 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Jim Clark who's an author educator performer historian 57 year veteran of the drums Jim welcome to the show Thank you very much part. Yeah, this is this is a fun one. And we're gonna we're gonna do something kind of practical today and talk about Applying rudimental drumming which I think is very I don't want to say proper but it can be very Educational it can be very different than like your standard day-to-day gigging, you know rock jazz blues, whatever drumming So I'm excited to talk about that but before we kick this off I do want to give a big thank you to our friend Kyle Krasuski who Really did a great job of sticking on me and you and getting us connected and Really believed in this episode clearly because we you know, he he was poking both of us to make sure this happened So big thank you to Kyle. I thank you Kyle too. Thank you Kyle. Yeah, so All right back to the topic though. So Jim I think this is such a neat topic. Let's jump in and really talk about how drummers Can use this formal rudimental drumming in everyday life Maybe explain this concept and then talk about it Well it's a It's an easy concept for me to talk about in that that's been my approach to drumming my introduction to drumming was through essentially through rudimental practice But it's also a little difficult because I It's so normal to me that it's hard for me to imagine not doing it I'll I give you a little idea When I started to play in the fall of 1963 took lessons in the school music program and as soon as we Were underway at all We got the so-called the buddy rich book that Henry Adler wrote famous was a very famous book and We learned to play rudiments out of the buddy rich book so In doing that You learned that sticking Matters different combinations of sticking matter and awkward ones matter to everything that you start on the right hand You start on the left hand you learn to play roughs and double strokes and flame rudiments and in different combinations and so to me that was what you do when you're learning about drumming You learn to do these kinds of pretty complicated hand motions And we learned reading at the same time and that book if if your listeners are familiar with it has a very Very fine very basic elementary learning how to read quarter notes then eighth notes then eighth rests and then dotted quarter notes And so forth and for people just getting started. That's a very very good Source and for learning rudiments also. There are so many variations on the rudiments that it was a useful thing to do and after a year or so they The school music teacher was one of the people who was by the way a percussion major. So he's a he was a very good drummer He was essentially a drum set player. He was very well-schooled and a very good player He had a little organ trio that he played with for decades and decades and Then he and some other people in the town started the Fife and Drum Corps So I started to play in the Fife and Drum Corps and I've been doing that ever since so some of the things that are useful about Learning the rudiments are that it's it's a big part of getting a kind of stick control in interesting ways Some of the things that have come up that I see floating around are that a lot of drummers Most drummers who are not going to be in a drum corps or do that kind of thing are going to do rudimental drumming today I believe as a as a way to Refind their skills a little bit And that's a really good way to do it and one of the sad things that I see by my standards in in my world Where I've been a drum corps drummer all my life and fight for drum course not drum and bugle course But in the more traditional Fife and Drum world, I've met some really Excellent drum set players and they say oh, yeah, I know the rudiments and they have either the PIS sheets or the old National Association of rudimental drummer sheets and every once in a while They just take out these things and play just the rudiments are I'll play double paradiddles for five minutes or something like that And that's so sad because that's not a lot of fun after the first few years of doing it You know, so a lot of people look at rudimental drumming as something that It's it's like learning to conjugate verbs in a foreign language or something. It's you're not using the language It's just a lot of work Yeah, and there's there is a certain amount of work involved in it of course But if you love the drums and you want to sound better you want to do things that will help you improve but the being a real rudimental drummer as we think of it in my world It just learning those rudiments is that's just a beginning part But it's learning to use them in phrases in different dynamics at different tempos in different combinations That's where it gets to be fun And I've always found it to be a lot of fun. That's why I still do it. This will come as a shock I know but you you don't get rich being a drummer in a fight for drum core I know most people would imagine that you would but shockingly, you know I don't know why but the big paychecks just aren't coming But I've been doing it for more than half a century because it's so much fun When you're doing real rudimental Drumming this style of music That we tend to think of drummers tend to think of us as rudimental drumming You're playing phrases of different lengths In combining the rudiments in in different ways even in the 19th century stuff It can be a lot of fun if you play it nice and clean And then there's a whole world of different combinations of that people have written things Uh since we'll talk about I have a new book that's just come out a couple of weeks ago of pieces For field drums that are all based on rudimental things myself And there's a variety of resources that way. So What I see people play just play rudiments and say I'm going to play some double drags now I think boy, that's you're doing the hard work part But you're not getting the fun part because I think it's turning it into music and playing longer phrases of it that make it fun Let me ask you a question while we're there and then move forward but because I think that's that's a key That's a really really interesting point of like Um It's almost like you know a kid has to learn to crawl before he can walk And then he can has to walk before he can run And that's the running is the fun part right but like so how do you know when you're learning This let's say if you've never done rudimental drumming Maybe you're you're a drummer a drum set drummer and you want to get into rudimental drumming How do you know when you're confident enough to switch it over and start to have fun with it? Will it just be like I'm playing this very easily. I can I remember the rudiments. I know them now I can start to have fun with it or should they be having Um, I mean I feel like you can't really like you know a look at it and play it For one measure or whatever and then boom now. I'm going to start doing it around the drum set and having fun You do need a little bit of like Hard work time right is that fair to say? Oh, absolutely well, what often happens when I'm teaching beginners or As you say people who are drum set players who are just starting to be interested in doing rudiments traditionally people do things like Well, I'll tell you here's an example And I teach people to play flams. I think everybody knows how to play