 Hello and welcome. I am Gauhar Raza and you are watching Kyureka, a program that brings the most brilliant segment of society, the scientists and technologists of the country face to face with you. Let me begin by telling you again a story. A boy was born in a middle class family in a historical city of India, Kualya. There were lots of twists and turns in his life. He wanted to do physics and mathematics, a brilliant student, yet he ended up doing engineering. He wanted to do job and then he ended up doing research. He wanted to remain in IIT Kanpur, but he landed up in Bangalore. And this is how his graph of education and research progressed. The only thing which remained constant in his life was excellence and desire to achieve what he wanted to achieve in life. Welcome Professor Shiv Gaonkar. Thank you. Let's go back to memory lanes which I described. Was I correct? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely correct. Now tell me, when you look back, was it your family because of which you had developed this commitment? Was it the environment around or was it the school that you attended, a small school in a historical city? What was it? Actually, there was no very definite path that time defined. As you said, I was born in a lower middle class family. My father was in railways, my mother was a housewife and our family was a very religious oriented family. In my extended family, the education was certainly not on the priority. But my mother and my father, they realized that if you really want to achieve something high in life, you have to get good education. So, in spite their limitation on the resources, they really encouraged me to do in education, go for higher studies as much as I wanted. The schooling which I got, people were very dedicated in the school. It was a small school, it was a Marathi medium school in Gwalior. But the teachers who taught me, they were extremely dedicated people. Do you remember some of the teachers? I do remember some of the teachers. Who was the best? Actually, there was an English teacher who was in my high school. His name is Chikteji. He was again a social worker. Not only a teacher, but he was like a mentor. You can go to him anytime, any problem which you have, you can go to him. There was a mathematics teacher, Danekar, who was there. We were very impressed by mathematics. So, the science subject which was not in my family, but when I really was exposed to science, I was really excited. I thought, this is something, you know, which... Was it because of the teacher? Maybe because of teachers also. But before that, as I said, you know, since it was only a religious family, I was exposed to only religious activities. The religious literature, the religious testament, most of the festivals, you know, which you can imagine, they all were actually held in our house. Our joint family, my uncle's family was there, our family was there, my grandparents used to live. So, where did you get this scientific temper? It was in school. It was in school. It was mainly school that shaped your life and forced you to develop expertise in science. That's good. And in school, you were very clear that you are going to do science in life. Science really impressed me. So, I wanted to do science. There was no doubt about it. But the biggest problem was I did not have an environment of science because in my family, nobody was really from science. So, no help from... No help from family, except the encouragement which they gave. But otherwise, there was no... But they knew the value of education and always encouraged you to seek for whatever you wanted to seek. Absolutely. Absolutely. In science, when it was only limited to school, what kind of hardship did you face at home? One was, of course, the environment was not there. So, I did not have anybody to really talk to or discuss relating my problems. So, I had to face the problem myself. Maybe sometime we go to... Yet you were determined. I was determined. I was determined that I will do science because I thought that is something which looks interesting. And many... At that time, many achievements were there inside, like things were gone on moon and the person was landed on moon and so on. So, it looks something very, very exciting, very... Which one can follow for the rest of the life? So, that was basically the motivation. Did you want to become an engineer at that time? Well, when I was a child, my father was in railways and when he was in Agra, that time he was posted in Agra, and I must be just four years old. And I used to go to receive him on station, Raja Kumandi station. And that time my most fascination was towards the engine. So, my father used to take me to the engine and the driver would take me on the engine and show me that the boiler there is this thing. And I had something in my mind that engine and engineering are probably the same. So, I thought I should become an engineer because this looks something exciting. Otherwise, there was nothing very definite which we said that I would go for engineering. But engineering looked more interesting because it had applications, you know, you could see lots of things happening. But you were more keen at that time in physics and mathematics? Physics and mathematics. Yes. So, how did you join engineering? Okay, so, so physics and mathematics is still