 Alright, so this video is very, very, very much so well overdue, but I wanted to do this still regardless. Back when I reviewed the monster at the end of the book for season 4, I asked you guys to give me your thoughts about Chuck as a character and just kind of his effect on the show as well as whether you got the impression that he was gone from this episode and just how things traversed into the season 15 finale and everything. Just curious of what you guys thought. So I said, give me your guys's comments and admittedly this is when did this video come out? Ooh, April. Well, July is the time of recording this, so only three months. Okay, let's get on with it. So Rob Hanna started off with, as for Chuck, I'm trying to think back as to when I first saw the episode. I just kind of figured he was a prophet who was receiving revelations from God without directly talking with him. And that's kind of what we got. That was basically what we saw from the character, how he would turn the verse into what he would become. It's definitely, it's a little bit different from what we got obviously in the end, but at this point, that's basically what we were given. That's the nitty gritty of it. Look how they massacred my boy. Chuck deserved better, Gabriel and Michael too. Gabriel most definitely just should have been dead. Michael is the one who actually just got completely screwed over. I can't believe they did that to Adam and Michael. And saying with Chuck, I don't know, it's still a very odd sort of situation, but the next comment here actually kind of has a bit of my own thoughts on the character as well. In regards to Chuck, to me, he's one of the best and most likable characters in the show. When I first saw this episode, I didn't see him as God. In Swan Song, I just thought it founded weird that he disappeared. It wasn't until the 200th episode that I made the connection and accepted him as God, which is why Don't Call Me Shirley is my seventh favorite episode in the series just because of that reveal alone. After this, I rewatched the show and honestly, you can see it. Whether it was intentional or not, Chuck was God. He's a loving creator who, even though was disappointed by his creations, still wanted to help them without compromising their free will. That's why he was helping from the background in situations like The Apocalypse by urging Sam to give up his addiction in a subtle way. I mean, think about it, would a hack drunk writer become wise all of a sudden, or would you see it as a father giving advice to his children? That's why I love Chuck so much, because he is not the God we expected. He's bitter, he's sad, he has made mistakes. He doesn't know how to make up to his children, and that's why he's on the run. As much as he is disappointed in them, he is more disappointed in himself for not handling the situation with Lucifer and Amara in the best way. The backstories work so well with Dean when Dean helped him reunite with Amara, showing that even creators can get help from time to time. In a few episodes, Kripke and Jeremy Carver gave this character so much relatability, this is why I don't consider what Dab did as canon. He took all of that complexity and threw it out the window. I really wish Jeremy Carver had produced his version of season 11 finale, because I know for a fact it was his plan to end it there. I didn't really kind of accept the character as God until that 200th episode was a pretty good cameo from him. It did spurn the idea of what he might be, as well as, I don't know, I've never, it was at that point I was like, okay, I think they're going the God route. But I could actually take him as this mystery figure as well. Like I say in my review of the episode, I like the idea of him being kind of this unknown figure, and once we get to Swan Song, you'll also see just this idea that he's not fully answered, that Stephen King element of leaving it up to interpretation are just not fully giving you the answers, because sometimes answers just don't work out well. It worked out for the most part when he was revealed as God, but then they took that answer and they took it way too far. I liked how he kind of just exited in season 11. I was like, that's it, we're never seeing them again. That's the best way to kind of take all of the future issues that they're going to go up against and be like, well, they don't have God in their back pocket anymore. And I do like what Nikos is saying here in terms of the disappointment and the relatability and the fault, the issues, the not-perfectness of the God Chuck character. I kind of am admittedly very curious as to what Jeremy Carver would have done because he was basically setting up season 11 to be the finale, but then when CW renewed it, he basically daked right at that. He was like, I'm out, I'm not staying around for this crap. Chuck was never meant to be God. Kripke said, Chuck was a prophet through the first half of season five. I'm sure phrase that way, not to commit to the idea, suggested in Swanson while the debate was going on. In any case, I loved Prophet Chuck, season 11 God Chuck. I hated Andrew