 Welcome everyone. I will begin this part of the workshop supporting skepticism around the world and I'm going to begin with a sort of short overview of some skepticism around the world as we begin exploring the one thing each of us has an idea for The one thing you can do to help foster and support skepticism around the world First let me introduce our participants in this session Leo Iguay Leo raise your hand everybody knows Leo Yes Leo is a J ref research fellow and is really doing He's a sort of a lone voice in the wilderness is fostering skepticism in Africa Publishes regularly on randy.org and has published in recent months the manifesto for a skeptical Africa, which is really a blueprint for how to encourage critical thinking on the continent and really drawing The lines between the need for critical thinking and the real world harm that results from undue Credibility in Africa and he will be presenting more details about what's happening in Africa and then ways that we can Get involved to support So now at a maruku is not here. You'll hear a bit about him in this presentation. He is on his way He is some consider him sort of the James Randy of India He is a Buster of God men and you'll hear more about that Masa Mopaladoro is a leading science educator and Personality really in Italy when we were there. I'm not kidding He what he was in the center spread of a what was it a Italy's version of playgirl playboy Something not nude. It was an interview As as a skeptic. Yeah Yeah, exactly read it for the skepticism articles, right? And He's had a longtime association with James Randy and he'll be speaking about that later this weekend Richard Saunders At the end is One of Australia's leading voices for skepticism longtime association with the James Randy educational foundation and current president of The Australian skeptics. He'll be leaving with me and the one person I saved the best for last my old friend Norm Allen from the Institute for Science and Human Values who has Along with Leo, but really as an American I can't think of any other person in America Who has done more to foster skepticism in Africa than Leo. You've made how many trips Yeah, over many years, so he's he's doing really important work So for my quick overview I Could spend a lot of time talking about the various programs of the James Randy educational foundation Focused on the United States. We do digital publishing and of course the amazing meeting Leading public intellectuals really exciting folks on the program every year You guys know Neil deGrasse Tyson who has graced our presence a couple times Adam Savage We do international Cruises sort of conferences at sea Something I'm excited about that we recently did that in a sense has some International scope because it's viral online and it reaches people not just in the United States is action against celebrity psychic so that is We we brought some Dead people To speak to John Edwards because he said he could speak to dead people. We did a zombie Action against sorry not John Edward James von Prague that I love that sign use brains Psychics not real and that viral video has Achieved a lot of attention online and Ink in Forbes and LA Times and elsewhere. We have these educational resources for the classroom If you step out that door and to the left you'll see our suite of eight classroom kits now If you're an educator you should avail yourself, of course the million dollar challenge And that's what we're excited about working on today Richard and me, but what we're here to talk about is international skepticism and James Randy over the last 30 years you can really draw a line between Randy traveling the world and Skepticism starting in various pockets in some sense you might think of him as the Johnny Apple seed of skepticism Although if you see him later on today, don't tell him I said that right Randy just in the last couple years has had tours of India and Australia and Spain and Italy and Germany and a nine-city tour of Canada in nine days and Belize in Mexico and Honduras and I'm forgetting all of them so various staffers travel with Randy as he works to educate the public through his Public appearances and media appearances his trip in Italy Massimo help coordinate really a magnificent tour of Italy where Randy gave For one of these events Randy gave one talk in a theater that was simulcast to dozens of other Theaters throughout Italy and that was sold out events So that's a really exciting way that Randy is able to bring the skeptic skeptical message all over the world This is Randy in India. I Just mentioned the Italy tour. This is northern Europe and Impish magician traveling the world sowing seeds of doubt, but always with a smile You wouldn't know it by his posed pictures because he excels at this skeptic scowl, but When he performs you really enjoy that That happiness that bubbles out. So I'm going to read briefly survey skepticism around the world in India the United Kingdom Africa Canada and Australia Leo and Norm will expound on what's happening in Africa Massimo will talk about what's happening in Italy and moderate further discussion and Briefly Richard will also talk about some of the stuff happening in Australia I'm very excited about what's happening in India and I look forward to Sunil getting here because He is an example of what someone who cares about our shared values of critical thinking in the Public interest skepticism to mitigate the harm resulting from undue credulity He's a perfect example of the positive effect one can have He he may already be here through the mystery of by location. I'll check So now last April He of the Indian Rational Association He conducted an investigation of a reported Catholic cross that Wept tears and he discovered that it was actually just a leaking drain that dribbled off the crucifix Nonetheless the cross had developed a lot of attention publicly and in the media in India As a holy miracle his expose of course revealed that there were natural explanations but the act of exposing that the Crucifix was not weeping violated section 295 of India's penal code Which if you can believe this Prohibits in quotes the herding of religious sentiments. So warrants were issued for Sunil's arrest he was forced to go into hiding and and this is after many years of His sort of jutting up against people like the God men Indian gurus like Saibaba Saibaba did recently die, but there are many others We think these folks are just magicians and not even very good magicians doing sort of impressively bad sleight of hand as part of their religious presentations India has a long tradition of rationalists. I'm not even talking in historic and India But just in the last hundred years, there's Pomona and and Narendra Nayak all of us know the Indian Rationalists who have been really traveling the subcontinent training skeptics What's very exciting about what's happening in India in India? And I know of no other place that this is happening except northern Europe The Indian government actually pays for and subsidizes the skeptical education of youngsters through these column sort of road shows that Nayak Conducts he's another Indian rationalist. He's the president of the Federation of Indian rationalist associations And he teaches science and skepticism to youngsters on these tours Effectively helping Encourage the next generation to combat the harmful superstitions of the God men and notions Cultural notions like the castes etc We were happy to meet with all of the leadership of the Indian rationalists on a recent tour of India And what's very exciting as I mentioned is that he receives government funding So that's the paradox. There is something in the penal code that gets a now in trouble for exposing a weeping cross Yet because of the Indian Constitution Specifically article 51 a h of the Indian Constitution He Receives money Nayak receives money to travel and teach skepticism scientific skepticism and critical thinking article 51 a h says That as part of the Indian Constitution It is a goal of the Indian government to develop the scientific temper Humanism and the spirit of inquiry and reform so under that article of the of the Constitution There is a substantial budget for this sort of public education running counter some penal Codes of various jurisdictions to get folks like Sinal and trouble. There's a robust online skeptical community in India and I Was really gratified to discover how robust the local grassroots skeptics were in India not that they have regular Anglo-seeming skeptics in the pub gatherings, but they have regular meetings and You know, we knew skeptics to travel one traveled nine hours by Train just to hear talk from Randy. So skepticism is live and is alive and well In India in the UK, I think many of us are more familiar with what's going on in the UK That's of course where skeptics in the pub and pubs sort of got their start in India was It was the location of the launch of the 1023 campaign how many people Here are familiar with the 1023 campaign the homeopathy overdose campaign really inspired by Randy's overdose of homeopathic sleeping pills there are resources online to help folks all over the world reenact that to educate the public about the irresponsible claims by Sometimes I call them homeopathetics But there's a lot of citizen skepticism around Issues of chiropractic and homeopathy Simon Singh in his public education has sort of inspired a grassroots Activism around chiropractic and reporting chiropractors that's had a great effect. I mentioned The 1023 campaign. It's really an online website that