 The next item of business is a debate on motion 12169 in the name of Joan McAlpine on Erasmus Plus. I call on Joan McAlpine to speak to and move the motion on behalf of the Culture, Tourism Europe and External Relations Committee, and I would ask everyone who wants to speak in the debate to press the request to speak buttons. Up to 12 minutes, please, Ms McAlpine. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. It's with great pleasure that I open the debate this afternoon on the Culture, Tourism Europe and External Relations Committee's report on Erasmus Plus. The committee took evidence on this inquiry from a number of individuals and stakeholders to whom we are very grateful. I'm delighted that many of them have been able to make it along today and I would like to welcome them all to the Parliament. This piece of work all started with a visit to the Jack Kane Centre in Craigmiller as part of our business planning day last August. On our visit, we met with young people and volunteers who told us what the Erasmus Plus programme means to them. I would like to welcome Scott, Kim, Cameron, Shannon, Dale and Emma from the Jack Kane Centre to join us in the chamber today. I'd also like to thank our clerks, who did such a great job of putting the report together and supervising the inquiry for us. Many of us here are already familiar with aspects of the Erasmus Plus programme. It is perhaps most well-known for the role that it plays in facilitating university student exchange programmes in Europe and beyond. Some of the committee's members have themselves participated in the programme and I am sure that they want to share their experience as part of this debate. I think that the committee will agree with me that we were all very surprised and inspired to learn about the full breadth of activities that the programme supports. Our report highlights just how broad the programme is and the extent to which it supports invaluable work across so many sectors in Scotland. For example, we heard evidence from Youth Link Scotland about how important the programme is to the voluntary and youth work sectors. I am delighted that Youth Link Scotland is represented here today to watch this debate. The voluntary and youth work sectors play an important role in supporting our young people in wider communities. For example, I have visited Loch Ather, a sheltered community in Beeswing near Dumfries, which is run by the Camp Hill Scotland in my constituency region. Membership of the EU, which supports programmes such as the European Voluntary Service and Erasmus Plus, has enabled young people from European countries to live and work on a voluntary basis beside people with learning disabilities for whom Camp Hill is their home. Young Europeans make up 68 per cent of Camp Hill's volunteers. Those young volunteers are qualified in social work, occupational therapy or special needs education. EU programmes such as Erasmus Plus therefore provide young people with valuable life experience while also enabling invaluable support and services to be provided. Without programmes such as Erasmus Plus, many voluntary organisations which are often reliant on the goodwill of volunteers and small teams of dedicated staff may struggle in the long term to sustain the services that they provide. We also took evidence from the chair of the university council for modern languages in Scotland. She told us that Erasmus Plus plays a vital role in supporting the one plus two languages policy in Scotland, and that it is also a vital source of support and funding for the professional development of our foreign language teachers. Some of the most striking evidence that we heard was from the college sector. We were told how West Lothian College has used Erasmus Plus to develop a award-winning programme that was genuinely life changing for the students who participated in it. We heard how the programme enables students who have never previously travelled abroad to study Cucarine France, Instruction in Spain, hairdressing in Portugal. One observation in particular will stick with me from the evidence that we heard. This was the Erasmus Plus inspired students to look beyond Friday and into their future lives. Another clear message from stakeholders was that Erasmus Plus is more than simply a source of funding for these amazing projects. It also provides an important framework that enables organisations such as YouthLink, Link Scotland and West Lothian College to build networks with partner organisations overseas. This international co-operation not only helps the students who participate in the exchanges, it also offers new opportunities to the staff who support them, and it helps at an organisational level to share best practice and put Scottish institutions on an international stage. Those illustrations hopefully highlight to you why the committee very quickly reacted and reached the strong conclusion that this programme is too valuable to lose. That is why the committee has set out a number of clear recommendations for the Scottish and UK Government. To summarise our conclusions very briefly, the committee is calling for three main points of action. The UK should continue participating in the programme until the end of the current multi-annual financial framework in 2020. The UK should seek to continue participating in the next refresh of the programme, which will start in 2021, and it should seek to retain full entitlements as a programme country. I will say a little bit more about that distinction later on. If the UK Government is not able to secure continuing programme participation, we are calling on the Scottish Government to consider how it might be possible for Scotland to continue full participation in the programme after 2020. In making that recommendation, we highlight the existing institutional structures that could support such as Scotland's devolved competency over education and the existing support that is available from the British Council Scotland. The UK Government has stated its commitment