 David Rambajon welcome today industrial construction services. I am Pleased to have you on the show if you could just let's tell us a little bit about yourself Sure Eric. Yeah, I've Got a construction company. I've had the business 25 years and We've we do pretty much federal work about 90% federal work We do some local municipal work as well, but it's all commercial and government work. Okay, and The last 15 years or so really got more into the federal one through the 8a program right graduated that Have been taken it from there. Yeah, that's actually a great segue and when do you graduate the 8a program? It's been about five years now. Okay. Okay. Okay five years. So you've you got it back What 2010 something like that? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Okay. No actually that it seems like when I'm looking back My guests are also fellow award-winner SBA award winners for their states and some Humanitarian awards and things like that small business of the year small business advocate But it seems to me that a lot of them got their start and you're started your business earlier But a lot of them really took off right after the recession 2008 Is that when you really got started 2007 and 8 I will tell you though I am business for 25 years and right, you know, I always share this I was self-employed for ten years. I mean, yeah, I was you know, okay, you know, I was doing okay I wasn't really growing anything Not a ton of retained earnings, you know, but yeah, but I was good No doubt about it 8a in the federal work helped me to scale. Okay, and I leveraged all the parts of it In the program to to do that. Wow. And how did you first learn about that program? You know, I heard about the federal and prior to that I've been doing city county state work and It was to in my I'm in Chicago Politics paperwork all of it. Yeah issues waiting to get paid change orders Just main inspections. Oh, yeah construction inspections wait till they come if they show up all that other stuff Yeah, so I thought to myself federal. I'm jumping out of the pot into the fire. Why would I why would I do that? Yeah, yeah, yeah Deceptively, I sure that that that's how I think But I learned differently. I learned that my friends who are doing their construction work outside of federal I tell them hey, I'm doing the same work. You are I have no inspections and I get paid I tell them the same thing. Hey, you know, it is beautiful. You know, it's interesting That was some of my questions. I had coming down later on the interview I said, where you know, where'd you get your start at and did you experience those same things about not being paid? Yeah, you know, and you've already hit those those key points. It's a tough thing and you know, I am I'm I'll share with you this real quick I'm thankful for the opportunity to grow my business and I'll say, you know, a thank you to you, too because what happened is as I was growing this business, I thought There are other successful entrepreneurs in my circle or that I see but we never learned from them and a little bit of a disservice, I mean You know in the military or even as a parent if you're walking somewhere and you see there's something in a trip on You know look behind you and tell them watch out. You're gonna trip on this be careful Right, but at the same time you leave these like I was leaving the 8a program And I was I was leaving the program with all this knowledge that I obtained Which I wish I had the first year that I got in but I'm leaving it here people come their first year I just walk right by him and I told the SBA. Well, first I tried to sell them I said extend my 8a for another year and I'll mentor a bunch of people You're out. Okay. I like it. That was a good one. Yeah, but but I've since um, you know Committed to volunteer and paid forward. I'm on the board for the SBA. Yeah, and I also Every week I'm meeting with a small business and or speaking at events to really share my perspective of what helped me scale the business Oh, that's great. That's gonna be a great conversation for later on today. That's it. No, that's excellent Well, and what's interesting is that now There is I had him on the show probably about four weeks ago the regional administrator for our particular region here Which is the nine states in South Carolina, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Alabama Ashley Bell and they're trying to change that so I don't know if it's probably people like you that are in a background that helped pushing it and saying some of the same things because What they found? Statistically, they're finding that the people the program is not has it not been succeeding as well and I attributed that because the like you said, there was nobody to look up to or to the mentor or to turn to At least when we were doing the program and we found that and that's part of the reason why we created this show Is that that's kind of what you're saying the same along the same lines, right? Yeah, absolutely And that's good to hear that you should that I I would definitely think that You know, there's definitely politics and there's definitely all sorts of things happening But I think at the center everybody wants to succeed Yes, and if you really look at it and we want to succeed and and I believe in small business Well, there's diverse or not a small business is great. What I've learned is, you know, it fuels the economy. It creates jobs Yeah, it is, you know Important and so if they really believe that It's important to take somebody who just spent nine years in who's successful I mean a lot of people go through the program. Don't get a project. Yes. No, that's what we're saying. Yeah for different reasons, you know Whatever it may be, but but if you're successful and you've learned something The government I think should put in a program Sure, there should be a little bit of a benefit. There has to be a little bit Oh, and that's it and I'm sort of incentive and then go help and I'm doing it because I think it's right My vice president's like hey, you're you're constantly going to meet with you. What are you meeting with all these people? I said paint it forward. I'm thankful and I think humility And paint it forward goes a long way. Wow. Wow, and that's great And what's interesting is I've seen that with a lot of small businesses who've succeeded in these various programs that they want To pay it for and they want to give back. How do you Decide who you meet with So, you know, it's interesting You know, you said you're meeting with one person a week. That's a lot Minimum one and they'll come to my office. Okay, you know, and I'll give an hour or two and you know, which is a lot, too Oh, I said yeah, well, you know the basis of what I need to share. I do a little talk I have these these little presentations I do and it starts off with looking at Diversity programs and then it goes into strategic business just from my own perspective through my experience and If you don't get that foundation And I've made these mistakes. These are mistakes. I've made. I mean, I'm a serial entrepreneur So I have other businesses I do and I've made all these mistakes and I share these with other people for them to make their best choices, right? So my goals may be different from theirs. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah, but in either case some of the basic foundational of how you plan and execute your business relates to everybody Okay, you want to share some of that. Do you have anything I prepare? Oh boy, you know, Eric I appreciate you asking these open-ed questions, but it's dangerous now for an hour Red light that lights up on my computer. That's all right You need to pull back. Well, but but um, you know, basically one of the things I'll start off with just the diversity There are many programs There's city county state federal programs I Think they're great opportunities on the federal side. What is it for you? Is it for you? What is it for you? And so I did this talk this week in New York for the veteran conference and I said You don't go get certified and then try and get work You find the work that you could provide value for a client Maybe the EPA or maybe it's a federal reserve or maybe it's the GSA Maybe it's the army you see that you could provide value that you're like wow I could provide a value not only that I could be profitable because you don't want to just get work You want to get bottom-line work where you're making a profit Those two things fit now you set up your plan to say I need this certification And this is what I'm going to go do and this is the plan For how I'm going to go after the work So so early on the reason I share that is If I could make money from being certified I would have made a bunch of money I was certified by every agency city county state federal In fact, I was attending events and outreach programs I mean you full-time attend outreach programs full-time go to events and some of them are great. Some of them are okay some of them you already been to so The next part when I talk about that I'll share with you how I look at that and how to manage how I suggest You look at managing your time Okay. No, no, no, that's that's that's great. Uh, and and again, man, you're just flowing So you're taking me even off topic. That's why That's why I've I've I've keep I just keep going along the path that you're taking this conversation because these You are touching on all the critical points Right, and it's interesting that you say that in terms of because for me What I've experienced recently is there's a lot of people teaching people Say, uh, how to do contracting, right? But I think that there's other things that are like I said, is it right for you? What about the the other side? What about the non? contract business side, right leadership Mental toughness resiliency, you know, all that stuff. That's where I see people are falling short in some areas Even if you were given all the tools right per se to do these things What would you do with those tools and how would you use? And so that's kind of what you've been talking about and that's why I was Really excited to let you keep going. Yeah that line. Yeah, because I think like you said kidding bring us one to your office Because well, I've had a few entrepreneurs do this they brought people in and You could give someone a contract, but are they ready for that contract? Can they handle the contract? Is it a profitable contract? Is it's what's in their best interests? And I think a lot of those questions have to be answered Hey, and when you're when you're when you're a young entrepreneur or newer into that industry Or whatnot You know our excitement counts our judgment if you're a real entrepreneur, you know, I've been excited many times and lost some money I mean, you know, I had a restaurant That was my mba right there, you know It's like spent all this money and it was cool and it was a thing to do But um, is that what I should have been doing with my time and my money my energy my skill, right? Is that where the best place was for my long term goals? So so I think it's normal that the challenge is we also live in a in a silo. So Entrepreneurs are live in a silo and often don't have other entrepreneurs Especially in their lane or doing what they're doing. And so their their beliefs that they're doing everything, right? Is only looked at against themselves. So they believe strongly believe. Hey, this is what we're doing. I'm on track I'm leading this and uh, you know, I'm the owner. It's going to be great Well, what we need is other entrepreneurs to say Hey, what do you think of this? Not a pat on the back like great. You can get that from your family A great job way to go to start your own business and and make it happen But really, I mean I say things to do some of these small business sometimes And if and if they're if they're open to it It's pretty raw. I'm just like how you make your money I don't see it. You know, I mean, I'm challenging. I don't maybe I maybe you know something I don't right, but I don't challenge you to say Do you want me to push you or not or are you okay? Do you want a pat on the back that could give you that you could go or do you want me to challenge what you're doing? Um, because it's only when we challenge ourselves when we could sharpen that saw and make sure we're on point Wow. Wow. Excellent. What did you uh, first get your So I obviously I tracked. I saw you went to college, but let's go back even further Do you believe you're always hard work to be an entrepreneur? Yeah, you know, like when you're younger, did you trade baseball cards or Cell potato chips or These open-ended questions this data So I do a little ted talk thing in it and I started off and I say Uh, I've always been a serial entrepreneur at age 14 was my first hustle. I was handling out flyers really So I don't know how old you are, but you have flyers and you put them on cars and you put them on houses That's getting the message out. That's the advertising. That's the first twitter, right? Yeah, put the message and get it out. I remember those. I remember. Yeah So you put a flyer out and I was making cash and then I started shoveling snow mowing lawns doing Uh, um work supporting, you know, just some labor work for people Uh, but yeah after that Then I got caught up in the hole. There's a little multi-level marketing looking at that stuff Okay, and have a lot in real estate And yeah, I do some real estate now. So but yeah ever since first, yeah, I just kind of had it But my parents are immigrants. So, um, uh born here in this country I thought for sure you've got to get an education and I still do believe that a little bit But the schooling that you see on my on my on my linkedin or on my profile Is good, but that's not where I learned to be an entrepreneur In fact, I think that What helped me most to be an entrepreneur was my bootcamp for the Marine Corps. That training was fantastic Yeah, I could do that I'll share with you one quick example