 Hello and welcome to the nonprofit show. I'm so glad that you're here. It's another episode. And again, we have Dana Skirlock joining us today from Staffing Boutique. She's here to share with us about summer staffing opportunities. And this is exactly the conversation we were having in the green room chatter that just got me into so much conversation because there's a lot to talk about. But thank you to Julia Patrick that created this platform. Julia is the CEO at the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, your nonprofit nerd, wearing real nerd glasses these days, CEO of the Raven Group and honored to be co-host here of the show. We are also so extremely grateful to have our amazing presenting sponsors, many of them becoming family and really close friends, including Staffing Boutique. So I wanna give a shout out to Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy at National University, non-profit thought leader, your part-time controller, again, Staffing Boutique where Dana joins us from, non-profit nerd and non-profit tech talk. These companies, many of them have been with us from the very beginning, which was four years ago, March of 2020. And so we are marching towards our 900th episode. We've done over 800 again. Thank you to our sponsors that allow us this platform. Hey, if you haven't seen it yet, and we were talking about this, Dana, download the app so you can just scan this QR code right now on your screen, download the non-profit show app, and then within a matter of hour or same day, you'll get a notification that today's episode has been uploaded. So Dana, it's super cool. I highly recommend you do it. I know even when I'm not on the show and Julia's flying solo, I still love getting that notification. We're also still on streaming broadcast as well as podcast. So go ahead and queue us up wherever you would like to absorb that entertainment. So Dana, again, welcome back. So glad to have you for our viewers and listeners. Yeah, I want to remind everyone. So Dana serves as the director of recruitment at Staffing Boutique and look at here. She's got her email address for you. You can contact her directly and then also staffingboutique.org is the web address. So Dana, so glad to have you. Oh, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to speak with you. Yeah, is there anything new happening? I know it's like, as I look at my phone, it's June the 6th, right? So is there anything that's kind of shaking you and Katie up lately? I mean, time is flying is what I would say is that, and I experienced that personally and professionally, just as I'm speaking with candidates and clients and just people in my life, it just feels like everything is so fast these days. And I think it's twofold. I do think like it's partly because of technology, that you get responses more quickly than, when I started recruiting, you would email someone or fax a resume. Right. I'd wait to hear back for a long time and just our expectations about everything were a lot slower. And I think that includes the candidates as well. So we're all just used to things being so fast these days. You're on Instagram, you get information right away. So to submit your resume through a recruiter and then get it submitted to an organization and then after wait, I think it's hard for the clients to move as quickly as the candidates are expecting and for us as intermediaries. So the overall theme I think is just everybody's, managing everybody's expectations has been the biggest challenge of wait. And I think people who really need a job are very urgent and there are clients who really need the staffing help and they're very, you know, anxious as well. And so we're Katie and I at the staffing boutique are trying to basically oversee all of that and still keep candidates engaged and still get the clients what they need and everybody's on their own timeline. So it's, I think that's been, yeah. I think, and that's always been the challenge with staffing, but I think particularly in this day and age that that's been something that I've noticed in the last six months. It's just everything moves very quickly or that people are expecting things to move very, very quickly. And when they don't, that's when it causes sometimes. Yeah, some frustration. Well, let's dive into this summer staffing opportunities. We've got some great things you're gonna share with us. And the first one, which I love this photo, it looks like, you know, peaky huts over Bora. I know. Wouldn't it be great if we were there? Because we could still be- Doing the non-profit show would be great. Right. So how do vacations in summer schedule, you know, really impact the hiring process? What are you seeing for this? Sure. I think that in the past several years, just culturally we've moved away from this idea of having sort of one boss who oversees everything and it's not team made decisions that it was just like one leader making decision. That is all wonderful. I think everybody's moved towards a more egalitarian, you know, model for their work that they do, their personalized society, et cetera. And so what that means is that I have a lot of clients who have a lot of staff members who are involved in the hiring. When I first started recruiting, often it would be one hiring manager and that person would make the decisions. They would do the interviews. So you're only dealing with one person's schedule and one person's, you know, preconceived notions and ideas about the job and experience. Now what I'm seeing is there's eight people involved in the hiring process, you know, because they all deserve to have a say in who gets hired for this position and they're wanting to open up the leadership within the organization to more people so that it's more shared power. All of those things are obviously useful and wonderful things that have happened. I think when it comes to hiring some of the consequences of that are particularly when it's summer. And if you have, let's say three to five people involved in the hiring process, juggling all of those schedules amongst summer vacations. They have children, family planning, you know, summertime is a big time for kids to be off of school. And so that cuts into the hiring manager's time. And so we're trying to then put another thing on top