 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Neil Wilkinson a legendary UK based Session drummer to talk about his lessons with the great teacher Max Abrams Neil welcome to the show. Hey, Bart How you doing good to be here? I'm great I'm really excited about this one because I love focusing on the teachers and there's There's a lot of legendary teachers where people may not know about them Like I know Max. I've heard of his name as being a teacher to people like Stewart Copeland and Simon Phillips And obviously he was your teacher but Why don't you just tell us about this this iconic guy go back to the beginning of his You know his life his career and yeah, let us through it. Yeah well to to just to put him in a little perspective. I was at the NAM show in in California, maybe 15 20 years back and I was grabbing a little lunch at a Restaurant nearby and I happened to be sitting at a table next to Joe Morello and I was with my wife and I couldn't help but say hey I've got to say hello to Joe, you know, so I leaned over and I said excuse me mr. Morello I you know just like to say Hello, and I'm a big fan and and he was very nice. He you know, he was He just was very nice to me and and I said oh by the way I studied for eight years with Max Abrams and he put his knife and fork down again and Extended his hand and he said well now we're friends So that puts it into a little perspective. He just said wow wow. What a teacher, you know, he really so he definitely got some International street cred and respect among the greats, you know, yeah Wow. Yeah, Joe There was a biography episode on here about Joe where I mean, he's a drummer's drummer He's not like a very nice guy, but like he respects hard work and dedication and Real deal teachers like that. So that's that's saying a lot. Yeah, absolutely a max was He was a real taskmaster. You know, he was a real like hardcore You know that I've always said that I think the closest Analogy would be like a Victorian kind of ballet teacher that just would not mince words and would put you through the mincer every single time You went, you know, and it doesn't matter about physical pain or endurance You're just gonna do this and you know, if you're not interested then don't bother showing up next week I'll see you later. You know, it's like it was for an eight-year-old. That's pretty that's pretty hardcore, you know Wow, well, let's back up a little bit. Yeah So what is his era of like, like, do you know when he was born? I've actually looked Online and it's kind of hard to find information about him Yeah, I don't know. Actually, I don't know the exact year I could probably I should probably have googled that just so I'm a little more aware But I certainly know that his heyday of playing was the kind of big band golden era in the Kind of, you know, 30s 40s 50s through London and he was he played in pretty much all the well-known London big bands that were playing and now those guys were the kind of The pop stars of the day literally didn't get any any bigger, you know, because if there was a Radio session or and when it became TV sessions Those guys were the musicians that got to do it because they were the best, you know, yeah And so he was playing with Carol Gibbons and the Savoy orphans at the Savoy Hotel Jack Hilton Let me think Gerardo All these incredible. I mean, they were like the cream of the crop in London, you know and Yeah, so and he told me once I was telling him about About how it is to do a hotel gig now, you know, we've all been there and done the Embarrassing hotel gig, you know, we have to load your gear on the back through the kitchen, you know And he said no no no not in my day He said he said the guy the Porter opened the door for me and said good evening miss Abrams and he said and I was helped him with my equipment and Well, it's you know, that's what I mean. They weren't kind of hired hands these guys They were really a big deal, you know, no and it it comes up in a fair amount of episodes where where you have to put in a perspective that the The hotel was the and I was actually just it's weird I was talking to my wife about it yesterday for some odd reason usually she glazes over when I start talking about Trump history stuff, but but it was like I was telling her no the hotel was like the the hot spot That's where and then I said you get, you know, the gretch broadcaster and they're slinger than radio king absolutely, yeah, but No, it's it's the it's the you know the happening It's kind of cool to think about that people like, you know, you're there with your martini and you're you know, you're at the Ritz and yeah Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean and just the the glamour and I guess the the the kind of movie stars of the day and the All the you know, I guess all the politicians of the day would be at the Savoy in their finery and there's max in the background Just stirring the soup at the back with the brushes, you know, and Yeah, and he and he did you know, he did a lot of cruise shipwork, too, you know and again, you know, like as I say this is way before any kind of Studio career was possible or or a touring career or anything So he had really literally reached the pinnacle of his career, you know, that was it That was as big as you could get so he said there was a radio show here called workers playtime and They you know, obviously needed a band to supply little music. So They hired all the the best musicians of the day. So he was the drummer on that, you know So he I guess he was one of the first call Early session musicians, you know, wow, which I mean kind of a That's sort of he laid the groundwork for guys like you. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, well, that's interesting It's so neat to to think of the differences in In studios and recordings and a lot of these recordings would be made and I Know in America, I'm sure it's the same there like you were saying the radio would broadcast from these hotels So, okay, so he's he's full on like you said, I mean he has reached The top of the mountain right basically at that point and that's probably what like the 50s. I mean, I would imagine It probably corresponds with like Rock and roll in this because the 60s things changed, right obviously, but And in God, I always bring up the the kind of like, you know in that 40s era Things were different. Obviously for you guys, I've had some British episodes on where there's some British Jeff Nichols has been on Oh, great. Yeah in the 40s London was bombed. So Things had to be different then for all these guys. Yeah, but actually to some degree. I think There was that kind of You know like to hell with this that we're just gonna the gig goes on, you know, like You know movie theater stayed open and I think in the hotel bands would just be playing the air, right the air raid sirens would be sounding and And these You can imagine chandeliers being shaken and you know and and max still just Tapping away at the background there, you know Different world, you know, that's like a movie or something. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And actually Talking about him sitting at the back there and what you were saying about early recordings, you know, I mean I have a couple of Kind of Compilation records with a few max Abrams tracks on it and you can barely hear him playing unless there's like a little two-bar break Where he's playing, you know, you can just hear this kind of very polite Timekeeping, you know, and then there might be a little kind of syncopated fill here and there But it's I think there was certainly no mics on the kit. I'm pretty sure it's just leaking into Maybe one or two mics for the whole orchestra, you know that I'm always and you know, I keep Kind of shooting myself in the foot because I say this and then I actually have to do it but I want to do an episode on Early recording techniques where you look at, you know, a live performance on a stage with like Duke Alley and Ten or something and it's like there's one mic. Yeah, absolutely It's position of the musicians. It's It's okay drums you be quieter piano. You need to play harder. Yeah, and I think that actually what what you're talking about there is a quite a deep subject that I think musicians were Very aware then of internal balance of how the rhythm section were balanced and how that reacted