 I'm really pleased to introduce, Kehle is going to give the talk, Gilles is still here in the front row, they work together and he held the floor on Friday afternoon and Kehle will hold the floor today but they are both very deeply involved in the kind of work that's gone into what they're going to talk about, Kehle is going to talk about this evening. I've known them for many years, it's been my pleasure to have the opportunity to work in the part of the world where they are based, which is Toulouse, I work south of Toulouse, and they have been so hospitable and generous to me and my team, we've had many evening parties and meetings together after Dave's work in archaeology in the region. Kehle, as you will see from the description that went with the announcement, holds a PhD, she also holds a degree which is higher than a PhD in France from a major thesis that she completed a couple of years ago. She is well known for her meticulous work on understanding how prehistoric artists actually made some of the images that technique the body movements and looking at them microscopically. But behind all of that, as I think you'll hear this evening, she's really interested in the behaviors of these peoples that did this and of course is now currently the director of this amazing research team in Chauvet, Argot, Pond, Dac, Kehle and the Ardèche region. She will give you all the background you need on all of this, so without further ado, let me thank them both for coming back to Berkeley. They were here 12 years ago and it's wonderful to bring them back again and I'm fortunate to spend some time with them this week and we will now hear from them about one of the amazing kinds of things that we as humans have done in the past and please let us figure out better ways to work in the present and in the future. Thank you now. Thank you, May. Before I begin, I would like to thank the organization of this conference, the University of Berkeley and the love of archaeology. Thank you very much for that. I would like also to my apologies for my English, which is sometimes, how shall I say, out of normality, but I try to speak, in fact it's the first time for me in English and it's too easy to read it but to speak with a lot of people in front of you. So, okay, we go. It's better I think now. Before I start, I want to give my deepest gratitude to Jean Claude. Without him, we wouldn't be here today. And 224, next year, will be the 30th anniversary of the discovery of the cave by Jean-Marie Chouvet, Eliette Brunel and Christian Hilaire. It was the 80th December 1994. In January 1995, Jean Claude came to see us, Jean-Marie, in Paris and proposed to work with him in the cave. And if we are today here, Jean-Marie, thank you. Thank you, Jean Claude. After Jean Claude, we are new directors. It was Jean-Michel Jeunesse, since 10 years. And after Jean-Michel, I take the head of the team in 2018. And now we work each March in the cave with 25 people, but not at the same time. And the cave is very controlled by the Ministry of the Q2 for the conservation. It's a very important cave. And we need to take all the procedures for guarantee of the conservation. Upper Paléritique. What is the Upper Paléritique? The climate was cold, with the presence of megafauna, as mammoths, woolly rhinoceros, megaceros deer, bison, cave lion, cave bear and real deer. It's a very special environment for the people of this time. It's probably came to Western Europe between 50,000 and 42,000 years ago. At that time, Homo sapiens was one of the human species present in the Eurasian continent, with Neanderthals and also the Denisorian people. Their humanity has adapted to diverse ecosystems and developed biocultural niche environment, in which it creates conditions for the survival and demographic expansion. But most important of all was the development of the structural family and social link across long, long territory. Homo sapiens developed a vast social and economic network. This network is one of the major factors in this success. From this fundamental niche emerged the essential element of the communication network, the elaborate image. I would be at the center of the system for 30,000 years. It's very important for us because today we are also connected. The emergence of the elaborate graphic expression is multifactorial. All elements are interconnected. Connected maturity of the species, diversity and complexity of social environment, linguistic level of complexity, emergence of the codified social communication, the image, and the image itself. It's another of the mental and social projections. Homo sapiens illustrates and controls the social reality with the image. So what is the priority for? This diagram presents the main term of telepathic art over 30,000 years. The percentage database is around 10,000 figures. Animals are omnipresent of the decoration of the object and the wood of the cave. House, bison, deer, ebex, aurora are the major protagonists of this bestiary. Without forgetting the mammoth, bear cave, reindeer, lion cave, reed urino servos, etc. What does the distinctive characteristic of Palliarty have? It's the low percentage of human figure. Around also 6% over 30,000 years. Moreover, representations are highly realistic. For this humanity, the imagery and the storytelling are mainly supported as animal form, and not by human form. When we consider the bestiary of each cave, we see that cave are integrated into the general structure with some