to full participation in the Erasmus Plus programme up until withdrawal. In a letter, it has told the committee that the UK and EU have agreed in principle that the UK will continue to benefit from all EU programmes until the end of the current budget period. This outcome has also been welcomed by the Scottish Government in its response to the committee, and I am sure that I speak for the committee in welcoming the particular outcomes in the negotiations so far. The UK notes, however, that no decisions have been made about the post 2020 programme participation since the scope of the programme has not yet been agreed. The Scottish Government notes in its response that it is deeply concerned that the details of successor arrangements have yet to be proposed by the UK Government. What is important to highlight in this debate is the difference between partner membership of Erasmus Plus and programme membership. As an EU member state, the EU is able to participate in the full breadth of activities as a programme country. The committee is concerned that after Brexit, the UK might be relegated to participating in the programme as a partner country. That would mean that we could not participate in the sport elements of Erasmus Plus, and some stakeholders, such as West Lothian College, told us that their international partners might not be able to continue working with them in the same way if the UK does not maintain its full programme status beyond 2020. Although the negotiations remain on-going, we need to look beyond withdrawal and not lose sight of planning that is already under way to shape the future of Erasmus Plus after 2020. It is vital that Scotland's voice is not lost at this crucial point so that we can help to shape the future of the programme and remain fully committed as a programme participant well into the future. We note that the British Council is engaging in those discussions at the moment, and I understand that it is represented in the public gallery today, and I thank them for their involvement in our inquiry. I hope that we will be able to debate this afternoon how the Scottish Government can seek to influence the UK's negotiating position for the next programme period, particularly the UK's ability to continue participating in Erasmus Plus with the full rights and entitlements of a programme country. I welcome the debate this afternoon, and I look forward to hear all Members' contributions. I thank Joan McAlpine and the committee for tabling the motion for debate today, and I welcome the Jackane Centre to Parliament, too. I commend the committee for tourism, Europe and external relations for their work in investigating the value of Erasmus Plus in Scotland and the potential impact that Scotland would lose access to the programme following the UK's withdrawal from the EU. The Scottish Government has a long association with Erasmus. It does matter hugely to us. Indeed, it was our own Madame Eccos when Ewing, when she was an MEP who worked with others to set up the original scheme some 30 years ago now. Since then, it has grown from strength to strength. The committee's report rightly highlights the success of Scottish organisations in securing funding for Erasmus Plus projects. Scotland has traditionally performed very well in Erasmus, securing around 12 per cent of UK funding in the first years of the current programme, and more than 60 million euros were secured for projects in Scotland between 2014 and 2017. That funding is extremely valuable. It is the most significant international exchange and mobility programme available in Scotland by some field. It is much more than that. However, it is about the education and youth organisations and the impact that it has on the individuals involved. The greatest value of Erasmus Plus is the experience that it provides for people across Scotland, as Joan McAlpine has mentioned, expanding their horizons, developing their skills and giving them the ambition and the confidence that they need to thrive in a globalised world. The ability to spend time overseas and working with others in different countries can transform a person's life. In our whole, community benefits from hosting those who come to Scotland and share with us their own culture and perspective of the world. The evidence taken by the committee in its recent inquiry bears this out in matches where I have heard in my own conversations with staff and students in schools, in colleges, universities and in community groups across the country. Although Erasmus Plus began as a programme focused on mobility in higher education, its expansion over the past 30 years has brought considerable benefits to other sectors. Within schools, for example, Erasmus Plus funding makes a significant contribution to the implementation of the 1 plus 2 language learning policy. It provides existing language teachers with opportunities to maintain and refresh their language capability through visits to other countries. It supports teachers through their qualification by funding the compulsory year abroad, which is required for the registration of language teachers in Scotland. Both of those enhance the language learning experiences of our young people at school and are essential to the success of our language policy. They are vital in equipping our young people with the skills and competencies that they need in an increasingly globalised world. Erasmus Plus benefits also the young people beyond education system as well. I warmly welcome the decision to include youth programmes within Erasmus Plus from 2014. It is often those people who are furthest away from higher education who benefit the most from the opportunity to study or work overseas. Exchanges like those bring an international perspective to the heart of our most deprived communities. It gives everyone the opportunity to learn about other cultures, languages and world views. That enriches the learning experience for people of all ages and opens them up to the possibilities of their own potential. For young