When I do this little talk I'd say, um, I call I call it the sharpshooter's blueprint But a sharpshooter, you know, they handed me I was 18 years old They handed me a rifle said hit the target and you could picture Holy rifle hit the target. Yeah, but you know that target was 200 yards down range. That's two football fields Yeah, wow. Yeah, how do you do that? Well, the Marine Corps in particular I think is the only branch it qualifies at 500 yards. So five football fields. I'm taking A rifle and hitting the target. How did I do that? And I did it by the way I shot expert and I qualified sharpshooter. How did I do that? And it was a big lesson what I learned is Very clean and well maintained weapon, which I liken to ourselves, right our personal self We got to be mentally physically In in in a good place to perform right be ready to perform So this weapon was in great working order and then we managed everything surrounding hitting that target So we learned about everything that's gonna that's gonna affect or impact hitting that target having a solid foundation Watching my breathing watching the wind and squeezing the trip all these little things that you learn And all of a sudden you take this little round out of this rifle It hits five football fields and hits the target And so um, I liken that a little bit to Being a sharpshooter in business No, I like I like that. Um what so you were in the Marine Corps And then I see that when you got out that's when you kind of start your business and like I said You're a solo entrepreneur. How did you get into construction in particular? Yeah, you know, I I got out. I got my degree and then um after my degree I got a job I had my first and only job and uh, I decided quickly it wasn't for me Um, but I didn't know what I was going to do quite honestly. I'm not gonna You know, I'll tell you I knew it was not true. I want to do something And I looked to leverage some of the small business opportunities in the city of Chicago So I did that and I floundered a little bit over the years because like I share now I didn't do what I share now. I didn't plan it out. I didn't look at the opportunities I just wanted to go get contracts and work and I did I landed contracts at the city and the county and the airport and and it was going okay Um, I don't know where I was going and then I went back to school a little bit more I really found myself leaning towards construction. I always did construction But now we're a prime general contractor. Um And so I just gravitated towards that and then I did construction management for a long time I'm pretty conservative. So I was a little nervous about the bonding. Yeah, and um The 8a that's what made me turn to prime at risk because The opportunities were to work great for construction Um, I say for construction because I don't know how it is for it or architect or things like that Right, but for construction quite honestly, the opportunity was Very significant relative to the open market and so I'm like let's get the bond and let's go and that's when um In the last 15 years, that's where I scaled and started at zero bonding and grew my bonding program So that we can uh prime large contracts. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that well Along the way, did you did you so I know you did some of those smaller contracts Did you ever work in a private sector where someone didn't pay you like one of the big large gc firms? Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that happens. Oh, I was I was that guy, you know Everybody kind of goes through this some people get stuck in it and live their lives as a sub That's check to check waiting for it to come in sort of a hamster wheel. I try and take them off I try and talk them off the wheel. I'm like, I need you to just Put your phone down and listen to me for a second because You can get stuck on there because you have a lot of volume. Um, you're waiting to get paid It's rare and once you get paid you got other bills It's hard to scale when you're always chasing your tail Right, right, right. I've been there. I've been there. They're sort of uh I don't I don't know, you know, I don't want to blame large business. I don't want to bane the big companies You know, they're trying to be a profitable company. Yes. I tell the small businesses own what you do Now when you're first starting off I tell you I would take projects. I would take them if they're a low margin I'd take it if I didn't get because you're trying to grind you're trying to grow Right, right. But what do I tell them is that's okay Only as long as it's a means To to to something else as long as a means to get where you need to be not what you're going to do forever Yeah, no, it's it's tough and like you said once you get into that hamster wheel It's difficult because why like you said you need the money And you need it you need the other project to keep the team together and to keep the people going to keep the payroll going um And it and it could be difficult And then sometimes people say to me isn't the federal government harder You hear that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're it's a scary thought I mean the only thing they know about federal is taxes and that's scary So they're like they're like, man, I don't know about that federal stuff. They haven't been friendly to me lately. Well, well, um You know what I sure people is It's very tough. Stay away. No So Yeah, you don't want to get a construction. It's it's tough. I'm trying to look at what else I'm gonna do Yeah, but no, there's more than enough. There is literally people are like, why are you showing people how to be contractors? I'm like, I'll show them to be whatever they want to be. I don't For one thing is they're never gonna be me. No, I'll always be me. I'm gonna get mine, right? I'm gonna get mine But there's enough. There's enough out there. There's more than enough Work for good contractors and there's also attrition. I mean, you know, I don't know much longer I got and then I'm gonna do something else or send my retire to do something else and pull out that's gonna leave Room for someone else to come in and pick up some more work. That's true. So, um, yeah federal My most fun one is is what I told you before telling my friends who have their contracting companies I'm not waiting for inspectors and um We get paid As quick as seven days I mean, I've been paid Sometimes lessons. I mean When that happened What it empowered us to do though and the and the federal, um, contracting and needs to understand it from the business development point of view is In construction You know, there's three big things that I used to do claims consulting for bonding insurities and things like that When I was doing the consulting work prior to being um at risk and in construction, there's three things to me Communication is king. You have to communicate. You're orchestrating a team The next thing is workflow. I don't want to see you send one body out. I need the work To be done. I need the the teams you need to put enough labor to get the work done And the third thing they're all equally important in effect each other is cash flow And so with this cash flow, I'm able to employ The best subcontractors who enjoy getting paid as long as they perform And those things help, uh, build a good business too Yeah, no, no with good subcontractors makes your life I wouldn't say easy, but it's it's easy as As you could get in construction, I would say and when and when you can't pay them You can't get the good ones sometimes. Right. Yeah. No, it's hard. It's hard to do. That's that's interesting So you're from Chicago area Born and raised in Chicago. Okay Yeah, because um Yeah, we we we do work here in Chicago. I've had an office in New York for I don't know 15 years And uh, we've been doing work in florida panama city 10 for a space For about seven years. Okay. Yeah, new york Um, it's not difficult to work in new york Yes, the unions Yeah, well, we we are only construction managers in new york right now. Okay. All right. Yeah, and that's more of We're we're on the teams really for the bigger contractors the state of new york I just came back from there. They they implemented a six percent veteran requirement requirement It's the highest in the country for veterans. And so, um You know, i'm starting to step it up over there now because of that requirement some really good opportunities Oh, that's nice. You know what what i'm looking for. I'll share with you You know is uh, I learned as I've leveraged the program I used to think well, how am I going to do work in another market? I'm like going to compete when I have per diem when I have to travel when I have to do that And one of the other a day graduates that I knew shared this with me that I'll share with everybody is He said it's your perception That there are good performing contractors that fit the requirements throughout this throughout the country There are markets Where everybody who's bidding Has per diem everybody's coming in because at that base They don't have I think I was talking to the guy at Los Alamos um National laboratory, okay, and he told me he's out in the middle of nowhere. He says all his contractors come in from out of town So you know there that you can compete with other contractors who are putting in the same sort of a cost that you would and um, and so I look for that too and I also in new york where i'm looking at now is My insurance company does not a lot of people don't like new york because it's um the insurance companies. Yeah, it's very difficult Work with comp is difficult new york. Yeah, but federal contracts in new york new jersey for the va that i'm looking at I'd love to do it because They can't find contractors do the work So what I would look for it's and it's a tough thing because I think having a dream venture Is is like getting married. You have to have the right partner. It's very very critical But if I can find the right partner in a market We could do joint venture and make some money together and deliver some good work So i'm working with the company actually out of Rhode Island and they said they have the same issues at the va hospitals They can't find Contractors i'm looking for any good contract. You know, I will invest in my time To fly and go meet people who want to do it first you talk to them and everything else I always say When you're doing venturing it's a marriage. I mean you you you got you have to make sure It's not just business I mean the business is great if you could do it and make some money for both of you right and deliver some good work But you have to both have the same values. You have to both be able to work together You have to build be able to trust each other. Yeah, so um, it takes time to find the right Partner that makes sense. Well and doing my research. I see you've done a lot of successful joint venturing We've uh, we've um in the 80 program The mentor protege was still in the 8a. It wasn't the all small Uh, okay. Yeah, so back and that's back when you started correct. Yeah, the whole duration my whole term of 8a All small didn't come out till one year after Which is kind of great for me because I didn't have the competition for many other all small Right jb. Yes. And so we um were able to leverage that with a local private large business in Chicago and when we're on the market to um To pennsylvania to louisiana to ohio and to florida and landed work Leveraging the opportunity really understanding. What's it there for? How do you leverage it? How can it be mushy beneficial and profitable? How would you if looking at it what you did? How would you advise another at a firm to? Find that of that mentor that that protege I mean and find a mentor find the jv partner that they can trust and believe in how What would you tell them some of the steps some of the things to look for and those types of relationships? Yeah, the first thing I'd say is to look at the work you want to do and the reason I say that is You know, you I know you're a construction too. And you know, I don't know if I'm going to go join venture with walsh Uh, the reason is is because they're so big, you know or with um for that matter bechtel I met with bechtel this past week and the guy goes. Hey, we might want to work with you And I said if I can't speak to the owner I can't do it. Yeah bechtel's humongous. Yeah, they're too big, you know, and if I can't speak to the owner It's harder. It's just hard. Could it happen. It could happen. I mean it could happen If you got the right person, but I would say find the work you want to do find The mentor that would benefit, you know bechtel or even walsh for that matter doing 100 million 50 million dollars to work with me And take it or leave it. They're not that excited. No, they're not but a company that does 500 million and can bump it 50 to 100 million Right, that's 10 5% percent. They they are interested. They will work just as hard as you Because you want both parties to put the energy So find the one, you know too many times and again, I only shared this because I learned it I'm not coming with the answers like I have the answers. It's during experiences right is that Find the company that wants it just as much as you and understand it And they will invest the time and energy because you don't want to have a day and you don't want to force them either I see some companies saying I keep asking them. They won't call me back and they keep telling me they are interested I said walk away Walk away. You don't want this. You're not looking to give in someone You know the marriage I talked about right if she don't want to marry you go look at someone else Boy, don't try to force her. Yeah, you can't see problems later Reminds me of 90 day fiance, right? There you go Yeah, that's true. They don't want to marry you. Don't marry him at great point great point because you know That's funny because people ask me on the air. Well, I'm calling these people. They don't call me back And I'm like, okay. I mean, I'm not sure what you want me to tell them to force you to do business with you Yeah, that seems like that's going to be a really bad relationship. Um moving forward already Yeah, and you know sometimes I knowing what I know now I sometimes think well, why are you doing that? And then I stopped myself because I was there. I did that I felt that I would say, you know, they would come to me and they say it's a small business sometimes say You know what? I'm calling the contract officer and they're supposed to do this and they don't do it And then I told the sba. They're supposed to write a letter But they don't want to write the letter and I told the contract officer, you know I should be able to come in and do a capability statement, but they don't want to take the time to meet with me Right I said, don't force them Ultimately on a very similar to business as usual in every sector Relationships are key here And and uh, you don't want to force it in my opinion in my opinion, right? You don't want to force it You want to be humble hard working and humble and develop that relationship and there are ways to do it And so, you know, you might be knocking on a door that's might not be the right opportunity either So there's so many different Um We found our niche, you know, we found niches that we filled that are good Good revenue and good margins Hmm. Um, can you remember your first contract with the federal government? Oh, yeah Oh, this is something I and it was a nice one and I took a joint venture by the way So so it was a joint venture because the other firm had been doing the work Prior to the requirement for veteran only so today at the veterans administration prior to the kingdom wear rule kingdom wear So part of that it was all then it was wide open and this guy had been doing in fact He was in the 80 program and he was doing work at the v hospitals He found out he's like who's veteran at the time. I'm in fact, I was two years in the a day I wasn't really doing much. Okay, right next lesson is be prepared for you go in because I would pay I told him I would have paid cash money on the ninth year to have an extra year I would have paid for it. That's how much it was worth right and um, literally after I got out Contract norms were still calling me. I got a set aside. I'm like, no, you know, I say I have a mentor I'm working with Was it was it was in flown yet? But um the first contract it was actually a jack contract and I was nervous and The margin on that jack contract was probably the highest I've ever seen um ever I'm gonna it was ridiculous. I'm nervous to even say it. It was so high And I remember my joint venture partner looking at me and telling me my god, you're gonna you're gonna be fine You're gonna be fine. One thing I did do though is at that time that that happened It was me and one other person in the office I and that was an office manager who was supporting doing everything I needed right I I bit it and my mentor said to me this he says you're gonna be good. I said why he goes I said I appreciate the comment but tell me what you're thinking. He said Dave you've hunted you've bit it You've run it. You've closed it out You know how to do every part see some of the challenges sometimes is if you have a team that you've built Which is okay. It happens, right? But if you don't you got to know their work to know if they're doing it, right? Yeah, no, that's true and and that's why I asked you about Working in this particular industry because construction is not an easy industry not as a business period The people are not always nice and always friendly The superintendents the guys in the field. I mean, there's some tough people out there and they don't always say very nice things Yeah, no, no, you're right. Um, oh wait a second. I did construction and restaurants, right? Those are the two highest turnover In business. I mean, you know, you were with you, right? You really like uh had a pain and suffering the subs the subs turn over to and uh I've lived it. I mean you have to really understand how to do it and how to hedgerous I have some really really great subcontractors. I get to know the owners I get to know their families even and we've done millions with them And they went out of business on me and left me holding the bag And so so I remember calling and telling her what happened. David things got caught up and she's been a busy forever You have to do things the right way And even though, you know, with the waiver suppliers started calling me. I wasn't paid but I paid her I said, you know, I paid you for that. She says, yeah, I'm sorry. You're sorry. What's going on? So so You have to run the business properly and you have to have your systems and processes in place For your industry to make sure you're protected and you had your risk When you when you first got started, um, was anybody on your team like family? Or friends, you know, um for me, no, it wasn't Okay My father remember saying, oh your wife should work with you the business and I'm like, no, thanks I said, I have business life and home life two separate things I have some friends who have their companies pretty successful and their wives are involved Um, and I tell them I got to give it to you for that because I keep it separate. I mean, I don't mind hiring family If they're qualified to be on the team but um You know, my employees are my family too. I mean my employees right now are my family. I mean, I know all my employees I know all their families and And and so um, but no, I didn't direct family I just hadn't had the opportunity To do what some sometimes people ask me questions about getting started and you know, obviously there's have issues with cash flow Maybe you know the roller coaster would not having enough Contract and workflow like you said so they typically turn to family and friends or You know people that they can get with but that was that was pretty much the gist of that Yeah, there there's there's uh, that's a tough thing kicking it off with the Cash flow for any business and I would say more and more I know for veterans, there's a lot of stuff too, but even for small business and through the sba There are uh, there should be Um smaller loans, you know that available and hopefully you got to look really hard at those loans to make sure that um The profit margin covers it right and then so that you're still making a profit Day if if you're just Laundering the money back and forth. What do you end up with at the end? No, yeah, that's a good. Yeah, that's a good point Did you have any money when you got started? So, um, I didn't and um, I remember 25 years ago. My mother let me $19,000 a lot of money Yeah, wait wait. Maybe it was 9,000. It was $9,000. $9,000 19,000 25 years. That was a ton Yeah, yeah, it was $9,000. Yeah now it's like 19 But but $9,000 and she lent it to me to cover me getting up and running Even that though, you know, I paid her back in the first year, but um But uh, I still was floundering in the market meaning that I didn't have a solid foundation and a plan of what I was doing And where I was going So what kept you doing it? Oh, well, you know I was okay. I mean I was self-employed pretty much, you know, made a little money on self-employed. I had fun I was 27 years old. So I was like, you know I wasn't married yet. So I was just working night and day, you know When sometimes you're tough Taco Bell and a cup of water, right? I was good. You know, I just kept going All right. I like it. I like that. That's awesome You and looking at your background or your federal work seems like the majority work comes from the air force Veterans army and navy, right? So the four agencies Yeah, um, was it harder to just build the relationship with any one of those particular agencies than the other? Did you find it? Yeah, I think the only hard thing is that that they they retire or move to other jobs Yeah, so you develop the relationship And uh, you know the five years On my account like I've had contract officers the navy that I've known for For probably 15 years now and they didn't retire and they didn't go anywhere yet and um, those relationships are valuable because They want to know you can perform And when they know you can perform And that if you get an opportunity that they don't have to sort of babysit you they don't have to watch you That you're going to get it done And I convey that to my clients. I said, you know, my value that I'd like to bring is Let me get it done. Let me handle it And if I do run into an issue That I can't, you know, if it's a wall, I can't go over around because I'll handle it I know there are personalities not going to come and tell you the contract Uh, the project manager is not being nice That's not a problem, right? There's going to be people who aren't nice figure it out. Um But but respecting their time if it's if it's not a wall that I can't climb over or go around I will come with options and defer for their direction. They love it Mm-hmm. And the beginning of our conversation you said Um, some people go around to all these networking events and these shows and conferences How did so how did you first get started building those relationships? Well, I did have the joint venture Uh, the joint venture started me off and um, sometimes I'm on a panel At an event with that joint venture partner and it's nice and it's my chance literally I was on a panel I didn't know it was coming I said, oh, you're on the panel. It was great. And they said that same question you asked and I said, well you have to find someone who's willing to work with you and You know, you have to be 51 percent there 49 and you're going through his projects and and they teach you when you learn And then you graduate, but it's hard to find that person I said that person sitting next to me. Hey, you know, and and he helped me do it Um, I remember the time where I came back and said, hey this next one I got because you do you got your body up there. I said, yeah, I'm good And before long I could see it. He was looking for his next partner. So I had to hurry up and scale because He was like, well, okay, you're doing those now I mean the bigger ones I still did with them. I mean if it's half a million, I'm doing it Yeah, it was a million. I'm doing it. I was three million. I'm doing it five million. I'm doing it And I started growing and he was like, oh boy our joint venture is over. I'm like, I got it. Thank you And maybe there's bigger stuff. We still draw a venture on 20 million. Maybe we get together Something like that. Yeah, and um, how long was that how long was that Marriage, I guess, uh that that that stretched three to five years. Okay. All right. Yeah, and and what I You started going Yeah, and what what I suggest to people is that opportunity is is um, the learning that you were talking about Occurs through teaming joint venturing subcontracting Any way you can get yourself involved in a project to learn the systems and processes as they relate to each agency because I will say Everything else being equal on a job. It's a million dollars It's different delivering it from the VA. It's different delivering it to the gsa It's different delivering it to the navy and it's absolutely 100 different delivering it to the army The army has high requirements. Yes. And so that same job You have a bunch of other things in the class, you know, I know it's a little scary when you look at these contracts that are 300 pages long for construction, but but um, You know, you you got to learn and understand what the requirements are and you have to meet them because um You know, you don't want to get in an issue with a prevailing wage Wage requirement and or a reporting requirement and we've had those by the way. I'm again I don't know the answers. I've I've made a mistake and I gotten up and learned I made a mistake again got up. I fell down. I got up and so um That's that's what you do. You got to get involved and learn it and then set when you learn it You got to set up the processes, right? So I tell people I told my office early on I said just get a binder The standard operating procedures are going to grow on us and we have all the different areas of You know hiring and contracting and finance and marketing and HR stuff Every time we do a new process throw it in the folder. It doesn't have to be fancy But we don't want to relive it you you'll relive it once or twice, but three times too much You got to learn from that and establish the systems interesting um The the opportunity where you taught the project management in vegas for perini. Oh, yeah Can you tell us about it? Yeah, so I do that now. Well, what a treat, you know They flew me down and covered my room and board paid me a little money to go to vegas four times a year So it was nice, but I do that class now. It's a class and project manager So I will tell you this How do I get to construct I really Have found and learned And developed a love for orchestrating teams See we're delivering construction And I think sometimes there's value by self performance a little bit of value But really the true value we provide is understanding these plans and specs And orchestrating a team including all the stakeholders to build that project So I've really honed that and developed it and I could I do like um It's like a two hour if I do it straight two hour start to finish construction project management. And so, um, I offer that and For free I've been doing I just go to the different agencies will invite me where they have small contractors Who are trying to scale to be prime and I'll do the project management and really do in a way that challenges them because I've been to all these classes. They're great. You know marketing is great Motivation is great. All that without a plan is nothing. I mean, it's a place for motivation And um, but without a plan it's just you're blowing in the wind, right? I changed the words on that thing That's okay I like that. I like that. We'll see people pick up on it, but But what did you learn all this from? Um, any books. I know you took some math classes. You were like school Entrepreneurship first of all entrepreneurship Uh, I'll shoot them out real quick thinking grow rich How to win friends and influence people the emith Stephen cubby seven habits. Um, you know rich ed poor dad's got a little different swing on business Those five books to me And I'm sure there are other great ones Me coming up as an entrepreneur. Those are the books as far as project management, you know, I realized and I believed that project management Um, at the time wasn't a big thing in construction today the army corps getting pmp for their pms And so I went back and got my project management certificate And I looked at construction and I really immersed myself in it and I went to several universities You know on my on my on my profile it'll say stuff about university chicago university pop You know, I got my certificate there But then I would go to the university engineering schools and just learn the specifics the specifics, right? So I say don't let school interfere with your education school's great But just get educated. So I knew if I wanted to be the best at what I was doing I needed to do it and then I you know, I consulted in that area early on prior to getting involved so these first 10 years when I was scaling the business and um Non-risk work. I was doing work for the bonding companies and it was sort of forensic because The bonds would be pulled and I'd go in and see what happened And ultimately was one of those three things Cash flow communication or workflow you stop any one of them and I'll pull the job self I like that. I like that that um, that's that's really good that because that actually leads me to um A prince about tim ferris teaches about deconstructing Projects and so you just named a few reasons why you believe people fail in the industry those three things which is great Um A couple things that i'm going to let you go. I know we're running on time. Yeah, we're good. Yeah, okay Um, so what would you advise are so, you know the 80 20 rule, right? So 20% activities produce 80% results What would you say are some of the 20% of activities people can be doing to achieve like the major things that they Should be focused on yeah in their first starting. Yeah, well early on I take the majority that 20 And do the planning you see why are franchises successful? They're successful because They're giving you the standard operating procedures the systems the processes and routines That if you do these activities Will output Profitability right so if you they tell you to market they tell you where to spend the marketing money That tell you what to do what colors to use You to know for your business. What are your systems and processes and routines? What do you do? When do you do it and how do you do it in order to output? So so as much as there's some latitude currently in my business Some of my my my guys who work with me who I learned from all of them We all learn from each other He says Dave as long as we bid we're going to get ours So we know that bidding is important and a percentage of bidding is important But you know, there's a strategy Along with the systems processes routines And you know if you can put this planning up early and I'm not really big on Probably gonna be a nice thing for the bankers to hear. I'm not really big on business plans I'm big on What's your plan? Just how are you going to make money? You know small business comes to me. I'm on Okay, here's my time straight and simple Product or service tell me what it is. I say, what's your price point? Okay, and then I talk about this I'll share this one thing with you because a big part of what I talked about. It's called the three Rs and I think I coined it and And it's resources risk in a word reward and what I say is We all have a finite amount of this first-ar resources in the form of time, money, money, skill, energy It's all we have and we will we will use these resources to live our best life. Well For your business, we're what what are you doing with your resources? How is that one person can take that day and within six or 12 months build something great? You know one to five years. They're on top actually Um just to share You know, I scaled in 10 years, you know, I could did in five if I know what I know now But I scaled in 10 years. So what are you doing at resources risk? There's risk involved. Yes How does that risk fit for you? Are you identifying it mitigating it managing it and knowing what it is? I'm not talking about well. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm not do it no matter what that's pretty What is the risk identify it know what it is the return is the last hour? What do you want? I know as an american born here I was chasing the dollar. I was chasing money I don't that's the best thing and if it is just pick something How much money where do you want to hit because early on I was just trying to make money. It's like for what? I challenge the small businesses that I speak to to make that final are Their life, you know, what is it? What do you want to show me one to five years? Where do you want to be? And they'll say sometimes, you know, I've heard yeah, hey, business is good But I have a little challenge at home. You know, my wife doesn't understand this or that And I said well hold off remember that first hour I told you How much are you putting into your relationship your family? Because these three hours work for business and life And what's the risk if you don't put that time in with your family? Do you want a business with no family? Right. So these three hours I like to share is let's pull back. Let's reset You're in business and I did this talk recently because at this convention I tell people I don't care how long you've been in business. Do you ever stop and reset? Do you ever stop and think where am I? Where am I going? Look at your resources and say How can I use my resources? Properly To build something so that You know, I can enjoy what I want for that final hour. What's the reward? What's the is it is it financial independence and what does that mean? What's the dollar value? So really pick that target? I go back to my sharpshooter, right? Go pick that target. What do I have to do with my three hours to hit that target at 500 yards? Wow, wow, I think that was great No, I think that was that's uh, we that was a great way to help close it out the section Yeah, no, I really do appreciate that because I mean I can actually visualize that target in my brain. Yeah Yeah, no, I appreciate it. I I you know Humbly I go through what I do and I've always deferred to the experts But who are the experts, right? And you get to a point where you're like, okay, you become the expert You know what you're doing jump in the driver seat be confident. I'm still humble You know, I always will be you got to be and I'm still learning you never stop um, but I think that I think that um, I'm more open now to sharing my perspective and