significant variations. In red, at chauvet, the dominant twinogy is feline woolly mammoth and woolly rhinoceros. For example, in green, at Koska Cave, it's horses, ebex, and deer with presence of steed animal, because the cave was near the sea. All sapiens extract from this day of human growth of this imagination, but always in the common structure for each cave. The form of Palliarty culture, the chronology of art is relatively long. But the art is not a big scale when you compare the art as the history of human population. So we need to know that we have more time between the Chauvet Cave, around 38,000, and Lascaux Cave, 17 times. That's Lascaux and Earth. In term of generation, it's a very, very long period for the knowledge of this art and the knowledge of the archaeology of this art, because in France we don't have only drawing on the cave and a field when you make excavation, for understanding and for our knowledge about the anthropology of the human from Palliarty. So we take a play from San Francisco to Ardèche Valley, and we go in the Ardèche Valley and you can see the localization of Chauvet Cave. It's near the Rhone Valley. The team is a faculty researcher from France, Spain, the US, Norway, and the University and the National Center for Research in France of the Ministry of Culture. This team is built for interdisciplinary. For me, it's an essential way to opening up your scientific approach. It's very important to cross different views and different science, scientific research for understanding this population. The Chauvet Cave is in the Cirque d'Este. You can see here, it's the bed of the Ardèche here, and here you have the mouth of the cave. It's a 3D rock constitution, and you can see that this cave in the landscape, it was a big mouth, and it was possible to see very well when you are in the bed of the river. The Chauvet Cave is a huge cave. You have 160 feet long, and you can see here the 3D model, the strainer profile from the cliff here at the end of the cave here. The red dots, it's in fact the polarity entrance. And today, we enter through the scene, in fact. With a lot of security, the actual entrance is in fact the entrance of the discovery. And at this time, the Jean-Marie Chauvet and Eliette Brunet have just... To protect the archaeological floor, we work on the footbridge, the metal footbridge. We only leave the metal footbridge on our floor, where there are no archaeological remains at the surface. Most of the time, we work from the safe distance because we wouldn't be able to access the wall and the floor. We have developed a 3D method for the floor and for the wall to help us in an analysis and an interpretation of archaeological fact. And you can see the circulation of the metal footbridge here and here the technique for the 3D with the distance. You can see this is the actual entrance of the cave, the little free, and we work here. And you can see this cave, it's very fantastic. Very nice for archaeologists, women, but also very nice for the sheer logic of the cave itself. The chronology of this cave, it's very important to speak about that. I don't just make a few reasons for that, but Chauvet cave, it's important for the panellistic because in 1995, when the first date arrived, it was a revolution, it's really the term. Because the date was very old, 35,000. And for archaeological people in this time, it was impossible to have this drawing and this time of evolution of people, of panellistic people. But now we know that it's possible. And you will see that the drawings are really like an analysis of art for the 14th century. It's the same way we are with people. They have a conical maturity and maturity of the drawing early in the time of the evolution of all these areas. So, you have a model sketch about the collapse and the collapse of the cave or the entrance of the cave. And we have a little lot of phase of 14,000 when the first individual can enter the cave. And the cave are there, in fact, cave there. And after 37 or 38 Orinatian people, they are coming for drawing, for drawing fire and for unscraving on the wall their mythology. And you have the three important elements. The collapse of the cave in the 29,000, 23 and 21. And we can say today that after 21, it was impossible for human people to enter the cave. The cave is closed for human. And that's very important because at the discovery of the cave, archaeologists said now it's not possible because it's too nice. And this cave is also the Magdalenian. Magdalenian is the end of the upper Paleolithic. Orinatian is the beginning of the upper Paleolithic. And you know the distance for that. And we know now 21,000, it's closed. It's definitely not closed. For that, we use the chlorine-36 dating method. And it's very precise. And for the painting, we use a C-14 for the drawing, made with charcoal because we need an organic substance for the donation. So also we can interpret that. We have two steps of the realization in the drawing in the cave. The first step for the organization between more than 37,000, and for the gravitation, 31,000, 29,000, and it's just two periods for the human activity. We have in the cave a lot of wildlife independent of human activity. The more important of this diversity, it's near the port of the cave here. But we have also, you can see the grail dots. It's difficult. The grail dots are the represented of the bare cave, element of the bare cave in the cave. You can see, for example, for the