people who are experiencing socio-economic deprivation in particular, international mobility is often a distant option. The evidence given to the committee included very powerful examples of how participation in European projects can increase young people's commitment against discrimination, their interests in political life, their respect for and appreciation of cultural diversity and the readiness to work and live abroad. This aspect of broadening participation in mobility and exchange opportunities is one that we wholeheartedly support. I am encouraged by the commission's proposal to double the budget for Erasmus Plus in the next multi-annual financial framework from 2021 to 2027. By the commissioners' comments in November last year that said that the EU needs to keep working to open up the programme, extending opportunities for schools and stepping up our efforts to attract the most vulnerable members of our society, people with disadvantaged backgrounds and special needs. It seems that Erasmus Plus is likely to continue to develop in ways that will bring even greater benefits to Scotland in the future, but those benefits are put at risk by the prospect of the UK's withdrawal from the European Union. Since the EU referendum, the Scottish Government has worked closely with stakeholders across Scotland to understand the potential effect of the UK's withdrawal from the EU. Brexit has created terrible uncertainty for organisations that rely on programmes such as Erasmus Plus to sustain international partnerships. That has been compounded by concern at the lack of clarity from the UK Government over its intentions for the future relationship with the EU. This Government's view is that the best way to retain the benefits of Erasmus Plus as well as access to a host of other initiatives, policies and funding programmes is to remain a member of the European Union. Short of that taking place, the UK needs to secure the closest relationship with the EU, including membership of the single markets and customs union. In terms of Erasmus Plus, we welcome the Prime Minister's comment in her speech in Florence on 22 September 2017 that the UK Government hopes to continue to take part in those specific policies and programmes that are greatly to the UK and the EU's joint advantage, such as those that promote science, education and culture. However, we remain concerned that there has been no further detail or public comment to secure access to Erasmus Plus. The Scottish Government continues to encourage the UK Government to provide clarity to those organisations whose planning for future activity depends on knowing what the UK's future relationship with Erasmus Plus will be. Although the statement in the joint report on phase 1 of the negotiations that the UK will continue to participate in EU programmes to the end of the current multi-annual financial framework in 2020 is welcome, the UK Government needs to confirm its intentions to continue to access Erasmus Plus as a matter of urgency. Brian Whittle, could you start again, please, Mr Whittle? Your mic wasn't on. I wonder if she's aware today in Prime Minister's questions when asked directly about this question that the Prime Minister stated her intention for the UK to stay within Erasmus Plus for the for-going future. I didn't hear Prime Minister's questions. I was out on a ministerial visit celebrating the Scottish Government's support for elite athletes, which I hope that Brian Whittle would commend on another day. However, I would say to that that Erasmus Plus desire from the Prime Minister is welcome. What we have seen from other discussions that are going on is that we cannot separate Erasmus Plus from freedom of movement. We cannot separate Erasmus Plus from freedom of movement from other aspects such as this and the horizon 2020. If the Prime Minister gave a discussion or an answer about freedom of movement at the same time, that would be perhaps more valuable to the stakeholders that the Scottish Government is discussing. In conclusion, we are an outward-looking nation, we are an inclusive nation and has benefited greatly from the access to the wide range of EU programmes. The lives of thousands of students, teachers, school children, volunteers and many others across Scotland have been transformed by Erasmus Plus over the past 30 years, and we want that to continue. Programmes such as Erasmus Plus have been enormously beneficial for the lives of thousands of people in Scotland, helping to develop their skills, study and volunteer abroad and make close personal relationships with people from other countries and cultures. I only welcome the committee's report and acknowledge its recommendations. We will continue to work with our partners across Scotland towards securing our future commitment to Erasmus Plus. I thank those who gave evidence to the committee and welcome those who are involved in Erasmus to the gallery today. When students think of Erasmus, they think of the valuable exchange programme that allows them to experience new culture, country, city and language, not the 16th century philosopher, Dysadirius Erasmus, whose name encompasses the benefits of travelling and sharing ideas that the scheme promotes. At this point, I would also like to take an opportunity to thank the clerks for their work on this report and put on record that my colleague Jackson Carlaw and I supported the conclusions of the committee report. The Scottish Conservatives also agree that we want to see Erasmus Plus continued after Brexit. As things stand presently, the UK will continue to benefit from all educational programmes until the end of 2020. In a letter to the convener from the Department for Exiting the European Union, Steve Baker MP stated that the UK Government "...see future co-operation in education programmes as an area of mutual benefit to both the UK and the EU, provided that we can agree a fair, on-going contribution." Involvement in Erasmus Plus has been a notable success. That translates into better job prospects