 Hello everyone and welcome to the end user lounge where we explore how cloud native technologies are adopted by end user organizations across different industries and sectors. Just as a reminder, the CNCF end user community is formed of more than 145 organizations that use open source tooling to build their services, but they don't sell it. So the vendor neutrality is quite an important characteristic for our community. My name is Katie Gamanji and currently I am the ecosystem advocate at CNCF and I am leading and representing the end user community, but at the same time making sure to bridge the gap between the end user, the practitioners and the project maintainers. These live streams, as mentioned, we aim to bring end users to showcase their organizations, navigate the cloud native ecosystem and we'll try to deliver these streams to you every first Thursday of month at 9 a.m. PT. As well, just some housekeeping items. This is an official live stream from the CNCF as such a subject to the CNCF kind of conduct. So please make sure that you are respectful to all of the attendees, the guests and the hosts today. And if you have any questions, please ask them in the platform of your choice that you're currently watching us. We'll make sure to monitor them throughout the stream so you can ask them for our Twitch, YouTube, LinkedIn or Periscope, your choice of the platform. We're gonna see your questions. And I am currently extremely delighted to have Jasmine James, which is our guest today. And we're gonna talk about how can we elevate the developer experience using cloud native tooling. Before we dive into some of the starting questions, Jasmine, would you be able to introduce brief yourself and what you currently do? Absolutely. Thank you so much, Katie, for having me very excited to be a part of this great and new live stream. So hi everybody, my name is Jasmine James. Currently the developer experience lead at Twitter. Previous to Twitter, I worked for Delta Airlines working in the DevOps Center of Excellence, had a hand in implementing not only the tooling that enabled modern development, but also our cloud native journey. So very delighted to be here. I've been a part of a lot of the CNCF conferences and community as an end user and how I've learned a lot. So I'm super excited to share something today. Thank you for being with us today. I'm super excited to have you, especially that you have been prominent in the community for quite a while and now you're one of the co-chairs for KubeCon and Cloud NativeCon North America. So we're gonna dive into some of those areas and topics as well. But before we do so, would you be able to maybe introduce some of your motivation to become a developer experience lead in your past roles and your current role? And could you maybe introduce what your team's responsibilities are at the moment? Absolutely. So I kind of found myself in this role by being a quality engineer at the start of my career and a systems engineer when I transitioned to Delta. And historically, all of my roles have been supporting the software development lifecycle through writing tests, automation, providing infrastructure automation to make it easy for deploying, but never actually software development. So DevOps is where I found myself over the past few years. And by having a large interaction with developers, enabling them learning about their woes and pain points, there was always a part of me like, well, we could leverage a lot of this automation and a lot of the capabilities that are out there to make their lives easier. So during my time at Delta, we did that through a variety of capabilities automation, Kubernetes implementing the platform as a service. And I really loved kind of the ease that it provided. You didn't have to worry about so many aspects of deploying and it really changed individuals' lives. So it became a passion of mine. Recently, I found myself working, coming into Twitter and leading the developer experience pillar. The primary responsibilities of our pillar is to make sure that we're interacting with customers, internal customers being engineers and making sure that they're heard in learning their pain points throughout their development process. So I work closely with product management to make sure we're talking to customers, driving data gathering and making sure prioritization of our internal projects address the most impactful and impactful ways to our internal engineers. So that could be things like making sure that our laptops are performant. That could be things like making sure that we have documentation in place, even something as simple as making sure that they're supported while they're using these tools. So those are the core responsibilities of my pillar right now. That's actually quite insightful. Thank you for sharing your background story because I think everyone has such a different unique way to get into using cloud-native tools or being within this community. So it's kind of, for me personally, it's always interesting to dive into that. Now you've mentioned that the developer experience at Twitter at the moment is kind of a cornerstone one of the, maybe the features that your team is focusing quite heavily. Now, would you be able how this developer experience actually shapes the way you create and ship your services? Like what is actually the impact of having a separate developer experience too? Yeah, absolutely. So developer experience at my current company is not something new, but it's never been a centralized focus area. And what I mean by that, there's always feedback in the organization, right? There's always people that have, they wanna talk about the pain points, what's going well, that's not going well, but sometimes those conversations are held like within different ends of the organization and it's not centralized. So our focus is making sure that we're talking to everyone, right? And understanding the themes that are preventing a large part of the organizations from being as productive as possible. So we're taking this information, synthesizing it and then gathering data to make sure we're validating the