 Good evening. I was not aware we were starting on time today. Usually we start nine quarter past, but since we're so full-house Let's get started Welcome to our second talk here tonight in the Istanbul 95 Series. It's a great pleasure for us to have Algar here. I got Blitz from Amsterdam We're very curious to see what you will show you they show us here tonight But being from Istanbul, I'm sure you know some of the work that the Algar have done in this city But I will leave the floor to you Algar and looking forward to here Okay For your kind introduction. It's actually great honor for me to be here The first time ever that I'm simultaneously going to be translated by someone Thank you. I've never had that before only people repeating my words Istanbul I'm from Amsterdam Amsterdam is a village compared to Istanbul. That really intrigues me I was thinking what am I going to tell you actually? What can I bring for you? Because I don't know anything about Istanbul or hardly So I thought it would be good to actually tell you about what intrigues me what I find important and hopefully You like it First a small introduction because Carp is the design studio. I found it 20 years ago But Carp is not only me Carp is a whole bunch of people and without them I'm nothing that's how simple it is These are not the actual people yet because I didn't have a newer picture that gives you an idea But this is how we still like to see each other Children playing around because designing is actually also kind of play we play With the stuff that we have and we shape that into a design and we try to keep this Childhood way of looking at a child is not not Charlie, but like looking at it as a child We work all over the world Which is very very nice It also means a lot of traveling and It's very strange to come in other areas where you have no idea about the culture and they expect you to tell you something I always feel a little bit strange them because what shall I tell actually? Just a few products that we have done over time to get you an idea maybe you've seen part of our work, maybe you haven't And Quickly the one in the left corner is a museum area The second one is in Singapore. You will probably recognize the right lower and core low Corner, which is the soil center here in Istanbul Many different projects so now we are going to the real subject What does play mean? people have lots of Descriptions for play, but this is how I look at it and what I have learned over time First of all play is the base of all culture now. We're playing at this moment. You're listening. I'm telling there's a kind of a role play This was there is a famous book of your own house can go as such a story in that wrote the book home alluding that's all about play Play is everything that comes after mankind's need if you have slept If you have eaten if you have a roof over your head all the rest can be considered play This is an image of Aldof van Eyck who used play actually to have people meet in the city Now what kind of playground mean because we are designed playing playgrounds. I Wouldn't mind if it's a little bit lower Can everybody hear me very well? Okay What kind of playground mean what can I contribute actually to a place? Well, first of all it should evoke play that's kind of obvious because otherwise it's not a playground Then we Should be able to give identity to a place because if I look at playgrounds They're all the same. They're all the same houses. You're not saying I I meet you at the playground there But here you meet at the blue square, you know actually Where you are sense of place that is something that the playground can do for a neighborhood Could be sculpture. I don't know why should it actually be the equipment that we know it should actually If the option for a non-directive way of using Or could it even cater for the unexpected something that we didn't design But on this one hot day out of the year in the Netherlands because usually it's very cold People just filled it up and it became something else. That is actually what I cannot design this This is a part surprise for me as well. And this is a very old project and I still like it up to today Because this is what people do with the design that we the play design that we make A brief history Because what we do there's nothing new about what we do And I found this picture of Kuro Kaneko This is from 1935 in Japan Even for today's standard. This is a very very exciting Different playground No Gucci famous artist actually he wanted to give I Am a little bit faster you wanted to give some sort of a social meaning to a sculpture and that's how we got into designing playgrounds and We are still learning from that today, but again, there's nothing new. This is design I can tell you lots about it, but we have seen what other people already have done in the 20th century Or in this oiler center learning from Kuro Kaneko Actually, I didn't know about the Japanese slide before but there's nothing new in this world And that is actually very interesting every time we reinvent play for certain spaces But what happened? Before the 80s of last century many playgrounds were actually being designed or developed by artists by architects by Local initiatives we wanted to do something, but suddenly the world Or I should say the commercial world took over Safety became a big issue which is of course a big issue, but it resulted in this kind of Playgrounds you're probably all familiar with For me, they're not very attractive although Children might think about that in a different way And then we even invented a natural play we make wooden playgrounds. This is probably not the nicest example There's nothing natural about this as there is natural about that It's the same house actually The natural play should be playing in nature and not with a swing made out of a natural material And then my question is isn't all Play