up by the Russian Federation and so on there were some problematic ones of course also they had the tendency to focus on social rights cultural issues education sports these type of issues but then or there are also other member states who are very actively promoting these issues too so we're not at all alone in this so I don't know if it's fair to say they live in a negative area at all but they were 26 and years of members in the organization and they were quite an active member in a number of areas and so they're quite constructive and I would call young Russian lawyers seconded to the court's section dealing with the implementation of the judgments and a very valuable interaction between them and the court institution of course all of that is what was gone when the even before the invasion and the expansion of the Kremlin takeover was implemented is anything further to add? Yeah from the face point Yeah well particularly in relation to the European political community and that to a certain extent is the elephant in the room shall we say and I think you know in June particularly when I was tasked with preparing this report and having the stakeholder engagement within etc we were concerned about the European the notion because at that stage it hadn't happened the European political community I do acknowledge certainly that it is focusing on areas of energy and security but I would also say that in terms of security the greatest security is democratic security and the count this is where the council of Europe comes in we have a very strong 73 year history and it has been mentioned earlier about you know court decisions that have been made conventions that have been put in place and when you consider the membership and the huge work that has gone into countries working together and I really have to compliment the staff too beyond they're absolutely exceptional you know strictly the ones that I have been working with in pace to say that we need a new political community and to ignore what's there is slightly concerning there while there has been an agreement that there will be the next meeting in Moldova and the timing of that seemed to be around the timing that we had hoped that there would be the fourth summit and then there was the talk that maybe the two would meet back to back that would be completely wrong in my view because that would lead to greater confusion about the role of the Council of Europe and about very strong mandate that it has from its member states so I suppose you know the message that I would say going from here is that let us work together let the political community come to the summit and contribute but I think that we really have to own this space and because of the confusion that is out there and because of the potential threat that it is I think that in itself really asserts the need for that fourth summit so that's my view The Secretary-General to Paris and the President Macron might help to remove some of the ambiguities that you're talking about if I'm I think it was how does it affect capacity but we're a 15 person committee we sit seven weeks a year we divide a very heavy workload and we're all part-time and we're not paid between 15 people and when Russia was expelled it wasn't clear whether our Russian committee member would in fact in fact it became clear legally was unlikely that they would automatically leave the committee they did ultimately resign but so since May we've been doing the work of 15 people which was already too much for 15 people with 14 people and thankfully we will have an election well now it looks like they won't be replaced until from January due to the nomination process but that's a very direct example of where an expert human monitoring body was directly affected by by the move of Russia away from the Council of Law Very well good questions here this lady Valerie you this yeah Thank you and I was formerly Ireland action for Bosnia and now I'm with Syria Community but it's a direct question about Bosnia and the Council of Europe from the Democratization Policy Council in Bosnia my friend Kurt Busiener who has been over here several times to talk about Bosnia with members of the community just with the Council of Europe care to comment on the impact on equality of the franchise and civil rights of the international high representative in position of changes to Bosnia's election law and federation federation constitution on October the second election night five European court human rights rulings Seji Finci up to Puderitz has not been implemented finally does the Council of Europe accept the high representative's contention that he cannot amend the state constitution as per European Court of Human Rights rulings and just finally it was just key key in Fitzgerald who's a member of the Institute he asked a very interesting question about refugees in because Fulcher was one of the three pillars of the Irish Presidency of the Committee of the Council of Ministers and it was just about Minister Kovni said that he would like us to reflect on the contrast between the huge solidarity shown to Ukrainians vis-a-vis the lack of solidarity for Syrians and other people and it's just in view of six members of the Council of Europe and then Turkey is deporting Syrian refugees but there is six members of the Council of Europe Cyprus Italy Greece Hungary Austria Poland they're advocating re-engagement with the acid regime and the whole idea that the non-Refoulmang principle of international law is now being breached it's so shocking because I know myself Syrian refugees here who have family members who are drowning and the impact the traumatic impact on these people who are living in Ireland in our midst is just unbelievable and there's no media coverage there's no coverage of their plight whatsoever but they're so traumatised thank you very much severity and human impact of what you're talking about but with Syria we're straying a long way away from the Council of Europe I take the point of the comparison that you make you've asked a very detailed question about Bosnia