 This week on the anxious truth. We're revisiting an old topic and metaphobia. That's the fear of vomiting or being sick to your stomach I know this is really important to a lot of you. I know that even hearing the word to be triggering but hang in there We're gonna do the best we can to be gentle with you. Let's get going Hello everybody, welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast episode number 211 recorded on May 31st 2022 and I think you're gonna hear this in the first week of June So if you are new to the podcast, I am Drew Linsalata creator and host of the anxious truth This is the podcast that focuses on all things anxiety anxiety disorders and recovery So if you're dealing with problems like panic disorder panic attacks agoraphobia health anxiety in the case of today's episode Emetaphobia, this is the place for you. I'm glad that you're here. Welcome. Of course, if you are a returning listener or viewer Welcome back. Always happy to see you here. So today We're going to cover the topic of emetaphobia Emetaphobia is a specific phobia that focuses on the fear of vomiting being sick to your stomach being nauseous That might be you or seeing somebody else being around other people that are having that problem it is a big problem for a fairly large portion of our community and in my opinion in many cases it is the underlying driver behind panic disorder and agoraphobia for some of you now I know before we get started on the discussion that even the thought that you might we might talk about this You might be afraid to listen to the rest of this podcast episode because you're afraid of being triggered But I promise it's not super graphic. We try to be really careful with that And it's a feel-good story It's a recovery story And I think if you're looking for some hope and the fact that you can get better Even though you're convinced that emetaphobia is the worst thing in the world This episode can help you so try to hang in there if possible Before we get on because I was joined by Holly in this one. Holly came back on the podcast She's been on the podcast many times. She's Holly and I did the Claire week series together a couple years ago She's one of the admins in my Facebook group She was gracious enough to come on and talk about her experience with emetaphobia because she was emetaphobic As far back as she could remember even as a kid, but she's not anymore. That's why I say this is a feel-good story So it's a great discussion. Holly really talks about sort of the mental shift that help her get around it We kind of weave the exposure thing into it. So it's a good conversation But before we get into the interview, I just need to remind you that the anxious truth is more than just this podcast episode There are three really good books on anxiety and anxiety recovery that I've written that have helped thousands of people You can find those on my website at the anxious truth comm there right there My morning podcast and newsletter, which is called the anxious morning. That's free That's also out right there on the anxious truth comm and if you are finding the podcast or my work Specifically helpful if you want to find a way to help it remain free of sponsorships and ads because I am approached every week Like people waving money at me. They want to get to you Ways that you can help keep this the work Sponsorship and ad free can be found at the anxious truth comm slash support It is never required, but it's always appreciated when you do that. So thank you very much All right, let's get on to it. Holly and I spoke for about 25 minutes Afterwards, I will come back and wrap this up I will give you some resources that hopefully will be useful to you and I hope this is helpful I hope that you find some inspiration some encouragement in this. Let's go All right, we're back. Hey house. What up? Good to see you. Hey. Yeah. Nice to see you, too It's been a minute or so since you're on the podcast I think it's literally been a couple of years or something. I think so too the last time I think we did was your the benzo which are all things which was great It was a really good episode. Yeah, I'll link that one if you go to the anxious truth that comes to 11 I'll link the episode that Holly and I did where you were gracious enough to talk about your benzodiazepine experience But today we're gonna talk about a metaphobia because as it turns out you live that too Yes, I was busy in my whole anxiety career But I will say that for me the metaphobia Was probably the biggest thing and it was very much at the under a sort of a sort of it was underneath everything as well You know, it's yeah, and it was the thing that I can remember having as long as I have a memory It was like from childhood as well. So yeah, it was it was always So there's always some You know, there's really no definitive answers to what causes a metaphobia a lot of people will a lot of experts say well Yeah, it was a you know, a really negative experience with vomiting at some point for those of you You know what there's going to be an intro so I'm not going to explain it doesn't matter. Uh, yeah, but um Can you remember what is there was there a specific thing just out of curiosity? It ultimately didn't matter In the way you get over it, but can you remember a specific incident that kind of triggered it? Well, it's like from being a