of that Sunday and like juggle interviews for a candidate. And sometimes it does topple. And so I think that that's been something that has always impacted summer hiring is just the scheduling of things, but in particular now because of how involved an overall organization is in the hiring. And they're also, I think be more careful about hiring in part because of thinking about, you know, EDI initiatives and, you know, people are thinking about for those watching at home, like, you know, if you're thinking about diversity and equity inclusion, it may make the hiring process a little bit longer. And I think a lot of organizations are obviously looking at those things now. How do we find diverse candidates? That could elongate the hiring process longer if you aren't well-versed in diversity initiatives. And so, and that's also that, again, it's a good thing. And then also it makes the process a little bit longer in which case sometimes you can lose candidates, good candidates, just because of the speed with which you're able to hire. So my, you know, my mantra to these candidates and clients these days in the summer months is to the candidates to extend a little bit more grace and understanding in terms of the timeline that it may not be as quickly as if it's September and things are moving really quickly and people are all back in the office. It's twofold though. I also am always advising my clients that, you know, let's not let summer derail us from getting this hiring opportunity taken care of and how can we streamline the process as much as possible. Yeah. You know, you bring up so many great points and, you know, we're moving into keeping the process going through the summer because you mentioned like we're juggling, you know, vacations. Many of us are also juggling, you know, children's schedules because they're out of school, which even this morning, right? Like I'm kicking my son out as you and I are starting our conversation. So there's a lot going on. And what I also share with you, Dana, is like, I feel this where our sector has become or maybe has, you know, has been for a while this hurry up and wait kind of a culture if you would. So whether it's hurry up and wait to sign this contract, hurry up and wait to hire this person, hurry up and wait to interview someone, like I just don't feel like a lot of nonprofits move at a fast pace. Are you seeing that even in like, because you're in New York, everything could be faster. Yeah. You make up a great point just in terms of like, I think because a lot of the environments are mission driven, I think people can have the posture and the culture within a nonprofit of that, which is not corporate. So things aren't ever gonna move as quickly as corporate. And so it ends up moving slower than it should though, even if it doesn't move as quickly as corporate, which there are reasons what we're being more thoughtful about what we're doing, we're thinking about the long-term, it's not just about making money. So I totally understand the processes are gonna be a little bit slower than corporate. But, you know, we do have to keep up, I think, with technology and with the times and start to move with the pace that is gonna be most comfortable for the people joining the workforce, which are gonna be like the Gen Xers. Right. In years, you know, so it's just interesting to see how that has impacted the nonprofit sector, I think becoming more or being pressured to become more corporate-like. Like I think that's been some of the call from people is like, yes, we have some benefits from being a nonprofit, you're not paying taxes, you can usually provide health insurance for your workers at low or no cost. So there's some benefits that way, but salaries have always traditionally been under market. Like there are things like that where I've seen workers really kind of challenging those paradigms within the nonprofit sector. And I think the speed with which a nonprofit works is one of those paradigms. Like I think we're really seeing a lot of pushback from people either looking to switch to the sector or people that are, you know, up and coming, like let's say they're just getting their NPA in their early 20s, which I knew a lot of people when I was in my early 20s that were getting an NPA. You know, so it's that age group. I think it's been interesting to see them with this new perspective and technological upbringing, like as they're joining the sector, what their expectations are. And I think there's been like a push to bring the nonprofit sector into the future. And that's gonna include like the timeline that a lot of things like changes can't be made very quickly. You can't make institutional adjustments, you know, without a six month board process or things like that, I think are starting to get challenged a lot more. Yeah, you know, and you mentioned earlier too, having perhaps eight people involved in the interview process. And, you know, for me, that speaks to the culture. That speaks to will this new hire, you know, mix and mingle well, you know, will they play well with others culturally? You know, like how will they fit in this environment? And I think that's big for both sides. I think it's big for the team that exists. And I think it's really big for the person looking for, you know, the hiring opportunity. Yeah, and also is the, you know, the team of people that are in charge of the hiring or have a say in the hiring, are they trained interviewers or are they people that are staff members that happen to do something else and have an important perspective to the hiring process and for who's going to do this job nine to five, you know, for the foreseeable future, but are they trained interviewers? Is it advantageous to add them to the process? Have you listened in on your assistant VPs, phone screens with candidates before you just assuming that they can interview well? You know, like, so there may be some stops and starts. Sometimes when I'm having candidates interview with multiple people, the details about the job vary depending on who the candidate talked to. That can be disconcerting for a candidate, especially one that's currently working that's in high demand, that has a specific skill set that a lot of different organizations need. All it takes is the smallest inconvenience