hypothesis of what the improvements could be. So why is it a cornerstone? I think that by making sure all development community is heard and that we're validating these things, we can then drive high priority, high impact projects that really make waves within the organization and drive productivity gains. Now, this is really cool. And actually being responsive to the feedback within the organization, I think it's one of the main engines to drive the product by the culture inside as well. And I would like to maybe ask how you achieve delivering this best developer experience using cloud native tools and what motivated your transition into looking to cloud native tools and adopting them internally? Yeah, absolutely. So I have two very different stories about this because between Delta and my current company, Twitter, two very different environments. So the first part of my journey in adopting cloud native tools was at Delta, of course. And there were events that transpired that really made us think, how are we going to make our infrastructure more modern and become more agile essentially? And a large part of being more agile is making sure that you can move quickly and re-architect those services. You go from monolithic applications to microservices so that the changes are not so large and disruptive to the environment. So a large part of the impetus of cloud native at Delta was a new CIO joining the company. And he sparked the, just really the start of us start working towards adopting Kubernetes internally first within our local data center, but then also thinking about how we can flex within the public cloud as well. So making it easy for us to, if we need additional capacity, be able to quickly scale up certain components within our environment and application ecosystem so that way we could have the capacity necessary to serve that need. I think about, even COVID last year, and I'm so happy that at Delta, we made that the start of the journey before then because you see how disruptive, that super disruptive to the airline industry, but Delta was able to adapt very quickly and when it came to implementing new applications to fulfill the COVID government requirements, all those things, had we not taken the steps that we did and, you know, or have the framework in place to even re-architect real time, it probably would have not been as fast or successful of an adaptation. So that was a large part of prompting within the Delta environment at Twitter. However, you know, very different environment. I was so surprised, you know, going into such a very, like mature organization work using the best of the technologies that are out there for scale because the scale of Twitter is just so, it's very, very large. So it was very interesting to see how they were leveraging it in very specific ways, right, for very specific capabilities because a large part of the platform needs to scale quickly. So they were using the best of breed technologies to do just that. So those are the two things I think that prompted it within the different environments. That's really cool, actually. And now that you've adopted all kind of had to be experienced with using Cloud Native internally, could you maybe share some of the current challenges that you're facing or maybe something that you're looking along the way to solve as an roadmap item or anything like that? Yeah, so I think that one of the biggest challenges that we're currently facing within the current environment is just making sure we're continuously reducing that friction. And that's a large part of how my team came about because there is a lot of innovation that's happening at Twitter, right? We have to make sure that we are constantly rethinking about how either, you know, inputting new pieces within the SDLC could impact the delivery of value, the speed of delivery of value. So making sure that we're reducing that friction in many ways by having specific teams that are dedicated to those pieces. So having a team focused on deployment and improving that consistently and constantly, whereas a lot of companies have a team that is focused on the entire CI CD pipeline from source to deployment, right? We are focused on those individual pieces because once you get the depth of knowledge, you can then kind of iterate and understand how you can improve the different components. So I feel like that's the challenge, but we're continuing to address it in the individual team space. There's a huge breadth of range of stacks at Twitter. You know, people are using a lot of different things. So one of the challenges that I think exists is how do we make sure that we're abstracting a layer away so that when we do switch new stacks, new technologies and bring them into our environment, it's not so disruptive. It's still easy to continue to deliver and it's not something that slows teams down, whether it's for performance reasons, whether it's because, you know, there's a new better capability that we wanna start to leverage new features. It's make it as least disruptive as possible. Another thing, a challenge I think we have is just making sure that we continue to have customer feedback on the new things we implement. We're in both public and private infrastructure spaces within Twitter. So making sure that we're hearing customers and acting on that feedback, which is my job. So it's challenging because Twitter organization is huge and very opinionated, which is great, but making sure we're bringing all that together so that it's a holistic experience for everyone. Now, this is actually really cool because I'm actually looking forward to see what your predictions are for some of the themes when it comes to cloud nature technologies and if these actually fulfill the challenges or help you to solve the challenges that you currently have. Now, before I move forward with those questions, I'd like to remind everyone that if you have any questions for Jasmine, please put them in the chat of the platform of your choice that you're currently watching us, be it Twitch, YouTube, LinkedIn or Periscope. So looking forward to the questions from the audience as well. I have