natural by nature It doesn't matter where you play it is about how you play And that can be in a green environment And this is a bad image, but it's Sorry for that But this is the one after it is completely artificial Environment, but it's the same type of play So we should actually look at it From a broader perspective see what can you do with it rather than what does it look like? Which is strange saying so because I'm a designer Another thing that I wanted to address is we're always talking about all inclusive everybody's invited if you're in a wheelchair You should be able to get there, which is also a good thing But this is what we built for impaired Children to me it looks like torture incidents I found this on a website. They were actually Saying look at this playground. How great is it? We built this as all inclusive playground There are no children there, but I don't see how it works either And what does that mean all inclusive because we're talking about wheelchair people are we talking also about mentally impaired Physically impaired socially handicapped autistic children. We always forget about it. We think about wheelchairs Um So my question would be should play focus on disabilities or capabilities And I'm showing you this image because it's a playground actually built around a ramp But nobody actually recognizes this as a playground for disabled And that is the main quality of it Um So should it look like that this is also built around the toolkit For disabled children they can actually reach practically everything on the wheelchair Only for the last bit they have to get out Um visually impaired They can actually use the playground very very well But we never have the sign so that they can learn how work develop discover on forehand how you can use this playground and um To be honest this boy is not impaired, but do we know we have no idea um Because it's actually the son of my uh companion in the company, but I just want people to look at it. We have no idea. We don't know we we have no idea what impaired we are all impaired in a way Um, then another thing why should playgrounds have lots of color Very nice colors cotton candy like everybody likes it Or I hope we all agree this is not such a nice color scheme Or maybe the ugly Probably we don't even want to have this around the corner Although I think it's very nicely done and they nicely stay within the shape of the skate park Um It's a little bit difficult to see but this is actually all black with a hint of color And this is one time we did all black playground and um Children won't mind. They just see your playground. They're totally not interested in the color schemes that we all think of And actually what they did they used it as a blackboard One of these other things we tried to or I wish I could incorporate in the design Of uh beforehand, but I cannot they they just did this and this is great so Then can play be a catalyst and with can play be a catalyst. I mean can it be A catalyst for a certain space in the city or in the village or maybe even In a park And I chose this image of a mine site in Belgium Where they actually Use this to attract tourists It's a playground the question is can you build a playground? But it's meant to get tourists back into the area because the mine is closed that need to be a little bit more activity Uh And people look at it and ask what is it for? I don't know but can you play on it? Yes, certainly you can play on it. Take a look at it And and it's a very steep climb everybody wants to get up. I can tell you if you're in front of it you want to get up and Over here, there's also what we call a stairway to heaven all grown-ups are using this playground If we say it's a playground, they are probably a little bit scared off, but if they look at it, they're all They're all willing to try to see how they can get up And I call it a monument for camaraderie because all people that used to work in the mine Before that don't see each other anymore Go there with their children and they talk to each other and they meet each other again And Well, I can go on like this, but it's Quite clear what we mean Um Can history repeat itself? um Let me further explain in the beginning of the 19th 20th century, there was this health And A health movement I should say people should get outside Shoot exercise Should Be in the open air the building should have large windows, etc. etc and in Amsterdam in the layout of Amsterdam From that time that is the beginning of the 20th century They had the urban layout and they kept open spaces for playground and this is seriously in 1908. It was an open field with swings and sea sauce um That really became the place to be to go to with for all families with kids But also for grandparents for everyone and they had an organization there a playground association that Maintained the equipment, but there was also a social hub People gathered there people met there And But then something happened The city was taken over by cars And in the meantime I need to express that the organization of these playground Foundations collapsed people didn't want to do that anymore And 30 years later we have solved the problem a little bit of the cars. They're nicely parked But still there is I actually need to explain sorry um This street here There's hardly any cars there Here you have more and here actually the whole playground has disappeared because it's surrounded by cars And the children that live here actually cannot really easily reach the playground anymore And then the next step in Amsterdam because this is an episode was taking out the cars and put them under the ground And now the buildings are again connected to this playground again the the playground is actually here It's all the same space. We're talking about And this is what it looks like today It is An area that is completely renewed and used for play sports Etc