and they will, they'll say, I have other opportunities. I'm not going to, you know, worry about this organization. And so I think some of it is the perspective of the hiring team that they have to realize that like it's not an environment where you're screening a bunch of candidates and selecting the best one and you guys are really the like in high demand. It's kind of the other way around. Like you have to really make the environment really enjoyable and work quickly and make the first person feel wanted and welcomed. And you have to do that eight times with all the different candidates that you have in the pool. Yeah. So that means that, you know, you really have to, you have to figure out like what are the priorities with the job? What are the absolute main priorities? And is everyone on the hiring team familiar with what that is? Right. Yeah. You know, like have you discussed the job with the, you know, the hiring managers on the different departments and said, okay, this is what we're really screening for. This is what you should ask for. Here's our goal with this team interview. Here's what I want this person asking you to ask. And I, you know, let's pre-plan what questions we want to discuss and stuff. You know, like I don't think that a lot of that is happening. People involved in the process. The processes I've been involved, I will tell you I've not seen that, right? And so I often do come with a set of questions and I share, you know, here's what we're looking for, you know, kind of from what you were saying, Dana, which I so appreciate. But my question I want to ask is how is technology playing a role in the hiring process during the summer? You know, because we talked about just juggling schedules and other commitments. So are we able to let's say interview someone in person and someone else virtually? Do we need to stay consistent with all of the candidates and all of the different, you know, touch points? What does that look like? I think technology has made it, especially post-pandemic, has made it so much easier to keep the process going. So we really don't have any excuses anymore for the process to follow by the wayside. Because back before we could do Zoom interviews, if a hiring manager went on vacation for two weeks during the summer, we lost all the candidates and we would just have to redo the search. I think what is good about it now is that everybody's familiar with Zoom. You can get it on your smartphone, even if you don't have a computer for whatever reason. And everybody can at least either speak on the phone or do a Zoom interview with the hiring manager and keep the process going. I think that what you mentioned, like those touch points, which like in the recruiting world, we really refer to what it's like, just keeping in touch with the candidate. We call it touch points. It's just a fancy term for like, don't just interview them and then let them not hear from you for two weeks. Like send them a thank you note. Stay in touch. Follow up with them, stay in touch. Once a week, reach out to them, have a spreadsheet of who you've interviewed for this job, who's applied. And reach out to them once a week and just let them know, hey, we're still interviewing, we're still interested in you. It makes a huge difference in whether I call a candidate after three weeks of not hearing from us like any forward movement and whether they wanna come back in for an interview or not. It makes a huge difference if they've heard from us or from you, the hiring managers, like multiple times. It gives them the idea that like, oh, they're still interested in me. There's just some internal issues on their end that's delayed it, which is 99% of the time true. They don't believe it when I tell them that because they haven't heard from the client in so long. But really what it is, is they just have internal things going on and an event coming up, a golf outing or whatever happened and they couldn't continue with the hiring process as quickly as they should. And so it has nothing to do with their opinion of the candidate, but on the receiving end, as an applicant, it can just feel that way, whether it's the truth or not. So it's really important to make sure that you are like, have a process for touch points with candidates and that you're following it with all the candidates. And I would say the more contact, the better. So if you can do it as much as once a week with candidates who are still on the running, but that are, you know, you're not ready to move forward with, I would at least reach out to them once a week. But that also means you need to be organized, which I'm like very OCD about a lot of stuff, like on my calendar and like that's, I would say when people start recruiting, I usually tell them like 99% of it is just being organized. And that is like, it's not that it's rocket science, it's not that it's difficult, it's more just that it's like, you have to really be organized on top of everything. That does translate to if you're a hiring manager at home and you have to like staff your department, it's not the main part of your job, but recruitment is part of it. And so being super organized and having a spreadsheet of all the candidates that you're meeting with and speaking with, it sounds like a lot of extra work, but it saves you the time in the backend. It saves time. It's worth doing. Yeah, no, I think that is fantastic. And as both of us in the green room chatter had a little bit of a gas, but like can you believe that June is here? So we're gonna talk about fiscal year end, June 30th and the impacts on hiring. And I've got to tell you Dana, like I've heard this from my clients is we're not gonna hire until the fall, right? Or we're just gonna get through the summer, we're just gonna make it work and get through the summer. So what are you seeing as these impacts on hiring because it is for many of us fiscal year end? Yes, it's always been interesting to me when I started recruiting in the nonprofit sector to think about year end in two parts, which is always the nonprofit fiscal year ending at the end of June and then at the end of the calendar year. And so it's, because technically working for a staffing organization, which I've worked for several, that's technically not a nonprofit. We may have worked only with nonprofits and those were clients, but we're still a corporate entity. And so I've always had this like dual brain about both. I think with nonprofit organizations, knowing that the fiscal year is coming up, I think planning ahead for your hiring is just a big part of it. Are you hiring and you're trying to get them in on the fiscal year that ends June 30th or are you trying to get them after June 30th for the new year? That I think is the first question that needs to be answered in. Some people at home might be like, of course we know that. I talked to a lot of clients that haven't thought about it. So it's worth mentioning because for every person that says duh, there's somebody who hadn't thought about it. So I think the first thing is just assessing, are you trying to get somebody in if you're on a crux time, like if May is when you're hiring, are you trying to get them in before the fiscal year ends or are you trying to actually put them on the next fiscal year? Then once you've assessed that, I think that it's also helpful to make the advertisements that you have very clear that you're looking to hire either sooner or later. So what I get a lot of when I'm speaking to candidates is, I'll call them out about a job that I've spoken with the client and they've told me is very urgent and they need to hire somebody right away. They would take somebody tomorrow if they found the right person. When I get on the phone with candidates, inevitably if it's around summer or fiscal year and they'll go, well, I know that they're probably not gonna really hire until fall or I know they're probably not gonna be able to move forward for another three weeks. And I'm going, where did you get that? And they're like, well, it's summertime or well, June 30th is coming up. And I'm going, I have not said that. And in fact, I've said more so that this is urgent and candidates hear it. But I think for me what I'm hearing as well is like setting those expectations. So clear expectations, consistent communication, like if the candidate saying, oh, I know we're not gonna hire for whenever. Again, just saying, where did you hear that? As you just said, and then coming back to say, well, really this is an urgent hire and that's what we're looking to do. And so I was just sharing like, the expectations and the communication I think is critical in that moment. Yes, no, exactly. And I think that sometimes hiring manager, it goes back to like, are you trained interviewer? Have you done a lot of interviewing? Maybe not. And so like, I think that that's something that's worth like remembering when you're doing. Yes, but Dana, you always come and bring so much insight. And I know that staffing boutique is very busy. You guys have been, our ladies have been so grateful throughout the entire pandemic, being with us, sharing insight, what's happening and we're talking like real time because broadcasting, you guys are in New York, so hearing that from you. So Dana Skirlock, you always have just really good information to share. And I know anytime we do an Ask episode with you, we always have so many people that are like lined up with their questions, they wanna ask Dana. So I think we'll need to do that one again. But again, I know, I think it's just so much fun. So Dana Skirlock, Director of Recruitment at Staffing Boutique, here's Dana's email. So check this out, Dana at staffingboutique.org and then the web address is staffingboutique.org. Dana and Katie and the rest of the team are doing fantastic work in and around the nonprofit sector. I know you also do a lot for charter schools. And so that's interesting because they're probably on summer break, yet looking at their brand new hires for the next year. And so there's just so much going on. It's true. In the education field, what's interesting is summer is more busy than for other nonprofits with different types of missions because that's the time they have to hire, especially gearing up towards the end of August and September, there's a ton of hiring going on. There's been hiring going on since winter, but the summer is when it's like, we have our final openings, we have to hire people. So it's interesting. Well, and they ramp up too, knowing like, okay, which teachers are coming back, who's returning, who's not returning, and really looking at that. So there's a lot of juggling going on and I just admire the work that you guys do. I'm so glad to be here with you, Dana. It's always great. So again, thank you to Julia Patrick for creating the American Nonprofit Academy as well as the Nonprofit Show. I love coming on and being the co-host and having these fantastic conversations. I learn every single opportunity, so thank you again. And thank you to our sponsors without them. We would not be here. They include Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy at National University, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Your Part-Time Controller, Staffing Boutique, again, where the amazing Dana comes from, Nonprofit Nerd and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the companies that allow us these conversations. And again, the one with Dana, I feel like you and Katie take turns, right? Like one month it's Dana, the other month it's Katie. And so we get to hear from both of you. And again, as one of our presenting sponsors and partners, so much gratitude and love having you guys on because it's ever shifting, you know? And I feel like when I went through my hiring process throughout my career, which has been 20 plus years, right? There's so much evolution. So hearing from you is always really good. Yeah. Oh, it's awesome. Thank you so much for always having us and letting us come on and share our thoughts and our experience with your audience. It's great. Well, absolutely. And again, this is recorded and it will go on all of our platforms and make sure you check that out. And if you want to share this with your team, make sure that you do that as well because there's some nuggets of information here that you won't want to miss. Well, as we end every episode, Dana, we want to remind you, our viewers, our listeners, as well as myself today, we invite you and encourage you to stay well so you can do well. Thanks everyone and join us back here tomorrow. Thanks, Dana.