some two more questions on the developer experience. And one of them is, how would you define a good developer experience? And if you have any guidelines for someone who'd like to maybe improve the way they interact or collect feedback or action of feedback, do you have any guidelines around that or maybe some standards or resources you could share for everyone? Yeah, absolutely. So in my experience, a good developer experience has a few different sort of attributes. It's seamless. When I say seamless, I mean that it's very fluid and it's easy for changes to go through the process with little to no manual intervention. And some of the environments that I've worked in, it's not been a huge possibility just because of the infrastructure types we were dealing with or just the technology. So it's not always feasible to get to 100% automation or have a fully seamless, but to aim for that, I think is a great developer experience. And on that same token like automation, absolutely like automate everything that you can. All of the mundane activities that developers have to do over and over, like find ways to make it easy so that they can worry about those other problems that they have to solve daily from an architecture structuring perspective. So things like certificate, applying certificates within the environment. Very mundane activity, you have to do it yearly sometimes more often depending on your security requirements. So automating that and making it easier for developers to focus on the delivery of that value I think is a great place to be for developer experience. Another thing I think is important is to reduce the amount of waiting. So in most environments that I've worked in, there's always some component of waiting, whether it's a human you're waiting for for approval or maybe it's capacity constraints that don't allow you to move as quickly as you want from a build perspective. But making sure you have infrastructure or processes in place to make sure that people are not waiting very long periods of time because with that comes kind of context switching. So usually a person will go do something else and then come back and have to kind of get started and the momentum is sort of gone at that point. So minimal amount of waiting. And lastly, and this is probably a huge, one of my favorite and most important things I think you can do is make everything that you can self-service. Developers want to have capabilities that they can go do real time in the moment and get things done quickly. So they're all really related now that I say them and they kind of feed into each other. But I think that those are all great components of a good developer experience. As far as guidelines, I think that there's a lot of industry like companies that are doing great things for developer experience, dedicating teams like Twitter has done by hiring me and allowing me to build a team within our company. But making sure that you have a pulse on the organization. However you do that, just make sure you have a pulse. Some companies choose to do surveys. Some companies choose to make sure they're having customer advisory boards or even quarterly business reviews with leadership, just making sure that you're tapping into all levels of the organization and understanding what's important to them. What is making the most impact to their productivity and then working with them to solve that whether that's a dedicated team of engineers because the team that's doing work doesn't have time to explore the hypothesis, but just making sure that you're actioning on it. You can learn all you want, but if you're not actioning and prioritizing those customer feedback, it's all kind of, it's not a great place to be. So. I couldn't agree more to be honest. And thank you for sharing all of these good pointers. One thing that you've mentioned before and I would like maybe to expand on this, I've mentioned the documentation internally. Now, do you have any maybe advice as how can we create this asynchronous communication channel that is effective and efficient at the same time? Yeah. So by documentation channel, when just solutioning for features or defining new processes, what aspect? Actually both of them because I think when it comes to developer experience, like one of the thing is like, how do you consume a feature? So is it me going to a different person? Or is it me maybe having a wicked page internally and you'll provide all of the right information? So do you have anything in place now? Or again, do you have any guidelines on this one? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this has become very important given the distributed nature that we're all in right now. Everyone's distributed right now. But I think at Twitter especially, asynchronous communication is very important. We took the step of becoming a disparate, like globally dispersed company. So it's very high priority for us to make sure information is easy to find and also readable, right? And it actually has impact on what you're trying to do. So I think that what you can do within your organization to make this something that is helpful for your users of your features or people that are working with your tooling is making sure that as you're developing that documentation is a part of the definition of done and making sure that not only are you continuing to maintain that documentation as you iterate on the product, but also make sure that even outside of iteration on the product, go through it. Make sure that from a customer perspective, it still makes sense based on the use cases that your customers have. So use cases change all the time. People use many different tools in ways that I'm sure the creators of those tools never thought. So just always examining those different use cases and making sure you're maintaining documentation very frequently because this is a place, it's a central place and you can cause a lot of toil if it's very, it's not, there's gaps, right? You can cause a lot of toil from your end users. So just prioritizing that I think is a great thing to do within your company, yeah. I think, yeah, as you mentioned iteration