small child. I just remember And I think if you can remember certain things from being a very young child they're probably things that have stuck with you so I remember being at like a A friend's birthday party when we were like six or something and like A girl was like sick at the table So all over the table and and it was just like, you know Shocking and and all that just I remember like hearing the sort of tone of the adults. Oh, Jenny's been sick and it was just so sort of Horrible and and it felt like it was shameful. It wasn't obviously it isn't you know, like she's a little six year old Kid that had eaten too much cake and stuff, but like it's just It happened and I remember just being utterly like sort of freaked out and Disgusted and I felt like shame for her, you know and just like oh my god That's like the worst thing that could happen sort of thing. So I can remember like bits like that and I was always very scared of it, you know Happening and stuff and then yeah and and I mean do you want me to like I had my sort of big experience with it was when I was 10 or 11 11 And my parents had a boat. Yeah, my parents bought a sailing yacht and took a sailing on the North Sea The bit between England and Norway Um, a really rough sea and we were on the boat and there was a one particular trip where it was 14 hours We'd left on the last tide couldn't get back in and we we had a false weather report We thought it was going to be flat and calm like it was the day before and it was like, you know You look in sort of at the top of the mast for the next wave Come in it was horrendously scary and my parents were very new there were novices to it, you know and So they were kind of, you know, there was a lot of Like genuine anxiety for a very good reason on board. It was just me my sister and my parents and my mum was So seasick like so seasick and I remember I was clipped on Like for safety for my life I was clipped on to the cockpit with my life jacket on and it was freezing man I had like big jumpers and coats and stuff And my mum was just sitting next to me like repeatedly throwing up, you know, and I was already kind of I didn't know the word and that's a big bit, you know I was already very sort of frightened of that and I knew I had 14 hours of this boat trip and there was nothing I could do about it And I remember my mum later admitted to us that she said She was so seasick that she'd actually wished that the boat would just sink and we would drown because then it would be over like Such a horrific sort of so she was going through hell, you know, she was because seasickness can be kind of awful, you know I'm sure. Yeah, and terrified at the same time. It's genuinely dangerous Because you were in a genuinely terrifying situation So that was my, you know, and that was the sort of trigger. It was almost like a ptsd thing for my whole Kind of disorder and everything. Sorry. It feels like a bit of a therapy session No, no, no That makes sense though because a lot of people, you know, there's that whole I've got to find out what triggered it And that's very very common. There was some really negative association with being nauseous or vomiting And yeah, a lot of people would probably call that even a traumatic experience Yes, you know, the whole family almost dies in a rough sea and your mother is constantly sick. So I get it Why wouldn't you end up? Surrounded by fear from my parents, you know a very sort of age where you think your parents know what they're doing and you know Like realizing like they don't know what they're doing. Dad has no idea Yeah, so I mean you could see where that would make sense. You could glue that that fear of vomiting or vomiting to that Terrible situation. It makes perfect sense. So Yeah, we talked about a metaphobe and you and I have talked about this Holly's one of the admins in my facebook group and we've been friends for years now So we talked about the a metaphobia thing and I remember at one point And if there's anything you ever want me to edit out of this, just tell me and I'll do that But um, you know, we were talking about a metaphobe with other people in the group and and I think you got a little angry with me With like no way. It's not exposure. I can't I would have freaked out if anybody had ever told me to do exposure But that's not the way you do it and and I know I know you felt a little bit Dismissed by me and we had a good conversation about it. We worked it out But it started all of this which is really good. There was so much good came out of that conversation. Yeah, I just For me if if I had, you know Rocked up in the group with the a metaphobia and was told that the only way to get over the Metaphobia was to sit and watch videos of people throwing up, you know Even incrementally or gradually I would have just said like well clearly you have no idea because that's just not possible like I would have just run a mile like there's no way I would have Put myself into that situation, you know, I just but it's fine. I'll just carry on avoiding it and you know Staying in for three months in the winter when there's a sickness bug going around. That's fine I'll just see that instead, you know, I think so many people watching and listening right now Can actually a hundred percent relate to what you're saying because I say this all the time Metaphobes are the hardest that