 Hi, my name is Danielle King. I'm the director of cultural programs at the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council. So this session is devoted to the idea that making and then sharing theater has two foundational needs, one being time and one being space. So the plan for the next 45 minutes of hour is to share a little research into creative development space and how theater makers in NYC are utilized in those spaces. And then hopefully have an active conversation with you about how that does or doesn't reinforce your own experiences or your own knowledge of this network and what questions it could prompt for future further investigation into this, because this is a very precursory kind of let's see how much data we can get compiled quickly and then see what we want to move forward, potentially to something deeper. So thanks for joining me. First, I want to talk a little bit about my connection to this and investment in this topic. So I'm really happy that Andrew invited me here to prelude, particularly because this year celebrates the maker. And the word theater maker has a very personal connection in my background as a theater maker and how as someone who's devoted to bringing their time and their passions to making space for artists and facilitating their creative development of their work. And I also think this festival and the ability to focus on the making of things is so, it gives us this rare opportunity to come together and share knowledge and experience about making work. I find that we all tend to be busy working with or alongside each other on our different tracks of projects and we're really aware of our community and the network that we're working within. But we don't often have the time or the space to talk about what it's like for all of us and how we build our networks and how can we lean on each other and mobilize each other's networks and each other's experiences. So I feel like this is a really nice moment to be able to come together and do that in a small way. And at LNCC in my role there, I really have to understand the realities of how artists are working, how work is being made, which is changing constantly and how to leverage our existing resources and networks or identify new networks and resources in which to support that creative development. So much of how LNCC empowers artists is about creating space, making space for artists to then go on and make their work. So, in talking to Andrew about Kailu, we felt it was really important to have a conversation about space, which I at LNCC is very invested in. And that it would be really interesting and beneficial to pool our knowledge about how we identify and use space for development and see what that looks like. So, I just completely forgot that one introduction sign. That was my intro. So, what did we do? And all of these photos actually are photos from the residencies that LNCC has supported in various spaces, a lot of which is totally donated empty commercial office space in Manhattan. Therefore, it looks unlike most rehearsal spaces. So, what did we do? So, we thought we would develop a really quick, really dirty survey to get some initial data on the basics of space in NYC. So, what is the space? Where is the space and how are people accessing it? And then, we developed that really quickly. We sent it to a list of prelude artists and also a little bit on social media. So, we kind of used the prelude framework as the framework for this preliminary research. And we got 91 responses in a really short amount of time. Just great. And from there, we went to work it out. So, here's what we found. So, the first thing. Thank you. Here we go. Okay, so the first thing is we wanted to understand who was completing the survey and contributing their experience to this research. We really hope to capture the feedback of a large spectrum of prelude artists in terms of how long everyone had been making work in New York City. So, this shows our 91 respondents and how they have identified how many years they've been making work in New York City. So, you can see it's really heavily tilted towards, there's comments were heavily tilted towards people who had been working in New York City to make work for over a decade. I think if Andrew were here, he would wanna have like a whole conversation about what this means in terms of the larger field and are we pricing out artists? Are, is prelude not bringing in emerging art? Like all of those things, we're not going to talk about those things today, but it's good to kind of look at this and acknowledge who has been, has contributed to this information. Yeah. And also at any time if people have questions, just. And that kind of how long people have been making work will be a little bit of a framework for how we see how we do the other data. So, it's good to keep that in mind. Oh, come on. Quite sweet. Okay, it's missing some of the data, but so the other thing we wanted to make sure we were paying attention to is time. How much time, the time that is needed to develop a work? So, every project and every process is different. So acknowledging that, we ask kind of on average, how long do you develop a project over a period of just a year or multiple years over many, many years? And maybe unsurprisingly, and the numbers are missing from the bottom, but I'll show you. So that peak right there, is about one to two years of development time. So, it does reflect a range, it goes anywhere from like zero to one years to, I think the most we had was maybe like five to 10 years, but there's a kind of nexus around development over one to two years. And this, again, the strata signify the respondents who have been, how long they've been making work in years, I mean, right? It's also interesting, we did also ask about, aside from kind of a development timeline, when you're in a creative development space about how often, how many hours a week are you utilizing the space? Again, got a huge range of things from like one hour to like a hundred hours. But there seem to be some sort of consensus around like 20 hours a week, is what people were saying. I'm gonna get the hang of this. Okay, so, when we're talking about creative development space, we're talking about a lot of different kinds of space and not all space is equal, not all space is the same. Spaces come with all sorts of conditions and factors and characteristics. And each artist's practice is very different and requires different things. And each project development cycle is very different and requires different things. But can we start to make, can we start to say what matters most in general about creative development space? Aside from cost, putting cost aside for a minute. So, we asked a question of what matters most to you? You can pick up to three of these responses. And also there was like an opportunity to write in other, identify other things that were important. So, this is the top responses. And I'll note that, so, the top three being proximity location, which is something I think we'll talk about later as we see the visualization of these creative development space networks because we didn't necessarily ask proximity or location to watch or to wear. But we know now location is a factor. Accessibility, room design, when we see lesser, of less importance at least to this responding group, technology exclusive use 24 access, safety and ethics, which also seemed a little surprising. We want all our spaces to be safe. Sort of under how people's experiences have effected them actually de-prioritizing safety or ethics. And then storage actually was a write-in. It was an other, and I think that if maybe we had put storage in as one of the pre-selected options, we would have got a lot more traction there. Because, at least in my experience, that ability to have dedicated space to restoring things over and over every day, I think is not something to, it's definitely something that people consider. So then, we get to the cost question. So cost is always a factor, obviously, in making work. And without getting too deeply into the topic of finances, we didn't want to just understand, recognize that now all development is happening in residencies or in free access to free spaces. So how often are people paying for space? So this church starts to answer that question at least through this particular pool of respondents. And it shows the frequency of paying for space, none of the time, some of the time, most of the time, all of the time, in relation to how long, again, respondents have been making work in New York City. So, it's kind of dark, but you see the first bucket is people that have been making work in New York City from zero to two years, then three to five years, six to 10 years, 10 to 20, and then 20 plus years. Interestingly, the only subset that picked that they were paying for space all the time was the 20 plus years group. But so what you start to see is like a slope, an increased slope of free access to space as you get up to like making work for five to six years, and then there's like a deep decrease. Which, why is that? Things that Andrew and I have thought about is maybe it starts to reflect the networks that people build and the traction they start to gain as they're working in New York City and developing work and that you might get around a particular project or a career stage after so many years in the city, and then maybe as you reach a threshold of making work over five years or your company or your infrastructure or your project needs become really specific or detailed and where your schedule becomes really kind of specific and requires paying for space more of the time. Maybe it's your own space, maybe it's a rented space. It's a specific kind of space or a specific location. It's just one kind of thing that we thought maybe might explain this, but again, we would have to look further to really understand what that trend is all about. Okay, this is maybe my favorite part. I should have done a bigger reveal. So now we get to the moment where we can really start to visualize this network that we've been talking about, creative development in very dry, quantitative ways, up until this moment, hopefully. So we asked every respondent on this survey to list as best as they can remember every space they have used for creative development in New York City. And so we got, and then we got this work club. So if you take a minute to look at it because it's really dense, you see spaces that we all are very familiar with. Abrans Arts Center, you see La Mama, you see Art and Lies being super popular and having a lot of overlap of respondents, which was surprising to me. You see LMCC, not to point us out, but you see it there. You see the public. You see things like my apartment being really having a lot of consensus, a lot of overlap. Which I find so fascinating. And I wonder what that means. Like, does that mean people are writing in their apartments? Does it mean they're actually building work on people in their apartments? Are they rehearsing in their apartments? I'd love to like dive into that more in all of these to some extent. You also see places, if I can find an example, that are really, they're closed or they don't exist anymore. I think Joyce Soho is on there somewhere. Anyway. So when I look at this, I think all those things and I think, oh my gosh, how amazing and extraordinary that New York City is this home for so much creative development that we have all of these spaces that we can utilize, that we can consider homes for making work, testing out ideas. And then on the flip side, I think, how maddening and frustrating for someone who is making work and overwhelming because probably more often than not, you're using one or probably a handful of these spaces every time you're creating one project. So just the logistics of that and the scheduling of that and the bringing your collaborators to those places is kind of the dark side of the administrative burden of making work, right? And I think you start to see that here. The other thing, the other way to look at this, how many thoughts about this work that we can go back to it when we start talking, but anything that reaches out at the logistics end of you? How many are you going to have in the three years? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so like doing that sort of mapping, which we didn't do, would be really fascinating. And again, this also isn't taking into account the presentation spaces either. So... Correct. And they all have different ways of accessing their space. So we're somewhere through residencies. You're a membership, so there's all of those different things to navigate through as you're trying to create work in the city. Okay, the other way I want to show this network is geographically. So you can see it not only by the sheer volume of the places, of what the places are and what areas, how much overlap respondents have, but by the location of these places. So this is a heat map, made via Google Maps with somewhat crudely and it's a little hard to see, where all these spaces are, and what areas have some density or intensity and creative activity as translated through identifying spaces for creative development in those particular neighborhoods. So it's maybe kind of predictable. The village has a very high intensity. Midtown gets a little red spot there too. There's some points of intensity in Brooklyn. There's some, there's like a tea tiny bit up by Columbia. Some and others get some in a little bit in Queens. You know, it's fairly, yeah, it's maybe, maybe what it's, it's what you were going to do, maybe it's not, I'd be curious to know that. But what it makes me think about is going back a little bit to that, what attributes of a space matter most to you and the idea that proximity or location was listed as the top one and we didn't quite ask, we weren't really specific about proximity to what or what kind of location. So is this proximity to where people live? I don't think all of us live in the town of Manhattan so I'm inclined to say no. Is it about where, where is most convenient for collaborators to come to? Is it proximity to the actual presentation space? Is it proximity to something else kind of like not artistically relevant entirely? Like, oh, my kid's school or, you know, my day job or whatever that is, that would be kind of our next step is like to peel back those layers a little bit as well. So now we've just gone through a bunch of dry quantitative data and I'm wondering how looking at all of this and your own experiences of actually making work, how does it feel? Does it match your experience? Does it feel wildly different from how you move around in this network? Yeah, I just kind of want to start conversation about it. So do I want to go back to a particular slide and look at it more? This is an idea about the people who've been working for 20 years or more? So the artists who've been working for 20 plus years, the only people that said that there was a group that's a big always pay for work. I know, and I wonder if that's because they were able to find space 10, 15 years ago that's rent stabilized, that works, and they're like, I'm gonna never let him go. And so it's interesting because payment isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean it might actually reflect a level of stability and might reflect that you finally found a space that don't work, you know what I mean? Totally. Rather than the word cloud which suggests like this, you're always searching. So I just thought that that was kind of maybe an interesting way to think about paying as not always a negative. I think that's really great. I think it's very easy for us to get into like the burden of the financial burden of making work and then there is something empowering about, well if you're paying for your space, maybe you are an owner, you own a space. Like maybe it's your space. And then maybe you can provide that resource to other artists and then you're contributing to the network in which you are a part of. Yeah, that would be super exciting to interview those people who said that and see why they pay for space. What's important to them? Up there, let me go back to the word cloud because I just really like it. Yeah, I guess I was thinking about the relationship between affordability and hassle. And then that's kind of the background factor that was sort of implied by the data that didn't quite show up on that chart because the cheap spaces in New York you have to book two months ahead which becomes profoundly impractical as you go along in your career and like your collaborators get busier and busier. So I thought that that kind of might have been a self factor in that distribution chart because when you're first starting out the cost is overwhelmingly maybe the most important thing. But then as you go on, the cheaper spaces and the free spaces require huge amounts of time and energy and planning to actually access. So as soon as you have some funding that's kind of the first thing, you think, okay, finally I can schedule my rehearsal two weeks ahead, is I an important workspace? Yeah, the flexibility required kind of earlier in your career where you're rehearsing at night, you're rehearsing in the morning, rehearsing between your day, yeah, that makes total sense. One of the things I think is interesting which definitely feels familiar to me about the way that we're organized as an industry, as a sector is that there are 91 respondents but there are way more than 91 spaces. And that seems to suggest that maybe in fact there is enough space to a certain degree but the way in which people are forced to make work, the way we organize making works to work amongst ourselves, the way we want to advance more quickly than maybe we're ready to artistically or professionally make some massive things. This to me is just like a mess, what a mess, you know? And what would it feel like if instead of it being this mad free-for-all that we all participate in, what would it be like if we found more permanent relationships to space that best suited certain organizations for a certain amount of time? What would that look like? How would that feel? Would that be better? Would that be worse? My feeling is that it would be much, much better but that we're really for whatever reason stubbornly refusing to leave our castles. We're all Castilesmo-y people. And I think one of the interesting things about this crowd is that as with most art stabbing things it's mostly women, of course, who are actually thinking about what the hell the problems are and leaving their castles to be with other people and talk about what we're doing on this plan together. And so I think that to me is indicative of also the nature, the competitive nature of what we're doing. Instead of just sitting down and talking about how we might give you some of these spaces together, we're like, I'm gonna call my person at LaMama and I'm firing them like six hours this week for free and screw everybody else, you know? So that mirrors that situation for me a lot, that what could it look like if we actually sat down and said how many companies are there? How many spaces are there? What do you need? How do you give this up in a more permanent way? Well, yeah, and that goes back exactly to this kind of why I'm so excited to be in the room here right now because we're all navigating these networks together. We're all moving through them. We're using them in different ways. We have our different contacts and our different methods but we all aren't sitting together every once in a while in a big group to say, how's that going for you? How are you doing that? Oh, how could we help each other? How can we leverage each other's doing because it so often feels like a competition and it's not right. I mean, the prize is making sure that art happens in the world and we maintain a level of vibrancy in New York City that makes, that for everyone, right? Oh, yeah, lots of likes, we have them in the room. I don't know what I'm gonna try to be is that not anonymous about this as possible but it's my own personal story. Three years ago, I'm actually originally a fiction writer and someone who's interested in a short story of crime didn't want to be turned into other dramatic writers sort of through the back door and one of the first productions I had put up in New York I just sort of found this person who was directed something and he, through his school, he knew certain people. This was here many years ago and I ended up getting three more personal space in a production in one of the really great theaters on the Lower East Side at the time and that was all splendid and the guy who ran these theaters was very busy, busy about who was coming in and out this course. You know, it was very relaxed and the spaces were lovely and then a very famous trio of musicians sort of wandered into my rehearsals while I was working and observed my play and got the script and walked up and then made a fortune on Broadway. And the reason I'm sharing this is that's the prize but that's not the prize that anyone in these situations talks about and so I was completely unaware that that was even possible. But that, I mean, clearly in the abstract it was aware but it never dawned on me that something like that would happen to me and I think that that is why people are so, I think that's the real reason why people are so cautious about sharing because really people are trying to protect their work. That's just something I would like to add. I'm not actually like that myself which is of course why I got taken but you know, anyway, just something to, it's unbelievable but it did happen. So yeah, that's a terrible story and I'm sorry, what it brings up for me is this idea that, okay, so something else and maybe this speaks to that safety and ethics to things that weren't highly selected by respondents that we also have to make sure that these creative elements spaces are welcoming but also that we are all respectful of each other that everyone's coming into these spaces with profound respect for each other, each other's practice, each other's work which sounds like that maybe is not what happened in that situation, you know? So there's- There were very high level people involved too but I mean like really high level people who are still professionally black. Yeah. So those people are the people who are really, really, really passionate about it but you know, I mean the people sort of work at my level, I think most of them didn't really know what was happening, it was just, but it's just nothing to talk about as far as you know, I think that is actually the bigger issue than most people realize. Because there's a lot of money to be made. Sure. Thank you. They make $50 million. Yeah, so how do we make spaces that don't bring that sort of competition or that sort of a lot of, just to bring on CCA to this a little bit, a lot of what we talk about when, in our department we're talking about residencies and what kind of spaces we want to create for our artists. We believe strongly in co-work development. We believe really strongly in making sure that the people that are gonna be in those shared spaces are going to benefit from each other being in those spaces, that they're going to be generous, that they're going to be eager to learn about each other and their process. And sometimes, with no kind of expectation of like, oh, you must go collaborate with that person down the line, although sometimes that does happen. So I think it's a really good point to make that we're talking about very tangible, solid things here when we're talking about what matters about space, like obviously the space and how large it is and what it has and how you access it and how much it costs and if there's a piano in there if there's a dance floor. But then there's this whole other thing of like what is the kind of culture, the feeling around being in those spaces, are they spaces that make you want to work? Are they spaces that like kill creativity, you know? And I think that that is where like safety and ethics and stuff like that plays a role. Yeah, I think like the ethos of rhythm, I believe the space is a pretty high indicator that didn't make it onto that nested form that I would have recognized if I would really have to survey. But it's like looking at some of the spaces up there, some of them are very artist-friendly and some of them are more places that are just trying to make money. And there is definitely a relationship between like how much you want to reverse there and the kind of orientation of the space. Yeah, I mean, and then that makes me want to kind of dig into, okay, so can we divide all of these spaces kind of along the lines that you're saying, like there's space and then what else do they provide or what kind of vibe do they have or what are the attributes maybe less tangible of them? And then why would you access that space for, like would you access that for a particular reason, you know, as some portion of your creative development or would you prefer to just be in these kind of spaces and then what could we do to make those kind of spaces more like these kind of spaces because it would be a worthy investigation, I think, further? Sort of going off of that, I'd be really curious to see as I step in this exploration more information about what sort of sub-communities and downtown creative makers happen to like circulate in what particular spaces, like who's developing work at our MI and what are the other spaces that those groups are using and how often and starting to look at the types of work that have these different spaces as their like nexuses of creative, like positive places to start developing things and starting to think about the way that different levels or different types of space facilitate the creation of different types of work and support different types of communities and what kinds of different artists are having an opportunity to meet each other because they share spaces and what artists never encounter each other or aren't influenced by each other's work at all because they're never sharing the same creative spaces. Yeah, I think we think about that a lot too. I think it's particularly hard with people who make time-based work, right? Because you're bringing your collaborators into a room and you're shutting the door and you've got your time in there and then you leave and so the ability, one of the things you were saying is like the ability to kind of create that sort of like cohort and feeling community in those types of spaces. You might not actually know who else is in there. You may never cross paths with them and certainly there are spaces that are more conducive to certain types of work and to map that out, especially as at least my work and my interests become in supporting artists who are boundary blurring and multidisciplinary, which I think is kind of the way we're all going heading in any way with the internet and with all the ways, different ways of production and consumption. They're being, yeah, interested to track that. Andrew. I just want to follow up on your question because I think you're right and I don't know how to index that because I think all we keep coming into with even these conversations in failure is that we can't define by genre. So how else do you define those communities? Because I think you're totally right. So how would a future study create those associations between communities and where they make work so that it isn't just about space but it's about space and its relationship to let's say self-selecting communities. What are those criteria that we need to be capturing so we can understand how space is used by the people, not just how space exists? Thank you for that, Andrew, with respect to digging in deeper to that question of what people do by proximity. Because I wonder if some of that is proximity to other kinds of venues, proximity to other kinds of artists, proximity to bars and cafes so that when you're done with rehearsal, you don't just leave as you're in the middle of nowhere but there are places to go to continue the conversation. Those kind of trying to dig in a little deeper to what people mean by proximity because it may not be exactly like what you were saying. It may not be as kind of rap. It's not the logistics or transportation or subway. It might be some of these softer but really important kind of elements. Then the other thing, we were talking about it before your presentation, these are spaces that are really about, I think oftentimes, although not exclusively, once there's a work in a group of people that are one of the kind of pre-spaces, the spaces, parks, coffee shops, bars. All those other things where actually the initial ideas percolate or when people are writing on their own or things like those lines and where we make room for that, those kinds of encounters. Because those kind of spaces especially in particular kinds of encounters but they're all these encounters that happen before them. And as New Yorker space definitely allows that or in our issues like gentrification and cost some of the reasons that there's a pre-conversation that might lead to different kinds of work simply don't happen and then it just continues. But if you never make contact at the start you're not going to later. Those are just some of the things I was thinking about as well. I think that's great. I think having, it gets much harder to kind of map out obviously, but creative development doesn't just stop when you walk out of the rehearsal room or you walk out of your studio. You are constantly, we're all constantly mulling things over working through things in our brain on the subway, in a cafe. The value of that and the value of living in a community where you are free and feel safe enough to be able to kind of walk down the street and wander and think like that's so important. So how can we kind of, how can these spaces maybe help contribute to those sort of feelings in larger, in that actual neighborhood and actually the map for creative development actually in some ways expands to every single burrow. I just brought this up because I feel like we haven't been talking a lot about these, what matters most to us. To see which I think is a bit of an offshoot from the main focus of this research but I think could be an interesting compliment to it is I would love to see some sort of index of the spaces where work is being made and how long the current creative leaders of those spaces have been at the helm of those spaces and specifically how that affects both the ages of the people making work in those spaces and how long people have been making work that have access to those spaces. I think that's gonna be something especially in the next 10, 20 years as we go through this sort of insane evolution of what is possible to be offered to artists in terms of space resources from the perspective of institutions or organizations, how that starts to affect the work that's being made by the artists that are being supported. That sounds like a whole PhD project, so. I was also thinking about how rapidly this conversation changes also and that that might be a challenge that you guys face. Just looking at the spaces on that previous chart, a lot of them don't, there's a number that don't exist anymore or that have become much less accessible for various reasons in the last several years for Compiler, so that somebody that was gonna look for space today actually wouldn't be able to use that space. And also I think that this notion of proximity and what people value is also changing very rapidly because the locations where artists live in New York has been changing so rapidly in the last several years. And as that changes, the pros and cons of different rehearsal locations also have been shifting quite a lot, especially people are starting to move to New Jersey in much larger numbers, and so rehearsing in Brooklyn is no longer as convenient as it used to be five years ago. And that's definitely changed the way I think about where to send your rehearsals because if you have people coming from New Jersey then a Manhattan location is setting people up a lot more important. I think those are great points. I think that is definitely one of the challenges that I think you and just conducting this very preliminary survey we hit upon. We did ask a question about what space, are there spaces that you use to access that you no longer access? And almost half, if not more than half said, absolutely, yes there are. And then we asked them kind of, can you beam those spaces? Can you tell us why? And that stuff started to get really tricky, which is why we didn't really talk about it here because I had a hard time figuring out how to process it and visualize it to something that I think just proves it needs much more. All those things seem to be considered more quality. The interesting experience recently with Newhouse, it's sort of the community of, we have to have a membership to participate and we do cultural events and there are a lot of things there for some reason. The reason I mentioned this is there was a talk there recently that I really wanted to go to, but I'm not a member. And I had never even really thought about applying, but if you pay for membership and you have to have certain people that you're referring to be a member. And it just seemed to me that they had access. It's just a strange commensurate. I was sort of sitting in the coffee area listening to people talking to each other and it was really more commercial arts than I was hearing. It wasn't creative people who were activists or, and that seems to be having access to these higher end speakers who are willing to come and do talks for them. And I just wonder if this is gonna be a bigger issue as the current political climate continues. You know, how can we talk about, like anticipating the possibility of that happening where activists might be closed or people talking about difficult subjects might get closed out of opportunities even as far as rehearsal spaces or presentation spaces. What can we do as a group to protect ourselves? Yeah, I think you hit on the fact that, you know, this survey does only survey prelude artists. So we're all, it's a particular kind of work being developed, it's a particular process that people are using, and more or less, it's certainly not meant to be a comprehensive look at how all artistic activity or even how all performance or time-based work is made. And I think, yeah, there are, maybe if you were to look at that, there are maybe a lot of resources that we just don't, that people don't have access to for different reasons, like the ones you're mentioning. But I'm wondering if it's going to become, if it's gonna even narrow down more. But if that's the reason why some of these spaces are no longer exist, because they're, real estate definitely plays a role. There's something funny about the network that is almost behind a lot of those organizations that are at least have a big, like they're showing a lot more to them, and the network of property managers and real estate developers and other sort of partners that make the space actually possible for the organization to then figure out how to be up to the artist. And I think a lot about that, I don't know what the research is, that's to me where I feel like this, the prize is like sort of when those relationships can exist for longer than one year, and when those relationships actually feel like mutually beneficial. And I don't know what the research is, but there's something, there's gotta be something about the value of creative work happening in non-art spaces that plays into the future, because as spaces are turned into convenience, can we not still work in them? I mean, maybe, I don't know, I feel a lot about that. And I get out of the city and that becomes this dream-like scenario where suddenly huge town offices are available, just like you're like, is it okay? And then I'm like, yeah, sure, it's okay. And that's it. You know, these conversations that take years, I don't know, I don't know what to say, but they take years, I know for you guys to develop, and then they don't even work that well sometimes. And anyway, I don't know if I'm a real point, I don't know, but what you said just really made me think that this would be a really interesting project to also immerge in a number of other different-being-sized cities, cities that have a more emerging, I mean, I would like the Pittsburgh, for example, in that category, and to see the way in which people would answer this differently and then, and to see how that really impacts the kind of work that that gets produced, you know, to see the way in which the space, you know, to go back to something that is that, how does the space, like, that our work isn't dictating what space that we have, but the space that we can find dictates the work that we produce. And to really look at it on a much larger scale, and also to kind of look at it over a course of years, like it would be interesting to look right now in Pittsburgh and then do it in five years and 10 years and see how did it shift? I'd like to do this kind of in five years and to say, okay, how did it shift? How did that Google app change or something like those things? So, one more? Yes, I mean, I think that it's sort of a little bit about what I was getting earlier too, that we just don't have together to do that in a way that real estate and finance do. And I think also an interesting thing about the proof responded that there's so few inexperienced people that participate in the organization of this industry because there was another study that was done by the Brooklyn Commune Project a couple of years ago that showed the absolute impractical dreamer nature of most graduates that I think it was more than half of them responded to the survey that they fully expected that 100% of their salary to pay for their lives would come from their art making within five to 10 years. And then if you ask, and then the same survey that Google had to be made to work for five to 10 years, it was sort of 4% where they didn't even have to survive. So, people don't understand that that's part of the way an industry survives and thrives, especially in this city where it is very difficult to do something like this. Because we exist in the vortex of real estate and finance which study themselves intricately like this and don't have a big problem getting comprehensive data sets because there's the Better Business Bureau and 900 other organizations whose explicit purpose is to do that so that they can continue to make more and more and more and more and more money. So long as we're this ship that's stuck in their sale on the runway capitalist money train, we're not really gonna be able to do studies like that. And I don't know what point we stop together and maybe we produce a little bit less and spend some time figuring this stuff out so that in the long run it's better for everybody. It's not how we're trained as people, unfortunately. But I think that that's important. I look to the arts sector to do that. I was hoping the cultural plan was going to help us do that a little bit in a way that it did not really. But I wonder if there is a way that somebody can get some funding to start thinking about 10 and 25 year arcs and narratives in this world and in our industry. Because right now we're just unable to even understand ourselves to figure out what to do about anything. And I think that's a big part of our problem. How do we navigate being an industry's around the ring in the wake of large industries in this big city, which is why it would be interesting to do it in smaller cities. You get more comprehensive response. Maybe you get a clearer understanding of what needs to be happening in a larger city like here in Chicago. That's great. I think also it makes me think that our resourcefulness of creativity as artists sometimes works against us in this. We're just gonna make it happen. We're gonna make the work as we need to make the work. So we're gonna find the loopholes. We're gonna find the nooks and crannies. We're gonna make it happen. Because that I think for us is kind of easier than to kind of put pause on things and say, can we look at this globally? Research behind it. Force others who are outside of our, just like two steps outside of our field or are to actually look and listen to us and see the kind of data packs that we're having and what our needs are. So thank you all so very much. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope this was interesting and somehow fuels your moving through these networks. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Danielle. Hi, I'm Jose. I'm one of the associate researchers for Prelude. We're gonna change over now into Jill's talk. If you'd like to have a step outside where we set up the space, it will be about two minutes.