for those who are fortunate enough to go on to one of these Erasmus programmes. The European Commission's impact study found that Erasmus students have better employability skills than 70 per cent of all students, and the unemployment rate is 23 per cent lower for those who participate. That may be because 64 per cent of employers consider international experience a positive and 92 per cent look for transferable skills in recruitment. The programme therefore goes beyond that fruitful and memorable year and will positively impact on the rest of the student's life. As Mike Russell noted in his letter to the committee, that in 2017 Scotland received its highest ever allocation of Erasmus Plus funding, nearly £21 million was awarded compared to £16 million in the previous year, benefiting 159 organisations in higher adult education, schools, youth and vocational education and training sectors. Some of those beneficiaries were from my constituency, St Boswell's primary school, which received £2,000 to support the professional development of the school's modern languages co-ordinator in Spanish. Newcastleton primary school, Broomlands primary school and Now Park primary school received funding for French language immersion courses for staff members. That is what we heard from YouthLink during our evidence session, that the training part of it is really important and that is what enhances a lot of the programme's benefits. The funding will play a crucial role in the development of students and teachers. As I said, YouthLink found that young people with fewer opportunities participate in the painting in Erasmus Plus. The report has significantly higher effect compared with well-off young people. What is great is that it is open to everyone and students are supported for their travel and subsistence costs, depending on need. The committee recognised that funding in its report and indeed we all on the committee recognise the excellent work that is being done by Scottish institutions and organisations to use Erasmus Plus funding to raise attainment. Another benefit of Erasmus that YouthLink found was that participation in European projects, increase young people's commitment against discrimination, increase interest in political life, increase respect for and appreciation of cultural diversity. It also increases readiness to work and to live abroad. That is another positive benefit that comes from participation in the programme and another reason why I am pleased that the UK Government is open to continuing that participation. Clearly, Erasmus, as we have heard today, plays an important role in the whole of the UK. I welcome the Prime Minister and the UK Government's continued commitment to retain full participation until we have left the UK. We also focus on the UK Government's to secure participation in this area after we have left the UK. I will give way to the minister. I think that the member left the EU there. I welcome what she says about the benefits of Erasmus and the comments of the Prime Minister regarding that. Will the member agree, however, that, as I stand at present, it is quite difficult to see how Erasmus could function fully without the benefits that come from the freedom of movement of people? There are countries that are non-European members and they pay into the scheme. We have Macedonia, Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein and Turkey. There are ways that we can use negotiations to perhaps pay into the Erasmus scheme. Obviously, Switzerland had a bit of a blip and they set up a European mobility programme. That was because of the issues that they had with free movement of people. Where there is a will, there is a way. I think that it is possible, particularly with the good work that the British Council is doing. I want to talk a little bit about the benefits that College of Scotland reports. 1,600 Scots go abroad to European countries with Erasmus Plus every year. The number of students taking opportunities for outward mobility has doubled over the past seven years. I do not think that there is any doubt that we all agree that it is a fantastic programme. I have taken the intervention, so I will not read my paragraph about how I think it could be possible. You have time if it is not too long a paragraph. I would be repeating myself, and that would be slightly boring to listeners. If a way cannot be found, I am sure that we can find a way, as I have said. We all share the will for Erasmus to be continued. The Scottish Conservatives are open to exploring whether Scotland could participate in the programme by itself, even a sentiment that is shared by the University of Scotland, Colleges Scotland and, of course, agreed by the committee. Erasmus Plus benefits students and teachers and creates opportunities that are enjoyed for a lifetime. It helps to close the attainment gap. We know that, it increases employability prospects and that is all good and helps to fight discrimination and increases political engagement. For those reasons and many more, we here on the Scottish Conservative benches are committed to Erasmus Plus and Scotland's future participation in the programme. Thank you very much. I mean, there is a hint there. There is time in hand, so it is a generous seven minutes, Mr Gray. I am sure that we can use them. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. For reasons that will become clear later on, I want to start by drawing attention to my entry in the register of interests as chair of the Hepburnian Community Foundation. I think that this debate is an interesting one because, in some ways, it rather illustrates that old canard sometimes you do not know what you have got until you lose it. I want to congratulate the committee for undertaking this particular report at a very important time. If I am honest, although I have been aware of Erasmus for a long time, I have always had a sense, and I do not know where it came from, that Scotland was not particularly good at using the opportunities that Erasmus presents. If it is one thing, the committee's report and the evidence that it has taken has demonstrated that I was completely wrong at that and, in fact, Scotland has certainly, in recent years, become very good at seizing the opportunities which the programme provides. In 2015, for example, the University of Scotland told us some 2,000 students at higher education institutions took up Erasmus funded study abroad, and that was a 35 per cent increase on the year before. In 2017, all the programmes added together in Scotland added up to 21 million euros, and that was up from only 16 a year before. If we look at Erasmus funded joint masters degrees, the UK is in the top three in Europe, and 85 per cent of those programmes are led by Scottish universities. Indeed, University Scotland and their briefing for today tell us that 9.7 per cent of Scottish students study abroad, as opposed to just under 7 per cent in England. The truth is that we are beginning to seize the opportunities of Erasmus, and it is very unfortunate that we do that just at the point as we might lose them. I say as gently as possible to Rachael Hamilton. She may hope that we can continue with the benefits of Erasmus, and we are all agreed that better job prospects support for education and training opportunity for those from disadvantaged backgrounds, but there is no doubt that those opportunities are jeopardised by the uncertainty of the whole Brexit process. The other thing that I learned from the work of the committee was something that Ms McAlpine referred to, and that is the bread of the Erasmus programme. It is certainly not just about languages, but language study. Indeed, my own nephew, who studied at Napier as a civil engineer, spent a year studying in the Netherlands in a multinational course where he was able to learn about aspects of engineering such as irrigation work, which is much more difficult to get practical experience of here, and he benefited significantly. However, it is important about languages to do that, and that is important for us now, especially when just recently we heard that the number of students succeeding at national 4 and 5 level in modern languages in our schools has halved in the past 10 years. Not just language students that are supported by Erasmus, but in my constituency, I know teachers from law and Dumbart primary schools have been able to take opportunities to improve their language skills as part of the 1 plus 2 programme that the minister referred to. It is also not just about academic study, and this is where I come to the Hibbs community foundation. As part of our community football programme, one of the things that we do is look after Hibbs girls and ladies. That is a first team that we have built into arguably the best among the top two women's football teams in Scotland. If anybody doubts that, they are playing down the road, the 745 Eastern road tonight, playing Hamilton. Anyone who is at a loose end, you will not be sorry or disappointed. Behind that, we have gone to Great Lens to build a very strong girls academy, which is about providing sporting opportunities for girls and young women from the age of around five, allowing them to participate in sport, in teamwork, to learn about health and fitness and sports science and to build their confidence, leadership skills and perhaps become coaches themselves. One of the latest ventures that we have just undertaken is exactly an Erasmus-funded programme in which 25 to 30 of those involved in Hibbs girls and ladies will travel to Spain, to the Aliva Nova complex just outside Valencia, for a very intensive programme. Learning from some of those other European countries where women's participation in football is significantly more advanced and the facilities and the science around the sport is much more advanced than it is here in Scotland. It is worth noting that the University of Scotland made this point in the briefing that it produced for us today, that Erasmus is not just about outwards travel, which is studied by Scottish students overseas. It also brings a lot of overseas students into Scotland, which enhances our university community and makes it a never more vibrant and global community, and that is an important element of the programme, too. I said that there is a small element of tragedy in discovering how important all this is in seizing those opportunities, just as there is the danger that we might lose them. Something the minister said tells us that it is even worse than that, really, because the new opportunities opening up as the next tranche of Erasmus is developed might be even greater. The proposal is indeed to double the budget for the programme and to increase the focus on inclusivity and accessibility for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, young people with disabilities and so on. Exactly the sectors of young people here in Scotland that we all agree could benefit most from participating in the programme. It is really important that we raise our voices as the committee has helped us to do, and to make the point that we need to not just commit to Erasmus till 2020, but to find a way to commit beyond that, and indeed, as far as possible, to do that through full programme status, so that some aspects, such as the sporting aspects that I have talked about, are still available to young Scots in the future, as they have been so powerfully, and we have seen reflected in the report in the past. Thank you to the European Committee clerks and all those who submitted evidence to our inquiry, particularly to the young people at the Jack Kane Centre for hosting us in the course of our work on Erasmus. The idea of Erasmus tends to be associated with middle-class university students doing a year abroad. There are clear benefits to that, both for the individual young person, for Scotland and for Europe as a whole, but that often prevailing view of the programme is not really that accurate, as the minister highlighted in her opening remarks. I am not suggesting that university