I mean hard. I'm not picking on you guys. I love you guys But the most difficult not to crack is the a metaphobia who says no, then I'll just live like this the rest of my life That's fine But as it turns out as we go through this conversation that you guys will see like sit tight stick with us here Because in the end we wound up in the same place. Yeah Just with some different paths So doing exposures and watching people vomit and listening to the sounds and the spells and all of those things Which are typical when you treat a metaphobia therapy was not what you did What what was it that started to change this from this is the worst thing that could possibly happen to a human being And I must never allow it And I want to get back to the idea when you said that was sort of the underlying driver Often it is very important. Yeah, but what was the change? What started to change for you? It was super gradual and to be honest. It was kind of by accident So I was working more on my um panic disorder because that was the most sort of crippling thing that was, you know A panic attack like multiple times a day every day, you know, it's kind of Where's Flynn, you know after 22 years of it? Yeah, so I decided finally like god, you know I hadn't really read that much up on it. I just I thought that had been you know me So I was doing the work on the I discovered, you know, this whole thing about accepting and surrendering and oh And I stopped taking the valium. So I you know changed started changing my reaction to To the panic into the anxiety and so in doing that a few things sort of happened One was that I think I got really good at recognizing What was anxiety at sort of being able to see Anxiety attach itself to various symptoms or to various sensations or even thoughts because I would be like Well, yeah, well, I'll I'll get back to that one in a second. So there was that so by So by and by facing the fear of like, you know a panic attack being right there and practicing sort of, you know Like looking at it and and being okay with it and not trying to just run away from it It It enabled me to kind of Sounds really stupid to say but it enabled me to to look at anxiety and and recognize it, you know and so when I started Really thinking about What it so and then there's another thing is that I'm married to a sailor right who Goes sailing all the time Deals with people being seasick and you know, like all my worst fears, you know being trapped on a boat being seasick Is Yeah, sure and look who you married crazy You couldn't write that stuff like yeah and so And and another thing you need to know about What I was like is that I kept it very secretive. I was very secretive about my it was like if I Talked about it. It was like admitting it. It was like, I don't know. I thought it gave it More power by saying I'm really scared, you know So I would you know gradually through our relationship. I would Hear map that's my husband talking about someone that got seasick on the boat or you know, like or just even like regular stuff Like being hungover or whatever, you know And people being sick and and I would hear and I would be like totally triggered and sitting there in a sort of, you know Silent panic attack But like my secretiveness of it was almost Was more powerful than my like please stop talking about this of it And so I would kind of have to sit through kind of listen into to conversations about this and when you're with someone for like, you know, a long time Eventually I started to just you know play with saying like I'm actually like a bit Not great at this, you know Like how can you deal with being seasick? Like it's kind of you know, it wouldn't sit well with me You know, like that was a big deal for me to even say it like that to even say to mad to your husband Yeah, sure. He knew I had panic attacks and stuff But to even but it felt like to admit that I was scared of you know, this thing that he would talk so casually about Like it just seemed I don't know kind of dumb, you know, like so I was just secretive about it and then I started playing with just like You know starting to admit like that I found it quite difficult and therefore, you know, I would hear him say I would hear him say, you know, he witnessed people on board that was so seasick Like my mom was, you know, where they honestly wished this is a common thing where some people it affects them so bad They kind of wish that they would just drown. Yeah Yeah And in he says when he gets seasick because he's like everyone gets seasick and I was like really but like you don't get seasick He's like, yeah, of course I do and I was like, what do you do when you're seasick? He's just like I just carry on as normal. I keep eating I keep drinking because I need to send my body a message that everything's okay And I was like, huh That's crazy And and then he was just like, yeah, so then I'll just be like drink and then be sick maybe and then after all day or so It's gone away. I know it was Unfathomable to me that he could be like that that this could happen to him The worst thing in the world could happen to him and he would carry on drinking water and carry on eating and just like Yeah, it was unbelievable. I just couldn't believe it. So I thought he naturally I just thought he was crazy And so But as the time goes on and and then when I started working on