uh, hey listen You know, it's gonna happen. You know this doing what you do. You put yourself out there. They're gonna be critics. Oh, man Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm comfortable now and uh might not be for everybody I've gotten a positive response for what I'm sharing and um, I'm gonna continue to share it and give it away And let's see people leverage it and grow and do well Uh, um, and I I'm a big believer in that and I learned that from some of the same people that I talked about Which is give away 99% of which, you know, may just give it all away and you'd be surprised what comes back to you as a result of that and But you're right when you put yourself out there, you have some critics and I've I've had some critics which was interesting because of You know, just to see people's perspective on it. So even people within our own industry Oh, yeah. Yeah, they've pretty well Well, I tell my kid I said, you know, the bullies you see in the in the in the schoolyard They just grow up some of them make it some don't but they're still the same attitude Right critical or or trying to get the light shine on them or shine it on you to get it away from them Things like that and it's all good, you know, they might need a hug But but um, you know, I know you mentioned tim ferris Literally my computer is sitting on a book to stay up a little higher. It's tools of titans tim ferris so I know tim filed him for a minute and You know, the other guy gary v lately been checking him out and gary's big thing is You got to let go. I tell I tell people let go what people think I mean have pride have pride in who you are Right still come strong But let go of the critics and are free you Well, I you know, I and I have to tell people that work with me around the same thing I said, look when you see those messages don't don't feel bad because You know that we're doing something good and something positive how You know when we're taking someone who's like you said, they're national war winners Form a contracting officials and contracting offers and sharing their story and telling people how to become more successful How that you know, how can we possibly be doing anything harmful to another business? We're just yeah, I mean I said You're telling him the wrong thing. It's like I'm telling my opinion. Yeah, that's it. I go look They still got the greatest tool choice choice. Yeah, they could they could do it They could not do it. Yeah, and then also you don't have to listen. They could turn it off Right if they want to but uh, no, I think that was great. I definitely appreciate that And I think that was a great way to close out. You've recommended the books You told us about your stories your pitfalls. You've given us some tips some tools Anything else that you want to close out? Anybody out there, you know that believes that uh, I guess work reach out. I mean you tell me how do I handle it How people won't reach out they do but I handle it, you know, it's like it's that I thought at first I'm telling everybody I tell the yes, I tell everybody any small business time to reach out And the ones who really need it they do or the ones who have it they do and that's okay But the other thing is yeah, I'm always looking for um The other thing I get from this is partnering and networking and uh teaming and joint venturing, which I want to talk to you about after our call I agree with you and I know and it's true because I can tell you this So I'm going to dc in two weeks to speak at the club zone conference. Yeah, right so I set up Just a little because I was in Orlando at another conference for podcasting And some people from you know, that know me from the internet world said hey, we heard you're in Orlando Can you stop by and meet with us? We met with a group of four people. So I said, okay We'll do the same thing while we're in dc. We'll meet with a few people So we said we probably put it on instagram, you know, social media and stuff. Yeah I've had 39 people sign And I go uh-oh This is this is the direction. You know what it is. There's an age where you kind of out of it I think I'm right out of that age. So I'm looking for volunteers. I'll put this out there I need someone to help me my social media as far as the message because what you're doing is fantastic and um, You know, uh, I got some people I've referred to you to by the way, okay after this Who would bring uh additional value to your talks as well for their perspective, but um, But uh, yeah, you have to leverage The new platform and and get it out there No, it's on social media because uh, it's so great now and what I learned and I love Is there's some really great people all over the country? I mean all over the world, but all over the country. There's some great people and it's so refreshing. Yeah, I We just released an episode last week. Alex Hernandez He's a partner. He's out of New Orleans Hernandez consultant construction. He did 49 million last year He's also a us gotta stay right under the limit there But he's also from the marines Nice and a great guy veteran owned business. He's now hub zone and he's veteran owned and again They share they they pour it out and uh, and then also I get I've been approached by people from and again using the new platforms like gary v and tim Um, I don't even have a fraction of the audience, but because I'm in my niche Yeah, people reach out to me from iraq Oh, yeah, you buy partner I just I'm excited. I'm heading in the direction. I'm not gonna do so much what you're doing But I have this whole what I call a practical framework for Building a great business and a great life. That's what I call it. It's a practical framework And I want to share it. I want to put it out there for entrepreneurship everywhere, you know, and I used to be And we'll carry, you know, some of these guys are doing great things But they're in their niches. I'm just like let's reset come back and start at the basic Because because too many times we jumped way ahead I did we jumped way ahead And I did it without the right foundation and that was the challenge. Wow. Wow, okay Let's say some parting words. We'll close out and then that way we can Yeah, after we close out if we could chat, let me know. Well, no, we definitely definitely So no you go ahead and you let me know what you like to tell everybody I mean, we're gonna make all of your contact information available. Whatever you like on the website afterwards once it releases But any parting words for everyone out there? Yeah, no, well, I can be Feel free to reach out to me and you can share my linkedin in my website and that's no problem and I'm out of chicago, but if there are people In construction that are looking at team or partner too, they can reach out to me as well anywhere in the country Okay. No, no, well, uh, david listen, I want to thank you today for sharing your information knowledge your wisdom all of your experiences You know, it was great. I had a lot of fun Same here. All right. Thank you so much