I don't know if anyone frankly on the panel is in a position to comment we have a long-standing project cooperation with the Bosnia and Herzegovina you mentioned as Seji Finci judgement has been really an issue that has been raised over and over again by the Council of Europe the need to have it implemented and executed so so maybe I would so here yeah sorry just a quick question Andrew Ford is my name the Council of Europe acted with kind of you could nearly say uncharacteristic decisiveness this year and I say that as a formal as a former staff member with all due respect but it was excellent it really has been excellent to see what's happened this year but one of the points of decisiveness was that the Council of Europe committed both the Parliamentary Assembly the Committee of Ministers have both said that it's really important now to engage with democratic forces in Belarus and the Russian Federation but the question I'd have is how is that going to really look in practical terms I'm not mistaken I'm the I'm the Robinson of the High Level Committee John? Yeah when it comes to the Belarusian Civil Society we are we have had quite close contacts so it was quite some time now she was even invited to the Committee of Ministers Tikhanovskaya as the main representative of the opposition in the country now in exile we have also established now a contact group between the Council of Europe and the various parts of the opposition in Belarus to facilitate so to say a closer dialogue and cooperation and this is just a few weeks ago in September I think we established this a contact group so it's a very new initiative so we are trying to reach out to support the Belarusian Civil Society the independent one the opposition in exile we also had there was also a very good event in the Parliamentary Assembly on how we can help better political prisoners in Belarus and that participates also in this discussion and that is also a very important aspect to this because and then for the Russian Civil Society we will see I mean we don't have come that far I think there are certain institutions that are independent in many ways and organizations as well and how we can support them and we will see everything is so tense now and complicated for the moment so maybe we need a little more time to see how we can also support these more democratic groups and non-forces in the country I don't know There was another question at the back Colin Thank you thank you very much Colin Raptor retired Foreign Affairs and by no means an expert at the Council of Europe I want to first of all congratulate everybody involved in the presidency of the Council of Europe it's been absolutely fantastic and congratulations all around for the great success taking everything that the panel has said without further illustration of my part I just want to mention the leadership that Ethan Oldman has shown over the years in the area of social and economic rights I want to thank her for that question and I know this has been mentioned already the political community we're in a situation where the multilateral landscape in Europe is changing the Brits have left the EU the Swedes and the Finns have joined NATO the OSCE is arguably much weakened because of the invasion of Ukraine taking everything that has been said in terms of the report headed by President Robinson has been correct I was slightly disappointed in that it didn't provide for a more dynamic perspective on how the role of the Council of Europe might evolve in this changing landscape in other words recommittal is fine everything that's been said about human rights is absolutely correct but is there is there a prospect is there a possibility that the Council of Europe could have a more dynamic role in the European architecture it was a real pity that the Prague summit was held without any reference to the Council of Europe arguably I think it should have been the Council of Europe so that's that moment has passed thank you very much okay well that's reopening questions yeah is that all that one thanks Con for your question and I completely agree with your analysis and in terms of the road ahead yes absolutely that you know while the Council of Europe obviously has its you know commitments in the area of democracy human rights and the rule of law and has the like legal expertise to draft conventions etc I think there is a lot more potential that the Council of Europe can take on and I think that has to be a key piece of the summit and I think that that has to be formed part of the recommendations that we will be making in terms of our final report from PACE and I would expect the Council of Ministers during their present reflection period to take that on board and certainly in relation to the two engagements that I have had within at this stage that thinking was very much part of it in terms of how we support and while obviously reaffirm and reconfirm it's how we expand the road so that that is very much part and it's trying to find that mechanism and that's key between now and when this so much will happen other yeah okay so was there one other question from the room no I think yes I'm gentle to the one that Aiden Kirven is my name I'm one of the things I'm former deputy parent rep to the Council sorry I didn't I thought I didn't be here when it was based in Dublin actually but I'm interested to see how bringing back to the specific question of the future of the Council of the panel or any member of the panel would see the cooperation with other institutions in this architecture I'm thinking specifically of the OSCE as the one I'm most familiar with and the Senator mentioned election monitoring which of course is already done by the us democratic institutions who do the rights but I'm wondering if any part has been given to how the role of the Council can be expanded without cooperating with other organizations but avoiding communication and I'm wondering if any part has been given to that by the way just as a footnote as Bergen mentioned earlier on about if you like selling the Council to young people I'm