with the rest of the orchestra and And I have I kind of carry that with me so sometimes, you know, when I get to a Live gig or a TV gig or something and there's like screens around and I'm like, God she's they they don't even know I'm gonna play They just presume I'm gonna be smacking the hell out of the drums and you know and often I'll I'll say can we just try with no screens a couple of times and and Yeah, you know, maybe it doesn't work all the time because a lot of times it's to do with maybe The strings are gonna be near to me and they quite rightly don't want the the kind of bleed into their ears you know, but there was certainly a more awareness of Balance between the instruments and also of course No, it is and things like that, you know So you didn't have a guitar player kind of turning his ear pack onto ten and his amp onto eight and his guitar onto seven And that's my sound, you know, yeah, they were more aware of where they were playing the kind of tunes they were playing I think it was a very interesting Interesting time, you know, yeah and the humidity in the room and right, you know, right you're I mean that affects sound but also your Your drum heads are now. Yeah You know completely lose so and and I keep saying that we'll talk about it later But I should say right now so people know that we're referring to like studio stuff I mean Neil you are you have your your credits are I'm looking on the Gretch website here Like you've played with Van Morrison Paul McCartney Ray Charles Annie Lennox. I mean you've got I mean you've The the movies like Star Wars. I mean, yeah, so you know you what you're talking about when it when it comes to this stuff But we'll talk about that a little bit later. So I'm great All right, so did his career Did he just sort of naturally wind down from being a performer to then being a teacher or how did that transition go? Yeah, I know for sure that it was a conscious Move on his part, you know, I Think he just maybe things were changing and I know also his schooling that he had he was very In very schooled in rudiments and he could his reading was He could read anything, you know, so he was Kind of primed to be the the teacher of the day really so he was constantly getting people say Hey, could I come by for a lesson? Could you show me this? How do you do this? Could you know? and I think he just thought This is crazy. I could just live in Chelsea and And teach, you know, and so he kind of just turn he just sort of shut the door and turn his back on it, you know, and I think he was I Think it was possibly his main calling, you know, because he was really good. He was really good Well, that's very very similar to Joe Morello where Joe performed forever, but he really taught I mean he became obviously as a student of Stone, but then he he was you know teacher and then kind of helped create the modern, you know, the modern Clinics that we have today, but it's very similar where they're these guys may be, you know All of their and Jim Chapin and these guys they're they're they're years of performing really lead up to they're better known You know, I don't know a hundred years later. That's probably too far But but like as teachers than they are performers. Yeah, absolutely for sure and On a little side note here Max There's a there was a guy in England called Bob Armstrong who passed away a couple of years back now Who was a pupil of Max's and he became it was the same story with Bob He was a player for a while around London and then just did the same path, you know Just kind of shut that down opened his studio and just thought that's me now I'm the teacher of I'm the UK teacher, which he was, you know, it was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a noble I mean, it's it's awesome. It's like we're all drummers, you know, you can't I mean, it's it's a it's a probably a more Not safe, but it's like, I mean he was probably getting older And it was becoming more of like if this is a bit easier. They come to me kind of thing, right and max I'm guessing if we're talking about the 50s, I don't know max was maybe in his I Don't know in his 40s or something, you know, he was certainly wasn't an old man by today And it's but maybe I then he just felt like I need to just settle down or something, you know But yeah, he's I think to be honest, he really had the knowledge He really had all that experience the playing experience He knew his rudiments like probably better than anybody else in the UK Having done all the Scottish pipe band thing and You know, I often think about him now With the covid environment that we're in at the moment, you know, it seems like everybody and their dog is Online saying hey hit me up for lessons, you know, and I can hear I can hear max's voice over my shoulder saying well What is he gonna teach you? He was he was so brutal, I mean it was just lethal, you know And so if you weren't if you weren't really pure and knowledgeable, he would call you out, you know, so something I mean, I honestly wished that there was a bit more of his Honesty flying around the internet. It would it would be great. Yeah. Yeah. Well, all right, so So I know how you said did you say you were eight years old when you took lessons with him? Yeah, I I went to max from when I was eight until I was sixteen and it's a really interesting way That I got the link To study with max which was also equally as old school It sounds like we're talking about 200 years ago to me now. It's crazy, you know, we're talking exactly 50 years ago to the day In August August 15th 50 years ago. There's the my first lesson with max Abrams. I was eight years old amazing, so What happened was that summer of 1970 I was with my parents. We were on a holiday, you know, just a little seaside vacation in a town called Margate a little seaside town in Kent and For some unknown reason I'd been playing drums for about a year. My uncle was my first teacher actually and So I've been playing for about a year and I entered this talent competition for some unknown reason because I was very shy So heaven knows what made me do. I don't know. I don't know Anyway, I I guess I did okay, and I won some little kind of cool Like man from uncle kind of briefcase or something, you know, it was very cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was great and then Maybe a little later this guy did this chap appeared at the our table And he said to my dad hey I think your son should have lessons and I know in my dad, you know, like I could imagine him looking him up And down and going oh, yeah Like yeah, and what are you? You know, who are you? What do you want, you know? and He produced his business card and he was from the melody maker. I don't know if you've heard of that, but it was a It was a music weekly magazine Actually, it was more of a newspaper. It was an actual You know big kind of spread Sheet newspaper And in the back were all the contacts for you know bands looking for dramas and Etc etc, you know This chap the the chap from melody maker was a guy called Chris Hayes and He contacted max on my behalf and max agreed to give me six lessons, which Chris Unbelievably paid for oh My god. Yeah, so Chris from melody maker saw your talent show performance. Yeah Yeah, and then he said and then he Contacted max and then he believed in you so much. He paid for your first block of lessons. Yeah. Yeah, exactly You were discovered. Yeah, and it was unbelievable. You know my dad And I have the letters now, you know, and it says to my dad You show up at max's at whatever time on Saturday and then there's a letter from max saying which Train station to get off and all this stuff. Yeah, it's very very cool. That time period you went is super just like It couldn't be better eight to sixteen. I mean that is literally the most like formidable years Yeah, probably in your life. Yeah, absolutely and I have to put it into a little perspective because my uncle was a big band drummer And so he was All the time at home. I was hearing he'd play me, you know, Duke Ellington camp Basie body rich, etc, etc, you know So I It wasn't like I was going home to nothing, you know, I was going home and I had my uncle kind of Kind of keeping me under his wing kind of thing, you know, which was very cool And also my brother was living at home still he was he's 13 years older than me. So You know, I was hearing he was