Dent for destroying both Chuck and Sam and Dee. Yeah, even when, like I said, most of the time when you get an answer in media, sometimes it lets people down, but they were able to make it work for the most part. But then they decided to add too many reveals, too many kind of things about what the Chuck character was. And I could have maybe believed Chuck turning into a villain, but you needed more than 20 minutes. Heck, you had 15 minutes. That's not how it works. I understand that's how supernatural has worked in terms of developing characters. I would have more so just had him appear at the end of season 15, or season 14, and then the things turned into what they do in season 14. But then you wouldn't have had that, oh, this is the end of the world thing. But even then that didn't matter. It was all solved in three episodes. So what really should have happened is that they should have built this character up instead of wasting so much time that they did. And you can't say that they didn't have time or room to do that with season 14, considering it was starting to become so middling in terms of how many episodes were actually story related episodes. Something I have noticed so much through reviewing season five is that technically on a grand total of three episodes of this whole season are not story related at all. Even then one of them technically is still, but two two episodes have so little meaning to the even then they still have development with the characters. But in terms of the narrative, it's their filler episodes, technically speaking, but season 14, 13, and even 15 were absolutely chock full of them. And that kind of like it gives me that I feel that's a very valid excuse or to be upset with the Chuck change is that they had the time to properly do that. And maybe it could have been believable if they had done it correctly. But you can't just throw this character in and expect everyone to believe it. I don't know how people did. I was absolutely bamboozled at how many people thought it was like, this has been what it's been all this whole time. It's like, no, it's not. What Kool-Aid are you drinking? Anyway, so that's enough of a tangent on that one. I enjoyed Chuck's bumbling profit character in season four. I always prefer the concept that season four was really Chuck the prophet and God didn't use him as a vessel until swan song, though that may be wishful thinking on my part. Season 11 and Chuck seemed to fit in well with the story by having Chuck be a god that just lets things play out and didn't interfere. So naturally, I was not a fan of the season 14-15 retcon that Chuck was orchestrating the story all along. And even had him banishing Kevin to hell instead of heaven. I swear that was purely just a means of putting him in the episode just so they could do a send off to Kevin. A complete retcon of the beautiful moment in season 11-21 that is now horrifying to watch. Dab and Buck Lemming writing duo destroyed many of the things I loved about this show. Yeah, the Buck Lemming, if there was a writer that was as bad as Dab, it was that one. I don't know how a lot of the scripts got approved, especially for the final season. A lot of the episodes in the final season weren't even written by writers who had been with the show. So many had left. Ben Edlin, I think, had said I am done with this shit in season 14 and didn't even bother to write anything for season 15. Ben Edlin is probably one of the most underrated people of the show. I honestly kind of forgot about him and I've only just been reminded of him, especially in the latter seasons of the earlier latter seasons. But he honestly was one of the last vestiges of the show. And when clearly he did not take on the showrunner duties, which I don't understand why. I think it's maybe because Andrew Dab was willing to go along with whatever Robert Singer wanted, rather than what Ben was willing to do. Maybe Ben wanted to do a little bit more creativity, but I don't know. That or there might have been some interference or some ill will with him. I don't really know, honestly. But I always feel that Ben, if Ben had been the showrunner for the final portion of the show, we most likely would have gotten something far better. Truck should have stayed a profit and a mystery. Now, honestly, I actually can somewhat agree with you on this point. Part of me, a very large part of me, wishes that this had been the fact because what they did to the character and later on, obviously, like I said, it worked when most cases would probably have it not work in terms of revealing a character of this pedigree. But it was okay. But then when they tried to change it again and again and again, it just was too much. It was too much change and you didn't give enough work to do that. So that's why I've always, as I always felt that this was, I would have been fine with him being unknown. I would have been fine with that. Oh, we got a big one from Holly M here. Okay, buckle up. I think the twist at the end of season 14 was a really rare, good idea from the writers. It was not foreshadowed at all, like you said, but it made for