is key in developing any features, but more importantly in developing and maintaining documentation as well. And we've been talking about the distributing nature, distributed nature of the teams nowadays. And I would like to ask you that currently we know that developer experience aims to improve the complete, or the overall software development life cycle. However, I'd like to ask you how it actually having a good developer experience internally, how can it impact the culture? But more importantly, can it help to build like different recruitment strategies by any chance? Absolutely, I firmly believe it, I'm probably biased, but I feel like a great developer experience can make the difference when making like an offer to a candidate, especially if you use it in sort of stages as a perspective, I'm sorry, a competitive advantage, because if you are using the latest and greatest tooling, but also have a great culture of your developers being heard, right? Those developers, their feedback being taken into account when planning future tooling decisions or even process decisions. I think it's very important for our developers to be heard. And word of mouth is so powerful within the tech community. Developers talk to other developers, right? So if someone is having a great experience and leveraging amazing tooling and are just like kicking butt on delivering features, I think that that sells itself. You want that experience, so it can kind of spread like wildfire within the community. That's really cool. Well, you've mentioned that you've developed your team internally at Twitter, so hope you get good to see the top talent within the industry as well. We're hiring, so I'll just drop that seed. We're hiring, so yeah, I will definitely be posting some new roles recently in the near future. So definitely looking for the best and brightest talent out there. That's great. Hopefully gonna get a lot of practitioners from the cloud made to applying for those as well. Now, the next one I'd like to move is of course KipCon and CloudNativeCon, North America. We just finished the KipCon and CloudNativeCon Europe, which was just two weeks ago, but now we're already looking forward to our hybrid event which is gonna happen in Los Angeles. So Jasmine has been chosen as the third co-chair for this conference, which I would like to give my biggest congratulations. I think this is absolutely amazing. And I would like to ask what are you looking most forward to doing this role, being a co-chair for KipCon? What are your feelings about this one? I was just super humbled in a felt so privileged like to even be thought of because being a part of this community, that was a win for me. Like learning from peer companies, learning from peers of different companies, like that was the win for me. But now to be able to work with the other like veteran co-chairs like Steven and Constance and learn more about the process of how this experience is shaped and how we're like fostering and nurturing the community. It's a real, real privilege. So I'm really looking forward to going from a participant and taking the gyms that are dropped and within the CFP process, right? Going through and seeing the themes there, double clicking on a lot of them to understand like a perspective of abstracts and understanding exactly how we can shape new conversations and bring about these new perspectives that a lot of presenters will bring for the conference. Outside of just having insight into the themes, I think that the community is one of the most important things in one of like near and dear to my heart as it relates to KubeCon and Count Cloud NativeCon. So being able to help people from especially nontraditional backgrounds get more involved within the Cloud Native community and understand what their perspectives are, how we can help lift them up within the community as well as connect with other end users. Like I was an end user and I was coming into this space learning a lot but highlighting other end users on their journey, companies that are doing great things and building community with them so that we can all help each other, all things that I'm looking forward to in this role. This is great actually. So currently I'm definitely looking forward to the keynotes which are going to be of course curated by the co-chairs. So I think it's going to be great. And I think the community is absolutely blessed to have someone like you as a co-chair as well. And moving towards more of the technical part of KubeCon, now that KubeCon Europe is complete, we have seen some of the underlying themes and maybe some categories of new tooling such as like Wasm or Security Edge. I think this whole is going to be there. At this stage, I know it's quite early but do you envision any new predictions or any new themes that are going to be covered during KubeCon and A or maybe some trends you've seen from your perspective as an end user and as part of the community or more involved in the community nowadays? Yeah, absolutely. So it is quite early but based on kind of what I've, the pulse like out there of what I've been hearing through the grapevine, Twitter, places like that, I think that once I go through the North America process I'll have a much better idea. But I just, I think that the new technologies, new projects like Wasm you mentioned are going to be highlighted in ways as they start to get adopted by additional end users, right? So finding new use cases and ways to apply these new technologies is what I'm most interested in learning about. And we've seen like from cloud, KubeCon EU, different ways that people are applying technologies for COVID, like utilizing Proud Native technologies to literally save the world. So it's very interesting to hear those really impactful end user stories. So I'm hoping that they start to reference some incubated projects so that way we can just learn new use cases, new ways to solve problems out there in the world using these new capabilities. Absolutely. So when you're mentioning about how can we apply cloud native technologies to real use cases, Priyanka actually had a great keynote on how can we