 Hello, what's your name? Grace, I'm Joey so we've got a sign here yes and do you disagree with it? I it was wait change your change my mind about eating meat for vegan. It says if you're not vegan you support animal abuse change my mind do you agree that if you're not vegan you support animal abuse? I'm pescatarian okay or I call myself pescatarian. What's a pescatarian? A pescatarian is someone who does not eat meat like cows or pigs so no bacon and but they're eat sea animals okay so I eat like fish crabs lobster clams oyster yeah and what about dairy cheese and eggs? I will have eggs and I do have milk with cereal okay I don't eat a lot of milk I mean I don't drink a lot of milk. You don't drink a lot of milk? That's fine, don't be nervous. That's cool I just I just wanted to get an outline of what you think about so veganism encompasses all of these industries for a reason so you don't think that eating fish for this animal abuse or support animal abuse? I do not support animal abuse at all. I have like a dog. I don't support animal abuse. I think a lot of people are thinking about that part. I don't support it but I would say like if a fish you know a fish comes with its life. Do you think fish live their life to the end and then they're dragged out of the ocean and killed you? I think a lot of people will fish and then eat the fish for people to still live in. So if you've got alternatives do you think it's moral to drag fish out the ocean and kill them for food? I think if after they you know live their lives what do you mean by that statement live their lives what do you mean? So a fish could be swimming and when it dies then I see why not eat it. So you're saying if a fish died of natural causes it's like I don't I don't think that's animal abuse if a fish died of natural causes by the way yeah yeah I think that would be I think that'd be fine and then eating it. Okay is that what you do? Do you find dead crabs and that lived a happy life and that died naturally? No but I think that's the way it should go because the industry is like really not great. I've seen videos on one sec can we just keep this on the topic here? Sure because I'm saying if you're not vegan you support animal abuse. I'm not trying to look for a scenario where eating an animal that's already dead is okay. I want to know if you're not vegan in today's society here in the UK when you have alternatives around you know what vegan alternatives are and you choose to support the industries that kill animals or exploit animals do you support animal abuse? I do not support animal abuse no I don't. Explain how that's true. How don't you support it if you pay for them to be killed? That's a really good point. Yeah no I don't have it really you're right about that. Because animals obviously killed on your behalf if you want to consume them. If I go to a store and buy you know salmon or crabs or whatever. You're funding the demand. Right yeah I totally no I agree with everything you're saying and I would be vegan I just it's really hard for me to get protein like in ways I think like I get really hungry. You know I thought about the same thing so you're not the only one when I first. Right because you're vegan right? Yeah yeah yeah so where do you think protein originally comes from? The animals you eat the sea animals you eat where do you think they get their protein from? They might eat a lot of animals in the ocean eat each other but they might see they do eat each other. What about land animals where do you think they get their protein from? I think well eating grass and food. Like grains and things like that. I'm not big until I'm full. That's okay. Do you think you can get protein by eating plants that's what I would just ask you. Yeah yeah no yes you can get vitamins and protein from plants I know that. Okay so do you think there's any justification to choose animal products over vegan products? Like what is the justified right like how do you justify that when you have alternatives to go I want to pay for fish to be killed dragged out the ocean suffocate stabbed gutted all of that when you have an alternative made of beans or tofu or grains. Well if there was an alternative I would eat it instead of meat. Is there an alternative? I don't know enough about it to know if there is. I'm sure there like I know you can get protein from like nuts and beans and spinach as it right? So all nine essential amino acids which make up protein are found in plants originally. So even lettuce has amino acids. All plants contain protein in varying levels. Then I would eat that yeah I do eat that. I do eat that with some seafood. Would you be worried about your health if you chose plant based eating? Not if I was full and knew I had enough protein going into my system when I was like healthy. My doctor said I was like healthy. That's interesting. So these industries that exploit animals you agree that by virtue of supply and demand when you pay for products that directly exploit and kill animals you're supporting animal abuse you agree with that? I think that would include that yes. Because I know in your heart you might not. Right and a lot of people probably deny it like what they think about it and be like yes but deny it themselves. Because this stirs up a little bit of like a conscience because in your heart you're against animal abuse but in your