equips anyone not just folks in the UK To do an action an event in their neck of the woods to raise the alarm bells about homeopathy I'll leave the lion's share of talking about Africa to Leo and norm But what's really exciting from the J-Rest perspective right now about Africa is the work of Leo Iguay I mentioned the manifesto for skeptical Africa for a skeptical Africa and the issues Leo raises the alarm bell about include witch burning and I'll buy no superstitions that lead to Something tantamount to can cannibalism because of the religious views or I'd say superstitious views of Folks in Africa, there's AIDS denialism that has a great negative effect and So you see how the ambitions and the goals of skepticism intersect with real-world problems in the continent Leo really Is an inspiration for folks Who naturally want to just get together Have a pint or a beer and talk about another reason why ghosts don't exist or another reason maybe why God doesn't exist He's in the trenches Really defending the barricades in Canada There's a lot going on and you don't really think as an American of Canada as international skepticism But if I didn't mention it, I Imagine I'd get an earful from a couple good friends They run an analog to the to Psycop or the Committee for Skeptical Enquirer called the Committee for the Advancement of Scientific Skepticism Cass and they took in Toronto and Vancouver and other big cities a bus campaign raising questions about paranormal and pseudoscientific claims the the extraordinary claims Bus campaign they call it and here's an example of it on a bus They're working with the James Randy educational foundation to conduct a live million dollar paranormal challenge in Toronto later this year And what I really like about the international skepticism is it shows so much promise for collaboration among national organizations You'll hear from Masano probably how Chee-Cop has for decades worked very closely with Psycop and J ref to advance our shared aims in each country In Canada, they've also done the 1023 campaign And and I mentioned the million dollar challenge there, Australia There's a lot going on in Australia and Richard will touch on it as well but what I want to focus on is The skeptic school so who knew that a skeptic Middle school teacher we call the middle school teachers Can have a whole program Educating youngsters in Specifically scientific skepticism. It's not a atheist club. It's not an agenda laden Campus group, but it's about method and critical inquiry and that's an inspiration There are a lot of Public intellectuals and figures in Australia. There's Richard Richard may touch briefly on one of the greatest hits of contemporary skepticism and that's his busting of the power or He and his groups busting of the power balance Bands and there are still a couple of them floating around now J ref has a placebo band made by the same manufacturer with the logo The hologram instead the J ref logo instead of the power balance. We're out of them right now But more are in order in Australia. They've done yeoman's work around the issue of vaccines Just a lot of fantastic work there and so With that that's a sort of really quick Overview of some of these points of skepticism around the world And I'm going to pass it to Richard now so that we can run and do this other thing if Richard wants to talk a bit about other things in skepticism and Before I do that every one of these presenters today have a lot of experience Yes advancing skepticism, but realizing it's not one size fits all it's not what happens in New York City May not be as effective in Nigeria even though the agenda or the aims of skepticism in the public interest are Identical I'll I'll leave you with my one idea For how you as a skeptic can help foster skepticism around the world How many of you just by show of hands are involved in a local skeptics group? So I think that's a lion's share of folks in in here So I propose not a formal structure for this but when you go back to your neck of the woods And after hearing the presentations by our other presenters today identify a skeptics group somewhere else in the world and Connect with them you can do that through Randy.org where we have a listing of skeptics groups all over the world or Psycop also has a listing cheek cop also has some listings like throughout Italy etc and Adopt one of them or let one of them adopt you too. So in other words rather than sister cities Let's have sister skeptics groups and share ideas and resources and I think more important than Something programmatic where one group says this worked for us and you should do it too I think the communication is vital in and of itself it fosters Can we call it without sounding too grandiose a worldwide community of skepticism and? If you look at the the intellectual history of the let's say the conservative movement of the United States When they started they were sort of a laughing stock in the early 70s No one people thought the secular left had one You know there was gay lib and women's rights and civil rights and all of that and some folks got together and said You know we have to have a long-term plan for affecting culture Not only did they build institutions? That's what organized skepticism is trying to do right now with organization like Psycop and J ref and Schermer's Organization but they said we need to support the grassroots and not just grassroots locally But around the world and so but to argue by analogy and I know many of us would bristle by this But you know there are a lot of local evangelical churches who? Support and learn from other churches in other parts of the world. We are not churches. There's no such thing as a skeptic foot soldier We all suffer from Or I guess benefit from qualities that will keep us from ever being too church-like not that there's anything wrong with that But we can we can learn I think from the model of this Communication cycle or we really as local skeptics groups in the United States really try to connect with International groups and maybe Leo and Norm will also have things to say about that too. So with that I will pass it on to Richard Saunders Technology We're getting these in Australia next year actually Electricity comes the year after that first we get used to these. Thank you very much DJ and folks Let me begin straight away by Just letting you know and apologizing. I won't be here for a long time So I won't go on too long because DJ and I have other commitments here at the amazing meeting Which we hope you'll be very exciting for everybody in 1980 a Magician visited Australia a little magician with a white beard And conducted a very famous set of water-divining Tests which were filmed with in a year the Australian skeptics was formed. That's exactly what DJ was saying his Randy going around the world inspiring people now. This is 1980 1981 the very first issue of our magazine With great imagination, it's called the skeptic appeared And I would be not doing my job unless I told you that at the end of the hall You'll find the Australian skeptics table where you too can try your hand at water-divining and More importantly, and I make no apology for this We would encourage you and this gets back to supporting local skepticism what Americans can do or the international community Can do to support us in Australia? One of the most tangible things you can do is subscribe to our magazine and you can do it online And you can get our magazine which has been going since 1981 delivered to your email four times a year and not only that if you're really cheap about it you can go to our website www.skeptics.com.au and Feel free to browse over 30 years. What is it now 30? Two years or whatever it is of our magazine which are free for you to read online You can just help yourself the latest issues obviously Subscription but after a year or two you're free and we feel that's a valuable resource for everybody around the world Thank you very much DJ for mentioning the power band situation to me It's hard for me to take so much credit for that because obviously no one person Does all these things? I was in the very fortunate position of being able on national television to test the Australian Representative of power balance and he which I will be talking about later He failed five out of five tests and it was quite excruciating that Avalanche do a series of events which eventually brought down the power balance company, but strangely enough We remember the slide of the skeptic school Not long after that was happening in fact not long after Tam, Australia in 2010 I was visiting Melbourne with a couple of the people from Tam, Australia and we gave a public talk in that public talk I gave the power balance demonstrations The teacher you saw in that picture Adam van Langenberg was there in the audience and that Demonstration inspired him to then go on and form his Skeptical club in his school and I was very honored to go and speak to that club not long after that Isn't it strange that something like power balance? Led to the formation of a skeptical club in a school So every cloud I guess every cloud has a silver lining DJ I was very kind when he was mentioning some of the enormous successes. We've had in Australia, especially when it comes to the anti-vaccination crowd and I am very fortunate to be president of Simply the most dazzling committee of the Australian skeptics based in Sydney and there are the skeptical groups obviously around Australia But the dedication and the the work they go through and I know that there are some Australians in the audience hand up hands up Holy moly there's more than I thought Now can you imagine folks for me being the president of Australian skeptics here in Las Vegas to look at a room this size of the number of People here in the percentage of Australians who are so interested in skepticism. They've come here to the amazing meeting That's that's great that that fills me with great confidence And I'm so pleased to see so many Australians here supporting the J ref and supporting international skepticism but Getting back to the core of people I work with the tireless work They've been doing over years with setbacks and setbacks and setbacks. It's really really bearing fruit in Australia with now Members of our federal Parliament standing up and making speeches condemning Anti-vaccination and anti-vaccination groups. I'm just gobsmacked. It's so heartening and it's such it's such good news Apart from that we still Keep our roots our skeptic our skeptical roots in the good old stuff and I particularly think of water divining in fact earlier This year I took part in the largest test of water divining ever held and we did we did this in the state of Victoria on a blazing hot Day we tested all their runs of over 80 or 85 I haven't got the exact figures of water divining People from all over the country came the the classic water diviners mums and dads and everybody had a go We report on that on the magazine now some people would say It's why after all these years even James Randy did it originally all those years ago Why do it? Why don't you just devote all your? Efforts to things like anti-vaccination and other issues well I think it's really important every now and then to remember where we came from and doing something like water divining not only puts us in touch with where Skepticism came from or one of its its roots It also gives us a chance to interact with real true believers and really nice people and Run tests and understand the psychology of running a test and the protocols and everything you have to do and dealing with people Don't underestimate those important things and we'll be testing water diviners again It doesn't mean then we then don't put our efforts towards what we may consider more important things of course Of course we do that but don't forget. It's important to keep the basics Look look at the research for UFOs big foots and monsters. They're good fun. That's why I got in the skepticism I really did but I do realize that we have bigger fish to fry which we do and One of the members of the strange skeptics committee Joe Benamue is here in the audience She's also involved with a group Joe Joe Benamue is involved with a very worthwhile group in Australia called the friends of science in medicine as a group of academics professors and so on who are fighting the encroaching Alternative medicine modalities in our universities especially and Making the universities putting them to account saying why are you teaching this? This is out without scientific foundation It's it's an important battle to very important. I'm very pleased to be That the Australian skeptics are in some way involved in that Getting back to how you can help again. Let me say I encourage you to have come up to our table Please look at our magazine. I hope you subscribe. That does help us enormously Getting back to generating income and funds so we can keep doing what we do and I hope and I know that our efforts in Australia do inspire other groups around the world which is just What more could you ask for I guess it's really heartening for someone like me to see that Apart from that we we have a lot of fun in Australia, but I'll leave you with this note in This November last year we had the Australian Skeptics National Convention in Melbourne and one of our special guests was James Randy He went to speak at that very school Where Adam van Langenberg has his skeptical? Club in front of a huge audience It was a record heatwave on that day in Melbourne. It was over a hundred degrees the auditorium's air conditioning failed and Randy still did his show why the rest of us were sitting backstage Trying to cope with the enormous heat. I think DJ was flaked out on the floor somewhere I don't know where Too hot we were what and what? He's doing his thing and where we're ready with the stretcher any minute now this pork Someone brought a fan on stage, which was useless because it was too hot for a fan. There was cups of water and if I If I had respect for James Randy before then I have even more now that he battled through the most Atrocious conditions to pass on his message to the school kids So yeah, it was it was something I mean I'm doing that at 84. I'll be pretty impressed myself So that's what's happening in Australia. Please come and visit us at the table. We have musticks for everybody Thank you Come and say hi to me Joe Benamu and my other friends from Australia will be there and some other helpers from around the world And with that note, thank you very much. Thank you then by DJ Richard See you later then so now We know we don't have it right Disappears somehow it's not arrived yet. We think You try to find and send him over here, okay so good friends We have about a bit less than an hour. I think and so we're gonna hear Your presentations and we have also a bit of time with the for your questions. I think it's interesting to interact a bit I'll tell you a little bit about Italy what we're doing and what we Hoping to do in the future. Italy's group named cheek up The name was chosen. It's a long name a Italian committee for them Checkup controls was chosen just because it sounded like check up cheek up Not one Italian got it, of course But we keep the name even though we are changing the the whole wording of it because the paranormal in Italy It's always alive, but it's it's something of the past I mean, we were born 19 at the end of the 1980s where still you'd get the regal is it All the table lifters Dowses and so on but now today it's more fringe science. It's more Conspiracy theories and urban legends and you know very well how it is so it to identify yourself as Paranormal investigators today sounds a bit in Italy at least In that context sounds a bit outdated and you also put yourself like an odd character In reality you're talking about science. You're talking about how to approach And how to promote critical thinking anyway As I said, we were born about 25 years ago next year. It's going to be our 25th anniversary, so we have a big conference coming up and And we have a chance we've had a chance to investigate like really dozens and dozens of cases and expose Many frauds and and not only frauds, but also investigate Normal people that really come to us thinking they have paranormal powers And maybe on my talk on Sunday you will see some of it some examples of this as Randy does because the the million-dollar challenge is Valuable over the world and we perform the The approaching tests, let's say if they pass our test and they go to do the test with Randy Of course, nobody even passed the the preliminary test, right? However, since we have the support of all the major scientists in Italy Nobel Prize winners and The founder of our committee is a science journalist who in Italy is popular like it would be Carl Sagan or Richard Dawkins so very very prominent figures since the end of the 1960s now is as the same age as Randy, but he still has his prime-time science TV show on national television, which is the still It's now many years the most seen TV show when it is on he was our founder and Through him we were able to get the support of all the scientific community in Italy and that allowed us to Have a credibility in the beginning with the press with the general with the public and With that credibility we built in 25 years Like a point of reference for the public and for the journalists and and today we have an office We have a staff of two people there are being paid and the only way in which we raise money of course is not by public fundings by state whatever but subscription and and Memberships we have members all over Italy, but not not that many you think that In order to to do what we do because we as I said we have a staff working with an office We publish a magazine we keep lectures all through Italy. We have about 15 local groups that we maintain and that you're organized Activities in the territory we perform tests We're on television on radio and we we write columns in many newspapers and magazines So we keep the message alive in many forms podcasts videocasts and so on But as I said since we don't receive any fundings we have to rely on memberships and we had you know Europe is passing still is passing through a crisis and And we saw our memberships Slowing down a lot. So last year a few months ago actually we We issued a statement saying that if we if we were not able to raise to double at least our memberships We could not survive and in two weeks the memberships doubled that was quite impressive but what we found out is that Our supporters the people that follow our work which are on Facebook and Twitter and whatever you count them in Tens of thousands because they subscribe and you see them They don't even realize that we needed that kind of support. We saw them they saw us doing so many things They thought they don't need it So what we found is that you have to tell them, you know, that's that's helpful. We need your help otherwise we cannot perform and well, but our situation again, maybe is is a lucky situation because We have so much support. There are other realities where they the It's much more difficult and I think that what that is this is what we are going to talk about now with our guests So I would like to ask you which one would like to To go first maybe You have to set up your computer Okay while he's going you may be you may set up your own computer Okay, I've known Leo for quite a while now he started his group way back in the 1990s and We've been working together and I've had the opportunity as I said earlier to travel to Africa But not only Africa. I've also been to Latin America and I would like to discuss a little bit about Latin America too Because that wasn't mentioned earlier during my trips to Africa, I've come across a lot of Problems and I've come across a lot of differences in culture and DJ was saying earlier about how When you go to different parts of the world, they have different different ways and they have different You have to respond to different situations differently and so when I went to Africa, I noticed that there were some similarities, but there are also some major differences in skepticism and the the types of the types of Problems that they had to deal with and the types of approaches that they would need to deal with When I first went to Africa back in 1991, I didn't go as a skeptic primarily I went as a humanist and They had problems in that there wasn't much in the media about skepticism about humanism or free that and so when I went there It was the very first time that they had a major presentation of humanism in the media They had the Ghanaian Broadcasting Corporation, which was the only television station They had in the entire country, but it was the first time they had Exposure to secular humanism on their national television program And they also to a lesser degree had it on their national radio Program the Ghanaian Broadcasting Corporation and so it was history making and When I was there we had front-page news and their in their newspapers and everything So it was very good to a finally be able to go to that nation and to have humanism presented After it was presented. They had a program on the Ghanaian Broadcasting Corporation called Contemplation and they were inviting various Religiousness from all over the country to discuss their views. They would have people one there from the Mormon religion They would have people from throughout various Christian religions and Islam and after my presentation We had a local group there called the Rational Center And so they decided it would be good to finally have some humanists on the program And so the humanists were able to finally go on national TV and present their world view But the problem is that there were people there who were opposed to what they were doing and they didn't really think that The people should be exposed to a non-religious world view And there were so many people that complained about it that eventually they decided to cancel the contemplation Program all together So back then those were the types of problems you had to deal with if you were trying to present Humanism or skepticism on the African continent, but since then we've come a long way a since then we've we have Humanists and skeptics groups all over one of the most impressive groups I've been to was the skeptics group in in Senegal and I went to Senegal back in 2008 and Leo E. Gray was there as well and it was the very first skeptics conference they had on the continent and it was very well attended and It was covered by the major media and there were also major scientists there who expressed interest and They had some major science popularizers there who are also expressing interest and one thing That was very interesting about is that they had a they'd been able to establish strong contacts with very young people in elementary Schools and they were they were looked up to as scientists by some of these young people They were able to go there and we were able to present them with books back then we had a Children's book on skepticism Came out by Prometheus books and we were able to hand those out We were able to give them gifts such as notebooks and other things to help them with their studies And so in that way the skeptics were reaching out to very young people And they were doing so in such a way that the young people were responding not only to them But but to their message There was a similar Program in Uganda and Uganda they have a few humanist schools And I went to one school in which they had a skeptics a skeptics meeting a skeptics group And they were meeting on a regular basis and so over there We were able to talk to very young people Leo and I went to an elementary school in Gambia and we were able to talk about Skepticism there the teachers they were very open to what we had to say the students for very Interested and the Leo he gave a very good presentation And which he had copies of the skeptical Inquirer and he was giving them out to people not for answering questions but for asking questions You know thereby promoting the importance of critical inquiry and skepticism and so in Africa Do you have a lot of young people who are interested in skepticism and Humanism in the United States and in Europe you'll find that many of the organized skeptics and humanists are older But I just received an email from Leo a couple days ago In which there's a group of humanist free thinkers and in Kenya now And there's a new group. It's a Facebook group and they're coming out in droves and the It was pointed out in that article that in Kenya the average non-believer is only 20 years old whereas in Europe and and Japan It's like 34 years old so for some reason in Africa very young people are very much interested in skepticism And so that looks very encouraging and they need us to be involved in to help them to grow and to do certain things to Help them to to make a dent because they have so many Superstitions and so many problems that it's hard for us to relate to for example We were talking about witchcraft and Leo will discuss some of that later a witchcraft Hasn't been a problem in the United States for centuries, but all over Africa now in Malawi and Nigeria Kenya numerous other countries you have women and girls who are persecuted and in the cues of being witches and That's one reason Leo likes to focus so much on witchcraft because Though this is the problem that hasn't Reson in Europe or the United States in centuries. It's a very big problem in Africa today. So that would be their their focus there's a group in Malawi and The group now is headed by a man named George then what and George then what has his own challenge Where is he is offering a lot of money to anyone who can prove that they have the powers of a witch He asked people from all over Malawi to be witch him if they have the power to do so and just like with J ref and and the Center for Inquiry His money is very safe people have come out people have Have said that they they have the powers but so far no one has passed the challenge So it's good to see that in Africa that they're having the same types of presentations that you'll see in the Western world But some of their superstitions are are very strange For example when I was in Africa back in 2008. I learned that they have superstitions against girls eating eggs I don't know exactly why that is but for some reason girls are not supposed to eat eggs They had superstitions about girls playing sports. So a girls are not supposed to be involved in sports But in response to that there's an organization you gone to got the woman of the free world organization and These women are humanists and they're promoting humanism to young girls on a regular basis and what they've done is come up with a soccer club called the Amitos girls soccer club and This is as far as I know the only humanist soccer club in the world And they go around and it is very good because in the United States You know we have title nine and and young girls are out competing in numerous sports But in Africa it's still taboo in certain places for girls to be involved in sports So I was able to inaugurate the Amitos girls soccer club back in 2008 And it was very exciting to see these young girls for the first time running around and their soccer uniforms and kicking brand new soccer balls and You know to them it was it was extremely liberating is something they couldn't take for granted But it's something that was very empowering and it was very good to be a part of that So it's good to see that over there. They're trying to fight superstition through sports They fight superstition through plays Through music and our music is very big over there and a lot of times in a lot of these humanist gatherings You'll have good music. I remember back When I helped to organize in Nigeria the first major Humanist conference in Sub-Saharan Africa in which Leo Invited some of very good singers and some of the best dancers I've ever seen and it's this type of entertainment that goes a long way to promote skepticism and humanism in Africa so in different parts of the world people are drawing upon different experiences and They're trying off drawing upon their cultures in order To help them promote humanism skepticism and free that There are also superstitions over there and the conspiracy theories that are very dangerous Back in 2005 You had Muslims in northern Nigeria who were in opposition to Treatment for polio at one time Nigeria had eliminated polio altogether, but you had Muslim extremists in Nigeria who were coming out and saying that their children should not be should not get the polio vaccine and As a result polio came back to that nation, but not only did it come back to Nigeria It also spread to other nations and you had Nigerian Muslims who were making the hodge to Mecca and as a result And when they went to Mecca, they were spreading polio. And so a lot of these conspiracy theories Aren't just their rational, but they're extremely dangerous And it's important that whenever we have skeptics in Africa who are willing to Take on this type of conspiratorial thinking that they do get the support here in the United States that we can give them You also have AIDS deniers in Africa and a Gambia their president president Yama he came out and You know, he had all types of conspiracy theories and when you have the president of a country who was into the AIDS denial, you know, that's different than having just some crackpot from you know from a local town or what have you so You've had the same type of problem in South Africa a few years ago when President summa Was was in Empower, you know, he was promoting this, you know all types of AIDS nonsense and You know, this is this is a problem that isn't only in Africa You see it in the United States and among African-Americans you have a lot of people who buy into it the AIDS conspiracy theory that AIDS was created in the lab specifically to target African-Americans and gays and You know this type of conspiratorial conspiratorial thinking Occurs in the United States not just among African-Americans, but among Americans in general and among white Americans there are people who as you know used to buy into the birther conspiracy theory and some still do so a lot of these conspiracy theories are You know, they have a racial component, you know, sometimes Black people will buy into certain conspiracy theories and sometimes white people will buy into certain conspiracy theories but as skeptics It's good to to support those who are out there fighting against those conspiracy theories and I'm happy that I was able to be involved To a to a large extent in Africa and helping to bring this about There are also other parts of the world in which Skepticism has taken root or which needs to take root. I mentioned earlier about Latin America I had a chance to go to Latin America to Peru To Argentina and to some other nations and they're doing very good work down there as well promoting skepticism I went to major conferences in Peru and Mexico and in Argentina and it's good to see that we were able to unite various Humanists throughout Latin America about about four or five years ago. We had a major Federation of Latin American humanists, so it's good to see that humanism And skepticism were taking off in other parts of the world for so long It was just something you would see in Europe or the United States, but now it really is an international movement last year I went to the first major humanist conference in the Philippines and I was there to promote a humanism, but my brother helped to To put forth that group he helped to establish it and he asked me to discuss skepticism because he said over in the Philippines there are so many Paranormal claims which seem to be just as big as some of the religious claims Philippines is the only predominantly Catholic nation in Asia but they still have beliefs and witches and ghosts and goblins and vampires and so They they are in need of skepticism and they would like to have people support them with skepticism sending them literature Sending people over there to speak with them and they have a very good movement going over there in the Philippines now just last month they had a major conference of Not just Filipino humanists, but they had people coming in from various parts of Southeast Asia From Thailand and from China Japan South Korea and numerous other parts of the world so skepticism and humanism are growing and You know, I think that one of the things we can do most is to respect the way That people in different parts of the world promote skepticism rather than try to impose what we believe needs to be their way of Responding to skepticism to understand that they can promote it in their own way But to be there to give them the support that they need another thing we could do is to help provide websites and with the Institute for Science and Human Values and There are a lot of people in poor countries who just don't really have have access to websites but if we can help to help them provide websites, they can get their message out there and You know, it really goes a far away So those are a couple of things that I think we can do I'll be interested in hearing from everyone else doing a Q&A session I think right now Dio is about ready to go and so Yeah, thank you friends We're having some problems setting up the PowerPoint so but I have something I have written out so I would have just make my presentation and hopefully maybe We we saw that that just a moment Well, do we need skepticism in Africa? Do we need science doing a critical thinking? The answer is yes And I'll tell you three stories one personal One that maybe consents a country Malawi Then one that consents One about Nigeria and of course Ghana where I'm doing my field work. Now when I was 10 years Two of my cousins came to our house early in the morning and They beat my father to a coma. What happened? There was a rumor that My cousins wanted to use my mother for money rituals In other words in my in my country Nigeria They believe that you can use human body parts and go to a witch doctor and the witch doctor will make you rich Yes so When there's such such speculation people are always afraid People are always, you know, there's this tension and all that so I was asking my father what happened What happened they told me oh, you will not understand Fifteen years. I will not understand 20 years 30 years. I will not understand. What is this thing? I don't understand Under what condition? How can you how can you produce money using human body parts? Now this is in in a part of Nigeria where you have some of the poorest people They still believe you can make money using human body parts and because of that belief From time to time you see maybe along the streets in the bush and you see some people You know mutilated you see the bodies of people with our heads without the genital organs without interest And I kept asking this question What are they what are they using human body parts for? What are they using human genitals? Under what condition will they turn to money? Nobody was ready Nobody could to could tell me could answer this question for me Now there was also disbelief that some people could You know destroy others or kill others spiritually Now people keep dying of hunger malaria Other diseases accidents, but they still believe that they could kill some other people's spiritual. How? So these are questions. I was asking these questions and nobody was ready to give me answers So as I was growing and I found out that people were not ready to provide answers Then I started inquiring I started investigating That's how I slowly, you know move, you know Got into the humanist skeptic free thought movement Now and I found out that it was not only my country. It was also in other countries in 2008 I Went to I went to Malawi In Malawi they told me that Over 50 people over 50 women were in jail What what did they do that they were injured for witchcraft? Now, how did how did they get into jail? How did they try them? And they told us that maybe some children Confessed in court and the confession was accepted as evidence and they were convicted So I told I told the our local contact To organize a campaign we launched a campaign in Malawi and friends within one year 45 of around 50 some of around a 50 something women who are in jail we are released and Within the next six months of within two years all of them we're out of jail. There was no case Because I told I told I told our local contact person. I said there's no case here in Malawi Witchcraft accusation is a crime But you know when people keep quiet The judges will now look at the case and the people that should be in jail will be out of jail And the people that should not be out of you should be outside the jail will be in jail. That was exactly what happened But but they needed a voice someone has to speak out and Immediately somebody spoke out They just released them. That's what happened But there are places where people are still not speaking out For instance in Ghana We are currently doing my fieldwork in Ghana Witchcraft is a crime and You have in Ghana there's the belief is that you can kill somebody spiritually You can cause accidents spiritually you can cause divorce any problem You can you can you can you know cause that spiritually, you know The belief there is that when something goes wrong when anybody suffers misfortune They believe that there's somebody spiritually behind that now They have a witch camp Okay, I'm alive now Good so now this is a shrine Where people accused of witchcraft are tried This woman was tried By this young boy by the end there And this is the broom they use and this boom is believed that with the broom you can the gods can catch somebody Who is a witch? We're talking about fakery How do we fight fakers? Friends, these are the fakers These are the people who provide fake claims of witchcraft They call them the suceas And right here my because my somebody dies they will go and bring the suceas and ask them to Identify who killed the person. That's what they were that's what they were doing here That's another should say He uses calories And when he throws it on the ground he will be selling at it as if there's something he's seen he's seen nothing But he'll be looking at it and you'll be taking him seriously and he'll be shaking his head as if there's something he's communicating with is fake But people will go there and they will tell you oh that old woman in your family is responsible for a problem How do you know through the calories? Friends you can see that they also advertise The traditional shrine and Harvelle Center is here any problem you have the shrine master is there to help you Now do you know the irony the shrine master doesn't speak English? So I was wondering who set up this time post Good now. I went to a witch camp. We have people accused of witchcraft are driven We had it where they are settled where they take refuge and I saw this eggs Red cloth and all that and I was told that a suit say I must have done that must have recommended that they put it At the crossroad so that somebody could use that maybe to ward off misfortune and all that inside the witch camp now They have seven camps in the north of Ghana. This is one of the camps They have a chief they have a chief priests. There are 113 of them Some of them have their children with them. They're only women and they live in single huts They engage in farming and fetching firewood In order to get you get the daily bread and are supported by two NGOs This is the second camp. This one is managed by a woman. She's a priestess They live in huts They're just five of them. There are no children there This isn't the other camp is called in any camp. This is the only camp that has men They have over 80 men driven up from their communities and they live in huts and makes ships shelters like this This is the gushegou camp. That's another camp is also Located in a very remote part of the northern region of Ghana and we have some people who settled in the communities and some people Who settled in the land are located by the chief? It has no priests and there are no rituals This is the nabule camp is also one of the camps They created when there was a local conflict and those who belong to a particular tribe had to move away because of the conflict This is a passing a camp. That's another place Women settle it also has a spritz But the huts we are renovated by a NGO called the World Vision. I think it's the first if they fed based organization and They live in a particular section of the village This is a gambaga camp and that's the oldest camp. That was the first camp where it all started and Here they have a hall and The infrastructure I think is better here than you know than in other camps the chief is not only the political head is also the chief priests and They are active in politics. They voted in election. They're also supported by local NGOs and The presbyterian church is active in this very camp Now there is what I call the child which come disabled children abandoned They are branded evil children and are thrown away. So there is a particular Camp that takes care of these children and some of the children I saw they have problem with their legs and they have a problem, you know, they were born disabled and have different Problems health problems and all that so they are kept in this camp because they were abandoned by their families They say that we children. They are evil children Now this woman was accused by the daughter The daughter was ill for several for a long period and accused the mother because she saw the mother in the dream Immediately you see somebody in a dream in the north of Ghana. That is evidence in Controvertible evidence for them now What do we do? In terms of what we're going to do I'm making I'm suggesting that we provide training for our contact patients in these camps If you go to the camps, there's no record of anything. When did this come study? It started before our forefathers when nobody has idea of the date how number and all that so I'm proposing that we're gonna we should develop a database and assess the needs of the people in the camps So that we know how to intervene. I'm also proposing a dialogue with the accusers and the accused Because people keep going to the camps to settle. There are no structures there. There are no support system systems there so I'm also thinking that there's a need for us to go back to the communities and try to Dialogue with them and see how we can stop the problem For instance, this man was seen in a dream by a child The child I'm holding here He was he was sitting in a dream by a child and he was driven out by this community The community members are right there at the background So and I have been telling them that that you see somebody in the dream doesn't mean the person is responsible for any problem You have but for them they cannot listen to that because of what they believe Now these are the fake as you know when we talk about which craft we think that is all about women This is a which finder who is a woman? I've visited her and this is a suit sayer who is a man So sometimes you also see women involved in Which hunting and in identifying witches Now we need to support the victims Some of these are no woman I met coming back from the stream And all that and I was wondering how many times this woman will go to the stream with a walking stick So some of them also are living in makeshift shape tiles and all that so they need some support in order to You know live comfortably at least Till the time they will return home if ever they will So I also proposed that we have some kind of dialogue with their families So that to reason them out of the superstitions to reason them out of the rational beliefs Is really challenging is difficult because in most cases it involves death or diseases And then I was with a family some weeks ago, and they were telling me they were furious They say that another family killed their brother and that and they were asking me Do you believe that somebody can kill another person spiritually and I asked them with what? If you kiss somebody's which I wanted you use match it gone stick Yeah, so they believe that even though they can't tell you what exactly the person used So there's a need for some kind of dialogue Then we have to dialogue with the youths many of the young people grow up with this belief And they go into more action immediately against anybody who is accused We have to build trust with local leaders because many of them are the ones that have betrayed the judge They handle these cases So we have to build trust with them as a way to get gain access in terms of dialoguing with the communities So how can American skeptics help us? Yes, you can adopt a camp You can also choose to support somebody in the camp in any of the camps So you can visit Or volunteer to assist the victims you can also fundraise for us because we need always in order to Get on with our work Again, how what else can you do you can help us publicize the programs post the news and reports on your blogs Put them on your website propose it as a topic of discussion Draw the attention of your congressmen and women to the situation draw the attention of a human rights group or a development agency In your area to this issue. That's how you can help us Yes, because sometimes the world doesn't know what is going on. They just think oh, yeah, Africa and witchcraft. How what are the details? Yes It's important that people know graphically what is going on is a tragic situation is a humanitarian disaster And it's as a result of a rationalism and superstition and we need to let the world know that we need to use this Opportunity to make a case for reason in Africa So what else can you do? Keep supporting Jeref and As I was going around I saw this hospital a men scientific heba hospital So when you visit so in case you take ill this is a hospital of interest They provide safe and effective complimentary and alternative medicine And if you look up there, you know what they are what is their motto? God is the healer. Thank you Thank you there We have been reached by Sinal at the Morocco and Yes First of all apologies for coming late because I've been traveling 30 hours to reach Las Vegas from Helsinki, that's a new approach where I'm doing I Move to Helsinki as you know And you're back because the secular India Where in the Constitution? It is demanded from all citizens to have scientific temperament critical inquiry and humanism as their fundamental duties If you expose a miracle it could be disastrous for you I did not know this thing for a long time and the situation is getting quite worse in India these days For example last 30 years I have been Campaigning I've been reaching out people. We have so many different wonderful active groups in India and We Really reach out the people at villages In India, for example, we have a million villages where the people are shattered in small places and 80% of the population lives in the villages not in the urban area So 1995 We initiated a special campaign to reach out people because still then we thought discussions academic Dialogues and all would make some impact because that will educate more people to reach out people But we really decided to go to the people and really talk to people and that was a novel idea and we all quite young people at that time and lack of resources of course for such a gigantic program we thought of reaching out a thousand villages in 100 districts and selected in We have 400 districts and a hundred villages would be covering almost one fourth of the population is what we thought But how do you do it? We didn't have money So we had one one 18 people and I mean some funds to start with and we just went village to village Talk directly to people asked or understood what exactly are the kind of superstitions and kind of paranormal Believes that are there that they are living with but the kind of things in India are I mean it's Unbelievable if you go to a village The entire population lives under the influence of astrology The lay life is controlled with astrology and gurus and local whole holy men and we have quite a lot of them Nearly a hundred thousand holy men we have in India everywhere scattered and they control the lives of the Individuals and once you are in contact with the guru. He controls your entire life for a marriage for your Child's education everything is I mean a dweist by these people and they are quite professionals to keep you under the control And these people are known as tantric also They are considered very very powerful and their winning point is all of them could do a lot of magical Things so they could produce holy ash by a moment of a hand. They could spit fire small things which Primary standards. I mean science student could easily do but the villages simply take it But not only villages. That's one thing which we have been shocking all the time For example, India has a very powerful space research When when a satellite is launched even last week when the satellite was launched the chief of Indian Scientific Search Institute Makes a replica of the satellite and makes make special prayers Where not in a temple but in the scientific Institute and brings up I mean a holy man there and Makes a special worship to avoid all obstacles What they have to do is to make a coconut break in front of the elephant face God and he will care Take care of it and the time is not decided by scientists in most cases, but by astrologers auspicious time So that's that's the level of superstition that is existing in India But down in villages the real people who are affected we thought of reaching out dumb first and This campaign has made the work of the Indian rationalist. I mean, that's a term we use in India I mean quite well known in the country We reached out villages and villages talk to people 25 people or 100 people 300 people I mean small groups and it simply spread like wildfire And after 20 days we found that we are hitting the newspapers We didn't plan it but every local newspaper was reporting it because it was attracting a lot of people and by one month I got a call from BBC. I Mean, it's already reported internationally the campaign is going like a wildfire everywhere because we equipped everywhere 10 or 20 young people and asked them to go to the next places with their friends and Replicate it the idea was we go to one place means we should be able to replicate it at 10 places in the next two weeks so it was spreading so widely and BBC came with us and they travel with us for some weeks and they made a documentary named in the guru busters So that was you can see I mean in that thing the initial part where we are having 300 or 400 people at later part thousands of people I Mean everywhere. I mean the news was so well and reached out so well and we became a national presence in India and this encouraged a lot of people the movement is very active very vibrant and Now in the television times we are in television everywhere we have nearly 200 television channels in India in all languages and the Activities are reported but also very active dialogues and discussions are going on openly and they've got the courage now 20 10 20 years back when the first televisions private televisions came in India We had only one television before that the national television the government's television So they're only government programs are reported So then when the private television first came they were afraid for example when they interviewed me I should not use the word Satya Sai Baba that's a very famous holy man who died recently That was the first 10 days. I got because that can be stopped I should not use the word and I should not use any word Hindu a Miracle man these kind of words without that I should speak that was the situation 20 years back but now Imagine that my kind of a very outspoken person appearing something like 250 television programs every year and directly encountering all these kind of people and It can be at many places. This has provoked a lot of discussions. I mean a lot of Momentum in the whole structure and It's generally considered that there's a silent revolution happening in India Not seen outside not seen publicly but in the roots of India big change is happening and therefore Last two years we see a lot of opposition coming up in very different ways for example anybody who is Emerging powerful I tried to be stopped So especially when you come out from a television studio, I heard news that in Andhra Pradesh One of our friends have been attacked outside So I was never facing such things Or somebody publishing a small booklet Translating Legally not bad literature. He's just arrested for that Huttings somebody's religious sentiments So then we found In 2009 and know a law is being used against rationalist at different places. It was small test doses at different places We have a constitution made in 1950, but the laws in India are made in 1860 During the colonial times the Indian penal code and it has a law That tells that if anybody huts the religious sentiments of anybody and if I feel that my religious sentiments are hutch All I have to do is to make a complaint. I Can be arrested Without an arrest warrant and need not be produced to court of law immediately. I can be kept for my safety In any number of days in in in in the custody or I cannot apply for a bail. It's non-bailable Such a law existed but never used So at many places we found that this law is I mean tried at local places So we tried to respond it slowly and try start educating people how I mean how to fight it out but The test doses which which was tried at different places was in fact aiming at a larger thing So it came to me later That was I mean I have publicly exposed to most powerful Hollywood in India like such a cyber when he Came to I mean delhi and perform his miracles in front of a I mean huge audience He moved his hand and produce holy ash and the prime minister visits him or the At one time we had the prime minister the president of India the chief justice of India the speaker of the Parliament all were his disciples And at the same time I could go to another television channel and this report is coming and Publicly say that he's a fraudster and I can replicate whatever he's doing and I had listening sent I mean that was possible in India So I was very proud of a secular India where freedom of speech is guaranteed Lot of stupidities are there abnormal stupidities are existing But I have a right to fight it out and I am capable of doing that and I'm capable of mobilizing people And I was so sure India was changing and it was been influencing the whole population but Last year When I comparatively smaller Christian community in India, we have only two percent Christians in India, but quite powerful The Catholic Church is especially very very powerful because of the political connections The chief of the ruling party is a Roman Catholic coming from Italy She was the wife of one of the former prime ministers and So the Catholic bishops feel that they're very very powerful and The whole political system, which is absolutely based on psychofency does not Take an arm up against anything that that could touch the Catholic Church because that could You know eventually had leader That's the kind of mindset people have so I with the background of a Catholic father and a Hindu mother. I knew quite well about the Catholic structures. Otherwise I Have gone to Mumbai To see a miracle which was getting very popular very fast a crucifix Was leaking water from the feet and they said Jesus is weeping And why should he weep no one knows but the some water drippers were coming in from the feet. I've gone there and you know later when I see how Carefully they have been they have invaded me because I spoke about this and the church invades me to come and study Then and after after you should have empirical evidences about what you're speaking. So we welcome you to come This is what they publicly said. So therefore I've gone with their permission I've gone there and the moment I reach there the priest comes to me and give me a small hammer Why don't you hit the statue and see if there is some water trapped it? I immediately knew what is meant if I take the hammer in my hand and I mean if I'm a fool I would just hit the statue they take 100 photographs next moment Say they say that we didn't permit it and he has been trying to smash our statue That was the intent Very clear and I immediately understood I refused then somebody says that one of your assistants can dig the floor and see whether it's water All intended to trap me. I smelt it at that time also But I decided because there was a television crew with me and I've verified the whole area and I found that Well, they've been distributing this water There was a prayer going on when I reached there and they've been giving water for people in their palm They could lick it everybody was drinking the water brought to me old. So I refused to take it But I asked for sample Which later proved that it has equally bad cheer Quite a lot a million times more than human tolerance And what I found was the most interesting thing at that moment I went behind the the statue and there was a wall and there was a small toilet there and The toilet had a lot of leaking water from sides and coming through small drainage pipe and I went through the drainage line and everywhere where it goes on the wall that is I mean wetness Dampen and and algae is growing there, which means there was water present for quite some time and it was all leaking I followed it. They came just behind the statue on the wall there. It goes down to be connected to the drainage It's just toilet water going on there Then there was a cover for it and by force I removed it. It was thinking terribly it was just toilet water blocked there and that is what was sucked up with capillary action and And like like I mean and then on the wall it was present and then I went to the statue On the feet. There's a nail to fix Jesus there I mean and before that above that there is no water presents and from the nail down there is water So the and it was a cement base and the cement walls we are Taking up water and this has gone up and drain through the nail hole and drain through the feet So I collected the sample and it proved that it is just toilet water Nothing else and that has been officially, you know given to people to drink to cure their ailments and Once I understood this thing they wanted me to explain it publicly to the audience there again That was another trap to attack me there. I Refused to talk there because I knew I mean what I understood and I had documented evidence with photographs and All I mean all details I've collected so at 9 o'clock Prime show I was invited in the television to speak about this Of course the church asked them to stop it that I should not speak the channel decided to go with the program But they have agreed that after 10 minutes that I get to explain this thing There'll be a dialogue a discussion Where church representatives also can and defend their miracle So they sent not one person, but five people the priest the trustee of the local church Supreme Court the federal court educate five people came on the other side I explained in in in in ten minutes with photographs and pictures and small videos and It worked very well because on an average a thousand people have been visiting this Crucifix to witness it every day and the next day onwards. There was no single person going there The miracle is over. It's wound up completely, but I had to run away from the country the next in the in the television discussion Five people came so hysterically and they defended the miracle telling that water will never climb up I mean God slow is that water goes only down and I mean it's it's a it's a Scientific absurdity that water can climb up through capillary action this kind of arguments go on a live television and They say that holy water works. It has cured people Cancer was cured other ailments were cured and a limping person was walking all this with water but Half the way I think the bishop understood what damage these people are making and the bishop himself wanted to be in the program and The bishop joins the program half the way the Mumbai Bishop Comes for a dialogue in the discussion and he starts with one sentence well You are ignorant Everybody is born ignorant and I counted it simply said I thought I mean till now. I was told that everybody is born sinner not ignorant And so it started on that and then the kind of argument the bishop made was very funny He said the whole scientific development in the western world has been caused and the reason behind it is Catholic Church We made it because there was a pointy fecal scientific Institute that is responsible for scientific development. I Mean I said I would I cannot I don't want to argue on that I think but I would like to bring two witnesses from history To answer it one is Gennado Bruno. The other would be Galileo Galilei So then you know what he said You know what Galileo did? After all he has apologized He has apologized to the Catholic Church and you have to apologize to and I demand your apology right now If not, you'll face the consequences in a live television program. He asked it. I said I refuse number one Rather you should apply this to the people For distributing dirty water claiming that it's holy water Bishop felt angry and he walks out And of course when the program was over there was a small crowd waiting for me Outside and I was kept inside The channel had came and I mean we had some dinner in state this studio later at four o'clock in the morning I was taken out carefully from the back door and and I flew to Delhi but this was a Well-prepared plan that was I mean Happening next day 17 cases were filed against me under this old law at 17 different police stations in Mumbai and Which means that if I come out from one case, there's another case waiting 17 different people seven 17 different police stations. It was reported in the press I didn't take it very serious. I did not really think it would work against me because I thought I'm quite powerful and My my I mean media presence is quite quite. I'm strong but slowly it started avalanching and The police started contacting me and I mean, of course I my lawyer suggested that you have to go There's only one remedy possible. You can go for an anticipatory bail anticipating an arrest You can say that I would like to have a bail if I'm arrested. It's not bailable So I go to the court Expecting an arrest. I asked for an anticipatory bail The court, you know, they don't want to touch a matter of faith They say that well, they don't reject my case on merit. They said technically since it's in Mumbai Why don't you go to Mumbai and apply for a bail? But by law I should apply at the place of my residence because that's where I'm apprehending an arrest Okay, then my lawyer's move Mumbai court mean team I Get an intelligence information from government that I should take a precaution about my Security because they have a small tip of information that the bishop has paid the mafia to abduct me from Delhi to get arrested and in Mumbai Okay, because if I'm in Mumbai, I can be just arrested in Delhi They have to come to the Metropolitan magistrate and get a permission as per the law. So it's a long process The next information what I get is from from an internet discussion Active discussions going on on a Catholic forum where they discuss that we have to get this guy at least He's becoming very powerful and too much influencing against our church and he even criticizes mother Teresa Therefore, he should be got away in one night if he is arrested if he's arrested We should pay any amount of money to a co-prisoner to stack him down And I'm willing to pay money somebody writes on the block. So we report to the police and the block disappears next day and so Things were getting a little dangerous and my I mean addresses suggest me that I should go I mean out from public scene because it could be very dangerous. So I go underground Not afraid of police, but afraid of the mafia coming from the Bishop So I went to some friend's house sometimes, I mean very strange places nearly two months. I lived Out from public eye But the televisions would not leave me from hiding place I go to a television studio in the evening and I speak about the case and they disappear very fast I was I almost mastered the art of doing it and in hiding from the hiding place. I went into 23 television programs Sometimes it was all pretended as life. I record got it recorded earlier and they evening They presented it as a live program and many times it was so well-working but still things were going on very bad and Then I get the information that the the bail application in Mumbai is again rejected They are moving the daily metropolitan magistrate to get me arrested So then I had a one small commitment. I had a lecture tour in Poland Which was coming two weeks later. I thought I would leave the country for I Mean for the time being and stay somewhere and then go to Poland and meantime the dust settles down and come back I go to Finland I that was a week story, which I'll be speaking later about I I swiftly I moved to Finland and meantime police reaches my home and in search of me and In almost all hiding places where I've been it was all followed Mafia reaches in search of me and very clear and there's a case registered About I mean unknown people. I mean unauthorized people reaching places and all but The media in India responded so well to the case Something like a thousand articles came everywhere. It's reported. I've been interviewed everywhere and I spoke out openly about the whole structure They said I would not stop and mean they very interestingly a negotiator emerged The late the organization's chief Catholic of associations president is in discussion with me some by weeks back So he said the bishop would like to get the cases withdrawn now On a condition a small condition that I should apologize if I cannot apologize on behalf the organization somebody else can apologize The first thing what we discussed in our board meeting which I proceed over internet Is that if any of our member apologizes on behalf of the organization? He should be expelled from the membership number one But no one not not a single person would go for that and I've made a public statement That this is not medieval times and even if you bring all the torture machines that we used from the medieval times Well, here is one person who will not apologize. That's the kind of situation that you Thank you. So now that's very impressive I think we have run out of time so We may not have time for questions But if you do want to ask something, please join the table and talk directly to our speakers. Thank you