my my panic panic stuff and When I started, you know And then also looking at that like you have to send your brain a message that you're okay And you act like you're okay even when you're having a massive panic attack because you sort of send I was like, it's kind of similar to what Matt says because he would say that the people that would suffer really badly were the people that were scared And it was fear. It wasn't the sea sickness It was the fear they would just let and they would just give up and they would just kind of lose control They would just sit there like getting Moved around by the bow instead of being like, okay, I'm here and I'm okay. They would just you know give up And and he said it's and it was because they were so Like scared. It was just like a it was a mental thing. He says it's not a physical thing It's the physical thing that they've been sick and like yeah, it's super unpleasant. We all agree on that Yeah, but he's like it's not, you know, and people and so just mind my mind that people would go on boat trips knowing there's a chance they're going to get sea sick or you know, like And so I started taking all this in and starting just it was like a light on the horizon Burning just saying like maybe it's Look, it's not as bad as you think it is and maybe it's not Maybe that's not crazy. Like maybe my fear of it is what's irrational because other people can also, you know I've got friends and bandmates and they're talking about someone also drinking They were sick into a pint glass and it was hilarious and I'd just be like sat there thinking like this is the most horrendous story I've ever heard and they're laughing about it, you know, and I was like, how is this possible? And it's just started to dawn on me that maybe it was me and that it was I was being Super rational about it. And so from the from the work I was doing with my Panic disorder stuff with the with the panic attacks I faced in the fear and like I said being able to recognize it I used to allow myself to like think I didn't watch a video. I didn't do anything like that But I would think and I'd just be like What is it? That is so terrible. Why is it the worst thing in the world? Like what is it? Is it Being sick is it seeing someone else like what is it and when I really thought about it It's not It wasn't the being sick thing like not pleasant, of course It was the I started to recognize that even thinking about it would send me like into this. Oh my god, like grip the side of the boat like Like you're gonna die, you know, and I started to recognize and I was like, hang on, but that's anxiety. That's not Everyone can't go through that every time they throw up because I mean the world would just fall to this because So there are people being sick right now Probably 10 million people in the world are being sick right now Yeah, you know People are getting drunk every night the risk of knowing they're maybe going to be sick in the morning or whatever Do you know what I mean or in the taxi on the way home? Like, oh, you know, worth it. Totally worth it So it can't it can't be like that for everyone that feeling of like, oh my god and the heart's racing and just like the I always describe it as like a desperation Like if it makes you feel desperately like you have to avoid this and stop it at all costs That's like a clue that it's yeah, it's anxiety, you know And then that came from the other work that you were doing the panic attack work. Yeah, you should Yeah, I know it feels like and I know what that I know what adrenaline feels like in my blood, you know, like It was like and all I had to do was think of it and you and it was and it's going, you know Yeah, and it just it made me realize that it wasn't the mechanics of throwing up or do you know what I mean? Like yeah, yeah was the anxiety and I was already facing the anxiety through the the panic attack stuff. I'm like I'm already facing that I've faced it. I've sat with it I've I've let I woke up in the middle of the night and let a panic attack just Come at me full force. I've already faced like the worst thing that there is Yeah, so I realized that It it wasn't being sick that I was afraid of it was the fear that had attached itself to it And that may be it actually and I think it's important to recognize in this situation I'm not going to put any words in your mind to correct me anytime, but If what I hear when you tell that story is you would have been unwilling and I get that like no way I'm not watching videos. I'm not listening to the sound of people But you because of the shame around it. You didn't want to say anything about it You actually listen to stories you listen to people talk about it You didn't want to do that exposure, but you were exposed to it And over time that that did start to change like all right. Wait a minute here I don't like this those were terrible experiences that I had with them. I don't want to repeat that again Of course, I don't want to be sick But maybe it's not the worst thing that could possibly happen to a human being in recorded history That starts to seep in a little bit Yeah And in the end that really is the way a metaphobia begins to receive like that realization they're like, okay Nobody wants this to happen But I have irrationally turned it into this horrific It must never possibly happen. I can't handle this. I can't