very heavily into Beatles and Motown and the Rolling Stones I was hearing lots and lots of different music So I wasn't left alone between my lessons with max, you know, no, which is a good thing to point out So people aren't like It's almost more of a it would be more of a struggle if you didn't have that I don't think it takes away from it all but it's good to say like yeah, you had support and you had Yeah, yeah, it doesn't end when you leave the lesson room. It takes constant, right and unlike now where you have the the valuable internet and Etc etc and people, you know where you could find some inspiration just by looking online, you know Then you really had to go and look for this stuff, you know Which was yeah, so yeah, it was it was very interesting time, but but then I did start playing gigs not long after that and I guess we'll get into some of max's Approach, but he was pretty hard on reading So by the time I was kind of ten or eleven and I started to do local lit a small gigs, you know And rehearsal big bands that kind of thing. I could already read pretty well, you know, so that was that was great Yeah, so you were eight years old that would have been what 1970 So And I want to hear about his other obviously mega famous students as well But I just like you said so let's talk about him as a teacher. So yeah, you said Me not mean guy, but like like almost sounds like a drill sergeant kind of absolutely. That's exactly. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah Now was he that way was there any was he compassionate at all? Was he nice to an eight-year-old? Well, you know the funny thing is Yeah, I think he was compassionate, but he just didn't He just didn't kind of ease off on the gas pedal, you know, he just kind of was Come on. Do you want this? How badly do you want this? You know, he never wants kind of I mean I do have recollections of him's kind of saying Well done something like that, you know But never overly, you know like now people almost people are like even if you did horrendous on your lesson Your teacher is expected to say. Oh, you're sounding so great. Wonderful, you know Yeah, and he would know no, you're not gonna get that, you know, did you have kids? No, he didn't actually Okay, I'm curious because yeah, and that's interesting point you bring that up because my mom remembers that one time he said Something something about I can't remember the exact context, but he referred to his boys And my mom said oh so you oh you have sons and he said no, no, no I mean my boys my my drummers. I've got to look after my boys, you know, I've got to make sure these guys are you know So that was definitely his focus. It was you know, that's nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay So he would give you what was a tip you said he focused on reading a lot What was a typical lesson like maybe not when you're maybe not your day one eight-year-old lesson, but let's say you were 12 years old, right? You've been there for four years. You're gigging a little bit. What was like a What would it be an hour? Yeah, would be an hour and I'll just touch on the first lesson for only this reason sure please do yeah The first lesson was on the drum set in the top room and then he had a room downstairs Actually, I can't remember but he may have had two other rooms But certainly the drum set was in the top and downstairs were Practice pad drum sets and the only lesson for about the first Three or four years that I had on the drum set was number one and every other lesson after that was on the pads So yeah, it was kind of a right of passage to get back on the drum set, you know Yeah, like he he hooks you with the fun. Yeah Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, it would be he had a very interesting way of working It would be exactly an hour and somebody pointed out to me that I didn't notice this But somebody pointed out to me that his clock was always five minutes fast so So he'd go up time up, you know So pretty pretty hardcore there but in in contrast to that in the Joe Morello episode I learned that they would be like four hour long lessons where they would take Like they would then go to lunch They would then and this is what Steve Fittac who took lessons with him where they became like it was like a friendship and it sounds like it was the exact opposite of Max where, you know, yeah, I mean, I know right or wrong Yeah, I don't actually know anybody who became any of his students who became his friends that would want to go back and hang out I mean, I will learn I'll touch on that later But I did go back and see him when I moved to London and was getting I was doing okay in London and working and I went I was think I was about 25 at the time and I went back to see him, but we can talk about that later. So, yeah, sure typical would be Typically about an hour long. Yeah an hour long And he would have this prearranged thing, you know, the his either his Book would be open on the music stand or some exercises he'd written out or a big band chart and then he had this really great system of He'd always have pre-recorded lessons on a reel-to-reel tape and that might be him Let's say you had a bunch of Paradiddle exercises to go through Well, it would be here like say, I don't know 20 exercises or something he would have it a Real-to-real tape of him playing those exercises So the first maybe five minutes ten minutes. He'd sit you down and he'd say, okay Play me exercise one and you'd play that and then he'd say, okay Have a look at bar 24, you know, and they're oh, oh, yeah, okay And you know, I'd say okay, and then he'd start the reel-to-reel tape and that there would be him talking saying, okay let's start exercise one and Here we go one two and then he would be playing and you'd have to play along with him Wow, it was pretty cool because if you got lost you could kind of hear his sticking where he was and you could pick it up You know, yeah, but interestingly this is what This is where the jury's out on whether this is a good good move or not I actually think it's a great move, but he would leave the room And sometimes like what an easy way to do it. Yeah Yeah, and then so you know sometimes you could hear a guy upstairs or downstairs or whatever He'd go and check on him for a minute probably But the cool thing was you never knew where he was So he yeah, you know the nerve the the nerves were gone a little bit because he wasn't staying standing over your shoulder But the pressure was still on because he could be right outside the door, which is like five feet behind you you know, yeah, so the pressure's still on but Reading in his diaries, which I got years later after he passed away He wasn't outside half the time he would be either would be referenced to him Cleaning the car Or you know, believable sunbathing on the roof for 15 minutes and then he'd come back in he'd probably stand outside the room for five minutes and go Then he'd walk in and say so what's wrong with bar? 24 I thought you yeah, and you'd that would always be the one that you struggled with it's like, oh man He was listening. Oh, yeah It was really troubling, you know So he had this very passive way of teaching, you know that he wouldn't stand over your shoulder and spend the whole hour with you When I take a lesson we all feel that way where where and I'm Everyone who listens to the show knows us where I've since I stopped taking lessons when I was 12 And then just went like straight into, you know playing in bands for a long time and I'm now taking him with Barry James who's become a good friend and he was a student of stone But anyway, if I'm like I'm practicing in the week and I'm nailing it and it's great But then the second I'm like, yeah, okay, Barry here I go I'm like it doesn't it's not as good as when when when the two like you're saying when the teacher's watching you Yeah, that's right. Well, you know, bear in mind if I was eight nine, so well actually For many years my dad or my mom or both of them would would bring me down to London on the train Because I was from Coventry and it was like a hour and hour and 30-minute train ride so You know Max would say okay, so Let's look at what I showed you so From the top exercise one and I would stumble, you know, and my dad can hear my dad saying He could play that yesterday You know and Max would go he had this great mid-Atlantic Glaswegian accent, you know From glad he was from Glasgow be doubted my old little American thing in there, you know, my dad would say No, that's so strange. He could play it yesterday. My Max would say well, he can't play it now I Like man, he doesn't care. It's just so funny like he doesn't care who if he's talking to a parent No care if he's no in fact what while this is on my mind I remember my dad had a very short fuse, you know and The drums were facing the wall in the studio so I'm bearing mind I'm sitting at the kit looking at the wall and I'm probably 10 years old, you know and Max and my dad are getting into this real kind of heavy-duty argument about something, you know and Max I remember Max said okay You can get out now and you can take him with you and I remember my I just remember having my head in my hands like Oh, my dad's gonna hit him This is not gonna end pretty And and my dad just can't my dad just calmly said yeah, I'm leaving he's staying Wow, and I heard the door gently close and I thought that's so cool That was like a life lesson right there, you know, yeah, and I'm sure I'm sure my dad walked out in an absolute fury of red mist You know, yeah, that's right I mean, but that is a life lesson of like I feel like in that scenario like your dad won Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I think it was over something very trivial like You know Max saying what did he get for Christmas and my dad saying oh he got a new drum and Max saying What do you mean a drum? Was it a snare drum Tom Tom a bass drum? What was it? You know, I don't know it was you know and that kicked off and you know something else and before you know it They're gone through the roof, you know It was Interesting dynamic between the two of them, you know, yeah, but all this being said it clearly worked his technique Obviously worked he created some amazing drummers now, but I just I can't that You're right. Where is it good? Is it bad that technique of leaving the room? I would love I mean, I'm sure they're they exist somewhere. I don't know if anyone has them But though I wonder if those tapes of his lessons are out there. Well, I've got Yeah, I have My original reel-to-reel tapes and I'm so I'm so nervous about touching them because it's so old so I'm actually looking into Maybe a sort of a professional company that would maybe Yeah transfer them for me because I don't want I have a reel-to-reel machine, too But I don't want to risk, you know, a 50 year old tape just putting it and having it crumble I don't know whether they need to be kind of baked or yeah, or treated in some way. I don't know I've done that. I've never done real-to-real like, you know, the thinner kind of smaller ones. I have personally Transferred two inch 24 track tape and for people who don't know this is kind of a cool side thing You have to what's called bake the tape where you put it in little it's kind of I mean, it's really like a little Convection oven. I mean, it's it's an oven and it it heats up And you probably know better than me. I mean, I've only done it a few times but it It then releases the like it's not so stiff like if you Then start pulling off the the if you start trying to unravel the tape the magnetic Really the information like the bass drum and the snare will just come off. It'll flake off, right? There you go. That's what I'm trying to avoid. I'm really you know I look at them there at my parents place and I look at them every time I go there and think I've got to do that. I have to do it, you know, you do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because they're personal too He made them specifically to you. These weren't generic ones that he would farm out to people You know, he would he would talk to you. He'd say, okay, Neil Let's look at this one and you know, watch out for this, you know, remember the paradol sticking in bar the bar 11 and You know, the end of that he'd talk about something and there was always a little reference halfway through And he'd say your name, you know, it was amazing That's different than what I originally I because I thought it was like, okay Max puts on he has 10 copies of the same tape. So that's almost like he's putting in more work. Yeah, recording these at home Oh, that's totally different. Yeah, absolutely because in the diary, he refers to it too. He says something like You know, seven till nine p.m. Recorded a You know a technique A rudiment tape for Dave Smith or whoever, you know, yeah, so yeah, he was obviously putting in the work, you know Totally. Yeah. Um, yeah Well, like I said, it got good results. So, um All right, so maybe we so you obviously were a great product Let's talk a little bit about some of his other uh, very, you know, esteemed students. Yeah. Yeah And how did that like, how did he get these guys? I mean, how how did that happen? Well, there were there were a lot of, um, He had a lot of pupils that were that went on to become very successful around like the london scene, you know Uh, who were maybe not household names at all. Maybe not even in england, you know, yeah, but they A lot of his drummers became working pros Onto varying degrees, you know, they might just stand up in like a I don't know what you guys would call it. What what do you call those clubs like a like a top 40 band kind of thing? I mean, oh like a cover band. Yeah, like a cover band in a in a nightclub like a six nights a week kind of gig, you know Um, but you know being able to read anything being able to play they're not going to be able to they're not going to be playing with They're not going to be a first-core studio player, but they're he produced a lot of those kind of musicians those kind of drummers, you know um But then he also there were guys that just went to him for one or two lessons just for a uh, just to get a real like a Like a tune up like an engine tune up or a You know, just where am I? How am I looking? How's my playing? Uh, and then he had the top end guys like um, sima phillips went to him for a while um, stewart copeland a little bit, um I don't know for how long and then Let's see. Oh this um Actually, there was a very famous drummer here called barry morgan Who was a uh, he played on lots and lots of big big records. He was uh Oh, maybe around in the 60s and 70s was his studio time, you know with um him and clem catini were like the kind of uh The american the la equivalent would be like helblane and ol palm. You know those guys Like a wrecking crew days, you know, yeah, uh and barry's, uh barry morgan's son brett Is a really great drummer and um barry just sent into max. He said not you got to have the best, you know, you got to go to max and um You know, he could have easily learned from his dad, you know, um, but uh, he went to max for quite a while Well, it's different if you have a family member teaching you right as a, uh Uh drill, you know, yeah drill sergeant kind of guy. Yeah, absolutely. So, um Yeah, and his um, oh and there's also another guy I should mention who's um Probably not a household name to you guys there, but really highly thought of in the london studio recording scene and he's a tremendous big band drummer a guy called mike smith And uh, he went to max for a many years to maybe about the same time as I did about eight years or so and uh mike Is a completely, uh, I guess this is the uh, what I think of of the mark of a really great teacher Doesn't really put too much of themselves in in you, you know And what do you mean by that? I think I know what you mean, obviously, but just maybe explain that a little bit Yeah, well for instance, um Um You know, and this is probably well definitely going against the grain of our most great teachers are thought of Um max never he didn't touch on technique with me at all I mean not even remotely He didn't talk about up strokes down strokes match grip. That's interesting traditional grip nothing He didn't talk about style. He didn't talk about, um Uh Anything he just talked about what I felt if I if I have to sum it up and I've thought about this before obviously Um, is that I felt like he gave us all like a toolbox of what you need to play that instrument You know, like, um, I'm sure if you weren't making a very good sound he would kind of Yeah, I mean The one thing I do remember he was very very big on dynamics within your Um Rudiments and making them swing, you know Like, uh, I remember playing like, uh, you know paradiddles like And him saying to me, what is that morse code? Man he's full of uh mean one-liners It was just uh Brutal and then he would lean over me and just kind of play this beautiful kind of With a little kind of swing in there, you know this and the dynamic the difference between the low strokes and the high stroke Was like one and ten, you know, it was huge and almost just by Demonstration really I got it. Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. I get it. Okay. Um So, uh, but never any but basically So I think he kind of approached it from look you're gonna need You've got to be able to play single strokes double strokes paradiddles Flams drags And you got to be able to read You know, and he would take me through kind of classical snare drum parts and Cat Basie big band charts, um that he'd transcribed himself note for note um And uh, I felt like there was no You know, there was there was no style involved He didn't say this is how to play bebop or this is how to play Dixie or this is how to play reggae or anything like that, you know, it was just yeah That's how you play The snare drum and the bass drum and hi hat and the and the cymbals. That's it So he's not creating clones of himself. No, no not at all. So what I was going to say was mike smith who had the same Uh amount of tuition probably that I did Probably around the same time I did came out a completely different drummer, you know Mike is very akin to somebody like And I hope he wouldn't mind me saying it because I know he loves him but he loves Of kotler with um, yeah, sinatra. He's got that thing totally down, you know But he's he's also a very contemporary play. I don't want to uh, I don't want to undermine what mike does because he's fabulous But uh, yeah, if you want somebody to nail a big band chart first take with all those like Classic setups and a beautiful sound. Well, that's mike all over, you know Yeah, wow, yeah Now let me ask you because they're obviously the like like you said the household names like the name like your mom knows Is obviously like steward copeland or even down to simon phillips. Um Um Guys like that so they went as adults, right? Uh, were they successful musicians at that point or were they was was little simon phillips, you know 10 years old? Yeah Yeah, he was he was a boy. Okay. Yeah, he was a boy because interestingly max Played in simons dad's big band Simon's dad was called sid phillips and uh, I think he played clarinet if I remember rightly And uh, max was the drummer in uh, sid phillips band. So hence simon goes to uh, So max for a few lessons to You know get get his uh, his stuff together, you know, gotcha. So it was just a few Just a few lessons. I think so but also, uh, but I think he probably got his reading together with max and um You know simon was a big deal by the time but he simon went through the uh, national youth jazz orchestra So, uh, his reading was pretty good And by the time he was uh 15 or 16 he was majorly getting big Big session calls in london, you know Gotcha. Yeah, that's pretty awesome. You know, so I may I felt certainly like uh, like I'd passed it You know, I was 19 when I first started doing my sessions in london, you know, and I was like man I'm so far behind simon, you know I mean 19, you know, you're still like a kid. You know, it's crazy Yeah, and then so stewart copeland though was he Older because I I guess I just think of like sometimes you equate things to like neil pierre going to like Uh freddy gruber and he's older and he's you know an already famous musician was was stewart Not the kid was he just still a younger guy too. Yeah, I think they both those guys went to him as I did before they became Who they who we know the mess, you know, it wasn't like yeah, I know what you mean with neil Yeah, going back and kind of going I need to get my I don't know my let my traditional grip together or my jazz chops together or whatever, you know Um, yeah, they just went for a proper proper lessons, you know Oh, uh, yeah the uh one of the big guys that uh, I think have you heard of jack panel? Yes, yeah jack was a pupil of maxis and jack of course was probably better known as a Arranger conductor because he he had his own big band and orchestras that would do all the big tv shows through the 60s You know, you would always see You know, uh, like a variety tv show featuring the jack panel orchestra and there they'd be, you know, like a You know 30 piece orchestra on stage and jack will have done the arrangements and And would be conducting so but he was a really great drummer too, you know Yeah, I know I've shared some videos of him online. Yeah. Yeah on social media, but um Wow, okay, so then As we get further into it What happened towards I mean did did he teach until the day he died or what happened towards the end of us, you know Yeah, well actually the short answer is yes But uh, the long answer is that he he did but he kind of um, I think he kind of eased off the gas at that point You know, he he decided to move out of london moved down to uh Eastbourne on the south coast and he got himself a little apartment near the seafront and uh, and had a I guess he was You know, most people will call it retirement, but I think he was still having about Two or three students a day, you know Oh But but I think yeah, but I think he was kind of saying yeah, yeah, you'll be fine to anybody Yeah, and uh So I think it wasn't like he was uh, he wasn't that same Uh guy that would uh hit you around the back of the head for a right left instead of a right right, you know Yeah Now what how old was he when he passed away? What year did he uh, yeah, that was 90 mid 90s I think 94 something like that. Yeah, and um, I went to his funeral and um Oh, I should mention my good friend mark Fletcher who we were from the same town He became the house drummer at ronnie scott's for quite a long time He also he also studied with max for a for a while and um We both went to max's funeral and uh We went back to his apartment afterwards and everything was there everything So we said well, what's happening with all this? Stuff, you know, and uh, they they weren't sure so we were worried it was going to be uh, just kind of dumped Yeah, and there was a guy there said look just take if there's something you want just take it so um I took some 78 uh, he has these beautiful um They're 78 rpm records of his snare drum technique With a little kind of booklet, you know Yeah So I have those and I took his diaries 10 years of his diaries, but actually the um I I eventually found out that they didn't trash a lot of it It went to be archived at leads college of music in the north of england That's great. You you were right to do that though because if again, he doesn't have like Much of a family. I'm assuming as an older guy that didn't have kids or anything Right, right. You could think it being just you know, let's throw it away, but yeah. Oh, actually, you know what now we get to the um his funeral service Probably his most famous pupil It's not even a drummer. His most famous pupil is uh, jim marshal from marshal amps Yeah, whoa, and he um He uh, said a beautiful thing at max's uh funeral He said, uh If it wasn't for max abrams, there wouldn't be any marshal amplifiers He said because I wouldn't have been in the business at all So that's a kind of a weird connection, but um That was very interesting, you know, I didn't know jim marshal was a drummer Yeah, apparently started out as a drummer and went to max and then for whatever reason fell into I don't know if he played guitar, but he certainly got into uh I guess he was here in guitar players say oh man, these amps are terrible. We need something More probably louder. I'm guessing You know, yeah, maybe he was like wow, this guy's being really mean to me. I'm gonna switch instruments There you go. So uh, yeah, that that was great. Um Here in jim talk about max and he was very he had a very fond memory of max, you know Yeah, yeah, wow that's so cool. I mean it sounds like It's sometimes tough love can be uh a good thing and obviously produces great drummers and not I don't want to say coddling but saying yeah, you're sounding good. Okay. Oh, you didn't practice. That's okay because I've I've taught and and I that was me. I would say oh, it's all right, you know I know and