apply this within the COVID time? So I definitely would encourage everyone to see that keynote and watch it again. I think it is done great on that one. The other thing that I wanted to focus on as well is of course, Jasmine, you are a big advocate for diversity and inclusion within the technology industry. So I'd like to kind of maybe explore your view of what do you think or where do you think the diversion inclusion stands at the moment within the cloud native ecosystem? Absolutely. So this is very important to me and I feel like at this point in life and where we are as a country in the world, diversity and inclusion is definitely a part of a lot of conversations that are happening, which is great. It's really important that there's acknowledgement of the gaps that do exist within multiple spaces, not just cloud native and tech in general. So I'm so happy that these conversations are even starting because it's been this way for a while, but now that the conversations are starting, we can start to work towards making it a better environment for everyone. So I think that we do have a long way to go, but like I mentioned, the conversation has started. I do think there are companies that are doing great things to make sure that people from underrepresented backgrounds are lifted up and enabled in ways that they weren't before, the CNCF process, like a CNCF conference process, making sure that we have allies that are working with these underrepresented folks to work on talks, making sure we have representation, but then all the talks are really great things to do. I feel like our code of conduct, the things that we do to make sure folks feel comfortable will also help make sure that we have good participation from folks from other groups too. So I think we're doing great. We have a long way to go, but it's just a continuous conversation that we have to just kind of keep top of mind. Yeah, again, I think it's one of those things that we need to keep talking and it should be at the forefront, especially now that we have more conferences and the community is growing and we have more elements which are gonna be virtual, we're gonna have hopefully some elements which are gonna be in person as well. So hopefully we're gonna be considered of all of the diversity and inclusion practices. And another question I want to ask from this point is what do you think we could do as a community to increase the engagement from these underrepresented groups? Yes, absolutely. So I think that it's important to just be there as an ally for the people that are from underrepresented groups and make sure that we're making them feel comfortable. This is a new space. It's making sure they feel comfortable contributing whether it's through the point of contributing. So even some of the projects, if a person does not have a traditional background that it may be a little daunting to kind of hop into open source contribution. So there's someone who's interested in doing that, support them in that process and use it as like a mentoring opportunity. I think that there's a lot of great leaders within the cognitive community that we have and using everything you know to lift someone else up is such a great thing to do. It's just really, really great thing to do. So I think that that's one thing we can do to really start to increase engagement and pull people in to our fantastic world that we've created, yeah. I could agree more. One thing that I want to mention here is that we have the diversity scholarships that you can apply for if you'd like to attend KubeCon. So if you're a part of these underrepresented groups you'll be able to join the conference. We're gonna give you a... Well, CNCF is gonna give you a ticket. And what I want to mention here is that that was my first experience how I got into the community. I got to go to KubeCon in Seattle. That was in 2018, sounds like eight years ago. But that was one of the... Still personally for me was one of the best KubeCons ever. It was in Seattle. I'd remember the keynote stage and of course we had at the time Kelsey Hightower giving a killer keynote. So for me, that was when I got the kind of the maximum proximity to the community. And I couldn't be delighted more. And that's why I stayed since that KubeCon I'm still part of the community now. So I would encourage everyone to do the first step. And again, we have the diversity scholarships for KubeCon and make sure to apply for them as well. And the last series of questions that I have are around the end user experience. Since we've been working for organizations such as Delta Airlines and Twitter and both of them are end user organizations which means they use cloud native tools but they don't sell it. So vendor neutrality, the true practitioners we have this firsthand experience of adopting and integrating tools. So could you please share maybe from an end user perspective what was your experience being part of this community and how do you make the best use of your maybe end user stages if I could say so? Yeah, it's a great status to have. And I'm so happy like we're highlighting end users because there's a lot of value in using cloud native technologies within large companies and solving problems, unique problems. So my experience started a little like different than yours Katie. So I actually got thrusted into the cloud native world by being a part of Delta in my company which isn't the case for most folks. So that's why it's so great that CNCF has scholarships to encourage other folks who don't have that opportunity to be a part of this great world. So during my time at Delta, I'm not even sure that the end user sort of term or status was a thing but there was just always great stories, always great stories of how companies were applying Kubernetes, different type of capabilities, messaging capabilities to really level up the value that they were delivering to their external customers. And at the time, we were very early in our cloud native journey and one of the main focuses that I had was we cannot reinvent the wheel, right? One, I didn't have the people to really sort of like develop all of these things internally. So we tried to do it any great thing that we tried to take as much as we can, right? And then form it up into a solution for our purpose. So my experience was just focusing on those stories and learnings and it made getting started with cloud native a lot easier because we didn't have to go through the sort of the toil and like the failures that other folks went into. Like it was a very transparent conversation. People talked about where they went wrong and how they would improve it if they could go back and do it. And we took those tidbits and formed up our own journey. Another aspect of being an end user is that, a lot of times, we do leverage vendor tools. So they were part of the conversation too, which was really great. They wanted us to be great as well. So we were supported in that aspect as too. So it was a really great experience. I'm happy to still be in the end user sort of status at Twitter, although it's from like just a different like side of things. But it's just a great community to build relationships and be able to talk transparently about your challenges sort of like a support group. But we talk about how we can get past those things. We don't just dwell on the failures. This is great. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with the end users. I think the experience is so important, but I would like them to show more of how they use these tools. So again, hopefully we're gonna see more of these stories in our future events as well. And one of the last questions I have for you is, again, how can we contribute back? So from your perspective, how as an end user organizations is the best way to contribute to the wider cloud and different scale? Absolutely. As an end user, I feel that I've taken a lot of stories, a lot of just information from the community. And it's important to give back, right? It's the reciprocal relationship. If you're using and you're learning from others within the community, share your learnings. How are you applying what they are putting out there? How is it working for you? Having those transparent conversations, you can do that by way of submitting to CFPs. The KubeCon North America one just closed, but there's ones coming soon after, so that you can tell that story. And we are really focused on highlighting end user stories because there's so much, there's jewels within all stories. Articles, I know that the CNCF supports like articles writing about the different, really just journeys and steps that companies are taking to reach the cloud native and implement it within their organization. So working with like partners from the CNCF. So you have to do that, participating in streams like this are all great ways to tell your story. Another component I think that's very important is if you're leveraging CNCF projects heavily internally, how can you operationalize giving back to that open source project? Making sure that if you are building on the open source component with internally, why not contribute that information back? It could be solving a problem for another end user out there because we heavily rely on open source to build value for our external customers. So giving back and giving another company a hand up is a really great way to get involved as well. Well, that was truly inspirational fantastic answer I would say. I would like, I would encourage everyone to take these these advices. So pretty much this are all of the questions and topics we wanted to cover today. Do you have maybe any last remarks in regards to the upcoming KubeCon or maybe would like to highlight some of the resources that you'd like to share with the wider audience? Anything? Yeah, absolutely. I would just encourage everyone to register for KubeCon North America. It's our first hopefully hybrid event fingers crossed that in LA we can all see each other. I'm just talking to Katie earlier. I'm very excited to get back to interacting with folks and sharing all of those gems that we talked about especially from the end user side of things. So the website is KubeCon North America. You can register there. Other things just be a part of the community. We're on Slack, we're in a lot of different places. So this is not just something that we're doing once a year. The community is always there and ready to share and really bring people in. From the diversity and inclusion perspective, I'm always open to help people form up CFPs for future conferences. If you're needed help, really like honing in on your topic. I'm so happy to share and make sure that everyone feels confident in submitting to tell their story on the cloud native con and KubeCon stage. So those are the things that I wanted to mention. But yeah, and just thank you, Katie for having me today. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for being the guest for the end user launch streams. I think it's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much for all of your input as well. And personally, I'm definitely looking forward to the hybrid KubeCon North America so we can actually have a coffee in the hallway. So with this, I'd like to thank all everyone who joined us for the latest episode of cloud native end user launch. It was great to have you Jasmine and especially talking about how the developer experience can be elevated to using cloud native tools. We will try to bring, as a reminder, we'll try to bring the streams every first Thursday of the month at 9AMPT. So please join us in June. We're gonna have Paratis AI as the next guest. And as mentioned, don't forget to join us for KubeCon and cloud native hybrid North America, which is gonna happen in October 12th to 15th and where we can hear the latest stories from our end user community. And another thing that I'd like to mention, we've recently redesigned our end user page, which you can see popped up here, which is cncf.io for a slash end user. And you'll be able to find all of the latest case studies around our end user organizations and all of the benefits of being part of our community. And with that, thank you Jasmine again for joining us and I hope to see you in the future streams as well. Thank you.