handle it. So What what was the the other mechanics of it at this point? Maybe you get sick. Maybe you don't you get pregnant You have a baby. I mean, we know kids get sick all the time. So, you know, how old is misty now? She's five six years old. Yeah. Yeah, okay. So you've been through a bunch of times Yeah, I had it still happen. I'm one of those you get a metaphor I think one of the only things I ever read about a metaphobia is that obviously there's different Some people maybe are sick all the time and still have a metaphobia and I don't know about that but in my own personal experience, I Think I was last sick when I was 14 years old. Yeah, it just doesn't happen Yeah, yeah, but I've been in situations where you know, I had kidney stones and I was like retching and you know, I've been And I've had anxiety that's got so high that I've ended up retching where I'm like, oh my god This is it. This is my world falling apart because if this is gonna happen When I have a panic attack my life is over because I had panic attacks all the time So like that would sometimes because There was always that sort of threat in my panic attacks that like maybe you're gonna lose it so badly Like because I would always think that maybe I'm just gonna like implode or explode or disappear or lose my mind but even Under all of that was like, maybe it's gonna make you sick like and then maybe every time you get a panic attack That's what's gonna happen to you, which would be like just go away from you know That's so important Yeah, that is really so important because a lot of people in this community and people who listen to the podcast and whatnot It does come down to that But but I'm a metaphobic so all of your stuff doesn't count drew like it doesn't I can't do that because I know I won't die. I know I won't go insane. That isn't my fear. My fear is that this will make me vomit And it keeps so many people stuck and they feel like they can never get better But in the end so oh well, you don't have to work on panic attacks. You have to work on your metaphobia Which I'm guessing that are all worked together as everything got better at the same time for you. I'm guessing or Yeah, well, I kind of got better from the the panic attacks and that stuff Not first but like I did and then do you remember when I got pregnant and I had like the mother of all setbacks Yes, really like there was two sit things but one of the things was just like My mom had very bad morning sickness and so did my sister and I was just like, uh, I'm not I thought I was like Huberous like you can't do this is insane. Like you're definitely Not well enough to to do this because if you get super sick like you just I don't know, you know No, I get that and it's so interesting for people listening to it Just you know have the population is women it might get pregnant. And yes, if you're a metaphobic and pregnant, oh boy I remember when you had Yeah, but you know that secrecy thing and that shame thing that you were talking about No, we were already friends at that point and I remember you reaching out and like I don't know the wheels fell off Like I was doing so great. I'm stuck in the house again. You never once mentioned that never Like and I get that because there was that I don't I can't say that part. I'm having panic attacks again Oh, but the part you left out in those conversations was I'm terrified that I might Experience morning sickness and get sick. Yeah So so many people suffer from that they don't want to say that but it is the driver It's the bedrock driver of all of the panic that if I panic I might get sick And so I can't allow panic to happen and therefore it's a terrible cycle. It keeps going So What did it look like then in the end? You know, you get pregnant you go through your pregnancy. Misty is born Like Matt is still out there getting sick and watching people grow up all the time What's what's different now like mechanically like nuts and bolts. What's different in your life now? I Don't get triggered by People being sick like very occasionally I feel the adrenaline kicking a little bit because I'm like, oh god, you know, and it's just a You know from as long as I can remember it's been like my go-to switch, you know But if someone sick or you know, it used to be like if I open facebook and someone was complaining that they had a stomach But I would just like close facebook and be like I can't even look and I would unfollow that person Because I couldn't be there to see any more updates about their stomach I just Oh god. No, I just don't care at all. No, I mean, I don't even I don't get triggered It took a long time for that I would still get that first fear like I think even in a claire weeks episode that we did where that came up Like something about a metaphor came up and it first fear triggered me and I was like, you know I could feel it like, you know rushing through my veins and I and although I was like, I'm not scared of this. This is okay You know, I was still in that stage with it and now it just doesn't even kind of enter my You know, like it just if my dose is sick, I just take care of her. I let her cut luck to me I'm not scared if I catch it like I'm just you know, like Doing just looking after I'm just worried, you know, I want her to feel nice, you know And in the end because it is a terribly unpleasant experience, but not