 Thank you for keeping us company. Discussion Monday kicks off right now. We are looking at the hulabalu surrounding the referendum question and the BBI. So while Kenya is still plagued by major crisis like rampaging youth unemployment, raising cost of living, corruption and rampant national debt, we are asking who is going to save this ship. Now, back in 2017 and it will begin with you, Rayl Odinga was against the election boundaries commission. He was furious about it, if I could say. And now he has been silent. And then there is this question of referendum where we want to go to the referendum, a part of the country wants for the referendum. Now who will conduct this referendum? Is it not the IBC? And why is a former premier Rayl Odinga not talking about it? Thank you so much, Hilary, for having me. So I think Rayl always plays to what will benefit him at the end of the day. And it's not just even the issue of questions of IBC. As you saw in the embrace team went to Kisumu. Issues were like, we have baby pendo, we have Chris Musando's wife is still asking when will justice come fold. As to the question of the referendum at this point in time, I believe it's inevitable. We also have the Pungusamizigo Bill, and we can see sharp divisions between, maybe not so sharp, between Ruto and Rayla, with Ruto of course being the hustler and the people's... President. No, he's the people's president is for the Pungusamizigo. And we had Baba clearly say that the referendum that's going to come from the BBI Itaungusamizigo, which is to mean he wants to introduce inclusivity. I think Baba is a smart politician, and he always plays to what ends will benefit him. All right. Gojuri, the contract between Rayl Odinga and president Urukanyata, no one knew until they came out shaking hands. And the thing was we are uniting Kenyans. And the question of referendum, we haven't gotten a clear indication that maybe president Urukanyata wants it or he doesn't. But Rayla has been heard saying about the referendum and he has hinted it will happen soon, actually before maybe the end of this year. Now, what's your take on this? Yes, of course. Thank you, Hirari, for having me as well today. Any word that comes from the mouth of a politician is not an eventuality. The beneficial is always there. And it is always planned. Rayla Odinga came into the handshake with various hidden intentions, as you can see because if you take what he spoke in trokana as well as what he spoke at Kibra yesterday seriously, then the phenomenon there is as clear as light. Therefore, for me, it is not about whether Rayla Odinga will instigate the referendum discourse or not. For me, the most important thing is whether the so-called referendum is of an impact to the life of Kenyans. Those people who wake up every day to go and work in the informal sector, those people who work in offices but at the same time pay the taxes but the elite political class of this country takes all the rest of the funds in the economy. So, for me, the issue of whether it is Rayla Odinga or not doesn't matter. I am more keen to see what the referendum will bring to the table of Kenyans and how Kenyans will also receive such news. And for the team that will support a referendum that gives the lives of Kenyans a better impact going forward. And when I weigh both of them because I've heard there is the BBI and the Punguza Mizigo both of them have got their weaknesses and strengths because they will not meet each and every Kenyan in such cold as concern. Let me hear Francis point on this. Yes. All right, Francis, even as we talk about the BBI and the referendum and the IEBC in question who will conduct it, there are, okay, the word has it maybe because majority of the BBI people are parliament. That is. So are we expecting to see the referendum going through the parliament, the constitution change? You let go through the parliament and if it does go through that route what will happen to the electorates? Thank you Hilary for having me today. Well, it's an option that the BBI team has because then we know our constitution it allows us space either to change to go to a referendum or either to change the constitution through the parliament. So it's an option that of course the people pushing the BBI agenda have but according to me it will be a bit hard for the BBI team to achieve their goal through the parliament yeah because I'm weighing into the Punguza Mizigo issue and really you know Punguza Mizigo as far as I can see those people really relate to the common monainchi even just because of their name and the agenda that they are pushing they relate more to the monainchi and well if you see the political game that is playing right now I don't see the BBI team having the majority of members of parliament to push the agenda through parliament. All right Anita we have 16 agendas by the Punguza Mizigo bill and here is the BBI with nine points clearly saying they want to unite Kenyans and to look into the historical injustices. Do you think the Punguza Mizigo is a treat for Kenyans while the BBI is maybe a trickery? Yes I fully support that Hillary because the injustices, the lack of inclusivity, divisive elections the nine point agenda by BBI is a narrative that we've had since we got independence and we've had the truth reconciliation injustice commission