very fascinating. And when I was in high school, you know, the most exciting thing was optics. So, when I conducted experiments with lenses and prisms, I was really fascinated by some of the fundamental principles. But they were very exciting principles. So, mathematics of course was always very good. The calculus when I was exposed to, you will not believe it, but before the school started, I finished the entire calculus book. I solved all the problems of calculus. Normally, I student in a school at high school or pre-university level gets completely put off when he's introduced calculus. Calculus is one of the most difficult, most difficult ones thing in mathematics. But the concept that you see in calculus was so profound and was so exciting that I could solve all the problems of calculus before even the school started. You were interested in music. Yes. Did calculus appear to you like music? Mathematics is, you know, music and mathematics has some, some relation. You can't really explain that, you know, what is the relationship. But yes, when you say music also, you have very definite patterns, you know, definite tones, definite beats, which are there. So, there is a good relationship between the mathematics and music. But music came very independently. It is because of the Gwalior. The Gwalior, the culture is that typically every child in the evening goes to a music school. So, when I was doing my engineering, I decided that in the evening I'll go to the music college also. You're a bachelor of? I have a bachelor of music. Music as well. Which instrument did you like the most at that time? I was always fascinated by sitar and that's what I play. So, my education is in sitar. Though I always thought Sarod is more having a deep sound, which is a lot more soothing. But sitar was more interesting. You still play? I still play. At home? Yes, I do. I do. And you also organize concerts? No, I don't do the concert because for organizing concerts require different practice and I don't find that much time. So, it is more like Svantas Sukhai. So, you play for yourself, but I play in the morning for about half an hour and it is good. The rest of the day, then you feel fresh and, you know, very nice. So, that is. It's a fascinating combination of music and science. We'll take a break at the moment. Don't go anywhere. We'll come back soon. Welcome back. Professor Shibgankar, we were talking about the music interest in music and when you are doing your engineering, then you are also pursuing your music. But I don't want to pursue this music part of it. I want you to tell the story of how did you land up doing electronics instead of mechanical engineering which you were interested in since your childhood? Actually, that is very interesting. When I went to engineering, at that time, the engineering program used to be a five-year program. And the branch was allotted after second year. I had a very good friend and we had a competition, very healthy competition among each other. But we both wanted to be on the top of your class. We used to have very close interaction on academic discussions also. We used to share notes, we used to share books. So, there was no rivalry as such, but it was a good competition. It was a competition, but a very healthy one. Very healthy competition. So, we will share even the notes, I make good notes, I'll give it to him. But still, we thought that we should really be on the top. When the allotment time came, my friend said that he will go to electrical engineering and I wanted to go to mechanical. So, I thought that suits very well. It so happened in the eleventh hour, he just changed his mind. And he said, well, he wanted to go for mechanical engineering. So, I had to decide because we thought if we are both in the same class, it is like encouraging each other to do it. So, I decided to go for electrical engineering. And that time, in Madan Institute of Technology and Science in Gwalior, they were starting the branch of electronics for the first branch. And electronics was coming up that time. Right. So, I thought maybe not electrical, but electronic engineering seems to be a good option now. There are not new opportunities. But during those days, it was a composite course that was introduced, at least in my engineering college, which was called Electrical and Electronics. You right from the beginning had electronics as a separate division. Well, it was the first batch. So, it was lot of courses were from electrical engineering. But the emphasis was on electronic, on electronics. So, the degree which they gave was in electronic engineering. Yes. So, how did it happen in fact? You wanted to do mechanical and you land up in doing something which was coming up, which generally people didn't know about. Electronics was a very, very new area. Didn't you have crave and went to mechanical engineering department and sneak into classes? I still used to like the courses which were offered in mechanical engineering. So, for example, heat engine course or the automobile course, those courses still fascinated me. But when I got involved into electrical engineering, I realized that there is a lot more deeper understanding required to understand electronics. Also, it is very rich in mathematics. So, if you look at electrical engineering, actually it is a combination of physics and mathematics. And since that was my original liking, I thought this branch really suits me because it really gives me both the electrical engineering and mathematics. When you completed your engineering from Gaulia, the BSC engineering or VTEC, then you wanted to join a job. Yes. How did you land up doing MTEC? Okay. So, it so happened that year, our results were delayed. Normally, universities, the results get delayed. So, by the time our results came, most of the job opportunities were over. The advertisements were not there. So, we registered with the training and placement office, waiting for the job and so on. And that time, somebody said, why don't you do post-graduation from IIT? Believe me, but by then, I did not know what IIT was. Nobody knew. So, we had seen three, four friends. And there were five IITs. That time, there were five IITs. And even if I had known, probably, I would not have gone for an undergraduate graduation for my family background and financial reasons. Post-graduation. Post-graduation. Right. So, since the results were delayed and the time was there and the jobs were not available, we thought, let us try for the post-graduation. So, nearest IIT was IIT Kanpur. And four of our friends, one from Mechanical and two more from Electrical and Electronics batch, we said, let us study together and let us prepare for this entrance examination. That time, there was not a national examination. Right. Individual IITs did their own examination. So, we went to IIT Kanpur for interview. Fantastic interview. I still remember that interview. It was such an in-depth interview I never faced in my life after that. And very informal. Very informal. Very informal. But very in-depth. Yes. So, they first asked me to write just one equation on the board. And after that, they just went on probing on the same equation for almost 30-40 minutes. So, by the time I came out, I was really saturated but satisfied that, yes, somebody really probed me to understand what is the depth of the equation. And then we were selected. All four were selected, actually, in IIT Kanpur. The whole batch. Yeah, the all four who went there. The whole gang of friends. The whole gang we prepared together. We always selected. Three were selected. So, three were electrical. One was in mechanical engineering. If I say how fortunate for IIT Delhi, otherwise IIT Delhi would have lost one of the most dynamic directors if you had joined a job at that time and didn't do your MTech. But these chance happenings in life mold your future. That's correct. Now, when you started doing your research, optics was your area or it was the communication in general? So, actually. Or antenna. So, in undergraduate program, one subject which I was really fascinated by was the electromagnetics. So, that is the core subject, electromagnetics. So, when I went to IIT Kanpur, they used to have a specialization in electromagnetics. So, I was selected for that and which I was very happy about. But then, electromagnetics, if you see application of electromagnetics, you see in various area like antennas is one, fiber optics is another one. At least electromagnetics changed the entire scientific world. Today, everywhere you see electromagnetics only. So, that time my MTech thesis was on optical fibers. The optical fibers were just coming up. So, my guide that time who came from U.S. to IIT Kanpur, he offered a project on optical fiber communication analysis of that. So, I was interested in that. So, I joined him and I started working on optical fibers. So, that is how I got into the optics. My first project was actually on optical fibers. And then from there, you did not want to go to southern part of India. Your guide said, no, no, no, please go. This is a big antenna which is coming up and you can contribute there. That is correct. Were you satisfied and happy when you went there and after initial resistance? Well, once I went there, the things were extremely impressive. So, as I said that I never wanted to go to Bangalore. I was looking for a job after MTech. And I was even interviewed for HAL, BEL, part of the electronics and in various agencies. The public sector jobs basically. And one or two places they had offered me also that I can join as an electronic engineer. You are not interested in private companies? I was not interested in private companies. I did not try for that. And then, but then I thought if I really want to do more, something better. One of my professors said why don't you join the PhD program? Because these jobs are not very fascinating. They look like maintenance, engineers kind of job. So, I joined the PhD program in IIT Kanpur. Did there for about four, five months, six months. And then this opportunity came. That in Raman Research Institute in the Indian East and West of Africa, they were building a very large... Did you know about Raman Research Institute? Not really. That it's one of the best institutes in the country. I knew that Sir Sivir Raman had formed an institute. So, just because of that. But otherwise, what activities they do, I was not really aware of. You were not. I was not aware of. We'll come back to that. I have to take a break. The discussion continues. He'll come back soon. Welcome back. Dr. Shiv Gaonkar, in fact, Professor Shiv Gaonkar, when you went to do this research and also construct one of the most advanced antenna at Raman Research Institute, it was a cultural shift from northern part of India to southern part of India. But when you went to IIT Bombay and then abroad, did you feel the same kind of hesitation which you felt initially while shifting from Kanpur to Bangalore? Actually, when I went to U.S., I did have hesitation because I had never been beyond the shores of India. When I went to Bangalore, some hesitation was there, but still the feeling was I am in my country. So, the hesitation was not that much. But when I went to U.S., certainly there was hesitation because I did not know. But also excitement of doing something great and much better. Yes, of course, but I did not have any feel how the U.S. functions. Only the professor who came from the U.S. and he was looking for somebody who can do some work for him, I decided to go with him. And so, I went as a fellow faculty research fellow with him. But once I went to U.S., I realized that the efficiency of your work in U.S. it gets multiplied by many fold. The same time which you were spending in India, if it's the same time you spend in U.S. system, your productivity is much higher. It's an amplifier. It's an amplifier. It's an amplifier. If you work eight hours a day in U.S., your productivity is extremely high. And that's what I could really do. So, the professor, he was extremely happy. I was publishing in the top most journals in astronomy and astrophysics. And actually, I would have continued there also because he wanted me to continue there for doing research. So, why did you come back? No, I always had in my mind that I should go back. I should work in my big... Big ideals serve the country, serve your nation, serve your people. That's absolutely. Because of the family? Family also, family also. That since I came from that background, I certainly had debts for my family. I should come back and really serve them. But more than that, I always thought that whatever you do, if you do in your own country, even if you don't achieve that much, the satisfaction is much more. Is it because of this love for the country and serve at least the students that you initiated that program of lectures, the best lectures that could be uploaded on television and Internet? Yes, actually that came from the origin that when I used to interact with these colleges, I always found that the students are extremely bright there. After 12th, when they get into engineering, that percentage is very, very high. And if you talk to the children, they are very, very motivated. But the problem is they don't get really proper exposure, proper training because there is a huge shortage of quality faculty in all these institutions. Who can give good lectures? Who can give good lectures? So, material is good. But if you don't expose the material to the high quality content, the students will not be able to really perform later on well. That was the motivation. And that time, actually this idea came out. And you also knew that a good teacher can also shape a good student. Absolutely. That is from my own experience, I can tell you. My shaping is just because I got some good teachers in my life. And therefore, you wanted this program to succeed. This program to succeed. So, the idea was to get the best possible person in that field and let that person teach so that the people get really right exposure of the subject. One interesting thing is that once expert teaches a course, it looks very interesting. It looks very simple. Children get so motivated, they get excited about the subject. And that's what is required actually at that level. It was MHRD's project. Yes. How much time did you take to initiate the project? Actually, initially it took almost two years from the concept to the final approval of the project. But the project started in 2002. And it was a very coordinated project. All IITs together made a distributed system. So, we used to coordinate in each IIT. You brought all of them on board. We got all of them on board. And the best of the faculty on board. That's correct. So, the chief coordinator for this was director of IIT Madras, Professor Anand. He was the coordinating. But then each IIT used to have one coordinator. And I was from IIT Bombay. And then we used to have faculty. So, we used to internally distribute the courses. Now, every university in the world has adopted that medium of instruction. That they record the best of the interview lectures from the teachers. And also upload it for the benefit of the students. At that time it was a novel idea. How did it come to your mind? To what I said, the shortage of faculty was something which was bothering. And this new medium was coming? The medium was coming, which was very powerful. Which had a multiplicative effect. It could reach to a large number of people. So, we started exactly the same time when IIT started. What they call is the open courseware. But IIT's objective was very different. IIT's objective was that these are the courses we teach in IIT. They are available if you want to use it or use it and so on. Our mandate was very different. Our mandate was really driven by our social need. That we have institutions. And the entire national need. And the entire national need. So, our mandate was very different. To really create a content so that at least the bright children are not deprived of good quality teaching. That was the motivation. You took two years to incubate this idea, work hard on it and then got approval from MHRD. Have you been always that strong? Because people call you very strong person with conviction, with very certain ideas you don't bow down before the authority. Well, I should not take credit only myself. Because a group of people who really meant that we should do this. You know, they were dedicated towards this cause. And we were determined that we are going to get it. And we also knew that in government it takes time to get approvals and so on. But we were working. And as soon as the approvals came, people really started working on that. And finally, we delivered. I would like to ask you a question which I have not asked most people. You have done basic sciences. You have excelled in that. Then translational research. And then also the technology part of it. What do you think should be the focus of the nation? Is it basic sciences? Is it translational research? Or is it the use of basic sciences? Actually, I would say all. Because the foundation of any translational research or any research is the science. So, you should have first a solid foundation. Off-lit, we are seeing that people are undermining the importance. A lot of people will argue, let others do the basic sciences. We will do translational research and translator. Unless you understand what are the fundamentals, the basic principles, how nature works, you will not be able to find good solutions for it. So, the science is certainly a foundation. You do not have to do the science, the research and translation in the same proportion. But you should really get a good feel for all this. Secondly, is the research. Because research really exposes to the real problems. And then you can really work on that. It keeps your mind always alert. Translation is a societal need. Whatever science we are doing, ultimately for whom? It should do for the betterment of the human beings. So, if the society is not affected by that, the engineering primary job is to convert scientific principles for the betterment of the human life. And development of the society and nation and people and humanity. But without starting from the basic sciences, you cannot reach this pinnacle. You will not be able to achieve that height which you wanted. What has been the moment of Eureka in your life? When did you say, yes, I have done it. I wanted to and I have done it. Actually, many small, small things. I would not say they are very large one. But when this telescope which was ready in Raman Institute, that was certainly one of the very satisfying moment. When it worked and performed well. It worked, it performed and we got very satisfied. But that was one of the largest telescopes in the world at that time at that frequency. There was no other instrument like that. You have published a huge number of papers. Which one would you say that this was Eureka paper? The research which I did when I was in University of Maryland, College Park, this was the observation of sun. And there were certain theories which were there, but there were no good experimental results which were available. So when I observed from the largest telescope in the world in U.S., what is called very large array, those results and the theory which were there, when I could really demonstrate that, yes, these are the experimental realities, we really support this theory, that was extremely satisfying. Great, you have, when you look back at your life span, you are happy and satisfied that you had great moments of Eureka and your life. I did, I have. Would you like to sign off by giving a message to the younger generation? Few things I will give to younger generation. First is whatever you get to do, do with happiness. Don't do as a burden. Many times you may, you are asked to do something which you may not be liking, but you have to do them, do with happiness. You will always get good result out of that. Second thing I will tell to people is, take the life the way it comes. Don't define, don't define too much, because if you define too much and if you don't get it, it only creates frustration. Life is very complex, the way it comes, whatever options are available at that point of time, that moment, choose the best option possible and move on. Give your full to that and you will find another path after some time. Thirdly, don't go by herd mentality. Whatever you like, your passion, follow that passion. If you do that, not only you will achieve the excellence and the heights, but you will be satisfied, you will be happy. And ultimately that's what matters. You should be happy in life. Choose your path and move on confidently and happily. Absolutely. That is the message we take back home. Thank you for watching Yoreka. May I on your behalf promise our viewers, if they have any questions, queries or comments to make, you will be happy to answer. Absolutely, I will be delighted. Write to us at yoreka.rstv.gmail.com. If you have any comment, query. Or any thing to ask, Professor Shiv Gaonkar will be happy to answer. Absolutely, I will be delighted. Thank you very much for this very, so much of time. Thank you very much. It was so nice talking to you. It was great that we could have you on RSTV. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. That's all for now.