a decent amount of sense. Chuck, AKA God himself, seemed like a very fitting final villain. And this twist, if followed through properly, it wasn't, could have been really contextualized, everything that came before rather than retconning. I was actually decently excited for season 15 because I thought the writers were going to get their shit together. I was wrong. Yes. Again, that's my point too. I think that this could have maybe worked. It wouldn't have been the greatest, but any sort of buildup could have been done a lot better. The foreshadowing, I feel, is, that was his biggest issue. I feel that the foreshadowing just made no sense. And even then, they didn't follow up with anything afterwards. They just made God a pathetic little whiny baby. Chuck wasn't a powerful, Chuck wasn't an all-powerful God at all. They nerfed him because they had no fucking idea how to handle this character being against Sam and Dean's goals, because he could easily just wipe them off the map. But they had to endlessly justify why he couldn't do that. He's off-world, so he can't see them. Bullshit. He's all-powerful and created everything. Why can't he see them? Amara is dampening his powers. Bullshit. They are equals. And she doesn't give a fuck for a long-ass time. He wanted to torture Sam and Dean. Bullshit. He is God. He didn't need to let them be to mess with them, at least not for long. This was very disappointing. Secondly, they made his character a whiny brat, exactly, rather than an all-powerful being that is older than time itself. He was a punk-ass bitch who I laughed at in grade school. I wasn't scared of him at all. There were few moments where he was somewhat intimidating, but that was just the cast acting their hearts out, trying to save the shitty script they had been given. This is my last complaint, which deals loosely with Chuck but doing his character right would have fixed it. Season 15 should have been absolutely batshit crazy. New realities. Sam, Dean, and Cass being unsure what's real and what's not. Maybe one or two cases a week episodes tops, where routine parts of the cases are totally disrupted, moments kind of like in episode 5, where the girls fell onto the antlers and just fucking died. That was crazy and had so much hype. Friends coming back. Friends disappearing. General population becoming aware of the supernatural monsters and ghosts and demons unleashed globally, rather than just one ass random town, exploring the empty, bringing back old enemies like Alastair. Although I don't think the writing staff could have pulled this character off. I can think of more, but those are just off the top of my head. My point is that they should have us, the audience, be questioning everything, just as much as Sam and Dean would after the entire world is rocked by the reveal at the end of season 14. For this very reason, I only liked episodes 4 and 5 of this season. I think I still prefer the season 11 characterization of Chuck though. It made so much damn sense. The father who had to step back to let his child grow up, plus it had so much connection to Sam and Dean's relationship with their own father. You kind of nailed it on the head. There were so many ideas that they had that they could have done with Chuck, with God, with the whole idea of the entirety of reality just breaking down, but they made it so menial. I really think they just didn't have the money. I have an idea that they didn't have the money to do it because watching season 5, the budget is so high in so many episodes. For season 15, apparently it was expensive for them to do the shit they did in season 2 and 3. They had all of this opportunity, and I don't know if they had the budget to do so, they just didn't want to do so, but I admit there's a lot of missed opportunities that they could have done with Chuck, and just the whole idea of what could have happened with all the characters, and just the world in general is supernatural. You bring up a lot of really good points, Ollie. What about the part where Chuck says he's God in this episode and admittedly is toying with their lives for his own entertainment? He was doing that jokingly. Yeah, I'm playing sight. I kind of don't really get where the comment's coming here, but I feel that that was just like a very lame excuse. I actually liked Chuck in season 4. I don't think he was supposed to be God. Sad that in season 14-15 they made him a villain. He was not a good villain, and the whole Lilith thing, disgusting. No, it was like the Lilith reveal thing was purely for... bring back entertainment value. The longest time I tried disputing that God in supernatural would have been sacred, wouldn't be sacrilegious, and that's why there's no way it could be Chuck. To me, Chuck was always a creep. Not now that I'm older, I'm looking at the show retrospectively. I dig deeper into the details. Rob Benedict at a convention specifically tells the audience attending that Kripke told him that he is God by swan song. In season 10 it was more clear that he was God because it was weird that he would show up to a musical based on Sam and Dean's life out of the blue. When season 11 came, it just infuriated me how Chuck is supposedly this malevolent being, and yet he was neglectful of his creations on purpose. Just a really frustrating overall reason why there is evil on earth is because Chuck preferred entertaining himself. At the end of season 12 comic convention, I knew that for a fact they were going to make him a big bad at the end of the show because the writers themselves said, you can't get bigger than God. And knowing that the Winchesters fight everything opposed to them, I knew eventually that would come down to defeating God. Because I don't like Chuck a lot, I just wanted him to end, and I really glad Jack did. I see where you're coming from in terms of what happened with him going into season 12. And I don't know, Rob says that about season, about Swan Song, and maybe that might be true, but again, that's a whole mystery and that whole unknown factor of how his character exits at the end of season five is what made that character work. I think I like that he was hands off. That's what made sense to me, and he would only come back in the sense of the literally universe being destroyed, which was Amara. So that's why it worked in season 11, but then everything that happened afterwards was just kind of silly in my opinion. I'm pretty sure Chuck was not intended to be God in this episode, but I think later on he was. I mean, the latter episodes in this season Raphael attacks Chuck and Castiel. Chuck comes out unscathed and Castiel is brought back relatively soon afterward. The whole Winchester being saved by being on a plane. I think the whole point is that God was already involved in the story and that person was playing as Chuck. I think the main problem with introducing him as a character, I remember Kripke saying he felt like at the end of season five would be. Chuck was the writer so Kripke was using him metaphorically to be him like later on we see in the convention episode. He was hands off and just let things play out. He set up the story. It was up to everyone else in how it played out. In season 11, Chuck was the same way. He was hands off until the story then directly involved him. He didn't care to be involved. He made his creations, but didn't feel the need to be hands on. In season 14 and 15, Dabry wrote the character into one that was obsessed with being in control of everything. Even the actor who played him didn't understand the change and he comments on it at San Diego Comic Con. The change didn't make sense to much of the audience and really not even the actor that played him. I didn't know that. That's cool. I did not know that about Rob. To be honest, it doesn't. It's very void of logic and consistency with the character so I can understand why he would be confused with that. If Chuck wasn't supposed to be God, why did he disappear at the end of season five? I don't know if that was ever explained in season six or onwards. No, it's that kind of ambiguity. That's what I liked about him. That's why I said earlier is that he just disappears and you're kind of left wondering what it is, that whole Stephen King mystery element. I apologize if I mentioned that a couple of times, but I think it's a pretty good representation or good comparison. And finally, the last one here. I hate that the writers made Chuck out to be God. I would have much rather had God never been revealed. Part of me also kind of agrees with that. If season 11 had been the end of the show, totally fine. Because I feel that that was the good place to end it. That's where Carver was trying to end it, but the boys just didn't want the show to end. They just wanted to keep going. They wanted to keep making money. They wanted to keep working on the show. So yeah, there is that issue that they ran into and I think that's kind of the, they either, to quote Batman, it was either a situation of they would live long enough to see themselves become the villain or die a hero. And they went with living long enough to see themselves become a villain. But thank you guys for all of these comments. It's cool to read them. Apologies for taking so long to get around to them. I liked getting to go through these and seeing your guys' interpretations and what you thought about the character because it's still something that's talked about, even though Supernatural has been over for over a year now, almost. It's still a very debated thing, but I find that a lot of people have kind of come around ever since season 15 ended. They're thinking that the whole Chuck villain idea was not that great. I really got to go through season 15 finale reviews again. I really got to do that because some of those are so fucking funny. But anyway, guys, thank you so much for your comments. Again, apologies for getting to this so late. I hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, leave a like. And if you're interested in more, subscribe. Otherwise, I hope you guys are enjoying the season 5 reviews and I hope you guys are getting ready for the swan song review because that's going to be a fun one. Anyways, that's all from me, guys. See you guys next time.