ebex, the skeleton element here. And you can also see in the cave full print in the cave. So the can bear is very significant. This presence is very important in the cave with bone, bare bear, bare bear, sorry, and full print. We have around 190 individuals in this handsome. You can see, you see the head of the bear. You can see here. And my colleagues on the metal print for study, the bone. Bare bear are very important in the cave. You can see this depression. In fact, it's the bear when he comes in the cave for the ebex, ebex, ebex, sorry. They made a bed there for all the windows. And we can see we have some sleeping area close the entrance here. But the abandoned sleeping area is at the hand of the cave. There are present also with a few stretches in the first room. And you can see this crushed wall for the territory. And you can see here the drawing from the female bear with two teddy bears. And we can see on the wall here, scratching and you see scratch from teddy bear and also on the plate. The bear is very important because in Shoei cave it's the first time that we have interaction between cave bear and human. It's the first time for all cave in the world. And in this panel you can see a cave lion here too. One female bear and one male bear. And you can see the head lion and the scratch of the bear. But if you see the back, you can see the scratch on the left of the lion. And we have here the proof that we have interaction in the cave between human and bear. And how can explain that? How human say, yes, I can go in the cave because the bear is not here. The cave bear is very big one. Big, big one. More big, that's originally one. And also we can explain that for the knowledge of the animal, viperitic people. A very good knowledge. And we also, the artifact givers also a chronology, relative chronology for the use of the cave by humans. Because you might know that the bear are in the cave in the winter and people in the cave between two winter seasons. We can see also footprint, footprint tracks. And here you have footprint from the bear one and the tag bear. And you can see also in France we say for the front leg the hand and for the back leg the foot. Lack first for the bear. And here you have one hand and one foot. Human actually. And also we are in the South Bucane and human action with bear skeleton. And at the center of this big chamber we have a bear skull placed on the rock and the rock fall out from the ceiling. J's skull is not alone in this room and other skeleton element are also present. We need time for study the room more closely in order to draw conclusion. So we have an archaeological fact. We are sure that the skull didn't come onto the rock itself. Or it's bear, I don't know. But we know that. And it's difficult today to say we are in front of bear culture. I can't say that today. Because we need more time for the study and it's very, very difficult because it's a real, it's very fragile. We have in the cave some, the term fireplace, it's so difficult because it's not fireplace, it's structure is fireplace. It's more charcoal on the soil with a block. And we know that when you are in the cave you need light to see and you need light and you need to produce charcoal for the drawing. In fact, you can see that very charcoal place with a very big piece of charcoal and just behind you have this very nice house. Here, house. So we know now in the cave that we don't have the rarities of fireplace but we are on the ceiling of the rock. So indirect evidence of this fireplace because we have rubric-shaped cast on the wall, on the ceiling. And you can see the red dots it's the place where we can see this artifact. So we are in the Megaceros gallery the 3D, a piece of the 3D and you can see here the rubric-shaped patch. You are on the red and the gray here it's not natural, it's from the fire and here, the pink color here and here. So at this place we have a very big fire around 40 degrees 400 degrees of intensity of fire. It's very, very important. Or we can see also here and here the limestone, it's white because the fire is straddling part of a limestone in the cave. So we don't have the fireplace on the ground, on the floor we are on the ceiling or on the wall artifact that we can understand and atoprate the fireplace. We are at the beginning in the cave at the beginning of just here the priority entrance is here and we can see this place the name is Salle Bourden. In this place you can see red dots on the wall here and here and this red dot it's like a rhino, woolly rhino with a back, with a head and with a hole here and a front-layered backing. In fact, it's dots but not really dots like a circle. When you can study the dots more close you can see that it's a palm of the hand and they put a palm in the red color and they put a palm on the wall for create dots and when we close a little bit more sometimes we can see the finger of the palm here. So it's very interesting because they use the hand for dots and what is the hand interpretation and it looks like it's not an imprint of the wall but just dots and it's a contact between the human and the wall in this case too. We move a little bit more in the cave and at the area of the red panel gallery it's very nice, nice cave and the red can see that you can see on the ground was not present in the priority time but also today it's a very nice cave with a red, orange can see it white can see it on the wall and on the floor and it's very fantastic. So