we've had the work on reports we've had all this in fact the constitution was supposed to remedy that's why we have devolution today the constitution was supposed to which is also another part of the nine point agenda the constitution was supposed to remedy all these things so I don't believe there is anything new the BBI is going to add apart from taking us back to 207 when we had divisive elections and we had the introduction of the position of a prime minister number two the BBI is yet to table any recommendations they've just said these are the nine point agenda issues that we have we are still consulting yet we've given them 10 billion so we've heard about I think they've been in operation for about one and a half years to maybe two years and we've yet to see anything they're just working around the country but as for Pungusamizigo I am seeing something tangible I am seeing a bill Ekuro Okotendi's team have gone to 10 actually the route according to article 257 of the constitution is for you to initiate what BBI is doing is literally nothing as a food step to the referendum according to the constitution you have to collect signatures which Ekuro Okotendi's team collected one million they collected 1.4 million verified by the IBC and it brings us back to the question that you asked again Rayla doesn't believe in IBC so if this team BBI starts the process according to article 257 will he ask the IBC that he doesn't trust to do the again they count for one million votes so Ekuro and his team collected one for 1.4 million votes they are going to counties they've gone to Nakuru I've seen they in Wasingishu they've gone to Busia they should get 24 out of the 47 counties that that we have then after that the bill goes to parliament and you mentioned if BBI will get support from parliament it may but it still has to go through the county assemblies so I don't know and and it's worrying because now we are nearing the general election at what point will we have the referendum will the contents of the referendum also have the questions that you're bringing on board about the IBC are we going to to remember IBC as it is constituted currently it's also unconstitutional because you remember Roslina Combe we have Koninkada the commissioners are not there doesn't have gender parity but they argue as long as they are three constitutionally it's a full body it cannot because according to the constitution still even when you go to gender two-thirds gender rule it's still unconstitutional so for me if BBI BBI is trickery it's to please a few people and it is actually the way the deputy president puts it it's a dynasty thing the common monanchi can simply not relate as to the Punguzami Zigo bill we are wondering why we have all these legislatures on board we are wondering what they bring to the table we are wondering how is it benefiting to the monanchi and we are seeing everyday things are chaotic so we better have a better way forward through Punguzami Zigo and Konjuri it's clear at some point here I've heard you on several occasions and I've seen how you react on referendum but now things seems to be moving very fast what's your take in the current state of the question of referendum should we have it and the BBI is it helping anyone you see of course both teams that is the BBI team and the Punguzami Zigo as I alluded earlier have their weaknesses and truth be said we look at the points that the BBI will seek to give to the people as well as the points that the Punguzami Zigo have given to the people and I see a situation whereby there will come a time when both of them will have now to sit down for a national discourse so in essence both of them are going nowhere as far as I'm concerned so they will have to come to a convergence and discuss pick those points that benefit Kenyans and also if there is a question of inclusivity define inclusivity in a more logic manner than to say that you have to create the positions of the prime minister in order to make inclusivity possible whereas we have nominated positions we also have appointed positions to the cabinet as well as we have the registrative positions in parliament so at the end of all this political tasu I can predict and at least the last time I checked the last prophecy I made came through this one to we will come through and history make no mistake history is on the side of Kenyans and Kenyans are not interested in all these things that you are seeing in political Alice in those assemblies and in the high cream of politics so at the end of the day if a referendum is going to happen then both the Punguza Mizigo and the BBI will have to come together and agree or else they will go back with their proposals to where they came from but at least from the president side he was very honest he gave his reasons as to why he brought this country together it was not a political card setting for Raila Odinga or Rindibodh Yelz he also stated during the Matthews Barrio on Saturday that he is not interested in garnering or looking for any votes but his main mission was to save this country from that political animosity so going forward the president will not be blamed on this history will be rough on the side of Raila Odinga and if what he said in Kibrai something to go by then who are we than to tell him right in the eye stop playing with our minds yes now the friends is for most of the politicians that feel like a referendum will unite Kenyans maybe because of the handshake or something else but do you agree with them um it's unfortunate that Kenyans will sit there and let politicians decide our future well right now it's unfortunate again that it's the politicians who are running the referendum agenda hey this constitution is ours as Kenyans now whether a new constitution is the one to unite Kenyans or not I really think that is not the point if Kenyans really wanted to unite yeah it's up to us to leave our bad manners in terms of violating the constitution the way it is yeah because you can remember in 2010 we were so happy at Uhuru Pak yeah we were so happy inaugurating this constitution that we have well it's less than 10 years into it we already want to change it what guaranteed we have that if someone gets a prime minister seat and this other one gets a deputy prime minister then that is the definition of inclusivity I think really referendum is not the answer to the problems that we facing as Kenyans in terms of ethnic division and all that all right just to add something and very important the people of Kenya should work very hard to put democracy on a farmer footing by pursuing the concession of defeat by elections losers even in the wake of closely contested elections the problem is not our constitution when we speak about mantas of inclusivity the problem has been that certain candidates get into elections with the mentality that they have to win and if they lose then that election is lead therefore going forward and I wonder why Kenyans also give these people space to exploit their minds and reasoning we gave ourselves a constitution that was supposed to guide us and going forward we have what we have seen as challenges is the constitution is it really the creation of positions or it is affirming the freedoms that are enshrined is the constitution and the social contract as well as making sure that public policy is working on the side of Kenyans all right now as we wind up Anita I want to maybe finish with you on this while Kenyans may never or will never understand what went on in the Harambe House until they saw the handshake and what we Kenyans we were told about the uniting Kenyans now do you think if we would have a referendum today would legitimize the closed meeting President Orkinyatahed with Reilo Dingo to be honest the meeting between a president and an opposition leader I don't see anything to legitimize about for me it's a simply a meeting and in the words of my mentor it was more of a handshake and check miguna miguna that is so from where I stand I believe actually unfortunately the referendum is inevitable but if I want to have it my way the 2010 constitution is perfect as it is the problem has been the implementation the problem has been governance the problem has been politics because if you look at for example simple matters like chapter six of the constitution on leadership ethics and integrity if this were implemented the DPP the ESCC would have some footing but as it is we are just seeing the showdowns today our governor especially when Tito is arrested today he's given a court order he's saying he can operate his office anywhere he wants I mean things of this nature yet the court I mean what mode can we add to the constitution to if anything for me I believe let's strengthen the implementation let's push the judiciary more for example by setting the precedent if you're arrested today on cases of corruption within 21 days you're tried and you do not operate in your office but saying that I mean not every issue is a matter of legality sometimes we need to operate as he said under the social contract where we believe the government should do it's part and me as a taxpayer Francis as a taxpayer and Gojiria as a taxpayer gets value for his money so for me 2010 constitution is perfect all right very fast Francis your final words less than 30 seconds please thank you mine is just to ask Kenyans and especially the young people let's scrutinize each and everything that politicians bring away this is our country let's not inherit a country that is divided because of few politicians okay Gojiria final words briefly yes I I've just state something that was stated in the 20th century of course by the most virtuous what I'm leader then Winston Churchill that let it be in the long years to come not only the people of this country but citizens of the world wherever the bird of prosperity chaps in human hearts look back to what we've done and they will say do not yield do not despair let us all march straightforward with courage as brothers and sisters under the sun thank you Anita I wanted to conclude without you but I saw you react what you find final words on this no I was that shocked he is quoting Winston Churchill and we have Muguna but it's okay in Gojiria I'll introduce you to him thank you all right all right ladies and gentlemen many thanks for coming and sharing your comments and your opinions in regards to these they have been my guest of Francis or the end of Gojiri Kariuki and Anita Kirote coming up next is why Masha Riki I'm sure you'll be very much please stay tuned I'll be seeing you again on Monday next week until then have yourself a good night my name is Dereva Hillary