but it's Also a commercial space because there is a little coffee shop And that is the new neighborhood. This is taken over from the playground foundation So we try to find new ways to solve the same problem. That's actually what I want to express here so I've called this steps strategies to enhance play spaces in urban Areas And what can we do? I recently have been working together with or urban design for the city of Amsterdam on a book called the active city And the active city was all about strategies about how can we make the city more interesting and actually This is where I wanted to go with my previous story Because we can think about nice playgrounds. We can think about nice sports facilities But how can we actually use play and sports to keep the city active and interesting and attractive to live in? Because that is actually the question behind it or that is a question behind it for me and There were many contributors to this book and of course I contributed to the part of play And this is the new manifest for the city of Amsterdam And I chose this to tell you a little bit more about this because actually This is where I see the relation with Istanbul Except for probably the problems that Istanbul faces are much bigger than Amsterdam Not only from the size But also from the importance of having a car because the active city Is a city that is a healthy city and this refers back to the playground movement in the 20th century again And And I've chosen two projects actually to tell my story One this project You saw in the previous picture. It's called from burning a plane and that is the first one and In short This is the new active city How can we get cars out of the street? How can we make people move in buildings? How can we let children play? How can they reach the playground? How can we cycle to school? How can children cycle to school? How can we have small sports hub near your house? Lots of things Are addressed in this book And for me sports and play Although sports is probably for a different age group don't differ that much. You've got recreational sports I used to be a skateboarder. Is that playing? Is that sport? I don't know And first of all and you've probably all seen this and this is a little mistake in my presentation here It's the importance of spatial justice. I'm not telling you anything new And this is about how much hours per day should children actually have physical activity Adult and uh all the people because that is really important. They need to do that to stay healthy But where can they do that? These were the two main Issues that we discussed in the book from certain perspectives and from my perspective that was Uh play Okay cycling or walking main activities. I know that director is from Copenhagen. He'll recognize it is although these are tourists on a bicycle But your green spaces are being used as activity spaces these days um So people already do this They invent things in the city to play and Activities like parkour or free running and What we are doing at the moment in Amsterdam is having sports facilities being opened up And if you take a good look there's no fans around it. This is just a public Running track So you need to have open facilities not closed off facilities and An example case of an active space And I start with a park and this is an old project and this is a project that has been very important for me because it's a long time ago and It took quite a while to achieve this But actually it already addresses the elements. I've just discussed open spaces and Here we go to design tools for for sports and it's about shared sports facilities And big sports facilities and open structures Amsterdam this is Amsterdam is a City that is built like an onion. This is the old city And we've got the first layout then we've got the after second world war layout And this is mainly After 2060 This circle is our periphery And we are discussing this part here This is a big green area within the periphery one of the Parts of the city that is thrown to fell in the hands of developers for building Actually giving up this space To for new buildings Instead of keeping it green and it's very important For all of us. You notice that I'm not specifically talking about play, but this is all about play as well. We play It's very important to keep these open spaces in your periphery Within instead of building them. So you have to go outside in your car to go to a park to go to a playground And this is the area was an old sport complex for For every anyone who is into soccer. This was the old former Ajax Soccer stadium site And this is what it looked like This was an abandoned area people only used it to go from a to b And not after 10 o'clock because you didn't feel secure anymore And our question actually was Can you build a playground here if you build a playground there probably is becoming an attractive space And then we started thinking and I don't know Having a playground Somewhere in the middle where people don't want to go that's not making that is not going to be an attractive space So what we did actually is This is the whole sports facility we discussed with the municipality To see if they were willing to take out all fences Make it public sports facilities. So that there was a new 24-7 activity going on in on this facility rather than going at four o'clock to your training for soccer um And then they suddenly turned out plans of 10 years ago that they had discussed that And they said maybe we should do this. So What we did is we took out first we took out all fencing of this area And then we developed Only this part and we said all the areas in between the sports facilities is actually already park You can run around freely. There's no cars You can make use of it the way you want. You can use the soccer or the sport court facilities and even the Organization that were already there benefited from it because suddenly there was much more activity going on And Then the only thing we actually did physically is building this playground This is a strip in the middle And our only Intervention was this part and the strip here making it green again and making a large playground And this is what it looks like today Um This has a park like character Everywhere it's explained how the How it works that you can make use of everything. So we actually turned it into the largest playground that you can think of um Center section Um families like to go somewhere and bring their lunch and and play Of course, there is the the playground Interesting to mention is that is this is actually a part of the water system of Emsen and that we turned into a water playground um So from here you can actually go to the sports facility and and go back again And this needs no further explanation um What we find important important in playgrounds and this is the hub of this particular area is blending functions Um because we don't believe in making playgrounds that are separated parts 2 to 4 4 to 6 6 to 8 8 12 Can you tell if someone of 5 years old has the motor skills to run up that hill? And uh, does that also mean that another one of 5 year olds has the same motor skills playing is about discover To discover what you are capable of rather than saying this is for you. You cannot do that Um, then we put in and this is another thing For playgrounds. We put in something very specific that is actually not for children for playing Is the professional boulder climbing wall? We had a reason for doing that because it brings in a certain group of people to this area that If you remember, I said it was an abandoned area Now we bring in a dedicated group of professional climbers that are going to use this and then Here they're using it, but please Take a look at this this little boy here is playing and is actually Seeing what these grown-ups are doing there and he's going to ask what are you doing there? Can you teach me etc? So we actually creating a sort of a community on this playground uh Where this particular boulder wall wasn't meant for children um um And we learned that actually by Mixing these things you get the most interesting spaces for playing um If I tell you a little anecdote about this if you put a child in front of a climbing wall It either can climb up and say it's stupid. I can climb up Or it cannot climb up and it says it's stupid. I cannot climb but it's too difficult this wall is really as Tens of different routes On it But they just see how it's being used by the professional wallers. They ask They teach them then they try to do it themselves Uh, and it has become a very very lively part of this sport facility Only because we put a playground in the middle and again I'm not emphasizing on the playground itself But that has all the elements you can expect in the playground as well Again, we use play as a catalyst for space and to activate the space And to turn it or maybe even bind it together because everybody that goes there with his kids Talks to someone else with kids And that is probably More important than anything else Then the von Beuninger plan that was another part that is being addressed in the book um again places without borders And a small square In a Free war layout that means houses for I cannot really say but let's say the working class They had new social housing there. They had this playground there And all these areas in Amsterdam gentrify rapidly Um And are being refurbished renewed Uh, including the playground, but what should you do on a playground because if you participate Are we going to have a bowl court? Are we going to have a playground? Are we going to have a slide? Are we going to have a skate park? Are we going to have a splash pad with water? It's only a small square and it should cater for the whole neighborhood And we always think of elements that we should Incorporate in the playground where we think there are better strategies um Just quickly This this is the square. This was the old playground We have seen it before it developed in the 80s into a sort of a Abandoned place actually here was the the basketball court. He was the cent fit. He was the clubhouse Um, and then we tried to think of a plan and I didn't do this on my own. I did this together with uh for the building's concrete architects and for the Landscaping from dyke and co landscape architects We took out the streets and so All houses around that are connected to the square again. That is already very important So you can move because it's very important for children that they can go somewhere safe They shouldn't be Brought out there by a car. They should just run out their house and go to the playground. That is very important. You don't see it anymore When I came to Istanbul today, I was uh sitting in the taxi another taxi a car And I see the new coastal development And there's plenty of playgrounds there But when you are a child you cannot reach those playgrounds your parents have to bring you there And then you can play for an hour and then we all go to the restaurant or somewhere else importance of play in a city is Places that are Dedicated for play where everybody is welcome and that you can reach when you're six year olds that your parents still believe that you Uh can go there on your own and feel safe not being hit by a car Um And why shouldn't we combine sports and play? Why should a playground and this is uh part of that strategy? Why shouldn't it be a water playground or a panna field or a basketball court in the same time Because we only have the small square and we didn't want to make choices And of course this is not the best basketball court that you can think of or the best water playground that you can think of But it has it all on a very small space Um Again as said about the sports facilities Borderless spaces This is the playground that you can sit there and it has a tree there. What I mean is it is You want that Yeah, sure I come to that later, but it's a good question. That is uh, of course we do but we can elaborate on that a little bit more um Actually, we think this is very nice because you want to be not sitting on this formal Ben share you want to be part of the playing of your kids and look at this She's bringing her baby And daddy is watching and somebody is passing through it should be an environment and it's up to you how you use it um And we also made these transitional areas around the sports facilities because um It can be used for skating. It can be used for uh, uh, on a bmx bike at all There is no Um rigid border Of course, this is the soccer field, but if you want to go skate go skate on on the edges here Um We try to and I showed this image before design Playgrounds that don't tell you this is for this is not a spring rider for two years old Um, actually in the morning. Oh, oh, I'm going way too fast now In the morning, you will find toddlers here because for them there are little, uh Hamok swings Um At the end of the day you will find Very often girls actually sitting there that are 12 years old. They talk to each other and they Play with their phones So it can change over the day Why should it be a spring rider and this place for girls where they can sit or for boys where they can do whatever It can be everything. It depends on the user So what we try to do is we try to almost design Each independent it's on the user Or the user defines what it will be Um, that is also actually raising questions because sometimes people ask what is it for? um Another thing Is the playground for children or for parents or is for families actually it's for all um Again, if I take a look at at most conventional playgrounds, what I see is um Equipment and then there's benches around it, but actually this is designed in a way That you're almost invited to run over Nobody can tell you you're not allowed to run over because is it is it a bench? Is it a table? Is it a playground? We have no idea that also depends on the user. It's obvious obviously that all parents are sitting here and watching the playground But you can also have a lunch there You see what happens children are climbing the trees And we purposely try to design in a way that it doesn't look like a playground because if it does You can play there and you're not allowed to use the other part anymore because that is meant for for as is for sitting or that is meant for Playing basketball So we try to have all these functions overlap in obstacles that are not quite obvious what they really are um For me, this is all clear. It doesn't need any further explanation and again Is it for skating? Is it to sit? You'll have to find out and the whole deer deer is About having a playground for all ages and then i mean two to 88 Somebody then asked me should you put up a sign? Are you not allowed when you're 89? No, everybody's invited. It's 24 seven It's on the user groups how they use it how they make use of it and Honestly monday morning 10 o'clock. Would you expect many skateboarders or be a mixers coming in now their own school? Totals go there with the parents with buggies and believe me, uh, oh I'm using the wrong button They also used it on the on the little trikes. They also Go around it. It's not but you also know that someone on the skateboard will use it differently I guess this guy just did some shopping and it started now and is looking how people actively behave on this square And how they do that so again For us these edges here are very playful and we don't think in designing in um Certain activities, but almost in affordances in it is what you see in it and how you can use this And and then i'm going to be ahead of the question is this Giving problems Because you have different user groups that might come in there on the same time Um, well, we discovered that it takes a couple of weeks, but then they all know exactly in this neighborhood how it works Sunday afternoon four o'clock this This guy, uh, and his friends. I just made this up Play basketball. So this the the people that play football come at a different time slot um skateboarders usually Stay behind this, uh, ball catcher because there's another block of concrete that they can use and Again, nobody that is playing basketball bothers about this child that is having fun with this water jet and The whole neighborhood can use it For other activities as well. Why should it be all filled in and squared off and be exact? and Although this is a little bit of a cheat because this was at the opening It was only To explain that you can use the spaces for much more and believe me the size of this is three small basketball courts And you have a playground for children You have a soccer court. You have small football courts football, uh, or a panna court. You have skate facilities Uh, you have water facilities. There's a clubhouse. There's a coffee shop. There's tables. There is a stage But there is no defined border. It's up to you how you would like to use this Um, again, and this brings me back to the history Is this the new playground or is this the new neighborhood hub where you meet your friends where you meet with other people that have Do have kids where you meet with different age groups um, well, I don't know but After 20 years we're still questioning play That was my story for today. Thank you Thank you very much. I got that was amazing And I think before we open to the to the room. I'm sure there will be plenty of questions and I'm getting noise from there and I have one question How do you get to there let's say we talked before the lecture starts and Do you do workshops with the neighborhoods or have you gained so much experience time over now that you let's say have a menu of things or Maybe because we of course Part of this is also to engage our community I wish it was that easy because it's always it's always a different story and And now I have you had the time to think it think about a little bit more for this particular Um Area it there were many workshops including workshop with disabled because you can reach also of course again with your wheelchair um The thing here is that in this area of Amsterdam people loved it to have their cars being parked on the ground although of course there was a group of people that didn't want to have a Uh building place in front of the house for two years But everybody thought that it was needed In the renewal of this area to have a new playground and everybody was cooperating we had all kinds of user groups we had Images of Playing not of play equipment, but of play activities that they could stick or what they would like or they wouldn't like But most important and I cannot stress this enough Most important is that you cannot be better than your commissioner in this case the municipality That really wanted to believe that this could be done Because I can tell a nice story and say this is this is how we should do it And then people start laughing and they buy some equipment somewhere else. So You're never better than the group. You're never better than the municipality and the commissioning party and you in this particular case There was also besides the participation part a collaboration between architects landscape architects and I call myself then the playground designer That were really willing to mingle everything if the the the playground elements are suspended actually from the trellises There is a part of the playground on one of the rooftops. There is this coffee shop that Have benches of front or tables in front of it that are public So they cannot dominate the space. So everyone was working together in this particular situation Why am I saying this because currently I'm working on another project in Amsterdam that looks like this And everybody is against the parking Garage underground And then nothing happens. You can participate what you want And nothing happens so far. Hopefully we we are able to get there somehow So I'm only saying participation is also about willingness. It is about thinking for other groups if you are You're not a parent, but you want you still should think That is a public space where children play Let's see what I can contribute to that to say it wouldn't it be nice if children could do this and that Rather than only defending your own area and saying not in my backyard So again, there is no tactic. There is no strategy. It's about people from the audience You have some mics that will travel around Thank you very much for this very inspiring presentation Maybe I can take over from gregors. My question was also about how do you approach the locality? I mean, I'm sure even in Amsterdam from neighborhood to neighborhood The cultural background and the demographics are so various That each approach as you said is a different story So, um, how how about this incorporation of this locality into it like because you also have lots of international experience abroad So we we our major issue in in the context of Istanbul is the same So the stratification of cultural differences and then the approach to the to the public space as a play Place can vary as in the case of Zorlu and then in the suburban Regions of Istanbul So how would you approach to this locality issue because it's a very subtle and very complicated complex issue I know there are no very right Answers to that as you mentioned But maybe you can give a couple of hints to the new designers and to the design educators educators Thank you. Well, I started with telling that we are all Experienced because we all have been kids That is so that is really important start thinking about what you like as a kid that that I always tell that because Otherwise we start thinking about images Of what play playground should look like So that is probably my first story that I would tell um Yes, we are working abroad and that is um Strange actually, I know nothing about Turkish culture I know you have very nice food and people are generally very friendly But I it is already very very difficult to address all things that are going on in a space that I live very close to Actually, I live around the corner from the From burning a plane So What shall I say it is it is okay Um It's also about trust I had the opportunity actually to build up this um This uh Amount of uh play space I learned I I wasn't afraid to fail and You know the Zorlu Center Which is a very outstanding playground probably nothing alike in the world You either like it or you hate it. That's what I think and um But Zorlu trusted us to do this And if you don't trust your The the people that are involved You can never do such a thing because then you are watering down everything So it's about building trust between groups of people or stakeholders Going to places show them What is possible? or trying to tell Why they should look at it differently or trying to bring them back to the neighborhood when they were climbing a tree rather than Going up a stair and down a slide with fences next to them so that they cannot fall out or Well, there's hundreds of ways of of of doing this but again Um, there is no strategy or tactic. It's all about you want something you believe in it And you need to understand what is and that is what you said the local finesses the the What is the real problem here? Maybe I show with the park We were asked to do a playground. We said that is not the real the playground is not the real problem It's about having a space there where children can reach the playground where people want to go so maybe You should first rethink and re-question. What is the real question behind the playground because The gentleman At the back standing there told me that there is a saturation of playgrounds in Copenhagen. There is also an Amsterdam But there's not so many good playgrounds where people would love to go to where parents would love to go to Don't don't limit yourself to the playground see it as a contribution to to that space That's all I can say What's next? Of course, we also take questions in Turkish and I think we can have them translated to alga. So Please feel free How about adventure playgrounds? Have you done any of those? Like the ones that are actually kind of completely without any structures like I guess they were started back in the danmark after the war And then now again, I think there's one in wales that was uh, quite famous. I think with because of our documentary You you actually mean like a building playground where you can work with materials or yes, yes where you can Fire and Yeah, well, we we work on premises that had that but the thing is we didn't work on the building playground itself because that Is about having the materials having the tools and there is always someone that is guiding that so We worked on the remnant park, but there was already one there Uh, we don't have to do much About that because that's almost like programming If you mean adventure playgrounds in adventurous heights Things that look like they're extremely dangerous Because believe me, there's two things that kids always and I'm talking about older kids. What do they want? Should be really dangerous And your parents shouldn't be able to see you that are the most two most important things um How can you design for that with all the standards and rules and scared parents that want to have secure places Still you can do many things if you want to one of the examples is that off mine site Nobody believes that 65 meters high one big that is very adventurous, but that's not what you meant with the adventure playground Then if we go back to the issue of the standards, I know this is kind of a boring question But how do you actually deal with new products and getting them approved? Do they go through testing or how do you actually get them manufactured because this was one of the problems that we had As designers we we thought we designed something very cool, but then we couldn't really get it manufactured because none of the playground Producers wanted to deal with it and then the and we didn't want to take the risk of working with kind of a non-playground producer so I've got one sitting there that maybe can give you the answer why they didn't want to produce it No, that this is actually two different questions Very often they don't want to produce it because they want to sell what they have So that is not to their advantage unless they want to explore that part of the market The standard this is a fair it's good that we have standards They're meant to avoid the worst accidents But we have forgotten about that playing is about learning to deal with risks Learning to deal with what we call calculated risks and How are we dealing with this? I happen to be in the German board in the beginning of the 90s and The German safety board the Deutsche Industrie Norm Or standard and I learned that is not by far as strict As the people that are handling the standard that is a problem the people that are making the standards try to keep an open end Because you cannot make a standard for something that is not there yet Another thing actually I took it as serious homework to study the standards To know more about the standards in the background Then the people that are actually what we call the security police that is checking the standard They read it should not be more than this and that and that Not approved where we say it's about Not about Following the standard it's about Understanding where that measurement is coming from I give you an example if you can stick your head in and they get stuck And it's only 60 centimeters above the floor You cannot choke yourself because you can always stand on the floor even the child But the the engineer that is checking that is only measuring and saying hey, it's uh 20 centimeters is not okay not approved. So you really need to know more about it than they do And then there is something what we call safety in a different way But again, you need to have this build-up Knowledge because otherwise you cannot get this across safety in another way is we always use the Dutch example Where if you go to certain countries and there is a pond or a lake there's always a fence around it because otherwise children might drown another way is We have almost obligatory Swimming lessons from four years old on in the Netherlands so all children can swim That's another way of dealing with the issue Where again the standard is not telling you how you should deal with it It says if you do it like this is it's okay, but it doesn't say that you cannot do it in a different way You only need to have this specialist safety inspector Following you and approving it and there you need a lot of As I said build-up knowledge to get that approved again. I give you the example of the mine Uh Hill 65 meters high Basically, you can roll down all the way from from the hill and still we could get that improved approved Took us quite a while, but we we we managed so to your homework and outsmart I think the main maybe the main issue is uh at least in istanbul or in our country We talk about children play parks I don't know how I can translate it to english better This means We are talking about a space Where we have to feed in with certain equipment so that children can play there When the focus is this I mean when the approach is like this then you start thinking of well, what can I put in this park to Make children satisfy children for physical play for social play or for this or that type of play And then it comes up to you know designing, you know, very complex or I mean very artificial units But I think we should took the issue like we have to Provide spaces for Where play is also possible or where children can play I mean not parks for children to play But open spaces open areas Where play is also possible But yeah, it's it's nice to hear that you agree, but I think it's an important issue For us to reading This it is it is all us designers That should advocate this isn't it also the case and not follow what we think is a playground We try to spread that and say it can be done better Can you after you have finished your question can you then translate it for me? No, oh, okay Try to understand, okay Okay, thank you very much. It was a very pleasant presentation. We are also participating in the presentation. How do you get feedback in the designs in the projects you do? Follow the projects as I understand How do you transfer feedback to new projects? Nice question Sometimes we do sometimes we don't if we do a project Let's say here in Istanbul Zorlu We don't get much information about it and I'm not here every day to see what happened how it has changed Etc um in Amsterdam On my bicycle. I very often park through Uh the project that we have done or people even call us say hey Have you noticed that this and that and so and so? so it is We were in in our studio We were actually thinking about that we should do a tour Around all the projects we did in Amsterdam to see what they look like for instance after 10 years one of the complaints we had or actually I should say preconceptions that they were hard to maintain Where standard equipment shouldn't so we should make the tour see if that is true Um But there is no not not a set way that we follow up very often it depends on either the the client or People that make use of it what they tell us and if we think that we need to go Somewhere and then we of course incorporate that experience in in in new projects From the user perspective, I give you the example of the von Beuninger plan Um That worked really well, but we suddenly were here from the project that don't work really well Because people don't call us. They have no idea So there's also a very strange thing It's like the benches in a park If nobody sits there They stay good forever and everybody think this is a good band. That's a little bit of the problem problem We do get information when People think that Certain places need a lot of maintenance And very often that we we do go there and have a look and then we discover that is being used so frequently If you use something very often it's also deteriorated as we are in tear So we get bits and pieces of information in Learning by doing experiencing over the years, but it's not like a Fast way of dealing with it. We always go check after one year after three years after five years. It totally depends I was invited to go to Zorlu Beş dakikanızı alarak Zorlu Center'da ki çocuk oyun alanının oyun grubunun İmalat sürece hakkında birkaç bildirimde bulunmak isterim sizleri Öncelikle ülkemize ve İstanbul'a böyle bir oyun alanı oyun grubu kattığınız için çok teşekkür ederiz Hakikaten dünya çapında insanlar dünya çapında mimarlar peyzaç mimarları firmalar Alanı mızı ziyaret ederek hayranlıkla İzliyorlar geziyorlar ve teşekkürlerini sunuyorlar hem ülkemize hem Böyle bir oyun alanı kattığımız için ben de onlarım bağımında size tekrar teşekkürlerimizi sunuyorum İmalat'a başladığımızda koca kuca beton duvarlar yapmaya başladık Tabi projeleri var detayları var biz bunları okuyabiliyoruz görebiliyoruz Sonuçta ne çıkacağını görüyoruz ancak Kalıpları çakan arkadaşlar,betonlara döken arkadaşlar Biz buraya bir gece konunu mu yapmaya başladık acaba Yeni bir bina mı dikeceğiz diye yorumlamaya başladılar Tabi imalat bittiğinde çok daha farklı bir şey çıktı ortaya hepiniz biliyorsunuz hepiniz gördünüz O duvarların arasında gezinen koşturan saklanmaç oynayan bir yerlere ulaşan çocuklar Kulelere tırmanmalar Çok ciddi bir eğlenceli alan oluştu Müthiş bir tasarımdı Müthiş bir deneyimdi Özellikle şunu da söylemek istiyorum Kulelerin imalatında İmalatı yapan arkadaşlar 30-40 yaşında işçi arkadaşlarından bahsediyorum O metal kaydıraktan kayarak İmalatın sonunda Zemine inmelir öğlen yemeği Ya da akşam mesai bitiminde Onlar için inanılmaz bir tecrübeydi İnanılmaz bir deneyimdi İfade etmek isterim Oyun alanın şu anki durumuna gelecek olursakta Bir kullanım haricinde her şey yerli yerinde duruyor Mail'li alanda Beton kaydırağın olduğu alandaki spinnerlarımızı Sökmek zorunda kaldık Çünkü o spinnerlardaki birçok çocuğun Düşerek yaralanabilme ihtimali Başımıza gelmesi Maalesef onları kaldırmak zorunda kaldık Onun dışında tüm imalatlarınız Tüm tasarımınız O güzel bir şekilde Sağlıklı bir şekilde kullanılıyor Yerinde duruyor Ufak tefek yaralanmaları Ufak tefek kazalar oluyor 1000 kişi içerisinde 1 kişi belki Bunları yaşıyor E tabi deformasyonlar alıyor Gerek epidemide gerek Beton kaydırağın boyalarında Deformasyonlar alıyor Tüm peyzaj imalatlarında olduğu gibi Bu çocuk oyun alanında da Gerek beton boyalarında Ufak tasarımınızı Eserinizi yaşatmaya çalışıyoruz Yaşatarakta devam edeceğiz Tekrar çok teşekkür ederim Thank you Did you understand? Okay It's heavily heavily used every day Isn't that true? So there is always Weird things going on From the room? Yes You talked about your clients Probably as municipalities Or like shopping malls and so on But the end user Is the children And you don't really get to talk to your client Most of the time probably During the business time So after 20 years Of experience What would you say is the biggest challenge To have kids as your final client? Good question They're the easiest clients you can have Because they're always happy Because they're the parents that are complaining So I've never showed an image to them And they said that No, no, this is what we don't want So I think They all talk about it And all like it They are my best clients Thank you very much Thank you for having me