flams most likely he was listening to this but If you don't have a teacher you have to be quite self critical um And decide what what kind of flam you like because there is an element of precision involved in it So how how high do you want those grace notes to be? How much of an accent do you want to be on that principal note? How close do you want the grace note to be to the principal note? You want to be consistent with those things and then you might do it different ways You know, there's the famous tony williams flams that are, you know, loud and open and But up but up but up kind of thing which he used to you know such terrific effect And then there are kind of Joe Morello flams very soft and delicate and very precise and much tighter So there are lots of different ways to play Flams for instance, but what I tell the students Is to once you get the basic motions down to do that and you have to learn that somehow I I'd show you that if we had a visual I tell the students play 20 flams a day All at once take you less than a minute but do that slowly play leave one or two seconds between each flam So you can really control the height of the sticks the volume The space between the two notes in each flam make it very comfortable and relaxed Just do 20 or 30 of those a day a minute worth of flams And do that for three or four weeks and you'll start to notice That they become more consistent or that one hand is always louder than the other or something like this And if you just take each rudiment Slowly And try to make it quite precise and relaxed. You'll know as they as they get better And that's That's a start. That's a way to start it's without being able to show you visually how to do it. It's it's more difficult No, that makes sense. I mean it's it's and that's also pretty attainable Which you know, maybe it's human nature, but sometimes like you think oh man, you know jim's telling me here to practice You know 20 flams a day that takes like a minute, but Actually doing it every day. It's sort of like, you know doing 10 push-ups for 20 or 30 or 100 push-ups a day it's like do it for a full week and And see if you're still doing it But you got you got to just get it in your mind that you have to do it, right? Yeah, I I tell well the way I do Things myself whenever I try to learn a new skill You have to decide that it matters. It's like losing weight or as you say doing body buildings or something like that You have to say do I really want to do this and if I want to do it if I want to play better flams What here's a line of reasoning that was helpful to me. I don't know if it'll be helpful to your listeners I hope so I say To be a good drummer. I ought to be able to play consistent flams Look at all these good drummers They play consistent flams and and use them in different combinations and I can't do that yet What I like to be able to do that. Yes Okay, am I willing to spend one darn minute a day For a month to see if I can improve this skill And if you're not willing to do that then you're probably not very serious about learning how to play So, you know, it's not what I have encountered I've been a private teacher both piano and drums for decades now and something very common situation Um Is that people set up a very unrealistic goal for themselves in terms of improving I'm going to practice five hours a day and they've got a full-time job or they're You know, they're a high school student And they have to do homework and pass their courses and keep their parents from flowing throwing them out of the house And so forth and they say I'm going to practice three hours a day and they can't practice three hours a day So they give up all together, you know after a short period of time if you if you set goals that are Very attainable goals, but require some discipline then You then you stand a chance, but just start if you start as I say with just say 20 or 30 flams a day doesn't take very long And then you can build on that and do more and usually once people get started They do better and better out There's a very appropriate story about this when I was in high school I subscribed to downbeat magazine one of the first Uh articles I got was an interview with bb king And he was asked this was back in the early 1970s late 60s, you know And they said mr. King, you know, you're touring all the time. You don't even have a permanent residence You live on the tour bus. How do you ever practice in bb king said at that point He said I I get off the bus I go into the place I'm staying or go into the club. I'm playing tonight I get in the green room or whatever it is that I have to set up And I take loose seal his famous Gibson guitar I take loose seal out of her case and I make myself play scales for 10 minutes and some days I'm tired the agent's giving a hard time the club owner's threatening not to pay me and so forth I put the guitar back in the case and I wait for the show at this point. He was bb king He could play, you know, we're not worried about his ability to get through a gig, you know Yeah, sure But he said very often if I get the guitar in my hands and I make myself play for 10 minutes, then I get that. Well, maybe I'll just really do changes for this other song. Oh, here's an interesting solo Maybe I'll pick up something else and next thing, you know, he's been Really playing and working on stuff for quite a while and I have used that piece of advice in my own life ever since You're at work. You're at school. You have a relationship problem or whatever If you make yourself sit down and get started then a lot if you really love to play Most days you'll keep going and you have to you have to give yourself the permission to have a really bad day When you just can't concentrate and you just aren't going to practice very much and that has to be okay But the other side of it is you have to make yourself sit down and try And very often if you do that you'll do better than you think I think this idea of people setting up unrealistic goals for themselves is Important and for learning rudiments. It's important because at first it will seem to people to be very dry Until they start to see the the positive results of it. Yeah, I mean, I think that like There's almost like a it's like a In your mind in your body like a wall where you're like, I just I can't do that right now You're thinking of every excuse not to oh, yes I don't think anyone else out there has said god. I wish I didn't practice last night I regret practicing for 10 minutes so much last night. That was such a mistake I don't think people are saying that no you're you're 100 right. I say all the time. I've taught a lot of adult piano students adult beginner piano students or and It's it was shocking to me. I learned to play at least drums. I learned to play as a little kid I took a piano later and And you all the time you see these really successful Adults are successful in business or with beautiful families or whatever their main goal in life is And they would just love to play music and as just as you say, I've never heard a person say Oh, I'm so sorry. I've learned how to play an instrument and make good music What a waste of time I never hear people say that but you hear the opposite all the time If I'd only stuck with it, but only practiced a little more. Yes And so we just want to encourage people to to give that a try another Big thing for drum set players to think about