actions. You're like supporting it even if you don't intend to yeah. So I use this analogy like I'm against domestic violence but I beat my wife every day. Does that make logical sense? Horrible horrible. Does that sound consistent? That makes sense and that sounds horrible when you like hear that yeah. Like I love my dog so much but I'm going to kill him and eat him. I don't think that's right no. And not in a survival situation either because we're not in a survival situation here where we have to do some crazy stuff hey. Yeah that's all terrible stuff. So would you agree that like in today's society where there's a bunch of alternatives you can get protein obviously it's pretty established now that you can get all your nutrition on a well planned vegan diet. So do you think there's any justification for not choosing vegan options? I think that if you are a meat eater and you didn't get it from like if we I think part of the issue is like the industry like all these chickens are getting put into like farm. Maserita? Yeah. Have you heard of a maserita? Let's see if we can find it. Yeah I'm pretty sure I have but I don't believe that killing animals just for us to eat when they're still alive is right. I think like a chicken should be able to you know live its life and then at the end when it died instead of it going to waste I guess or going back into the earth. If someone likes meat and likes chicken they should be able to have the chicken. So my dog died is it okay to eat their body and not let it go to waste? Never had a dog I wouldn't eat dog personally. Have you had a pet before? Yeah yeah I have a dog. Okay if your dog died would you not let their body go to waste and eat it? Just wondering. Curious. I personally wouldn't know. Why is that? Because I don't really eat dog. I don't eat farm animals or land animals. This is a dairy cow. She's gone to the slaughterhouse because she can't produce milk anymore. This is her daughter. She's being executed for someone's burger but she comes from the dairy industry so 50% of the beef in this country comes from the dairy industry. So if you're eating dairy this is what we're supporting. I don't think that's right. I think that an animal should have it's life because an animal is an animal and I think it should have it's life. The industry will just raise all these animals and then kill them when they're still living. I don't think that's right and I don't support that at all. But you generally do support it though. I support what? I mean you don't support it in your heart but I'm saying in your actions do you support it? You know we're talking about supply and demand. So if you're not vegan you support it. This is what I'm trying to say. You might not support it here but here. But like when you look at your plate then you're supported. It's a dead body or it's cheese or it's a dead fish. So these industries only exist because of the public. This is the point I'm trying to make. And that's what I'm saying. I don't think it's right. I don't think that's right that they're getting all raised to just be killed and treated like that. Do you think animals have moral value and deserve the right to live their own life without being used or exploited as a product? I think a cow should just be a cow or a chicken should just be a chicken. I don't eat them myself. Who taught you that dead animals are food? I think it's just in our culture kind of. And it's in a lot of cultures you know. When you're little your parents serve you a plate of something. It's like this is food. This is what we're having for dinner tonight. They don't show you this do they? No. They probably haven't seen it themselves. They probably haven't. A lot of I think part of the reason why you get served that too is people don't not everyone knows this goes on and I think that's not right. Do you think they might intuitively know something's up but they just don't want to face it? Maybe. Maybe. Or some people just simply grew up on that for generations. Like their parents taught them that and their parents taught them that. And they just kind of continued on with tradition without giving it much thought. No one really gives a second thought about picking up a pack of meat in a grocery store. Or I shouldn't say no one because there are people in this world who do. But I don't believe many people do pick up a package of meat and have a second thought about it being like hmm where was this made? How was it like? When you see fish get dragged out of the ocean by their face they're swimming peacefully through the ocean. They get dragged out by their face and stabbed in the throat and gutted and things like that. That whole process you wouldn't be connected to when you purchase it in the supermarket. Exactly. You're just like oh food I'm hungry and you know I have a family I gotta feed. You know oh this works. And so you pick it up and you buy it without thinking like huh what happened to the fish or what happened to the cow? So the dairy cow or the hens that get minced up alive? Exactly. I don't need any of that anyways. The egg industry so the hens don't get minced up alive. So the male baby chicks will get minced up alive because they don't produce eggs. The hens will be exploited for their eggs and then killed for chicken. So that's why vegans don't consume eggs because they cause the same problem. You sound like a very honest person. You sound honest like you're not trying to escape from the issue here. No because it's an issue that's very real. And even though I might sound like a horrible human like because I eat meat. I don't think that. Do you think that I think that? No I don't think so at all. I understand what's going on. It's an issue that's all around the world that's happening. And I genuinely believe that a lot of people don't give a second thought about a hamburger or anything. Well I ate meat for 26 years. I used all animal products. I didn't know about the industry but once I did I couldn't live with that hypocrisy in my heart. I had to align what I did with what I felt and what I believed. Because I believed I wasn't an animal abuser. But my actions were completely contradictory to that. Which is why I used a domestic violence analogy. And it's a good analogy. I agree with that. It doesn't make sense to me to have a rape free Monday. It's just like be anti-rape. Or even a racist free Monday. Be anti-racist. If you're against animal abuse your actions have to align with that. Yeah I agree with that. I remember when I was younger I did actually eat cow and pig. I ate all of that. I stopped eating it personally because I didn't like the taste of most meats. And I'm like why am I eating this if I don't even like it. So that's how I first stopped. But I mean these points are really good points too. And I did watch in my classes, I remember in 9th grade I think. My science teacher showed us a video of how the farms were. And how they were treating animals. And I'm like oh my god I'm glad I stopped eating meat. Because that's horrendous what happened. Do you think you would think twice next time you go to purchase animal products? Oh yeah. I do try and be conscious. But I'm like with what I'm purchasing. What if I gave you like a little challenge to do and it's free on Facebook. It's called a vegan challenge. Because you know and then like I obviously want you to be a consistent anti animal abuse vegan for the rest of your life. But this is 22 days where they'll sort of guide you. And you can do it like sort of as a foot in the door and go move on from there. Then you know what to eat and you know these questions that you have. Because you might be concerned about protein which is not a nutrient of concern. I don't have enough calories. But yeah this is a really good these are some more resources at the environment in health. But would you complete the challenge on Facebook. And then go from there. I can try yeah that's a pretty that's an interesting challenge. I feel like that's like scarier. But then once you're in the challenge you know I got this isn't so bad. What's scary about letting go of the foods that you're used to. Maybe what I'm saying for people in general I think it'd be like a scary challenge. For me personally it's just like getting making sure I have enough nutrients. I'm being healthy and my body is getting what it needs you know the vitamins and protein and all that. It's scary because like you eat all these products without really thinking twice about it. And so then to adapt your diet but also be conscious of your health and making sure you have everything. I think it's scary because of that. Like the adapting and trying to make sure you have everything that your body needs that's what I think. There's a fantastic research source it's called nutritionfacts.org and they're research scientists and they pull up the best available evidence on plant-based eating. And there was a big peer-reviewed statement that the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics brought out. And they said that vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of life. Pregnancy, infancy, athletes, the elderly and it's backed by about 117 studies. So you could look up that and then you get the backing of such a large group of nutrition experts. There's about 100,000 of them and it's backed by the NHS as well. As long as it's well balanced and you're getting your B12 and you're making sure that you're eating a balanced array of different foods. You're eating enough food. I think that's a good challenge. That's why the vegan challenge they'll help you. They've got guidance on there for you. Right, right. I guess I'm like... Don't lose the table. I know. Everything just blows off. It's like, I think it would be easier for me just because I'm halfway there already anyways. I think you're actually all the way there here. But just not in your day-to-day actions. Right, right. Cause like I eat like fish and other seafood. And if I had a fish here and I dragged them out the tank and started to stab the fish, you'd probably tell me to stop. I wouldn't want you to do that. Cause you know fish feel pain and they suffer and... Yeah, yeah. They're different to us but they have a desire to live their lives. I mean just this morning, I'm not even lying. Just this morning me and my little sister were taking the trash out and I saw like this half, like the bird was injured. It was one of those pigeons. It looked like something attacked the pigeon. I felt so bad. So you hate seeing animals being harmed. You would hate that. Cause it's like... They feel pain. They feel like suffering and it's not great seeing an animal suffer. I mean it's not great seeing a person suffer and never mind an animal. So whenever you pay for that fish, you're causing that fish's suffering. So if it was in your face, you would like... If you've seen that fish in your face suffering, you wouldn't... I don't want to pay for that. You'd go for the vegan option, wouldn't you? What do you mean? Like if you've seen the fish, whenever you paid for fish, if you've seen their suffering in your face, you would go for the vegan option. What's the vegan option? Are you saying like a synthetic fish or something? You could get some tofu fish or you could get some beans or some fruit and potatoes and there's many different alternatives now made out of different plant products that mimic the taste. I would go for that if I saw like a fish literally getting tossed out of a water, killed and then given to me. I'd be like, nope. I'm going to eat some pasta instead. I'll have like an Italian pasta dish, veggies and pasta. Wait, that's not even Italian. It is pasta Italian. Yeah, that's fine what you put on there. But it was really lovely to talk to you. You sound like you're all the way there, just not in your actions. So you'd say, but before we finish that, you agree with this statement? Do you still disagree with it? No, no, no. If you're not vegan, you support animal abuse. That's really tough. I wouldn't want to say that, but most people don't let the animals live to the end of their lives before killing them. I mean, before eating them, not killing them. They would get killed first before they got eaten. Sorry, I'm not making this. So if you're not vegan, you would support what happens to animals for your food and products. You don't want to agree with it because if you agree with it, then you'd have to align yourself with that. Because you're kind of calling yourself an animal abuser if you agree with it. I'm not really worried about myself. I'm just thinking of all the other people. Well, I want to only know about you. Oh, me personally. Like what you think of the statement. Not what other people think, but I want to know what you think of it. Do you think it's animal abuse to not be vegan? Do you think you support the industries that abuse animals if you're not vegan? I think you're supporting the industries, yes. Even if you don't mean to. But what about the people that, oh, I don't, that's a really tough question. I don't know because, yeah, personally, I don't support like, you know, I guess I do support it with the fish and seafood when I have it, but... So you would say that, you know... It's such a tough question. Well, I can leave you with the thought. Maybe you can ask yourself that question later on and see if it sinks in a little more. Maybe do a little bit of research. You know, watch Cal Spiracy, watch Land of Hope and Glory, see those industries and see what you think. Really nice to talk to you. He's talking to you. Thank you. Thank you. So I guess we're going to cut that there, but no one's really done a very good job at changing my mind. So I think we'll continue to do this and see if anyone can change my mind. You can try a vegan challenge, alright? How's that sound? How do you become a vegan? What do you eat? What do you eat? So most people eat vegan food anyway. So pasta, rice, bread, potatoes, starches, anything that comes from an animal, though, like cheese and milk and yogurt, find an alternative for. Find a vegan yogurt, find a vegan cheese. It's a vegan milk. Yeah, soy milk, grass milk, almond milk. There's about 13. Soy milk's still vegan. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't come from an animal? So I'm already part vegan anyway, because I do eat pasta a lot. Okay, yeah, so your diet is, but veganism is like, it's like a belief. Okay? But I do believe that I will soon not be killed. Yeah, you do. But your actions might still purchase the products that hurt them. That's why when you align, when you put in align your belief and your action, that's when you're a vegan. And I feel like I'm nearly a vegan because I do... Yeah, I think so too. I think in your heart you are. And then when you know what products from the supermarket are vegan. So all fruits and vegetables, all beans, all rice, all bread, all of those, anything comes from a plant. But when you see cheese from a cow, get the vegan cheese, okay? Made from coconuts or nuts. When you see eggs, they're not vegan. Use tofu makes scrambled tofu. When you see dairy products, ice cream, get the vegan version. And most people at the supermarket, that work there will tell you where the vegan options are in that supermarket. As long as it didn't come from an animal, it's vegan. And then you can start thinking about later on, clothing, skin, animal skin, they're killed for their clothes, their leather, their wool, feathers, all of these other areas they're tested on for products. They're used and exploited in different areas of our lives. So it's good to start to be conscious if things are coming from an animal or if they came from plants. I definitely support, I definitely think people should think about them, think about them in the future because I think that killing a dog or something, it's important. So I think people should think about what they eat or what they do. 100% agree. There's no difference between killing a dog or a pig or a fish, is there? No. That's amazing that you feel that way, dude. And I hope this is the beginning of a vegan journey for you.