and um I Honestly, if I'm honest, I don't think it is a good idea to say that I think you need a little um You know, I don't think you need to maybe go as far as max would but But I think a little just the honesty is is the best policy, you know, I think that's and and actually, um Although he dished out the tough love as you called it, um When I eventually went back to uh Kind of with humble pie. I went back to see him in my mid 20s Uh, we went for tea at a local hotel in eastbourne and he had a briefcase with him And uh when he opened it when we sat down for tea He had all this stuff about me. He'd kept all these like newspaper cuttings and stuff from melody maker And all my just things that he taught me and it was like this whole kind of like Wow, I was I was just blown away man, yeah, so there was obviously a um You know, there was a sort of uh A love there, but uh, I guess he he didn't feel comfortable showing it or whatever. You know, yeah, you're you were one of his boys Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, and uh, he I've got it somewhere. He pulled this napkin from the uh table And wrote out this little thing Like a little reading exercise and he just turned it right he said play that Yeah And it was just it wasn't it wasn't any kind of drum thing. It was just a rhythm, you know And it was in cut common. So pretty hard to read at quick tempo, you know, yeah And he said okay. Yeah, and then he wrote something else and it was exactly the same rhythm But in four four, you know And he went okay, and then he's okay, and then he wrote the same rhythm But in three four so went over the bar line. I was okay. I'm you know, you're not catching me out He's like, oh, okay, okay You can't not test you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool though. Yeah okay, so um I want to talk about we're gonna talk about uh drum hangs which is something really cool you're working on but first I want to talk about um Your career and just give us kind of the overview here. I mean Whoa, you have like, I mean paul mccartney ray charles like What? Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing. You've done some really cool stuff. You know, um I did I found a letter I think it was from max abrams and I was about 13 or 14 or 15 around that that time maybe closer to the end about 15 I guess and max said Said that he was kind of training me up Uh grooming me to be a session musician And he wrote that to my dad and I remember thinking what does that mean, you know But I guess he saw that I had some kind of ability to uh play um To be able to read and to be able to kind of handle Maybe turn the stress on purposely so that when you get to uh stressful Studio situation that you can just go oh, this is easy because max max abrams isn't here, you know He's not quote-unquote listening outside of the door. Yeah, right exactly. So um, so Basically, he'd given me though. I could read I could play Any style I wanted that I so chose but it just happened that I I was very into Motown I was very into Beatles and you know, and I discovered all the great Uh kind of studio players, you know, like jim gordon pacaro gad Purdy all those, you know that great 70s time. I'd found all these guys um, so My first gig was a big band gig down on the isle of white Like a 10-piece band or something that was pretty cool. You know 17 Reading it was like six six five or six nights a week And off the back of that I went on to the qe2 The cruise liner, you know, mm-hmm Did that for a year And there were lots of london-based musicians on that ship and they all said to me You have to move to london So, uh, yeah, I thought okay, maybe I'll I'll see what happens, you know, and uh yeah, so, uh it was uh I was working pretty quickly, but it was very uh, like everything. It's a it's a all a process and it was very Very gradual, you know, which was just what I needed, you know, so kind of uh Be taken regular steps, but kind of small ones, you know But a really big one for me was There were two great musicians in london called Jim mullen a guitar player And dick morrissey tenor sax player and those guys had lived in new york for quite a long time And when stuff, you know with a gad, etc. Richard tea All those Amazing new york guys when they when they went up to japan Uh, Jim mullen and dick morrissey put the band together to sub for them at mckels in new york So their band was steve jordan Um cliff carter all these great new york players, you know And uh by the late 70s, they'd moved back to london. So by the time I moved into london about 81 Um when I was 19, uh, I got that gig with them and that was a very r&b groove-based band, you know So I kind of landed on my feet. I couldn't believe it, you know, and they were the great thing about that was they were working At least three nights a week usually four So it was like I was able to make a living, you know at 19 and doing these great gigs and You know words got out that I could read pretty well and uh And That that was it. I was playing I started doing a lot of little jingles and You know and and still do, you know things like that tv adverts radio, whatever Um, but that was really great, you know that I was into playing Lots of different styles. I mean, I loved playing big band as much as I loved the r&b Groove thing, you know, so um, yeah I was ripe for the picking. I guess, you know Yeah, yeah, now what were the gigs like let's say the obviously, you know You said you grew up loving the Beatles like what was your experience like playing with uh, paul mccartney? Yeah, that was great. I did two things with him. Um, one is a, uh It's on his album called oh shoot. What's it called? flowers in the dirt And it's a very beaty thing to do but he did this, uh um He had two tracks that he wanted to link together with a Kind of a big band section uh And he had a an american arranger called richard niles arrange a little piece to go uh To to link the two tunes, you know um, so we went in and uh they put the parts out and uh, we uh He wasn't there at the time mccartney wasn't there and the engineer said, okay, let's run it down and i'll um I'll take it anyway and we'll have a listen, you know, so we hadn't played it at all So, uh, we ran it down and uh richard went into the control room richard niles. Well, I think we all did and he said Wow, that's exactly what I want exactly like that Wow, he said he said i'll tell you what let's just leave it like that You know until paul gets here and so Half an hour later paul comes in and he's like hey, good morning everybody. How's it going? You know and uh, how's it going? You know and richard said Well, I think we've done it And he says oh, well, let me have a listen So, uh, he had a listen. He said yeah, I like it sounds great. He said but no one gets to leave And he and we were like oh what and he said I haven't heard you guys play it So we we had to go back out in the room And we played it live just for him and they didn't record it and he said okay now you can leave Man he's just like he's a real deal. That's just very uh, it was so great You know and I got to hang out with him a little bit that day. Um, and then he called me back, which was really nice to do a I've never done his band at all But he I did get to do a great single. I just hope it was released um But I just hope it gets to be heard one day because um It was a uh, it was linda mccartney's 45th uh birthday So of course the he made a 45 single for her Of a tune called linda an old uh standard called linda a double a side with two different versions one a big band and one like a kind of cuban version cool, yeah And uh, he it's like a box of 10 singles and he at the end of that session He'd had them pressed and by the time she got there It was wrapped in ribbon and he presented it to her as a birthday present and I was we were like, oh my god This is unbelievable, you know And uh at the end of that session I was sitting in the canteen It was great. Uh, I was sitting on my own waiting for a cab and uh They came over and sat on my table and said, uh, oh do you mind if we join you and I said no Yeah, please do and he said, uh, I'm starving, you know, he said do you want something to eat? I said, yeah, I'm I'm starving too. And he said, uh, let's get some there's a Very Liverpool Bit of slang for a sandwich is called a butty He said, uh, what about cheese butties? Do