in the red panel you can see the composition of this panel and you can see it's difficult to study him because we have five metres of the distance between the wall and the house and at the bottom of the image you can see the tracin so we record all visible human and animal action of the panel and we want to investigate the technique and the processes for the artistic creation to understand the way how people have the knowledge to organise this figure and to create the figure. So just a picture you can see the big, big red rhino we know that this element is a female rhino because they have a big home and we know that with a frozen animal and a Siberian you can see the hand print here and sign a W sign here and other rhino here and this rhino is very important because in this panel is the first time that we can see hand-grabbing with red pigment and when we use the oblique line we can observe very fine hand-grabbing line on the wall in this part here but I think on the screen it's very difficult don't you need to to imagine it but with tracin you can see another rhino, big rhino just here and in fact the hand-grabbing line are way better on the tracin here we need to understand study a panel in Chevecke or in other can, it's the same we need to organise the lines for not only see the pigment but also our hand-grabbing so in this panel you can see here the very nice mount with the tongue the finger of the tongue and the front leg and the head here the lion head with the dots like they are he is speaking it's like the the speak and print and certainly the more famous hand-stancing of the can the red line with the back of the mount and we can see the view of this panel when we are on the back the entrance for the side ear and at the end of the can in fact the side layer are evolved from the gallery du siège here and we are on the back here this panel and we arrive in the big future chamber with the big collapse at the centre here and the bear skeleton on the rock is here and you have the panel of horses here and the way to go in the side you can see how we work in the cave on the metal food breed with a very special light and it's very very good work so the panel of the engraved horse it's very famous one with the big horse also here and two mammoths one here another one here and the first and you can see the little mammoth and the back of the bison here and the whole of this bison here and here bear that it's a very important panel this panel is important because it's engraved with hand and finger the surface of the limestone it's very smooth and it's possible in fact to engrave the limestone with hand and it's very important because you can see all the process of the creation all kind of the action of this panel we can see the horses and here you have the head you can see them high and you can read in fact all the gesture of artist here you have the the head just with the finger and for the high just a chalk like that and for the back in the belly of the horse just like that it's very efficient and very dynamic drawing and the exceptional state of preservation of the cave you can identify it look at that the raw material here in suspension in the head like 37,000 it's incredible and you can see very nice superimposition this engraving on this engraving and for us when we can approach the panel it's very easy to understand the process of the creation so we go now at the also the area and you can see the whole campsite at the center of the cave here and the sector is here and I hope that's it it's a 3D model a piece of the 3D model of the sector you can see here also the lion bear and horse so I know the frustration when we come in the cave and I try to give you an image it's really incredible so we are in the sector with a 51 drawing in charcoal and we have the detection all drawings, black drawings in the cave and in the sector so you can see the tracing but it's we are working with Gilles on this panel and for us it was really fantastic it's like to study one Leonardo da Vinci or the ceiling of the 16th chapel for me for us it's like that and it was very impressive in fact I don't have a word for describe my emotion when I was just in front of this panel so now we can see some image of rhinoceros baby one here and here another one with the black belly here another one under the hall rock the hall rock are very very big and huge with very special holes projected behind them and we always speak about the technique in pure minutes and they are very very very nice so we know the technique for the realization of this figure people use a charcoal and tool action as wood line the shape and as a raw material to the stump and it's incredible but true the wall is in fact the support of the drawing and the wall material for the drawing and you have here piece of charcoal and you have the white of the and you have also here some brown color of the of the clay sorry and when you mixed charcoal white of the game store a brown of the clay you realize the stump and the stump it's gray black or gray brown or black brown and you can use this color for the chunk and for the volume of the figure and each action are made and you can see in fact in this picture piece of color and mixed and if you if you see in fact you can see the movement of the hand posture here here and the brown gray color and the gray it's like an actual artist and in some case animal head are highlighted with a faint the gesture in fact finalize the drawing and rotation and for this very nice head of course you can see here the highlighting with a faint with a very very gesture very precise very rapid and it's like when you're drawing with a figure it's impossible to have a line very precise line and you need to highlight this line with a flick for a very nice contrast between the white of the panel of the wall and the black of the figure it's possible to have a summary of the technique that we can find in the in the cave we can too draw in just with a finger with a hand of the wall or with charcoal or we have more important technique when impossible before you're drawing with a charcoal and you prepare you have the drawing with a charcoal you start with a hand you outline the figure it's the first that we can find at the hand of the cave so with a technique we have a relationship between each panel in the cave and it's the important it's not the color because we can't find this technique with a red color it's just how we can make it and why we want to make it like that so we have studied also the superimposition of each figure for each drawing and each line of the drawing and with this information we can understand how the drawing are made and we can propose a creative model of the figure after all of the panel you have the roll surface and the first action is by bear it's better the first protocol is towards the bear on the wall scratching and after at the at the bottom at the top, thank you of the panel we have some engraving with one mammoth and one rhino after you have the preparation of the roll some little figure that is impossible to say to have ecology because we don't have the superimposition but the big figure are on the wall and the first of them is the two rhino at the bottom and the beginning is from the right to the left after the three to the the top to the bottom and at the end the also with the same process from the top to the bottom the composition are run from the bottom to the center at the center in fact you have this also and it's the focal point of view of the viewer that if we have in front of the panel and we can understand now why there is this quality of the drawing for this figure I give you some picture that's little alcohol just after this panel you can see and the three also are very exceptional with the same techniques and also the two lions one female here and here sorry the female and the lion and you can see the also the old detail of the head with the strength with the two eyes here one out of the line of the head and one here and some red thing on the neck you can see also the detail of the the figure view by a cultural way and the reality of the lion and we can see that very typical of the real knowledge of the real animals but it's not a real animal it's a view through the cultural way and that is very important it's not a photography from the outside of the cave and the lab chamber the name it's a side view it's a hand on the hand of the cave I try to make something for you no no no it's okay I take another way it's okay but I won't please you are at the entrance of the chamber of the left panel and you can see the two lions that you saw at the beginning with their stretching and the head and on the back and now the 3D it's important because you can see the cave like we it's impossible to see when you are in the cave in fact this panel it's a it's a it's a it's a the lion panel it's 2.5 meters long and that's in the cave it's impossible to see that that for us it's impossible to work in this space of the cave and we do that with the bench a long stick with a camera so so you can see the house in the alcove and you have the same structure that's also spanning in their chamber with the alcove in the center and two panels on the right and the left and for the scale are as the same dimension that a real lion so we can imagine it's difficult to imagine what was the real impression of the palette of people in this cave and in this chamber because the little 3D movie you have a light constant light but it's important to imagine that in the palette it's just a fire light and for them it was impossible to see the cave that you can see it now and you have the shadow and it was impossible to see all the panel in the same way you have a focus but never in the in the general view and that's very important also it's difficult to imagine the movement of the body in the cave because the ground is not flat you have a bare bed, you have a a wall, it's very difficult and you have the torch and the hand and it's important also to understand that the cave it's a architecture for the figure in fact it's architecture for the storytelling of the palette of people and I put some images and you can see the same technique that I speak about for the saucepanel with the outline with the energy and the big house the big head of flying and if you can see under the black lion you have the red red red point and line with this stretch and I am so good to to use this stretch with the person that's here and that's a great stretch in this room and thank you very much and when we use this stretch you can see that in fact you have the same structure in red that in black and I can speak about you exceptionally today that now we know that's a black figure of lion that's 38,000 and you have to see that that's a red painting that's 38,000 it's not published for the moment but it's coming the black it's possible just a T14 for the black because it's charcoal and it's impossible for her to have a date for the red but for that it's very important to have a high degree of precision for the black painting you can see the rhino with the high lighting with the black and this it's very incredible the multiplicity of the of the horn of the back it's a lot of rhino or just one rhino it's very important it's difficult to go but you can see the technology and the the good way of the gesture it's if you are if you try to draw on the wall if you make an error it's finished and you don't have error of the drawing in this part baby mammoth here with a with a ball we will speak about this part of the panel for speaking about this part of the panel Jean make a sketch because it's more easy but you can see lion, bison and for more visibility with the sketch so we perceive the complex of the wall impression and this impression is related to a single graphic space you are too light that defines the shape of the space on the horizontal and vertical on the two edge of the wall and in fact you have a frame here in this frame the view your eyes are attacked by the areas of the lion the black pupil here with a white background and it's for us it's a very attractive element of the head of the lion in fact the lion forcing the visitor to press to have a perception of the horizontality you have the head they are on the front and the leg here and the eyes we have the same rules for the bison but in the verticality and the head and the organization is very very clear and you have a conflict between the lion horizontality of the lion and the verticality of the bison in fact we can interpret that like a like a sand and it's like the lion go on the head of the bison and the head of the bison and suddenly turning toward us here and here you have on the verticality just the head of the bison and the head they are looking first looking the viewer in the room this interpretation of this panel are simple we are before the repetition of the predation lion wants of the bison head and one bison here on the left at the top feel that the different direction for the rest of the head he escapes at the fatal destiny of this coordinator and the fact that you are here by the top towards the spectator you have what's the name it's in France joint attention attention I don't know if we can translate like that but it's very important because remember you are just the light of the torch and you can see that in the same way and the bison toward us and this action and from the spectator in the scene and if we have the mythology here it's a story telling about a lion and a carnivore and a herbivore and you have the spectator and certainly you have one human that speaks about the story telling and the story telling it's what it's a animal figure that's a story telling of human action but it's not finish you have the panel here and in front of this panel you have the pendant here and on the pendant you have lion bison and the body the bottom of the body of the woman and I put just on the left the prohibition statrate here and you can see that's here and here it's the same we are what if we can explain what I think but I have nothing to prove that but for me for Gilles, Tosello and other we are a mythology of the life and the date and you have the body of the female that's its life and you have the lion on the head of the business date and in fact it's the life of palliative people you need to death for life you need to eat for life the special organization effectively illustrates that the graphic talent of the maker constitutes the repertoire of the quality of the individual who were involved according to gender as in cultural breakthrough different brain mechanists are applied for the treatment of space as a drawing and with the show became we know today that it's not it's important to understand and to see the drawing not also panel by panel but in the room of the chamber the chamber is like a scenography of the storytelling for these people we know also today that the image it's the beginning of the image for how spacey for us because we are of the sapiens and we know today that the image it was the beginning in Chauvet and you can see the rock art in Africa in the U.S. that the imagery important for people and for people in the past here or also here and also people for the present thank you very much I am very sorry for my English so at the beginning I want to explain something for the son but the folder for the son is not good since two years now we are working with a ten-fold university and the lab of John Shawley the carman for understanding the sound in the cave for us it's very important because of the son it's not also the music it's also the voice it's also the sound of the figure it's also the sound when you work on the clay and we want to understand all of all of the effect of that and today it's possible to do that because we have the 3G and with the 3G it's possible to have a model of the son in the cave and the team of tenfold they talk about that they capture sound today with all difference with a metal full for the sidewalk sorry and after they work on the lab to extract the full sound and after they reintroduce the good sound with the 3G model that it's a very long work but the first the first sound that we can have it's very interesting yeah you are I can give you after Stanford to give on the internet a general example of that but it's very beginning and it's very interesting for us and we are happy to have