no longer the end of the world in your You know, probably probably more That terrible experience really it's not pleasant, but like I've watched my daughter, you know, if he's sick and she's just like the Done comes back in the room No I don't it's not a problem. I'll just bring me the boldest in case, you know, like it's actually it isn't it just isn't Anywhere near that thing that I held it on this like, you know horrific pedestal to me like Probably the most important part of this conversation. I think right there when you just said it's not that thing Because again the the metaphobic community is very adamant. It's like nope. Nope. You don't understand It is the worst thing that could possibly happen to you anything And your experience of the way you process that tremendous work Like I have tremendous admiration for the fact that you did that Without really like you didn't have a therapist, you know, many of that stuff. It's very helpful. But In the end that mechanism still worked the same way like changing your relationship like, oh, wait I guess this is probably Russia. I think that's what I if mac can handle it They're all those people can handle it. I can probably handle this too. Yeah It was it was the the realization that maybe it's not everyone else just being like so weirdly blasé about it But that it was me that was being super rational So instead of trying to make them understand how awful it was for me because I was never going to do that Like because I was secret right sure sure So instead of trying to be like, no, you don't understand. This is the worst thing I just feel okay And then eventually it was like let me try and come to where they actually I'd rather be where they are Can I think about it like they think about it? That would be great, you know, yeah And so it was that it was realizing that it was me that was had this out of proportion And recognizing what anxiety feels like so it was honestly like a purely cognitive sort of exercise of just like If I really think about it What is it about it that is so terrible like what is it? You know because it could be like what could be it might be like it's the shame of it, which it was a big part of it as well, you know But when you think about like but if you could throw up in secret, is that okay? And it's like, well, no, of course not. It's still not okay. So okay. So what is it? You know, like so I would just take myself through these sort of like mind exercises not even purposefully but just kind of like Is that you know And I sort of came to this conclusion of just like it's because of And as soon as I would think about what it you know, think about that situation I would feel the adrenaline. I would feel that desperation I would feel the sort of like heart racing and I've got wait a minute. That's anxiety. That's not being sick That's anxiety. Yeah, that's a tremendous work tremendous in the end You know, it's almost purely cognitive in a metaphobia It kind of is because even if you do go down the route of watching videos and listening to sounds and there are smells And there are even jelly beans and all kinds of therapeutic tools. Yeah, it sounds horrible I would agree. It sounds very unpleasant But you know, even when you do that a metaphobia is difficult because ethically you can't and you can't make somebody bomb it to Expose people will always say I can't recover because I can't expose myself to that that like you kind of panic attack Which is true But holly is a great illustration of how that mechanism works Even without the direct experience of oh, I got sick now some of the metaphobes actually do overcome it because they do get sick Yes, I've heard they don't have they don't have a choice like I got you know I got pregnant and I was sick every morning for three weeks and lives and wasn't a metaphobic anymore because I Yeah, yeah, and discovered which also would sound terrifying, you know Because you think so the only way I can get over this is to be sick so many times that I don't care anymore Like I mean that's just that would seem no that's run a mile stuff So it's horrible, right exactly and it must be a terribly unpleasant experience. I can always acknowledge that but it's amazing how that works Yeah, I have like seriously fully not being sickative I do not have a metaphobia anymore and I had it hardcore Very long time and I don't anymore and I haven't thrown up and I haven't like I haven't You know, I've been in situations where other people are sick, but I was always I was that was happening to me before as well, you know, like it's not like I've never seen someone throw up before So it just it all changed because of I mean mostly because of the the panic work that I did about Learning to let the anxiety come and let it sort of you know and not fight it That was such a major part because it let me Look at it and it you know, it's like the Wizard of Oz thing, you know, it's Yeah, seems like it's big scary thing and you pull the curtain. It's just this little old man You know pulling some levers, you know, it really was that so It was just like, oh wait a minute. That's that anxiety thing again, isn't it? You know, I mean it worked for lots of things, you know, like but the metaphobia was the massive thing But I just started being able to apply it to so many things in my life Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I so appreciate you sharing this and I'm sure people watching will appreciate it as well And I'm sure many of you will think well, that's great at work for her, but it can't possibly work for me This is you know, and we always have to go. It's like you have the right to choose the life you want Yeah, you don't have to do exposure. You don't have to get better You can choose just trying not to be sick for the rest of like that. So that would be okay You know, but it is possible people do recover from a metaphobia. So it can be definitely and I just want to say It wasn't like a a click like an instant like me telling you you're hearing this information now It's not like you're gonna be like, oh, yeah, okay, and now you're fine like it really was like even like in Just be like just let it be something that like just tweaks something in the back of your mind and niggles at you a little bit Like remember that thing what Holly said about, you know, maybe it was Maybe it's not as bad as you think it is Maybe if you can learn to recognize the anxiety attaching itself To that symptom because it could have attached itself to your heart or to Your breathing or you know to anything whatever like it It it Isn't being sick. It's it's the the anxiety that has attached to her The reaction to it and I think I'll only add one more thing before we wrap up. I think which is Well, maybe it's maybe it's not the worst thing in the world is a tremendous realization To start to let it like I'm gonna let reality weigh in here a little bit and recognize my irrationality, which is great But even if it isn't the worst thing in the world the most important Conclusion is but even if it is as bad as I think it is I can handle that Yeah, I can handle that that's so important because at the root of almost all of these things is and I won't be able to handle it Nobody can ever really fully define what can't handle is but yeah Everything you handle everything in your life even when it feels shitty Yeah, like I was I was just saying it then like oh and then I was scared that I would be sick every time I had a panic attack and and then and then I couldn't finish it because I didn't know what the end of that was Yeah And then I don't know right right, which is such a powerful tool. So I appreciate you I'll say thank you for talking about this openly. I know that it was a sore spot for you for a long time And I appreciate what you are now with it. So Thanks. Yeah, it was a big sore spot on it House, thank you so much. I appreciate it. We'll do it again sometime one day We'll finish our claire week series one day. Yeah, we should see that. Yeah. Misty will be graduating from college. We're like, hey, let's go back to that So for those of you who are in the facebook group holly is there in the facebook group if you want to ask questions I'm sure you could you know show jump in and ask them, which is totally fine Uh, if you're I don't know if you're watching this on youtube or whatever you want to ask questions I can always try to pass them on whatever it is, but I'll be back in a couple minutes I'll wrap it up. I'm going to give you some notes and stuff and that's it. Thanks house Cool. Thank you Okay, we are back in the studio, but this time it really was a change. How about that? That never happens Anyway, thank you so much for holly to holly for coming on and sharing her story Um, especially knowing how secretive she was about it and sort of felt a little shameful about it I think there was a big deal and I really appreciate that you came on to try to offer a little bit of hope To somebody who might be listening and if you are listening and you are dealing with a metaphobia Hopefully holly story give you a little bit of hope and a little bit of encouragement that you can actually get Better. So that's the takeaway today. Yeah, I know it sounds like the worst thing in the world, but I promise it is not So I am going to link on the show notes for this episode, which you'll find at the anxious truth.com slash 211 211 So it's the anxious truth.com slash 211 you're watching on youtube It's right below you on the screen there go there and I will have a couple of useful A metaphobia references all the show notes are here And hopefully there will be things that you might find helpful on top of just the podcast episode So that is it we are wrapping up episode 211 of the anxious truth and you know, it's over because music as always Afterglow by ben drake is the music that you hear at the beginning of the end of every one of these podcast episodes You can find ben in his music at ben drake music.com if you are so inclined you go check him out Tell him I said hello. He's a good dude And I'm going to leave you with asking a favor if you're listening to the podcast on Apple or on spotify or someplace where you can subscribe follow rate review Subscribe follow the podcast leave a five star rating and write a paragraph or two Short review to tell people let you like the podcast because it helps other people find it I appreciate all those of you who have done that. I appreciate all of you. Thank you so much. It really helps And I will be back again next week with another episode. I still don't know what it's going to be But I will be here. I promise you that So I will remind you as I always do to keep moving forward and why because this is the way You