you fancy cheese butty? You know and I said, yeah, that'd be great. So he called the guy over He said hey three cheese butties and tea please, you know, and that was it and I thought Oh my god, this is amazing. That's it. I can retire right now, you know Yeah That is so cool But I do have a cassette copy of that, but I I've never heard the actual I wish I could have got my hands on one of those 10 Singles, but hopefully it'll be available at some point, you know, yeah, I'd love to hear that Wow sneak out onto the internet somehow, you know, that'd be great. Oh man before we Move forward here. I have to ask too like, um Star Wars return to the Jedi. Ah, yeah. Yeah famously shot in London, which was like In my little knowledge about it was like riddled with problems with shooting and people not getting along and all that Which is really kind of an interesting Side thing. What was your role in that? Ah, yeah. Well, um in the I don't know exactly what year It was 90 something they when they did the remastered versions They decided to add Uh, I wish my boys were here because they could tell me exactly what they added But um, they added little characters. I think here and there but in in return of the Jedi they added a whole scene which was um like a nightclub scene and uh, so, uh um Apparently I actually have a Star Wars character name Which is called akrev Um, so I and one of the guys on drum hangs actually sent me my Star Wars figure Uh akrev, which is pretty cool. I love it. You know, so I don't think any, uh, I don't think my boys care about any other credit other than I'm akrev in Star Wars return of the Jedi I didn't know the level of celebrity who I was talking. Yeah talking to akrev It's great. So basically what it was and even this was had a really great little side story They'd read I mean, it's it's old news now. So this one matter if this comes out but they had recorded the drums already in la with greg bisonet and, uh There was some union thing why they couldn't use it So I, um They brought the jerry hay the, uh, ranger trumpet player He came over to london and asked, uh, this guy derrick wotkins who's the Well, probably the finest lead trumpet player ever arguably Um, we need a drummer and derrick very kindly recommended me. So anyway, I ended up doing this session, uh for jerry hay for for return of the jedi and Jerry handed me this drum part which was written out note for note So I presumed it was a transcription of what greg had played So I got very very close to it, you know And uh, greg, uh, jerry said to me it's got to be exactly the same, you know, so he said we'll It became like a game. He put greg up in the left speaker and me in the right And we would sit in the middle listening to playback and we would go It's close, but let's do one more, you know So okay, I go back out do another one a whole take not drop in, you know, but we do a whole take No, no, no, that's not it. That's not it. And after about I'm guessing about You know eight or ten takes or something I said to him, that's it. That's it. And he said, yeah, come on. I've listened. So I went and had a listen and he At the end he said, you know one more one more and I said no, no, no that it was exactly right It there's not one There's nothing I could hear and he said I'll show you and there's a cymbal crash that overhangs for about two bars And in that silence you could hear greg tapping his foot on the hi-hat pedal And it was just a game. He said come on do another one with the hi-hat foot in there And I was like, yeah, come on. So I ran down back and we did another take and I tapped my foot and he said, that's it, man So, uh, but you know, I did give myself. I thought Maybe they'll tell people they they did the session And they'll use greg's take but when I listened to it back. I could tell they'd use my take So, you know, this little even though two people played together you can always tell who it is, you know, yeah Yeah, so uh, yeah, so that was very cool. Yeah, really really that was a great session Man, that's so cool. Yeah. Yeah That's anything star wars is its own kind of like To this day, it's still one of the biggest like, you know, I guess it probably is yeah Is it the biggest? What's the word? You know, not franchising the wrong words. You know, yeah, I think it probably is yeah series of movies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, probably I I actually I really really love doing movies because It is a different it's another level of Kind of concentration. You don't know what you're gonna get handed out You're gonna be playing often gonna be playing live with maybe 80 people in the studio You know, you don't often get to do that. You know, so Man, uh, that is awesome. But uh, so now we're gonna do something on the show. Um, which is a little bit different We're actually gonna switch gears. Um, Neil, you've been working with a gentleman named Russ Gleason On his project called drum hangs. Um, russ is a you know, music industry veteran has played Uh For a very long time. So I want to welcome russ onto the show who's going to talk to us about their project Drum hangs russ. Welcome. Hey, bud. Great to be here. How you doing? Yeah Good. This is this is cool. It's like a surprise guest for for listeners. Yeah. Yeah popped in at the end, you know Yeah, great to be here. Oh, this is so cool. So so why don't you just tell us what drum hangs is? Um Just tell us all about it and then um We'll close out with that. I think that's a good way to end the episode Yeah, well, I think I think at the end of the day, it's a happy lockdown success story, I guess and uh, there was so much Obviously, we know what's happened with the co vid. Um, everyone lost their work and no one's doing anything and was locked down at home You know from march and um, me and neil we speak, you know, pretty much every day, you know, and um, I must say, you know, he's one of the greatest drummers to ever Pick up the sticks, you know, he is incredible, you know, and I've sat in on sessions shows with him he's Very, uh, amazing So yeah, I have to say that of course and you know, we talk every day and uh And neil one day it got to about one month into the lockdown. So it got to about april I remember one day we sat on zoom and we had a bit of I've got the notes here and it says drums and tea with neil and the dates like the 16th of april something and I say, oh You know, we've had an hour and uh, we were just playing and he said, oh, that was good that and I said He said, oh, I might do some zoom lessons and I said, no, you're neil wilkinson I'm not letting you do zoom lessons. No way like that. I said, hey, I've got this idea and um, I'd already thought about this idea and I said, look What are you doing next saturday? Let's invite some people along and um, we can do a group zoom thing and you can talk you can play and people will want to see you so We did it on the saturday. I just put it out to some friends and uh, we had About 60 people turn up and we were like, oh and the energy that came off the screen when it happened It was like everyone just went. Yes like this buzz Of being so uninterested in music and interest interested in their drums And to actually feel this inspiration Just bounced off the screen and so we were like, wow, it just like two hours just flew by we were like, wow That was amazing. So we thought we'll do it again next week And in the meantime, I've been speaking with uh, Nate Smith who's who's someone I know and I've done some sort of put on some stuff with him before and been to a lot of his gigs and um So I'd said to him, hey, Nate, do you want to be a guest on this thing? I'm doing and he said, yeah, absolutely. So We announced at the end of the second one with neil that Nate was going to join us and somewhere There's a picture of everyone's face in the gallery and they just couldn't believe it So, you know, it was like, wow, we're gonna it's gonna happen So we went downstairs after the hang and I had dinner with my wife And I put it on my instagram that obviously Nate would be joining us And then about five minutes of digging into my my curry that we were eating My phone starts dinging just ding ding ding ding like oh my god, what's happening? And it turns out Nate shared it on his story and of course he's got 200 000 instagram followers So I'm up for two nights running Responding to inquiries. Just