pretty sure that most young people do not know even though it's in the title that the Council of Europe frame of reference for Lightning is actually devised indeed and when they see a one to be indeed it's a good point an Irish official played a big part and she now a good point well when it comes to the summit you mentioned the summit also here but the cooperation with other international organizations I think yeah we will make a point out of it that we need to invite the other international institutions to actively take part in the summit EU OSCE you mentioned the UN just to ensure also this type of or avoiding this type of a duplication to a largest possible degree and and also to ensure the closest possible cooperation with the OSCE I already discussed we discussed the EU I think so I will not go into that with the OSCE it has not been that easy to establish close relations and a concrete cooperation in at various levels with the OSCE as a matter of fact we have tried it over the years for instance one of the strength of the OSCE is it's field operations other missions why can't we not work together in the field maybe share even office space or or exchange experts we have proposed things like this but we have not been it has not been possible to find an agreement with the OSCE on this you can even go further I think we can also exchange on the headquarters basis work more closely together also in certain aspects of the certain monitoring mechanisms we have that certainly is certainly we overlap with what the OSCE do but this type of cooperation has been complicated to to to bring to fruit or to to develop further for different reasons I think they have a different composition in terms of membership for example in the OSCE than we do and but we have tried over the years but it's been different that's when all of the the UN and then you have a role in relation to some of its bodies I think that's a a really I think that's a really good question and it's a different perspective I think it's the perspective between the rights monitoring body as opposed to you know another kind of entity within the cancer of Europe and I when I saw the the recommendation around cooperation with the UN first of all to some degree we're we're doing this but it is work that should absolutely be further developed I mean the work the human rights work the international level and the regional level are mutually reinforcing particularly I mean example of social rights but it's true across the board and I think there's great opportunities to develop to develop that work however that kind of cooperation from the perspective of human rights monitoring bodies requires you know staffing and capacity and resourcing so I think it isn't simply a case of saying that's a nice thing it's about thinking very concretely within the cancer of Europe how in fact you can develop those institutional relationships and forgive me for saying it again resource slash staff them in a way that renders them meaningful as opposed to you know a random exchange of views every three years where you say hello and then move on without actually actively integrating the work you're doing or you know collaborating beyond that but in your context it must be clear that Europe through the Council of Europe has a very advanced if not the most advanced system globally of a collective approach to preservation of human rights I think we have a very strong system I think we need to be very careful about being self-congratulatory and I'm going to highlight there sorry but I meant as a an exemplar for others and so my point is if we look at for instance an area and absolutely this is a fantastic achievement but if we say look that doesn't mean there isn't room for learning from others and that others aren't exemplars for us too and a key example for that is the area of the right to a healthy environment we are the only regional system that does not have legal direct protection of that right in terms of sorry either through the for instance the inter-american system even very significant court judgment in the African system you have it in the context the charter at the UN system you have this general assembly resolution and you know it's being embedded in various different ways we don't have that in the Council of Europe so that's an area in which actually collaboration is where we are on the receiving end the learning end rather than simply other people absorbing our efforts if that makes sense and I think that's important because I think we need to acknowledge where we can learn from others and develop our own work whether learning from others or in turn I think we will wrap it up there I want to say a very big thank you to three panel members to Bjorn to to Ifa and to Senator Lachlan I want to join in the congratulations to the Irish team that has had such a successful tenure in the the chairmanship of the committee ministers but it's not over until it's over so you have you have I think five days left and well no but we no but you you have been very generous in your anticipation of what the final meeting next week which will involve Minister Kovne and his Icelandic counterpart because he's the one who he or she is the one that will be taking over so you've given us a very good preview of what will be agreed at at that session I hope that it will conform to everything we've discussed here today namely the convening of a fourth summit of the of the Council of Europe and well the elements that might the parameters that might surround such a meeting we've I think teased out here today if anything we've we've come to certain broad orientations but it's clear that there are many complex dimensions as well to be to be worked on but no doubt over the next with the input from the Parliamentary Assembly and lots of work between the Irish and Icelandic chairmanship the summit and its documents or its outcome will will become clearer so thank you all very much and we'll um we'll see how it turns out perhaps after the summit time for another meeting here on the Council of Europe thank you all