the sound of the cave since 38,000 years ago but it's not really the final result of the research and in fact it's just the beginning and we have a French people the name is she work on the PHD in Stanford I'm sorry so for that we use this stretch so in cave it's difficult because we are on the wall a calcite deposit and sometimes it's not work because in calcite it's have an effect for the visibility when you have a picture and for us too but I think that we are all the figure today in the cave and we don't have other surprise and I'm so sad but Gilles if you want to say something say how many people were making is there any way it's a very complex question because the first part of the answer would be that the C14 gives us sort of marks between 30 and 36,000 and things like that and that means that you have at least 6,000 years of human presentations in the cave that means in terms of generation it's more than 250 or I don't remember exactly and we notice that so you have a very long period of time and it doesn't mean that people went every year or every day in the cave it's just a general frame but that means also that if you look at for example the rhinos that Carol showed you if we make a general survey of all the rhinos then you see that much details in common whatever the color or the technique that means that if they are red or engraved or black you have the same way to draw the ears or the horns or certain details of the eye and so on that means that of course it is not the same person who made all this drawing during 6,000 years that means that you have something like a apprenticeship and the knowledge was transmitted from one generation to another and they had a sort of probably a special way of drawing anymore that was special to this group and they were transmitting that and this is also now it's a problem to see how many individuals have worked because if you have such a cohesion, such a motionality of drawings that means that it's really difficult to isolate the personality of such a group but it is possible sometimes on very tiny details and I don't have the feeling for example if you have in mind the black figures the black drawings that are the most important they are iconic to the cave and they are the most elaborated figure we have the most elaborated works of art and if you look at these groups and these panels I don't have the feeling that there were many people I wouldn't say one but maybe three, four something like that we don't know exactly how they were working only one was a master and then you had your apprenticeship of if they were working two or three together but something like that it's a very few people that were at that time I don't know I think I already said on Friday but I think that at that time and for this cave we can for sure say that some of these artists were really some visionary they were completely in advance or they were thinking about problems that were concerning all the artists forever and for example the way of how is it possible to represent to think about to figure to draw an image, a story how can you tell a story Karl showed you how it's really unique in that cave and also all these rhinos accumulated on the panel and tried to express probably some kind of research artist research on perspective how can I represent her and one animal the foreground and others and so on that's really something you know it's difficult to imagine that because most of the time when we think of these people we see them like spending most of the time praying food searching food and they were not they don't have leisure or they don't have time to think of everything else but in fact you see that they have in the head in the brain and in the head such a human you know this perhaps the most the best part of humanity in the way that they were able to create in art and to not only a simple art just to you know draw something on the wall but thinking of you know problems and questions that were at the beginning that they were concerning of all periods even long after the the end of the patriotic question is there any indication children may have made any campus it's also a very good question it could happen because when I talk about apprenticeship that means that young people are you know concerned at first place that means that probably they were but do they have the right to touch the wall really in the care of the right only to train outside the care that's but some drawings are quite not all the drawings are exceptional works of art some of them are really so quick design it could be some items of young people yeah it could be a bit out of reaching but there are also drawings made close to the ground you have one more question sir yes do you know of a huge drawing you were in it yeah yeah we were in yeah it's a good it's a good movie for the end the end is really surprising the end with the white crocodile something probably a pure you know invention maybe was informed about the story it's very Bernard Herzog right well we we were I think we've really unfortunately gone over our time tonight and we thank you for being here we'll take a few minutes at the end because we didn't want to ask in front of other people but thank you Carol for such a detailed talk I think game is a really good sense of what's there and how you have been able to do the kind of detailed research so that you can bring that to us in different media and different formats and of course you know thank you thank you