rudiments And of course it depends on what kind of drumming you're doing And how much you're you're interested in in stretching out your your horizons of drum set playing But so many of the great drum set players are really knowledgeable about rudiments and use rudimental ideas all the time So that if you want to play In those in those styles and you're not familiar with the rudiments you're really working behind all the time It's like not really understanding a language and trying to speak just imitating other people's voices, but not Not understanding the grammar at all A guy I can't remember the name of the fellow somebody wrote a very nice new book on A kind of analysis of philly joe jones style And there's all these wonderful exercises in it and in Little excerpts from work that mr. Jones did And you know he was You know such a Proponent of playing the rudiments all the time that if you try Playing stuff in that style and you don't know the rudiments. It's it's quite difficult. Of course ellen dawson In boston had his famous rudimental ritual and learning all of the rudiments and putting them together and having that kind of dexterity And you see it in his playing and of course his famous student tony williams Really was a rudimental drummer. There was nothing rudimental that tony couldn't do Billy cobbam who weighed such a sensation when he was young my my friend and A guy I drummed with my father's generation kenny limley actually taught a drum and bugle chord in new york Where billy cobbam was one of the drummers? um And that's so interesting for me and that I could hear things and billy cobbam's playing there very much like that guys But he was the most musical rudimental drummer in the world, you know, it seemed to be his name was ken limley He's an incredibly musical player and a lot of those beautiful little things that billy cobbam I like the quiet things that you know cobbam did And does and they're so sensitive requires such such really fine control But a very relaxed and musical control and that is what rudimental drumming From my point of view gives you it's not playing double strokes at the speed of light or I don't care about that so much But it gives you that real fine control over your software dynamics that is really really charming all right, so perfect like transition into my the question that I keep kind of having in the back of my mind is like Taking it from Doing your 10 minute and then you know expand from there your your practice of rudimental drumming every day How do you Recommend that people let's say they've played for a while, you know, you know, you're not learning the basic beats here How do you translate it from doing rudiments on a pad? To you're sitting there. Let's say playing with a band or you're like a like a You know a jazz or rock band like, you know, you're on the drum set What are some practical ways that you can start to insert this? Is it just maybe sort of like throwing in a rudiment on a fill or just kind of Getting out of something with using sticking that you've learned in rudiments or how do you recommend applying this? well The first rule as a I'm sure you'll agree is that you don't try it when you're on a gig playing with people You do it at home when you're practicing and no one's listening. That's how you get started doing. I'm just teasing of course I know that's what you mean. There are some really basic Patterns for people who are just getting started with this For instance If you think about Paradidals or just the paradiddle sticking as a real rudimental drummer I got all fussy about what a paradiddle is but we're not worried about that here So you've got a paradiddle sticking Which is just combinations of singles and doubles right left right right left right left left Well, clearly that double stroke gives you time. There are two issues One is good news that double stroke gives you time to move your free hand to another playing surface or other drummer symbol Right, so let's say you've got four drums lined up from left to right Well, if they're from left to right, let's say this If you Want to go straight down those drums you play four beats or eight beats on each drum Well, you can use hand to hand sticking it works great right left right left next drum right left right left Your right hand is right there Let's say you want to alternate you want to go if the drums are in in order one two three four Let's say you want to go for one to three Then back up to two and then down to four to vary that pattern If you're always leading with your right hand when you have to go in the opposite direction You have to go back up. That's a little awkward. You have to get your left hand out of the way It's possible people do it, but the paradiddle sticking makes it easier to do So if you have two lefts, the next drum is to your right You can move down there if you have a right hand paradiddle the next Paradiddle starts with your left if you're going to move back up You can go that way. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's like it's it's buying you some time Yes, that's right And that's a big thing when you're playing the drum set and you're trying to move around You see the really really good drummers and they always look like they've got all the time in the world to get to that next playing surface and and they don't because you try doing it and you say joss How do I get there in time? I'm always late or I'm stiff I'm pushing really hard to get there. Well, when you have When you use double strokes or triple strokes to give you that time to move your free hand and also then things happen We just get used to the idea of combining the stickings in different ways as you get better at rudiments It's not it's a big mistake. I think just to play straight rudiments once you get past that Initial period of knowing them. There are all sorts of other stickings that will Pop into your mind that you can try and a lot of times you see people use one hand say stays on the snare drum and the other hand is playing the accents and moving around tom toms, let's say and You have combinations of singles and doubles and triples on that Hand on the snare drum or the other hand and that's that gives you a kind of two voice idea And people who spend a lot of time just playing singles all the time or or double strokes all the time It's hard for them to mix that up. So one thing to do is make up an accent pattern This is related to rudimental drumming, but not strictly just just basic rudiments Make up an accent pattern that you like whatever it may be You know, you're in five four and you think dumb dumb good. Don't get dumb bum But I don't get dumb you do that with one hand and move it around the drums And you fill in the gaps with your other hand playing softly on the snare drum or a closed high hat or something And that's a way of combining singles and doubles and so forth Um, and that's based on that rudimental idea of varying the sticking all the time Yeah, that makes sense now you said before about hearing drummers and you hear these popular drummers playing these rudiments or seeing them And they kind of like like Billy Cobham and stuff now It makes me think what's your thoughts on being able to like listen to some of the legends of drumming and being able to tell If they're a rudimental drummer like let's say not even watching a video But hearing them can you tell when someone is using This style to move around the drum set just by listening to the actual music or is the goal to not be able to tell Just because you know, you don't want it to sound too Uh chopped up or rudimental as they're playing in a in a rock or jazz situation But can you yourself as kind of a you know, uh, really you've done this a lot. Um, can you tell when someone's using these techniques? Yes, it's I think so um, and What i'm interested in even though As I said, I played more than half a century every year in fight for drum cores and I have taught for all those years People to play in fight for drum core. So I really love strict old-fashioned rudimental drumming, but when you're doing it on the drum set, it's the I think a goal is not to sound like a drum core drummer sticking stuff in there. Uh, but to but to do it fluently. I think the Probably the classic example of of that um Well, there are different guys do it in different ways I would say it better than the classic thing that most obviously is is the the work of steve gad Who had very good rudimental background and in lots of there are loads of uh video presentations of of him Both commercial videos that he did and just Videos that people took at different workshops. He's done, uh, and he'll explain he does Especially famous things on ratamacuse and six-stroke rolls very common Traditional rudiments and he explains how he uses those to get around the drum set I think we can safely say he's had a pretty successful career Nobody's complaining. He's a great A great great musician who who expresses that on the drums phenomenal musician Um, and he does a lot of that a lot of those beats that he's most famous for To me clearly come out of that background. You have the the open double strokes. You have this terrific ease of moving between Flams and ruffs and different combinations of those to make up the more intricate rudiments and gad developed a way to move those Around really to separate the hands a lot of what he does that famous left hand on the hi hat a lot of times He's playing Paradiddle combinations Ratamacuse combinations with one hand On a louder surface and one hand on the softer one and you hear how the rudiment breaks itself up A lot of us were doing that back when I mean mr. Gad is just a Few years very few years older than I am and a lot of us were doing that Unfortunately, nobody else made it sound as good as Steve Gad did because he was the guy who really I mean It's really great remarkable the things that he's accomplished doing that. So there's that kind of guy who doesn't really obviously um And then there are people like Steve Smith who Doesn't sound to me like a drum core drummer at all, but he's he has it. He's just a different kind of motion all together Different kind of of hand technique Yeah But he's clearly somebody who's studied all the rudiments and used those There are some videos of him playing from the famous books by charlie wilcox and that were published many decades ago Any somebody who's really used the rudiments? To create his own kind of style and to play the different You know the many different styles that steve smith has played in so successfully And he really has that control. He can play soft. He can play loud He can play all the different kinds of role and flame combinations Anyway, he wants to And combine them in ways so that you know, you can go along for five minutes and be unaware of Any kind of rudimental thing just a very highly skilled drummer Playing what that music calls for and then he'll launch into something else He's a geez. He's got plays great paradiddles, doesn't he? Yeah. So, you know, that's nice to hear Elvin jones was interesting to me because people don't think of him as a rudimental drummer But of course he had that experience playing in the service and in In in school bands and so forth. So every once in a while I mean, I know elvin's been gone for a long time now very sadly But those of us who admire elvin's work so much He'll play sometimes this this little straight rudimental thing with these these really pianissimo open flams and Little open roles that he'll use that sometimes for an accompaniment pattern And you can see that he's thinking in in terms of those on occasion But he was again, he was such a creative giant that he He wasn't reliant on it. So I think the goal is not to be dependent on the rudiments But to use this as a jumping off board just more resources for you and it's um Well, first, okay, so two things I want to say that like You mentioned earlier joking that, you know, you're not going to become a super rich millionaire guy doing the rudimental drumming stuff But it's almost like those guys are pretty clear examples of okay You've taken this background and then you can use it in a commercially successful Application where then you are going to become I think steve gad and steve smith And and elvin, you know Sure back then they did do commercially pretty darn well. Yes, they did This episode is brought to you by dream symbols dream symbols is launching the tasting tour 2021 There's going to be tons of cool symbols members of the dream team on site and the recycling program will be in effect All day at these various awesome music stores around the country november 6th They'll be at rup strums in denver colorado. So go out and check it out if dream will be in your town So my other question which is kind of related you were talking about You know will coxswain and and studying these greats and and having these books from so long ago um, do you find that rudimental books in general Are pretty timeless because like there's there's a lot of books out there in another genre is musical and and not Where you look at it and you go my god, this is dated rudiments don't seem to be Like you can read one from 200 years ago and it's still got something you can learn from Do you think they are a timeless form of uh studying in in those those books? We all think something is timeless until someday people turn around and say I don't care about that anymore um, but I think that I'm very interested in classical music general term Bach Mozart Beethoven Chopin that kind of music Um And one of the things you learn when you study classical music is the The instrumental techniques develop over a long period of time and become more and more refined But there are fundamentals that just don't change very much generation to generation. Yeah, uh, and that's That was quite interesting to me because I love using my hands I love touching an instrument and trying to do things with it Whether it's the piano or the drums And what the rudiments represent for a modern drum set player Are those some of those basic skills that are just useful to have if you're going to be drumming with drumsticks and And trying to make music that way there are other techniques too Some people are very anti rudiments because they thought you spend all your time you only have these in the old days They said you only have these 26 patterns and then the PAS as their 40 patterns and it turns out if you go before At the time of the civil war, there were a lot more than 26 rudiments that would be taught as rudiments You know this and the whole idea of making it so regimented and strict That's that's part of a competition scene where you have to be able to judge people So you make very narrow rules and everybody has to do this so you can compare But that world was much more open But people developed over a period of time over a period of Centuries in rudimental drumming so far as we know probably started Or at least was beginning to be codified something like that in the 1300s in switzerland So that's that's centuries of people developing the idea of playing a double stroke role Uh is quite an interesting idea not every culture has that that kind of Technique and the idea of these graces flams and ruffs That's a that's something that developed over a long period of time generation upon generation. So when drummers study rudimental ideas, I think it's very bad if you say These are the only ways to play I must always play flams this way flame acues always have this one accent I must always do this I must hit every accent as hard as I possibly can otherwise It's not rudimental making it that's that's just not good But the fundamental ideas that sometimes we we play a single stroke and then we could ornament it with a grace note or with two grace notes that we can play single stroke roles and double stroke roles and Buzz roles or concert roles, however you whatever term you like for those to have control over those things those are basic skills of being a good drummer in In our society, I think people play drums that still recognize those things not all styles use those things equally But those are all worthwhile skills to have so studying the rudimental things Those are the fundamentals. It's like violinists Always practice these very long bows. You hear a great violinist They'll always spend time every day playing all the way from one end of the bow to the other very slowly It's to see how how slowly can they move that bow and still get a good sound How much can they play just at the tip and get a good sound? They'll do that the great violinists would do that all the time It's a fundamental skill and for a drummer being able to play A really even double stroke role at different speeds and volumes. That's a fundamental skill So in so far as the old rudimental things Teach and use those skills They're pretty permanent as long as that kind of instrument is around Yeah, it totally does and I kind of thought of that earlier when you were talking about that buddy rich book Where I'm sure like, you know, if people pick up a copy of that, then there's probably Tons of things you can still, you know, I don't say still learn. It's like that. It's like it's not a Let's pick up this old kind of thing and have fun looking at it and see what's changed. It's like no, that seems very Applicable to today. It's not like, you know I think buddy had it figured out to where what he's teaching is still Very much applies to Any drummer. Yeah, the the great thing about that book. Well, there are a couple I think But one of the great things is that there's no pretense that there are only 26 rudiments or that there's one way to play a rudiment They'll show you the same rudiment and change the accents of a similar rudiment but change the sticking And it when I was a little kid It really helped open up my mind when I started to write when I was 12 or 13 And started to write my own little drum pieces It didn't occur to me that I had to be restricted to only these couple of dozen Patterns. So one of the great things the buddy rich book does is to give you A wider variety a wider idea of what rudiments and rudimental drumming might be it doesn't want to restrict you It gives you enough suggestions so that the obvious thing is to say Oh, if you could do if you could do it this way in that way Maybe I'll make up a third way that you could do the same kind of thing and that's That's the value of the rudimental thing. I I think that would be a very good book for anybody to get Who's interested in developing their hand technique if you if you approach it seriously Yeah, totally. Um, now as you're practicing these as people are working through them In your experience of of of teaching, um What are some things that you may be see that people who have been You know self Teaching working on it on their own. What are some things that you see that you need to Correct like so maybe some red flags or some things that people are doing where when you're when you're teaching yourself when you're doing anything by yourself I personally have a tendency to be like, yeah, I think that was it when in reality with a teacher They'd be like no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not doing it right. You're not lifting enough What are some things that you think people should kind of self police a little bit more That you see when you you get them after their Self, you know learning which you should learn by yourself. Let's obviously that's key Sure practice at home. But what are some things people should watch out for? Well, this is this is one of my this is why teaching is still so fascinating to me now because I I watched someone play And then I get all these ideas and it's Diagnosing that and coming up with ideas for is Is fascinating to me. I really love teaching Of but now I don't have anybody in front of me playing so I have to try to think of that one common thing that Drum set players will do They'll they'll come into their first or second lesson and say, you know darn it. My left hand doesn't work I think there's something wrong with it And then you have them play and they're playing a ride beat where they're playing Eighths or sixteenths out of fast tempo all the time with the right hand and the left hand is playing back beats And he said well If you hit the drum Eight times with your right hand for every one time you hit it with your left hand It's likely your right hand is going to have more dexterity And then that'll be a hundred dollars, please because I'm such a genius don't figure that out for you But so that's something that people tend to go to their strengths A lot when you're learning a very general idea is that Things that come easily to you and that you're building it's good to have your strengths and you have to keep your strengths up But it It's a very good attitude if you can say, you know, I can do this But my left hand is nowhere, but I don't want to work on it work on it You know or I can't read it all and I could get this gig But I really ought to be able to work my way through a book of charts, but I can't work on your reading That's that's one thing that people will sometimes just ignore Their their weaknesses, but in terms of just strict drumming Uh, a lot of times people working on a drum pad I would I'd go back and forth with this over the years because I grew up playing on a drum pad so much And then I tried to get away from that for drum set players It's because I don't want people to be too restricted and You know just be drum pad artists and not be able to put things on the drums But I I do believe that for people who play the drum set a lot having A rubber drum pad or a tunable pad. That's not that reproduces the feel of a drum It's pretty good. You know, so a lot of the modern pads are they're for a drum and bugle course stuff And they're so tight. There's no dynamic range and they bounce more than Your tomtoms would bounce. It's not going to do you much good um But playing on a pad Uh and making your hands even and you can really concentrate on the clarity of your rhythms That's a that's a big part of it and not trying to play fast all the time So one thing is playing on a pad can be useful Doing things where you use both of your hands and make both your hands work equally You'll never be sorry. You you do that and working on the clarity of things people will often work on playing very fast But if you're not playing very clearly playing fast, it's pretty useless So people will will Cheat a little bit. They'll use too much bounces and so forth and they'll get through things fast But it's not very clear if you can't play it. Well slowly Then you're not really this is a really old-fashioned teacher thing to say so true But if you can't play it really well slowly under complete control Then when all of a sudden you're in a club and there's 200 people listening and You know the guy who booked you is looking at you out of the corner of his eye Wondering if he did the right thing and now you have to play that same beat really fast and you haven't really mastered it slow Not a good position to be in not that I've ever been there. Oh heavens. No not me. Well other people other people may I've never made a mistake. Well other people I've heard that other people have and a big thing that people do often People play smaller and smaller in terms of their technique, you know I hear I hear now all the time people talk about the importance of their finger technique And sometimes they talk about the importance of their wrist technique And and then there's this strange molar thing that's gotten exaggerated out of I used to play with guys who learned from Gus molar And people will talk about that in this very exaggerated way It's a way to play very very fast accented and you know accident and bounce strokes with one hand and that but In terms of a technique that actually Where you play actually from your shoulder all the way down to your fingers and have everything be smoothly coordinated That's something that if you're working on your own It's very hard to do because you see it from the outside more easily You get concentrating and you start to tighten up and your shoulders will hunch a little bit and your upper arm is not involved Um, and you're concentrating you're being conscientious. You want to do a good job But it's it's very important to relax And let your whole arm be involved with the motion in every joint move make sure your wrist is working I do a lot with forearm rotation Motions which I can't show you now, but that's a really fundamental idea and I should get If you can get yourself relaxed and move bigger That's a very good thing to do. You see that in sports But if you're learning well kids are learning to hit a baseball with a baseball bat or my sport is tennis You're learning how to hit a decent tennis stroke You don't try to hit the ball very very hard And you don't try to move the racket or the bat very fast You have to make a big smooth motion And I think that the fundamental idea of a drumming technique to me is to make big smooth motions If you're trying to play very fast, you're trying to Over control things you go tinier and tinier and that's not useful. So make I say If you're working on your rudiments working on playing double strokes playing an open roll Make bigger motions than you think you have to bring the sticks up farther than you think you have to don't try to hit the drum Loudly, but try to make a big smooth motion And if you're making a big smooth motion You'll get more and more under control and then the speed will come and at the slightest little hint Of anything tightening up Don't don't push it beyond that. It's very important Just be smooth if you're very very smooth and a lot of things will follow profitably from that But once you tighten up it's the end of the game Well, and it seems like for someone who's been playing for 57 years that if you're going to have which you know All of us want to play for our entire lives You can damage your body by practicing the wrong way And if you're tightened up with anything like you said if you're doing sports or whatever you can hurt yourself In the long run. So everything you're saying kind of seems like it's also Just physically Better for you and I imagine breathing is important too because I remember as a kid when I was learning I had a teacher who would say, you know, you're not breathing and then that affects your time and just every you know Just tightening up and then playing and then Gasping for like it's just and I when I was working as a drum teacher in college and stuff at a little shop here in Cincinnati I would see that all the time where the kid it's like, you know Relax trying but then you have to Think to breathe First a little bit. Right. It's very it's very psychological. I think that you I remember watching On a good day I have many bad days many many many many bad days But on a good day, you know, you I would get an image in my mind I still do of the the great players Who I've watched play and And you would you get a sense of that relaxation and when they're really good They're all relaxed and moving. Well, I had the opportunity. I'm so old that Uh, I start many sentences that way in recent years I'm so old that I went to the new port jazz festival when I was in high school And I got to see joe jones do clinic and for those of your listeners who are more more rock drivers joe jones Was the most famously was the drummer with a great count bassie band in 1937-38 when they made their first Recordings. Yeah, and joe jones is a great legend. There's lots of things of him on on youtube that you can see now And I got to see joe jones Play and it was it changed my World to see somebody play with that much ease and that much elegance and that relaxation and and A confident kind of easy wasn't trying to you know, buddy rich You could see play we went to see buddy rich many times too around those years and phenomenally great player Player defines a lot of aspects of filming technique But he would be relaxed doing it but he'd make everybody in the audience nervous because it was so outrageous what he was doing But joe jones, he like he helped us relax too, you know, it was a different thing And joe jones was sort of buddy rich's favorite drummers But you'd see some of these watching billy cobbin play all right I saw billy cobbin play with marv Vishnu three times And and the most startling thing the whole thing was startling But he'd be moving around this giant drum set completely ambidextrous And he was having the best time of anybody in the room You know, it was just the easiest thing in the world for him to do that So if you when you see great players play that where you see how easy it is if you get it in your mind That i'm playing the drums. I love to play the drums. I'm going to make this sound good. I'm not in a hurry I'm going to make big smooth motions. That is very very helpful so It's good to want to play faster and better and all that kind of things we all work towards that I've spent thousands of hours trying to do that But you have to keep in perspective that if it's not relaxed and comfortable and you're not enjoying it Then then it's not really going to be good for the long run Yeah, I mean it's the um You know, you make it you practice to make it look easy and those guys like joe jones just smiling and just absolutely Unbelievable drummer and and he's a prime example of making it look easy. Same with billy cobbin So all right unrelated question to that just kind of jumping around here on my my list of questions so if Like so i'm a guy who has really, you know, I came up with rock drumming. I've played in a bunch of bands I just I did that was my my world now that i'm older I wish that I would have done more rudimental drumming growing up But are there avenues that people like me who um are You know lifelong drummers, but just didn't come up in that world where you can As an adult, I think it sounds so fun to to play with a group to play in like a marching Uh drum course situation But You know, I'm not affiliated with any school. I'm not affiliated with any Is there any avenue that people can go to like be a part of that? And I know city by city country by country. It's probably different But what would someone like me do to get involved with stuff like that? I don't think there's enough of that i'm i'm working on a couple of projects three different projects um to try to make that kind of that kind of opportunity available to people because here In connecticut in particular connecticut and massachusetts parts of massachusetts up around boston mostly and in parts of new york There is a tradition of these local local fife and drum bands and And That's a tradition i grew up in but that's that's all dwindling away at the same time people like you are saying what you just said Which is just music to my ears, you know people want to do this great, but Generally people have these very busy Overbooked lives and young people are pushed into whatever kinds of activities as they are called It's not you know, you're not becoming a musician. You have an activity Of like soccer and making music is the same thing. They're both just activities totally totally right on me, but anyway You know, whatever will look good on your college application the young people are doing So we're in big trouble keeping these groups alive at my group. For instance, just last night I had a rehearsal people are zooming in from 120 miles away People are driving 50 or 60 miles to get to our rehearsal and i'm writing You know new charts new drum parts and new fife parts for the people to play And we have this little community band and the people just love to play we play music together We don't win We don't compete and we don't have prizes to win But we play for audiences and we travel around and and mostly we get together and make music And it's it's very rewarding. So I think that's To me, that's a very worthwhile thing to do with music. So we have that I shouldn't get too far ahead, but we're we're doing A documentary film series on fives and drums in america that we hope will be part of it will be out next summer And we're trying to raise some interest that way There is an organization called the company of fifers and drummers, which has a website the company of Fifers and drummers that you can find and they have listed there the different fife and drum organizations around There's some in california. There's some in michigan and mostly in the northeast There are some european groups that belong to that organization So you might depending on where you live find a a group And and people of course can start their own groups and it's it's a hard thing to do right now I I think it's not so much I started my group That's this may be of some interest to one or two fanatics in your listening audience I was in between fife and drum course at a point I didn't want to compete anymore and I was teaching junior groups and I had some students who were Unaffiliated with groups and I had at my house in the room I'm standing in now 30 almost 35 years ago I called up half a dozen drummers I knew who were good drummers not the greatest drummers in the world with good drummers And I said you want to get together at my house every other sunday night We'll play some traditional rudimental drum parts and we'll see how it goes. It might be fun And these guys said yeah, let's do that 35 years later almost 35 years later That group is still alive and we've got fifers and drummers. We play in gettysburg. We played in switzerland We're invited to go to ireland. We it's a lot of fun You have lifelong friendships and I just said to a few drummers you want to get together and And we'll just play nobody's getting paid nobody's you know becoming famous nobody's winning awards But you'll love to drum so you get together and do some drumming together You know you're good at this and i'm good at that your teacher showed you this other thing and let's do that for a while And we just started that way just out of goodwill and an honest love of getting together and doing some drumming and Awesome and we're still going so I think that if you have any Listeners who think yeah, this might be fun to do call up some people and see if they want to get together and do a little Drumming and then some opportunities Can occur you don't know what you might end up with You know some kind of a variation on a mardi gras band or you know a brats band or god knows what But people who love to play music should get together and play music and drumming is music So if you want to get together and do drumming you could do a madrigal group if that was your thing With a voice like mine i'm better with drumming Well, I mean, but that's like the same thing is getting together with You know your friend who's a guitarist and a singer and then your other friend who's a bass player and then you know Boom, what do you know? You've just formed a band that in five years is now like one of the biggest bands in the world That's how it starts and it's the same thing with Um with with this and I just think it's what you said is so right about how with kids There's all these quote-unquote activities where I mean i'm there with uh, you know Two-year-old who's now in that point where it's like let's go to a little music class and we'll do this Where you want activities to fill things up, but sometimes as adults it's like there's not you need something to break up You know you go to work all day. It's hard to find um, it's hard to make new friends as an adult too and this is sometimes, um there's ways to Meet like-minded people who were drummers and and and sometimes um, it's hard to find those You know, it's like a bowling league or something like that. Yes, that's right It's cool. We don't we don't tend to look at music. It seems to me in our society. We don't do that when I was well When I was in my late 20s, let's say Uh, I got to play with one of the fellow. I told you who who had Billy Cobham in a drummer He didn't teach Billy Cobham If you have talent like Billy Cobham, nobody teaches you how to play they just Show you a few things and off you go. But I mean he this who who knew Billy and I'll tell you something about Billy Cobham Decades later they met in in switzerland. There was uh, my friend Kenny's fife and drum band was playing in switzerland And across that some they saw some guys they were practicing on this field and they saw across this field Some guys playing american football and they thought that's strange in switzerland. This is around 1975 or so in switzerland And this big black guy comes running over to this american fife and drum band. He says, hey, you guys from america They said, yeah, we're from america. We play a fife and drum band fife and drum core They said, and if you know Kenny Lumley, they said, yeah, he's right over there and he went up and said, oh mr Lumley, do you remember me? My name is Billy Cobham And for decades after as long as Kenny was alive, Billy Cobham would send him tickets whenever he toured around here And when he was playing in connecticut, um, Billy Cobham would send him tickets and Kenny and his wife would go and listen to Billy Cobham's band and my point is that Billy Cobham did that for Kenny Kenny For me, you know, I was I was I loved the way he played and he would call me up and we got together Every week with a small group of guys all these guys were my father's age. They all smoked. They all drank whiskey I didn't do either. I would stand and just drum, you know And I would play with these guys and I had these very very meaningful relationships with these guys my father's age Um who were drummers and we just got together and played it was never Kenny didn't want it to be formalized or anything have a name and winning award You just get together and make music together and that's something you can do I did that with those guys right up until they died and now with my group I've had friends I've had for 30 years. So I just I just want to encourage people Just because You know, it's you say well, it's only drummers. It's not a format that's going to make a lot of money That's no reason not to do it. Oh, no, if you make a lifelong friendship and you get to Pursuit drumming is that's a kind of art that we all love just to get together and do your drumming That's worthwhile doing it for me. It's one of the most important things to do. So yes, I just meant those are just examples of The good things that come just on a purely human level from getting together and making music. Yeah, and and just uh I've found that whenever So from working in recording studios for years now, there's always the question of be it with a podcast or a band or anything Um, all right, when do I start to make money or how do I make money at this? I think the key to making some money I think is to not worry about making money and just focus on What you're doing and that goes with drumming because I mean like again, you've gotten to go around the world And play in Switzerland. I don't think you can go into it going day one. All right, when am I going to be in? Switzerland you have to you have to create the product whatever it is first that is Really high quality which um I think you're doing with your drumming. I hope people like the podcast been doing it for a while where again you just focus on it and attention and money Whatever, I mean again, we're not getting rich doing any of this but that little bit it will come I think people can tell when something Takes a lot of effort and you put a lot of love into it and and so that's just kind of like to me the key is Don't worry about any of that and just have fun and whatever happens will happen after the fact So, um, all right as we're wrapping up here Jim, let's go ahead and tell people a little bit more about you so you have Very recently, maybe it'll be out by the time this uh, I mean we're it's it's it's happening I don't know when this is going to come out exactly, but your new book 10 pieces for field drum Which you said was published by pulsa musica. Is that correct? Yeah, p u l s a music with an a on the end So where can people find all this stuff, you know and and get in touch with you if they want They have a website pulsa musica has a website. That's george willis who's the percussion instructor Uh at west virginia university in morgan town is starting this business along with mark reilly Who's the sergeant major of the the old guard fife and drum corps and and washington the government Fife and drum corps part of the united states army third infantry regiment Uh, those two fellows have started this pulsa musica place. So that book is a book of 10 10 rudimental Uh pieces of different I like to think they're 10 different pieces not just one long string of rudiments People who want to get in touch with me for any reason I guess one way to do that is the Connecticut valley field music is the name of my fife and drum group And we have a website if you look up connecticut like the name of the state connecticut valley field music That's an old name for a military fife and drum group of field music We have a we made a very nice cd. I think I'm really quite proud of that Um a lot of our music is put up there. You can get pdfs of the music and anybody who's interested We'll send pdfs of the music to whoever's interested in doing some of that stuff And then you can contact me personally through the website our People who do that will keep track of me. Yeah I also did if anybody's interested in traditional Traditional rudimental drumming in america I did a book for wesley and university press about a decade ago just a decade ago and and that's called Connecticut's fife and drum tradition published by wesley and university press and last I knew that was available on amazon and I have copies too I can autograph a copy for you and send it off to you if you anybody's interested in in that and that does deals A lot with the history of rudimental drumming A little bit from its origins in europe Up to fairly modern times in in new england. That's great. Well, you know it From doing this show and from really connecting and talking with a lot of different people who I love when people reach out and we talk and There's a lot of very passionate rudimental drummers out there who love hearing this stuff From what I can tell they're typically Above the age of like 40 So i'm hoping that people listening to this will be more interested and maybe younger people just don't reach out and contact me but but um I think that uh, it'd be great to hear more about how there's younger drummers and marching bands and doing stuff at school So I think it's it's not going away, right? I think it's alive and well and just just having this conversation might spark people to to be interested in it if they're You know if it's available in their town and and to get practicing with their their rudiments From hearing you talk about it Well, I hope so. Thank you very much. Yeah, absolutely. So let's uh, real quick again Let's thank kyle krzewski for uh, kyle. I hope i'm pronouncing your last name, right? I know I've he's been he's recommended a few great episodes. Um, so I think I got it, right? So kyle. Thank you again for Suggesting and connecting me with jim and now jim if you have a couple extra minutes I'd love to after we after we finish this episode you said before Uh, which I had to write it down. Um, that just your thoughts on the paradiddle and there's Some more information and it's not said as straightforward as people think so Um, and then maybe we can talk a little history and stuff But if that's okay, I'd love to pick your brain a little bit about paradiddles Which maybe is the most common or popular rudiment that everyone even non rudimental drummers know So I'm excited to you sure that'll be fun. Yeah, so thanks to everyone for listening If you want to hear that bonus episode you can go to drumhistorypodcast.com. There's a patreon link and um There's a ton of bonus episodes on there, which you can hear dating back a few months from when I started that So jim thank you so much for taking the time to be here and uh, sharing your immense knowledge and passion For rudimental drumming with me and my listeners. Thank you very much bark If you like this podcast find me on social media at drumhistory and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning