 I am with Grace Kinotea. She is a psychologist to help us in this discussion. Karusana Grace. Thank you. How are you feeling? I'm good. Thank you so much. Okay, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. We are talking about mental health awareness and particularly reducing suicide. If you look at these numbers, look at the reason. It's just recently that we had a particular student, a pupil, who was accused of stealing pencils and committed suicides because of that. When you look at these numbers, what comes through your mind? One, we have two ways of looking at it. Is it that now we are getting the number because we are more aware of there's been now the conversation on suicide or what's happened before but you are not aware. Okay. But then it also means that especially during COVID, the numbers tend to have increased because of pressure, societal expectations, struggles, issues, change transitions. When things get unpredictable, it means it has an impact on your mental health as well. So it means it tends to go on the rise because one again, did we have support systems to ensure that mental health was taken care of, which is a no. So you tend to see that the numbers have been increasing. Then also again, when you also look at it this way, most of the time now because we're in the suicide awareness month, suicide is not like a one type thing. This is something that has been building up. So once we get the triggers, then you find that's why we are working time bombs. So once you trigger, then most people think, what next, suicide? What next? And that's the first thing that comes in your mind. I'm looking at men and women. Okay. Why are we seeing men doing it more than women? What is it that we need to change to have these numbers reduced, especially from the side of men? Because as a man, I'm also concerned. Okay. The highest cost of whatever contributes highly is depression. And you find that depression is very high among men. The African culture ideally I think world oil. Men are inbuild to shut down, go silent on the issue and not speak more about it. Why else compared to women? For a woman, if I meet a fellow lady here and say, hi, most life issue, how are you doing? And I'll complain you, the traffic 1, 2, 3. I can meet a fellow lady and start complaining about the kids or whatever has happened. But men are built to be, how is it? I'm trying. I'm okay. But then you find that they're building in a lot. And what happens when you build in a lot? Depression comes in or it starts by being, it could be mild then it turns out chronic. So you find that men tend to be at higher risk. Then also the way the African society has built us is more like it's a weakness to ask for help as a man especially. It's a weakness to say I can't do it. Then there also, it's more demanding to be a man than it is to be a woman. As much as the roles, a man feels like, as a lady I can say, you know what, my finances are not okay. Who will I go to the man? But for a man before you get to the point whereby, you know what, my finances are not okay. I need help. It's a bit hard. They don't have anyone to go to. They don't have themselves. No really, because I believe there are a lot of people who have no idea that men are struggling. Because most of the time men have a skill masking up or maning up what they have been taught. So you find that at times if you ask maybe around anybody who has a man who is depressed or a man struggling with mental health issues or even the ladies around you could ask, have you ever had a man struggling? They would be like yes, how long did it take you for you to know that? They would be like when they were breaking down at the end point. Because you find most likely men don't come straight forward and say, you know what, I'm struggling. You know for a lady she is going to hit her toe and she is going to complain about it the whole day. But I think maybe it's that men have not learned the skill of communicating and speaking out. And also I think because it's an ego issue whereby that's where they hold their ego. They need to look all good having it all together. All macho. Yeah exactly. You must be compact. You are the one who should be in charge. Let's talk about something different by the way ladies and gentlemen. If we are to have this particular discussion we need to have solutions. Let's talk about how can we approach men? How can we tell our men to be open with us? It's okay to cry. It's okay to let go. Is this something that women have a big role to play when it comes to changing the perspective of the men? True because you find that. I normally challenge men because there is this conversation whereby men most of the time are going to say, you know you have empowered the girl child, you have left the man behind. But then most of the time you will ask, who is empowering the girl child? We will ask you. Who empowers the girl child? The whole society, everybody. Women started complaining. So the women are empowering the girl child? Exactly. If you find that it's very easy for me to jump even on the streets and see a lady suffering. I'll be like, no, something's wrong. I need, how can this lady end? Nothing might disturb a lady the whole day or even call somebody and come in and help. But for men you'll just pass by and that's okay. But most of the time, when was the last time you met a young boy or you thought you needed to step up for a young gentleman? You find that men don't do that. But then by the end of the day you want to say inequality. You know women are the ones who have been given more. Women are doing this, women are doing that. But it's women who stand in for each other. But men don't have that thing. We have meant that to that. But also you find that even us women are still the same people who are standing up for the boy child. And then we still need to convince the gentleman to stand in for the boy child. So, okay. And I'm drawn from the psychological point of view as a psychologist. I'm drawn to this narration where somebody hears a man saying mum's stressed. I'm worried. I don't know what to do. I feel like giving up. They say, be a man. Be a man. But I am the woman in this house. You be the man. Is that what should be said? Is that how it should be addressed? Stress? No, because again you find that mental health is another. It's like a illness, like any other. So if your man comes home and says I'm having a headache. Most likely it's like can I get you painkillers? Can you rest? If you say I'm having a backache, you need to get checked by the doctor. How comes to make it so different when it comes to mental health? It's because I think one is lack of awareness. This whole concept, I think we started recently understanding. I don't know when was the first time you had the term suicide. How old were you? Suicide. I don't know. I can't tell. Mental health? Mental health I've been hearing it like forever. And initially I was associating it with madness. And maybe that's maybe when you're in campus or something. We were above 18 or something. So you find that we have not been educated that mental health is an illness. Like you know the way you can have anything else in your body undergoing. And then it's chronic. You've not been taught like these are sickness like any other. So there's no way you say to a sick person, grow up, man up. It doesn't happen like that. You need to be empathetic. You need to look for ways to get for help. So for anybody else, when you come from the point where you understand this is an illness like any other, then it makes you more human. You sit down and say how can you step in? How can I help you? So I think that's the first point. So we need to have discussions where we are asking each other how can I step in? How can I help you? As a man it's okay for you to do this. And then we will help the men. Let's talk about the women. Mental health, suicide rates particularly. We are seeing women although the numbers are fewer than men but it doesn't mean that it's not as important. How can we also help our women in terms of reducing this suicide rate? I think again we should import mental health as a agenda issue whereby you see when you talk about cancer, HIV, ETC we don't specifically say how do we help men with HIV? How do we help women with HIV? When we look at it generally as a health issue I think the bigger question is how do we step in for the society? But then again because you asked about women how do you support women? I think it comes from education awareness because most people don't even understand. Like when most people are undergoing mental health people don't know how to watch out when I'm being depressed. People don't know how to watch out when I'm being suicidal. I'm looking at it from this angle as Grace and this is one discussion that I've had several where I've seen people ask about the men. It's all about men, men, men. Unless you have I rarely hear a discussion where we are saying that let's talk about it generally All I hear is men reducing suicide in the man, in the man, in the man. Is it not so? It's the same thing. Also when you look at things that now contribute most of the things that contribute to men being suicidal is gender based violence. But then again you find that the flip side now of gender based violence people don't talk about men being undergoing gender based violence, GBV they talk about women. And suicides we talk about men. Not understanding it's something that happens on both sides. So then again when you look for suicide in women I think the question would be why? What's the common dominator among the women who have been committing suicide? Most of the time you find it's relationship issues financial issues most of the times and work stress related issues. Good, good, good. So you agree with me? Yes. I've just said the flip side of gender based violence. Okay, okay. Now I'm looking at the high rates in terms of our children our school going kids. Yes you say as a society we need to talk about it. But what is the role of our education institutions our education system our learning institutions when it comes to this suicide prevention and awareness. Because we had recently a pupil who committed suicide in school after being accused of stealing a pension. There's another who committed suicide after failing to acquire a certain grade in class. How can we reduce that? What we need to do for our education sector? Okay, there are schools that have been open to having psychologists in personally like we run programs in schools there are schools that have been open to come to the basics of mental health. You see like how you teach the basics about hygiene there are people who have been open to integrate be it once a week or something which starts with awareness. Once these kids are able to learn this is what mental health is this is how I know when I'm stressed this is how I know I can reach out to anybody then it becomes easier for them to be able to recognize then when you give the soft skills the life skills that we need how do you know failure is not the end of life how are you able to tackle challenges how do you know if somebody accuses you it doesn't have to impact your identity that's a them issue what are you issue how do you stand up for yourself how do you seek for help or how do you you know sit down and have this conversation how do we even teach our kids not to bully each other you know in terms of if somebody has told you something how do you report to the right person and say hey this is how and even the conflict resolution methods the basic soft skills that we need as human beings so if those are integrated in schools then we would bring up a generation that has less trauma less mental health issues because people have the skills because these are still the same things that we are struggling with as adults and even as talk about it teachers in schools also need to have an approach towards it do you think do you agree with that and is there a way that our teachers can help our kids whether it's good because now for example in boarding the parent isn't available it is the teacher that's available how can the teachers play a role in regards to how they interact with students I think it begins with self-awareness is the teacher aware of mental health because you can't give something that you're not aware of so if the teachers were trained to recognize or to monitor these things once you know like this is how somebody is sick when they start coughing the sense and symptoms if every teacher was equipped in this then it means that's the basic part whereby they're able to know a student is not okay this is how schools have peer counselors and then they can take that further from the psychological perspective because that's your profession what are some of these scenarios that you've encountered during your time as you interact with people that have stood out when it comes to this issues of suicide case and just to mention just but a few and how have you managed to go through them and handle them and how do we copy paste that approach to the world where we say you know what in cases like this we need to do this and that for me the greatest thing that I've learnt over time is life skills is key or skills people need and then that's something most people have lack because most of the time by the time somebody is ending up into society as I said when you try and maybe backtrack how did this start what happened you find most of the three the three things that have found that people are lacking or maybe four things is one people lack self awareness when it comes to the identity whereby the identity is attached to a lot of things so once if your identity is attached to your family once your family has gone your undergoing separation or divorce that's it you know you feel like your life purpose is over then something else we've not been able to integrate in our society is self care we were never taught how do you take you know create your boundaries how do you take care of your mind how do you take care of yourself that's something else I've learnt how to you know people lack the skills of how to go by the other thing will be transition whereby people don't know like for example when COVID happened we didn't have an idea like when hard times come this is how you transit this is how you move very fast most people were confused and people got into you know depression stress, etc because things were changing very fast so another thing you know when people lose their jobs people don't get warnings like you know at times you go to your work and you told in the next one week we are retrenting people and that's it when people undergo things like death this gravy process so transition most of the things people don't know how to transition from one state or we don't have the skills to enable us transition the other things that are found now leading to society is finances and relationships combined so you find that most people or even stress and depression you find that most people are going to end up depressed because they lack financial management skills so you ask them you ask them why you stress but when you follow up it's because I don't have money so even if you take this person through therapy even if you take them they're down like for a whole year if they don't have money they'll never be okay because they need you know be it entrepreneur skills how do they get their money or things in order that's what they need to learn when it comes to relationship if somebody is not in the right relationship or they don't know how to be in the right relationship you find even if you sit down talk to them and they're still in the abusive place or talk the place or they don't know how to handle it then it's a cycle and do we have those cases that you've interacted with that's what we do for a living so you find that those are the common issues every time somebody walks in I was even telling a friend the other day most of the time you can even there's a season especially from July going downwards I think it was mostly relationship issues and we were speaking to professionals like okay I hope today we can get something different other than me each day we get a different channel because you sit down and every day the relationship and you're like okay you're not becoming a relationship expert by the end of the day so you end up specializing with one thing but you find that most of the things that's what has been happening now Grace I want us to narrow it down let's bring it home to the family to the basic level where we are looking at an interaction between a parent and a child and we are looking at changes because you mentioned awareness etc how should we address suicide rates at the family level from the home where we have people who stay together every single day it starts from communication conversations when we are teaching our kids I'm a parent now by virtue of that when we are teaching our kids by whereby we are teaching them hygiene we take time to teach them this is how you wash your hands this is how you do one, two, three when we are teaching most of our kids about sexual health reproductive literacy we take time to do the whole disclaimer which there are some problems that have a problem with that still which isn't it there is the importance of that or either way when you are teaching your kids strangers danger how to protect yourself we say are we able to start these conversations from the basics we eat even three years old how was your day and the child would say good what made it good you start in that conversation and the child can say bad what made it bad and if they are not able because you also learn something interesting I've learned for adults most adults only know emotions good but okay fine and if you ask them anything past that anything beyond that they don't know what to label their emotions but if we are able to go down for the kids and teach them how to label the emotions and teach them why and it is not small talk it doesn't mean you don't have anything to say they just concern you are trying to make them open up to understand themselves better yes and when they are able to do that if they say I was frustrated what made you frustrated a certain kid 1, 2, 3 okay where do you think they did that what was your role in it and they can say nothing if they say nothing maybe if you see a role they played you empower them enough to have that conversation and if they feel maybe bullied their esteem is down that's the part you start training them have to have a better esteem or higher esteem so that by the next time they are feeling frustrated they don't they are not struggling how do I go home and say I was frustrated but because there's a conversation that started early enough they know even frustrated or even feeling helpless I can always call somebody and they will listen to me because most of this young adults or teenagers that are struggling is because that is not a conversation they've ever had and that's why families need to have discussions at home talk about how their day has been talk about how their mind how they feel talk about sexual issues talk about sanitization talk about everything at home so that if your child goes through something in school they'll be able to come and tell you that this is what I've been going through because you started it at home and it's very important because you find that your child will never be bullied your child will never be harassed by a policeman because even if I make a mistake home is a safe place I can go admit at home I made a mistake and there's no shame there's no bullying I won't feel guilty about it because home I have people who are going to sit down and correct me and tell me you know what yes you made a mistake this will be the consequences but how do we learn to do better because families are different and sometimes having these discussions isn't as easy as we make it sound on TV talk to a parent today who is wondering how can I reach to my child because some parents have the struggle I'm trying to reach out to them I've tried nima muliza ma suali I've asked him questions I've tried to engage him but I'm not reaching out because some say he's just an introvert yet we are seeing children committing completing as some say suicide is it possible for a parent to detect it on time and handle it amicably and how can they do that yes it's possible one you need to be to learn your child because anybody who is most of the time there always the signs there always the same terms you need to be very you need to be attuned to your child you need to be attentive to your child you need to pay attention of the small things and you need to offer that safe space and this only means that it doesn't attempts also speak about your rough days at work to your child exactly it doesn't mean necessary you're trying to vent them out but you can speak to them when you know the boundaries of how you're supposed to represent yourself attempts our kids don't think we're struggling as adults the kids will look up to their parents at perfect human beings and for them the greatest issue is how can I be like my mum how can I be like my dad they have no idea so they feel like if I come to you you won't understand but are you able to say attempts work is but this how we manage it and they are able to come back and ask this what I am going through how can I manage it if you feel you're not understanding your child attempts you can even walking for family therapy or counseling or it is here with the child and start that journey together because it's never too late okay yeah is it possible for a parent to pick up suicidal tendencies from the child yes from whom yes okay most of the time if you learn your child is acting differently if you learn your child has been stressed if you learn your child is having a hard time and maybe they don't want to go back to school they don't want to engage certain family members you say the part where they say no and you think no you just been spoiled that conversation if they say no are you able to sit down and say why are you saying no if they say I don't feel like talking about it to you can you offer can I get you a professional or can you talk to your aunt who are you comfortable speaking with because maybe they are now 16 and you've never had that conversation so it's not something that is going you know start into it and they're going to start opening up and they're going to say you know when you're serving this one but if you offer them and also it's been mature enough to understand I can't do it if I can't do it I'll allow somebody else to do it who are these people that parents should feel free with to allow their child to talk to because I'm looking at a scenario where a parent is asking themselves this question who is the best person to talk to my child and they're confused so they end up doing nothing and they end up wanting to address these issues on their own so when you can ask your child I think you're undergoing something and I'd like you to talk to a trusted person you can come to me you can go to a teacher or you can go to a professional once you offer those then family are different there are people who have good family structures they have good sisters brothers you can go to your aunt or your uncle so you can offer the child and the child can say okay yes I'm going to speak to a certain aunt and the aunt thereby can decide you know your family and you know how the level of capacity people are capable of if not you can decide let's go to for a professional counselor it's going to be confidential you can go speak to somebody and that's it do religious also play a role here yes they do I know there's this conflict between professionals and religious leaders but then again you find that you know when suicide was very prevalent of very high when the time covid we never went for churches or something the only some some of the people are holding it or they have faith or hope is because they're able to go to church if you take away their religion out of they don't have somebody who struck me and woke up today because they know God exists or their higher power exists whoever they believe in and that's what's keeping that person going on now some parents get a complaint from a child say dad I will kill myself and the parent says go do it I'll bury you and you'll move on what do you think about that so as again I say mental health is not in illness it's not like something to sit down and opt you know what I'm going to it's not a choice but the time it gets then also we need to society is the last result it's normally the last thing that we see or the last way of communication that it means something has been building up within them it's been long time and you are not able to pick up so this is the end part whereby you've seen you know you've just seen at the tip where these have been there down and it's just rain of the tip so I think the thing would be are you able to want it's an illness they didn't choose they didn't wake up today and decide what do I want to do once you understand you're dealing with a sick person it's a process it's a process then that becomes easier for you to know a sick person needs to be in hospital so do not address your child like that no, not even your child even your friend even your friend it's an illness and something else you need to know that person is a danger to you in the society what if they decide they're going to suicide bomb themselves you're also involved if they decide to do it in the house what if they decide they're going to do it with the other kids or whoever if they if it's a colleague they decide to do it at work and everybody's at work so once we understand there's an illness and we need to seek for help and ask for help and tell people you know what this person needs support let us give them the right support system now I want us to bring this discussion to a close let's go to the workplace we've seen people commit suicide because of work how can we help here again having systems in the workplace that allow us to communicate having teachers who are empowered enough to notice these things having supervisors and manager your positions people who are able to be empowered there are also workplaces there is one that is it the UK just came up with whereby we have established systems in the workplace and they train people to do that and I think it's also been replicated around in Benin, Africa whereby we empower people in the workplace whereby they're supposed to just learn how are you able to create a non-toxic workplace a place that is able to have mental health integrated in the workplace especially the sea suits because they are mostly given so much stress the sea suits kinds of people so we need to have a department in every institution that talks about that does cancelling and guidance yeah we also need to have whereby like the workplaces whereby you need a mental health report to every year you need to have attended sessions so they ensure it is stamped by the professional and every time when you the year is starting maybe it's every January or every July you have to take it there wow yeah I want us to bring this discussion to a close and I want to give you time to have a final word what would be your parting short and I would like you to talk to all Kenyans while watching you this fine Monday morning especially the youth that is your camera your parting short as we bring this discussion to a close okay I'll say again as audience so said is an anas mental health is an anas sick help it's an emergency if you find somebody who is undergoing who has societal tendencies societal thoughts societal attempts that's an emergency and it's okay not to be okay you can always reach out wow and how can they get a hold of you okay Instagram jitunze.com Facebook jitunze Twitter jitunze wellness numbers is plus two five four seven triple one double eight three hundred say it one more time plus two five four seven triple one double eight three hundred and of course on Facebook is that jitunze yeah jitunze get a hold of her let's talk about this it will help you okay because we need each other and of course we love each other express love show love and mean it true love is what makes the world go round exactly does Grace thanks so much for coming I appreciate it thank you for having me and of course that business to the end of this morning conversation right here on matters concerning health remember it has been all about suicide prevention and awareness I hope you've learned something I sure have my name is Ram Aguko it's been a pleasure being with you we're taking a short break right now in the morning but we'll be back with more in a bit