I didn't expect him to do that at all. You know, I just I was gonna be me and my friends, you know so And then that course happened. So then we had people from 20 different countries around the world joining us Um, and it was an amazing hour with Nate and uh, neil always does a sort of intro at the start We shared some ideas and then the guest comes on and uh, it's very relaxed in formal and spontaneous and people get to interact with their heroes, you know And we've had Steve gads been on twice Vinnie Colliute has been on jack D. Jeanette jim kelton Um, Simon Phillips is on tomorrow night. Um, obviously this go out at a different time But um, we've got Dennis chambers mark juliana pierce skin um, cardamaclain jonathan blake david garabordy Um, Steve jordan gavin harrison. I mean the list goes on jr. Robinson You know the greatest drummers of all time have been on drum hacks and People are going to talk to their heroes directly, you know, and it's a dream and to be honest It's a complete accident and my my whole premise for doing it Was because I realized all my favorite drummers probably had their work was probably cancelled. Well, it was, you know Nobody was working and I wanted to support them And I wanted to connect drummers worldwide and that's kind of our tagline is connected drummers worldwide and I had to put the website together drumhacks.com and we've just been running since then and and Playing music as well. I know is about being in the moment and This whole thing with drumhacks has been about being in the moment, you know, um, yeah, and it's completely I'm running, you know And like I say, we've got people from you know over 30 countries around the world joining us every week And uh, it's still very relaxed. It's the same as how it started, you know, but can you maybe clarify too so people know like Like is it's not like a zoom lesson where they're actually like like Is it more of like you just kind of sit and listen and they talk about the drums and they they kind of share some stories And they play a little bit for you. It's kind of like watching like a clinic at a drum shop. Yeah Yeah, so drumhacks, we don't record anything. It's all live in the moment The artists are very very relaxed. They're at home and they're sharing stories about their insights into music They're also doing a bit of playing if they want to and you're you're seeing them Really open up because we're not putting it on youtube It's like an old school clinic in a way where people can ask them directly questions and speak to them, you know, so they can meet their heroes and It's really an amazing thing because if you were to meet A guy like say for example You bump into Vinnie Collier to a gig you're going to be so nervous But because of the community we've built up Everyone's there together and we we all know that someone's going to ask the right question That's going to go deep, you know what I mean? And then yeah, it's very cool. What's happened, you know, because everyone is It's a lot of camaraderie with the whole thing I've met people from all around the world people will sometimes say to me Hey Russ like do you want to zoom to get to know each other? And I've met all these people, you know, I've never felt so connected when I've been sat in my house since March, you know so way to make lemonade out of lemons. I mean, I think that's that good things can come from such a A really kind of you know bad situation that we've all been put in so it's it's it's cool And and I want to point out too that these are Obviously, there's a little bit of a conversion with from pounds to You know for me u.s. Dollars, but these are not that expensive. You're not charging $200 for a half hour. I mean these are These are really very affordable. Yes. Yes, and I didn't want to sort of do the whole thing where This it's cost so much money, you know, it's like a almost like a crowd-funded thing in a way, you know Which is excellent. We're supporting my heroes, you know, and we're connecting everyone at the same time and you know I'm very much a drama, you know, and we're talking about teachers and I studied with the great Jim Blackley who lives in Canada And Bob Armstrong. We obviously went to max so, you know, and Neil is a real mentor for me as well and So I have a real love for all these people and all these people from afar I've made them my friends through listening to them, you know, I'm so familiar with these people's playing and The amazing thing about the hangs is you get such an insight into the personality Look when you're listening to them after the hangs you kind of hear them in a different way You hear them as the person as well. It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. So it's Yeah, we've we've really kind of hit on something Which is very profound. I think Yeah, that's so cool. I'm gonna I'm gonna definitely pick one out here in the next month or so and And do one because I feel that where I'm like god, I need to you know Get around other drummers and be around other people and keep that motivation up Exactly. Exactly. And I think that it was so Scary When the lockdown happened, you didn't feel like listening to music You didn't feel like getting to the drums both Neil and I felt like that and To actually have this thing of like to be surrounded by like-minded people and we're all there kind of together and It's it's a really wonderful thing, you know, it's um, it's magic what happens to be honest I mean, I've got I've got so many Stories that are coming out of this thing Um, I don't think anyone's probably dealt with 40 of the world's greatest drummers in the last four months Like I have I mean I I'm writing a book about the whole thing because it's it's seriously Astonishing, I mean I could tell you some of the stories on air, but I probably want to save it to be honest. Yes. It's very cool Yeah, that's so cool. And I mean, it's all coming together for good and just like We're all drummers no matter how big you are at the end of the day. Um, so Again, people can go that's drumhangs.com. That's spelled exactly how it sounds and uh Uh Yeah, yeah, we'll be pleased to welcome you and you know come and join the family because um and the guys, you know Who are special guests they pop in and say hi, you know, I mean you can be on a hang I mean you can be on a hang with jack Dijonette and vinny might be there or you know, I mean You never know who's gonna swing by so it's pretty cool. You know, it's pretty cool It sounds like it's becoming the thing like the um I don't know, you know what? I mean like the the like the hang for lack of a better term. It's like the the drummers spot Um, so congratulations. I mean really that's that's so cool for both you and neal to be, you know Yeah, and to have neal involved is just magic, you know, because he's um He's like I say he's one of the greats, you know, and uh, yeah So it's it's a real dream and I have to kind of go wow But you know, it all stems from my love of music and my love of listening to these guys forever, you know, and um Yeah, they're not all my heroes, you know, and uh, yeah, it's it's a great thing. So yeah Perfect. Well, I think that's a super cool way to end the episode. Um, so First thank you to kind of our our surprise Uh ending guests there russ gleason. Um, which again drumhangs.com go check it out I'll be on there on one soon for sure and I'll post about it And hopefully people who like drum history can come and we can all hang and watch one of our favorite drummers together I mean that sounds like a you know, just a amazing thing to do to connect with People who like my show on your platform with one of our favorite drummers. It just couldn't be more Drummy, you know So Awesome. Well, thank you russ and then a huge huge thank you obviously to uh neil neil. Thank you for being on the show Um, oh, thank you bar. Yeah, real real pleasure. I feel like we could do uh Another couple hours easily, you know, it's great talking to you. It's really great Absolutely. Well, and I should also call you acreve That's right. Yeah Awesome. Well, thank you to both you guys and I hopefully I can uh, we can hang soon in one of the uh upcoming drumhangs Uh, it'd be great to see you any time you want to swing by but just let me know. All right. See you guys wonderful Thanks so much part If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast