 This panel is focusing more on the civil society perspective in the whole low emissions rural development planning and implementation. Next slide, please. All of the panelists in this session are members of the founding members of the Sustainable Tropics Alliance, which is a strategic partnership of independent non-governmental organizations that are drawing on research, multi-stakeholder engagement and local knowledge to develop alternative low-emission rural development models in the tropics. The representatives are from the Instituto de Bien Comune in Peru, the Greenbelt Movement in Kenya, the Earth Innovation Institute in various countries, the Instituto de Pesquisa Ambiental de Amazonia, Pro Natura Sur in Mexico, and also we have collaboration from the Foundation for International Environmental Law and Development, which is based in the UK. The founding concept of this alliance is that civil society groups play a really important role in facilitating and fostering development conservation and climate change and mitigation and adaptation strategies, and that they can play a really important role in helping to bridge, for example, changes in political regimes at regional and national levels, that they can help to interpret international and national regulations and mechanisms for the local level and so on and so forth. So that's really the founding concept here. What I also wanted to highlight is that we have prepared a report that you'll see back there at the back table, or you can also download it online if you don't want to carry lots of papers around, on fostering low-emission rural development from the ground up, and this is a summary of progress towards low emissions rural development in eight regions, or as I'm going to call it from now on, led R. This map here just gives you an overview of the eight regions that we covered in the report for now, although our colleagues and partners work in several other regions as well. You can see, and we're not going to go into details, but we've tried to compile statistics on deforestation rates in those regions, and you know, what I want to highlight here is that actually only a couple of these states, provinces, or other regions we've also defined our regions in terms of watershed landscapes. Only some of them actually have targets and reference levels already for how to reduce deforestation in these regions. Most of the regions also are not benefiting from really well-developed and publicly available monitoring systems, and so that's still a real setback for many of the regions. So what I'm going to do is just highlight a couple of the main points of our report, and then I'm going to let our panelists talk about some of the details in the individual regions. So just to give you an overview of what the main causes of deforestation in these regions are, they're not surprising perhaps, but what we did try to do is break them out by the scale at which they're really taking place, and across regions, even the ones where, like Mato Grosso in Brazil, where it's known for large-scale agriculture being a driver of deforestation, actually, what we find is that smallholder deforestation activities related to livestock and agriculture or domestic fuel-wood harvest and so on are still among the most important nationally and regionally, partly because those stakeholders are really still not being engaged in sustainable development or red strategies and so on and so forth. And so that's a real gap that we identified, that there needs to be more finance incentives programs being directed to those groups because they're really the ones who need the help the most, and will continue to have to rely on these natural resources. You know, you can also see that there's sort of a combination of factors that's much broader at these national and regional levels, but especially the regional level, and that's one reason that we think it's so important to focus on these smaller landscapes and not just at national and international levels. We also tried to look at the stakeholder dynamics in each region. So how much power does each group in the region have to actually affect decision-making versus the impact that that group is having on deforestation? As you can imagine, there's quite a range in the regions, but on average what we found is that government, large-scale agriculture or extraction type of businesses and public finance tended to have the biggest impact on deforestation as well as the highest levels of power in most regions. As I just mentioned, small holders tended to have the most amount of impact in regions, but it varies very widely how much decision-making power they actually have. And so again, I would just want to reiterate how important it is to engage those stakeholders. Then you can see in general here that, you know, there are actually a lot of stakeholders who need to be involved in in multi-stakeholder discussions of low emissions real development planning, but overall what we found is that these are very patchy in their progress. While most of our colleagues and many of their partners are developing such processes, they don't necessarily across the board include all of the actors that need to be there in effective ways. Finally, just a quick assessment of progress towards lead R in these regions. You can see very few of the regions would be assessed as being very advanced in their progress. ACRE, as has been mentioned here and in many other panels at the official COP venue, at the Pabellón de Bosques, is the most advanced jurisdiction in making progress towards an integrated plan for low emissions real development that focuses on climate and well-being and so on. But many of our regions are also making important progress in those areas. And I'm going to let our panelists now give us an idea of some of the challenges and opportunities in their regions and then we'll have some questions and as well as questions from the audience. So first, I would like to ask Ani Alenkar from the Instituto de Pesquiza Ambiental da Amazônia in Brazil to give us a little bit of an overview of their work in ACRE and Mato Grosso. She's the director of the Amazon Scenarios program at IPAM. The next set of slides, please. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for the invitation. I think it's been great to have participated on this alliance and sharing so many thoughts and experiences among our regions. I'd like to initiate my five-minute contribution to this discussion, talking about the main barriers that we face on these study regions, which are ACRE State and Mato Grosso State, that we face on this work. And I'd like to highlight that we are partnering with Earth Innovation in the strategy to foster LEDAR in those two states in the Brazilian Amazon. So the main barriers in ACRE would be, I mean, the highway expansions and paving and lack of positive incentive to farmers, engage the producers like large, medium and small-scale, mainly producers, cattle-wrenching producers into LEDAR and engage also local governments into this process of LEDAR. IPAM and EII are working in five different strategies to achieve and to foster dialogue to achieve LEDAR on these states. The first one is to actually help strengthening the state programs and also to implement forest code. To help also to develop, I mean, as Carol Ranche is one of the main, how can I say, driver of the forestation, we are helping to develop these states to develop sub-programs that are linked to the red strategy for the states. We are engaging, as Dan mentioned, private sector on dialogues, like multisectorial dialogues. We are also engaging producers, like cattle-wrenching producers, mostly on specific, how can I say, dialogue with sub-programs to intensification sub-programs. We are also engaging settlers in these programs. And finally, we are also working very closely with municipal programs to strengthen their governance on these issues. So I think those are the main elements that we are tackling on our region. And the main opportunities on that, I mean, ACRI is by far the state that is taking a lead on many of the things as Claudia presented. ACRI has the opportunity to have, like, California red provisions and ACRI has already the red early movers support. Although there are some difficulties in terms of cattle industry in ACRI, but we are working very closely with Danji, which was presented first, in trying to come up with a sub-program that is linked with the CISA so can actually support cattle-wrenching industry in ACRI, which are mainly smallholders. Yeah, I think that we do have a main, just to end, we do have a main, how can I say, challenge, which I think is to connect all the way from smallholders to large commodity industries and to connect states all the way from municipal to states and national governments' strategies on red. So if we can integrate this multi-scale approach, I think we will be very advanced on LEDAR and this is what we are trying to do in ACRI and Mato Grosso, like supporting those governments, local state governments, supporting those main stakeholders that are like one, have very important role on driving deforestation and also can have a very important role on reducing deforestation. Thank you. Wonderful, thank you, Annie. Next I would like to invite Dr. Margarita Benavides from the Instituto del Bien Comune. She is the Deputy Director of the Institute and she will present on the Pachitea watershed work that they are carrying out. Thank you. Artura Boscoza has been decreasing through the years while in 2000, 82% of the basin had forest and in 2010 it has decreased to 74%. There is a strong deforestation, fast deforestation, more than anything by agricultural and livestock expansion. The area has 100,000 inhabitants that belong to all these Amarillo mosaics, they are native communities that belong to four different indigenous peoples. Then there are small farmers, migrants from the Sierra and there are also medium and small farmers that come from a German immigration from the 19th century. There are four protected natural areas, the largest is the communal reserve in the Sierra that has more than 800,000 hectares and several areas of local conservation and the entire province of Oxapampa has been recognized as a biosphere reserve and apart from that there is forest extraction and mining in various areas of the area and the exploitation of hydrocarbons that affect communities and also some protected natural areas. The strategies that IBC is following with allies in the basin to take forward this development proposal with low carbon emissions, rural development with low carbon emissions are the following, creating institutional governance strategies for fisheries, forests, conservation and water management in the basin. For that, we are promoting local systems of environmental management and environmental commissions of 13 district municipalities and two provincial municipalities and creating local committees of monitoring and monitoring. We are supporting planning and development of the provincial municipalities to define the rights of property and appropriate and sustainable use of resources with a long-term vision. We are contributing to the functioning of the Committee of Management of the Biosphere Reserve in Oxapampa, in Yanish as a place of participation of multiple actors for the planning of sustainable use of the basin. We are trying to establish with 13 district municipalities the main community, as well as with the provincial and regional governments and the National Water Authority to achieve sustainable use and management of the basin. We are supporting the native communities in the elaboration of their plans for the good living in the territorial management and governance with a vision of the basin and articulating them to the government plans of the local municipalities. As for the conservation of the landscape and the forests, we are supporting the Campecina de Huachón community which is in the high parts of the Cordillera to establish its private conservation area. Also, a conservation area with the municipality of Chontabamba and we are working with the Comité de Gestión de la Reserva Comunale El Sira to improve the management of the reserve. We are spreading and analyzing with the different actors the forestry history in the area in order to create plans to avoid forestry. As for sustainable development through the use of resources, we are taking initiatives to produce clean water creating reciprocal agreements between land and forest owners where water is produced and the consumers of water through the municipalities of Oxabamba, Chontabamba and Chorobamba and we are working with the communities to recover the rivers of the rivers with forest species. We are also contributing with communities and small owners to establish fishing agreements and the committee of surveillance recognized by local governments. We are at the level of promoting the participation and respect of the individual and collective rights of indigenous peoples in the different instances of government and dialogue. We are reinforcing the participation of its associations as well as the application of a previous consultation that is obligated by law in Peru in front of extractive activities that affect its territories. We are also supporting to conclude the titles of the native communities of the area. The incidence is at the level of local, regional and national governments so that they reinforce and implement the laws and control in relation to the TALA and illegal mining and that the regulation of fishing by adapting it to the specificities and needs of the Amazon. The greatest risks to reach a transition to a development with low emissions of carbon are the dominant vision of governments and the most powerful actors in the region that influence projects of public and private investment in the construction of roads and the expansion of agriculture and livestock with a short-term vision and without giving the relevance that forests, water and climate change are required. In that context there is a tendency to weaken the environmental standards and the legal security of indigenous territories and the protected natural areas in favor of extractive activities. As you can see our work is at the local and regional level with local governments with communities little by little we will have to work with small individual producers but they need to be associated so it becomes quite difficult so we have to promote the association of the small producers. Thank you very much. Next I would like to invite Bernadena Stenny from Earth Innovation Institute in Indonesia. Stenny is a research associate with the institute but also a leading environmental and community rights lawyer and leader in Indonesia. Go ahead, Stenny. Thank you, Claudia. I'll start my presentation with link to the previous question regarding the monitoring system which is we are now developing on Indonesia and we are working on in Central Kalimantan in two districts and we are now trying to increase our influence at the provincial level which is I think previously mentioned that Governor Teras Narang is one of the key governor leading in a governor climate task force and have a commitment to also reduce deforestation in provincial level and support the national commitment to reduce deforestation 26% and 41% as already stated by Indonesian government many times. I'm going to start with one of the key challenges that we are facing in Indonesia is to monitor the small holders' farmers where many, many times people are talking about but it's quite difficult to find where exactly they are how actually the challenges they face are relatively huge for the production of oil pump in especially in Central Kalimantan and we really need to see actually how the link between these small holders and the big companies so that's one of the key challenge and the second one is because those small holders' farmers also related to the policy reform we are trying to see how actually the issue on land tenure has been dealt with at the very small scale and try to see based on those cases link up to the policy reform at the provincial and the national level and the another challenge is also because in consistency in policies like I think not only Indonesia maybe in other countries also and the also the issue of incentives that is now not directly reaching to the national level including those small holders' farmers have no access actually to the finance and these are the barriers that we are now facing on and we are trying to see how these barriers we start with dealing with the monitoring system at the provincial level and at the same time we also see the opportunity that because the new government now new regime President Joko Widodo is having I think quite strong enough commitment to still continue to support the international trade commitment and it's already happening just recently that they will support it to continue and also it's good to see that I think my colleague before Minasetra has said that in terms of land tenure Indonesia just recently had a constitutional court decision that support the customer so these are the things that barriers and opportunities that we are working as a basis for having a monitoring system and why it matters I think we all know here that monitoring system is a way to also see how the rules and regulations implemented also to monitor how the companies committed to reduce the deforestation and also feedback to the policy and one of the crucial things to see actually to see where exactly those small holders farmers are and what are the key challenges they face and these are the needs that why and the background why we set up the monitoring system and we have just recently launched the system at the district level in Kotawaringin Barat and we hope that based on the new law we just recently have a new law on the regional government it's also support the provincial government's role to continue supervision and monitoring at the district and provincial level it's quite strong and we hope that in the next work we can use those laws as a basis for our continued work thank you thank you very much next I would like to ask Jose Antonio Montero from the Pro Natura Sur in Chiapas, Mexico to tell us a little bit about their work there he is the leader of public policy programs at Pro Natura Sur thank you Claudia thank you all for coming I brought a presentation in English but fortunately there is a translation I can speak a little more fluently and say in less time so let's start by explaining briefly the work of Pro Natura Sur in Chiapas with the process of real development of emissions where Pro Natura is trying to boost with the local communities and with the federal and state governments the alignment of public policies to improve the territorial development and to establish a synergy between all the actors to improve the reduction of emissions by degradation and deforestation and how to improve the territorial development in the field of agriculture and livestock in Chiapas we have a legal and institutional structure that allows the alignment of public policies to adapt and mitigate emissions and adaptation to climate change this is the climate change law environmental law and the sustainable rural development law these three laws generate a general and sufficient to align public policies and in such a way that these legal elements have the structure of an international coordination commission and the program of the action plan for climate change of the state of Chiapas however we find some problems like a dense public structure we have about 19,000 small communities and it is very difficult to work with all of them because it is not the same to work with small owners who work and align 19,000 communities at the same time another barrier is that sectors have a tendency to work in their own goals in their own results and this complicates the fact that all can be articulated in a institutional synergy that works for the rural development of emissions and another problem is that the risks is that the increase of some of the crops like the oil palm has grown about 189% in 10 years, 30,000 hectares sorry, 10,000 hectares now we have about 40,000 hectares one of the risks that this does not work is that in another 10 years we have a growth of the oil palm for example up to 100,000 hectares which also increases the earnings with the subsequent deforestation and of course the increase of the emissions in Chiapas in this moment there are about 57% of the emissions of the state of Chiapas are in the agricultural sector there are about 47,000,000 tons of CO2 equivalent which is in comparison with other states of the republic thank you Pepe next if I can pull it up I would like to invite Charles Mwangi who is the Senior Program Officer for Climate Change and Corporates at Greenbelt Movement to tell us a little bit about their work in the future of Kenya thank you so much I'm tempted to say good evening but then I realize I'm in South America because back at home it's late in the evening so good morning and welcome to Kenya I should tell you that Kenya is one out of 53 countries in Africa and we have a total of 58 million hectares but what is most interesting is the fact that out of the 59 million hectares there is only 6.8% actually we used to talk about 1.7% but now we have included the woodrads to raise that particular percentage to 6.8% the government has a vision of raising that one to 10% and that is what the Greenbelt Movement is working with the government to actually raise that and we talk about the effects of climate change they are very real in Kenya especially because I've said 8% is actually in arid and semi-arid areas and the Greenbelt Movement has been working towards helping the government achieve rural emission, rural development since 1977 and that is actually where we actually headed but I should actually say that we have 5 main water towers in the country and that is exactly where we are actually focusing and those 5 main water towers are actually the towers that actually support the economy of our country the ones that are actually being shown on the screen and as a Greenbelt Movement we have included a watershed based approach for us to be able to tackle the effects of climate change using a water based approach whereby we sent an identified critical water towers and critical water shades that we want to work on so that we can actually be able to achieve this low emission kind of rural development but I should actually say that there are several barriers that bring about the issues of not being able to address climate change issues and that is actually in low emission rural development and that is actually governance governance is a big problem in Kenya of course we have very good policies nice policies but in the shells we really implement them and I should say that for a very long time the forest used to be seen as a government forest and communities never used to be allowed to control the forest but since 2005 out of the efforts of the Greenbelt Movement among other stakeholders in the forest the first act of 2005 that has been modified this year and that particular policy has now brought about participatory forest management and our communities are now engaging in terms of conserving the forest and we are training them we are capacity building them so that we can actually be able to achieve that because it has to be a bottom top approach I should also say that we have limited technical capacity in monitoring climate change and forests in so that that capacity is not to standard but the good thing here is that the government is cognizant of the fact that we need to move to low carbon kind of rural emission carbon development and we have programs that are coming up to help the country be able to come up with programs for monitoring I should state there is a program known as system for radio emission for Kenya one of its can in Africa and the government is being assisted to do that and the Greenbelt Movement is sitting up with that particular monitoring standard at the same time we have problems in most stakeholder processes that are not very well coordinated in Kenya we have so many parts of the machine working but of course we don't have harmony in terms of different stakeholders that are doing climate change work and conservation work but we actually trying as much as possible to bring so many stakeholders together so that we can actually be able to foster a common start on these but I should also say that there are some opportunities that we do have as a country and as a Greenbelt Movement we also think that one of those particular should I say opportunities for us to be able to achieve rural emission and rural development and one of them like I said we have the forest act 2005 modified in 2014 and I said it gives our communities a participatory light in conservation of the forest so we keep on training them so that they can actually be able to take up the responsibility and know how to manage the ecosystems without necessarily relying on the government to do so we also have national climate change action plan and sub component one of the national climate action plan actually co-organizes the country needs to take a low carbon pathway and that one is here with an advantage that we are taking so that we can actually be able to make sure that we have that direction we also have our Kenyan constitution 2010 we actually have a constitution we have what we call our constitution 2010 and that constitution actually outlines that we need to achieve 10% forest cover and I think it's a good opportunity that we can utilize to be able to achieve low emission and rural development in Kenya we use hydropower but we have not tapped it to 100% at the same time we have geothermal potential and this geothermal potential really is a big advantage for us to get that green energy without necessarily burning fossil fuels at the same time we also have green energy solutions and the government movement is working so hard to actually bring about these green energy solutions and we also have our branch institution or Garamatha Institute where we have WPWA program working on cook stoves and energy saving technologies solar panels and the like at the same time we also have what in fact was a climate change bill and I think it is one of the few programs I mean bills we have in Kenya it's in the parliament and once that particular program goes through or that bill goes through to become an act it's going to help us form a national coordinating office for climate change issues and that's also some of the opportunities we think we have and we can utilize to actually achieve low emission development gracias thank you very much Charles next we'd like to actually take some questions from the audience and while you're getting ready to ask your question I'm going to ask them one thing that I'd like each of them to comment on briefly namely I would like to know what you think is the most underappreciated aspect of trying to move multi-stakeholder processes related to these issues of low emissions real development forward what are the things that you feel like as you go to these conferences and meetings you're not hearing addressed enough or what's the most difficult Charles please go ahead like I said we have so many stakeholders that are working on climate change in the country but I must say that there are a lot of different people are doing different things and we actually don't have some kind of a forum that brings people together we only have few forums like the Kenya climate change working group we are made by that at the same time we have several other few forums whereby many people who are doing climate change can actually be able to come together but we think with the coming of the climate change art that is in parliament and other activities so we have to focus on one direction okay thank you anyone else from the group Well I think one of the aspects that have not been addressed precisely the alignment of public policies the agricultural sector with what Verdea a while ago the secretary of the media said in greening agro-pecuary policies. And we don't see here, for example, these sectors of agriculture represented. We are the environmentalists in these forests, but the agro-pecuary sector is not there. So we have to call them and associate ourselves with them. We have to see that they also have their own goals, but it is an alliance that we necessarily have to build. The agro-pecuary sector is fundamental to be able to transfer to a rural development of low emissions. Although, as I mentioned at the moment, there is a legal structure, the problem is how we implement all this legal structure in which there is a tendency to practice, to fulfill commitments separately from each sector, to fulfill their goals, their legal framework, but we are not used to working together, in coordination, and it is one of the steps that we necessarily have to take. Okay, thank you. Margarita, no, Ani. I think one of the main aspects that I feel that is not, is there in the debate, but is very hidden in the most international forums that talk about low emission rural development, are the role of small holders and how to integrate them in a more formal kind of market, globalized market in a way. I think that, at least in the Brazilian Amazon, about 30% of the deforestation is by small polygons and about 31% is within settlements. Amazonian settlements, which are mostly like small holders. So these people, it's very difficult to engage them, like in a formal way, they are marginally connected with international markets. So the incidents of policies that can take them to one path or the other is very strong. So to work with these people, we do have to work a lot with public policy. And another aspect that, into that, is the role of local governments on this issue. So I think that that connection of, like, kind of trying to bring international markets or make that link more formal in a way and mediated by public policy would be a key issue to drive deforestation down within the settlements in the Amazon. So I think that issue is not very well debated in the most, I mean, how can I say, international forums that talk about this issue. So I think this is one point. Thank you, Vane, Margarita. Bueno, en la región del Pachitea un tema es visiones diferentes de desarrollo. O sea, mientras que los inmigrantes colonos tienen una visión donde ven el bosque como símbolo de atraso, los indígenas que tienen el 18% del área bajo título o posesión y si sumamos las áreas naturales protegidas son el 60% tienen una visión diferente donde el bosque es esencial para su vida. Entonces lo que estamos aprovechando nosotros son trabajar con los gobiernos locales y provinciales que tienen estas comisiones ambientales, municipales donde deben participar los diferentes actores y estamos buscando a través de los planes del buen vivir de las comunidades su participación fuerte con propuestas dentro de esas comisiones. Por ejemplo, el ámbito de la reserva de biosfera es un ámbito interesante para los medianos y pequeños empresarios de la zona porque están usando ese sello para vender sus productos y también es un ámbito donde pueden estar los diferentes actores. Entonces estamos fortaleciendo esos ámbitos para que diferentes actores con intereses diferentes participen pero con un objetivo de buscar la sostenibilidad de la cuenca y en esos diálogos que los inmigrantes colonos también cambian su visión del desarrollo donde el bosque tiene una función esencial no solamente para la región, sino para el clima. Thank you very much, Magadita. Steny. Just want to add one more thing. I think one of the very important and strategic element to success the reduced deforestation at the not only national scale but also sub-national level in Indonesia is to maximize the engagement or maybe not engagement but leadership of sub-national government which is province and districts. I think too many times we see that all of discussions related to the either finance or you know schemes related to the finance are trapped into the bureaucratic discussions at the central government level which not really touch to the issues that those who has a power to give license on the ground which is district and provincial government have not been really engaged in the process and that's the key of why we should see the monitoring system at the jurisdictional level which is province and district to make sure that they are the ones that responsible to their own territory and they are the ones also that will be responsible to count for deforestation rejection and also at the same time we see how their commitments to to fulfill the rights of the indigenous peoples and small holders farmers that really need the support from the government's facility. So I think this one of the very key important point that we need to discuss on. Great. Thank you very much, Stini. Does anyone have any questions that they would like to ask the panelists? Gentlemen there in the 6th, 7th row. Is there a microphone for him? Thank you very much, facilitator. My name is Paul Mafabi from Uganda and these are very interesting presentations but just a few issues to reflect on. One of the issues is the capacity. I've not had in this discussion talking about the inadequate capacity for us even to do what they are proposing there but also the inappropriate technologies that encourage opening up of more lands so there's extensification instead of intensification. The other issue is about the political will and patronage. Our colleague from Kenya said yes, we have the good policies but is there political will to actually implement these policies? And we have had a situation where there's a trading forest for votes and this happens in a few countries. So how can we hold the leaders more accountable and how can we better empower the citizens to exercise their rights? And finally the issue of harmonizing mandates in many of our situations we find environment management is not given a higher priority in terms of resources and the competing sectors are given more resources. Agriculture is given more money and therefore it means that the environment which should be protected is not given the resources. So I just wanted to reflect on these and maybe ask the panel if they have any comments on these issues. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. Are there any other questions that we could get out there? If not, we'll go ahead and answer. Okay. Anyone like to? Yes, Charles. Thank you so much. Our neighbor from Uganda. You are the neighbor of Kenya, by the way. So I want to start by the last question or the last comment he made about resources and the fact that environment is allocated limited resources when it comes to national budget. I remember he once heard a workshop for all African institutions dealing in forestry. And one thing that was coming up is that whenever it comes to accounting for the contribution of different sectors to the national GDP, the contribution of the forest is always underestimated. And a lot of reporting goes to manufacturing, it goes to water, but literally it's attributed to the forest. And therefore, when it comes now to actually sharing the resources for the management of this particular forest, at the same time we have the forest receiving very little amount of money for that because we don't really accurately report how the forest contributes to the GDP. And one of the issues that came up in that workshop is that we don't have forest economics, economists in Africa, in many countries. Many governments don't employ many forest economists. They don't think it's important. But at the high time we employ those forest economists so that they can actually be able to really account to precision the contribution of the forest to the GDP so that they can also receive resources. On the issue of holding our leaders accountable, that's very true. Like we said in Africa, of course, we need votes. And therefore, in many cases, if we talk about like removing people who are encroaching in the forest and you want to vote, you're not going to get them. So it's true, political view sometimes is not there and it depends on the people who are actually in power. But we keep imparting our communities because one thing we believe in, especially as a group of movement, we believe that for us to actually achieve development, we need to have good governance. We have to look at the environment and we have to look at peace. We call it the three-digit stool. Environment, peace, and governance can actually bring about development. So we employ communities so that they can actually be able to change the government, actually be able to give resources, actually be able to be accountable. Thank you. Thank you, Charles. Would anyone else like to address the question or reflect on it? I'd like to comment on something about it. Precisely one of the... it seems like one of the common problems globally is this disparity of budget between the agro-pecuary sector and the environmental sector. This policy of generating a food security is not necessarily translating into a sustainability in the production of food. And little by little, the environmental economy is generating the awareness that the environment is also a capital, that it is a resource that necessarily translates into economic aspects and that biodiversity, water, forests are also part of a capital that, since we have not worked to generate it and simply extract it, we are not giving enough value. This is where we also have to sensitize our political leaders and our localities. For example, in the case of Mexico, there is a lot of opposition from the common population for the environmental services, that is, to pay the water that I consume, there is a total resistance. And of course, as Charles said, since this is not popular, obviously it is also rejected by our political leaders that what they are looking for and what they need are direct votes. So we do have to to be aware of our society and our leaders in the sense that this conservationist of natural resources also brings us well-being. Perfect. I mean, someone else? Anyone else? Yeah, very quickly. I think you pointed out like very important issues. Well, in terms of capacity, I mean capacity is the basis of all. I think the governments in the Brazilian Amazon have been searching for partners to increase their capacity because, as Charles mentioned, money to invest in an environment agenda in Brazil is also very small compared to other sectors. Political will, well, we have a gradient of political will in Brazilian states, in the Amazon Brazilian states. I'm going to cite Acre, which is the, I mean, the most kid of our eyes. I don't know how to say that in Minha do Desolios. The poster child. Yeah, in that matters. I mean, they have a political will. They are like 15, since 1999, they are working on a forest-based economy development. So they are percursors of LEDAR. But they do face challenges, you know. So, I mean, still, like the resources are challenging capacity of local governments is a challenge. And the relationship with the federal government is a challenge. So there are a lot of challenges even if, even for the jurisdictions that are very advanced in this theme. Lastly, competing resource. Well, I mean, as Charlie has mentioned, environment has this much of money compared with other sectors. But it's funny because we have to suffer maybe from climate change like Sao Paulo now. People were drinking green juice from the torneras, the sink. It was not like real green juice but really bad water because of the drought that we faced in Sao Paulo. And so do we have to wait these extreme events to actually do something about climate change and to connect the Amazon with those issues, the deforestation with those issues? I mean, but it seems that even when we are facing very drastic events, a lot of fire in the Amazon, a lot of drought, a lot of lack of water, even facing that, it seems that the money that could be used to invest on forest-based economies, on low emission rural developed economies are being invested in adaptation of agriculture adaptation. I mean, and we need to expand that to other adaptation themes and groups and peoples and things like that. So I think the adaptation is one issue that is lacking in this debate as well. Great, thank you very much. We have maybe one minute of time that I'm going to take out of the next session because we started two minutes late. If there's another burning question, we could have one or two answers. There's one. Do we have a microphone? Thank you. Thank you very much. My name is Joy Hubernen. I'm with Field in London which is a supporting organization to the Sustainable Tropics Alliance. Our discussions here are happening in parallel with the negotiations at the Pente-Gonito on a new climate change agreement and various other international rules that relate very much to the issues that have been discussed here. Forests, the land sector generally also adaptation and other issues. There's a growing interest in those negotiations in the role that sub-national bodies, the sub-national level of governance can somehow play in implementing the future agreement. And I just wanted to briefly ask the panelists how you see or how you think international rules that are expanding in scope and extend the international rules relating to climate change, how those can best be integrated at the regional level? Thank you. Thank you, Joy. We have maybe less than a minute. So I'll just ask if maybe one or two of you could answer and then we'll try to have the rest of the discussion offline. Anyone? Margarita? Well, an international law that is the subject of the previous consultation based on the Convention 169 of the OIT was incorporated as a law in Peru. It was not necessary because it's on the constitutional level. But because of the protest that took place in 2009 of the Indians, precisely because the State took a series of initiatives in relation to its territory on hydrocarbons and other activities, a strong march and protest that lasted two periods, more or less two months each, and due to that, the previous consultation law was passed. And today it's being applied. Not 100% as one would like, but yes, the different sectors of the State are forced to apply and the previous consultation is being applied. So that's a case where an international legislation has begun to implement at different levels in the country. Okay, thank you very much. I'm getting signs that we need to finish up. So I think I want to thank everyone who participated, especially our panelists. You can catch them offline and read a little bit more detail in this report back there. Thank you very much.