students doing a year abroad is not important, but what Erasmus does goes far, far beyond that. It funds programmes for young people from all sorts of backgrounds. In addition to working with universities, there are programmes with schools, with colleges, training providers, sports teams, as Iain Gray mentioned, and youth organisations. What that means in practice is that groups of students from places such as West Lothian College are doing courses in Sweden, France, Germany and Italy, completing SQA qualifications that link in with European qualifications on topics covering hospitality, travel and tourism, business, engineering, healthcare, sport and education. For many of the young people involved, particularly those from working-class backgrounds, experiences such as that can be life-changing and too often would not be an option without Erasmus. West Lothian College was very clear in its evidence to the committee that Erasmus programmes have a positive impact on attainment, but more importantly, those who participated have loved it. It has grown their confidence, it has created connections with other young people across our continent and has quite genuinely broadened the horizons of thousands of young people across our country. The committee had particularly valuable evidence from Youth Link, who helped youth work organisations to get involved in Erasmus Plus projects. Many of their members are small organisations that typically have a little administrative capacity of their own. Organisations such as the Jack Kane Community Centre, which works with and for young people in Craig Miller. The focus of Erasmus funding in Scotland has been on inclusion. Many of the organisations that gave evidence to the committee were keen to stress to us. Research that was noted in the committee report mentioned by other members has suggested that young people from more deprived backgrounds get more out of projects such as Erasmus Plus and that it has an extremely positive impact on their attainment. It also has a clear benefit in language education, as has been mentioned, something that we are woefully underdeveloped at across the UK compared to every other country in Europe. When students undertake a language degree at university, that often entails a year abroad, as do an increasing number of courses that are not directly related to language education. Erasmus Plus facilitates that for many universities. When language teachers in Scotland are looking to develop their skills and improve their teaching, Erasmus provides opportunities to do that. Staff exchanges allow for cross-sector collaboration and exchange. It ensures that language teachers in Scotland can enhance their skills by working directly with native speakers. When school pupils are learning languages, student exchanges give them an opportunity to truly experience the benefits of their other language, to go abroad and become immersed, not just in the language but in the culture that it comes from, which we know is the most effective way to learn. Erasmus Plus also speaks to the kind of country that we want to be. Cultural exchanges, training and learning opportunities abroad help to increase young people's appreciation of cultural diversity, opposition to division and bigotry. There is no shortage of evidence that those who experience other cultures and communities are less likely to harbour prejudice views and more likely to challenge those views. In this Parliament, we often pride ourselves on Scotland's progressive outlook, our aspirations to be an internationalist country, but those virtues need to be nurtured and supported. It is precisely programmes such as Erasmus that do that. Yet, despite all those benefits, Erasmus brings to Scotland, it is under threat. The UK Government blindly committed to hard Brexit and ending freedom of movement. We have already heard numerous times across numerous committee inquiries how much damage that will do to Scotland. If we do not act, Erasmus Plus may well be one of those casualties as well. While third countries can associate with the Erasmus programme, they must also play by the rules that have already been mentioned. When Switzerland decided to introduce immigration restrictions in 2014, its negotiations to participate in the programme were suspended. Unfortunately, all indications are that the UK Government intends to introduce immigration restrictions and end freedom of movement with the European economic area. With all the splits within its cabinet, its ability to agree in its own negotiating position and the regressive views held by the hard-right Brexiters are holding the Conservative party to hostage at present, and we cannot rely on the UK Government to do the right thing, to do the rational thing here. Brexit will not just make participation in Erasmus harder, it will make it downright impossible for those who currently benefit the most from those programmes. Its charities, colleges, schools and youth groups will find that they just cannot participate anymore. West Lothian College made that clear in its evidence, pointing out that 100 per cent of its Erasmus projects were with other countries that are part of European freedom of movement rules. While Scotland's universities, particularly elite universities, generally have the resources to navigate more complex rules and financially back exchange programmes with other countries outside of the EU and outside of Erasmus, smaller charities and colleges simply cannot afford that. Many local authorities, who support schools to do it, certainly cannot. The committee calls on the Scottish Government to do what it can to negotiate Scotland's continued participation in Erasmus Plus in the event that the UK Government is unwilling to do that. Of course I support that conclusion, but I think that we should go further than that. As I and others have called for before in this chamber, and I am sure that we will call for again repeatedly over the coming years, we really must devolve immigration powers to Scotland. Right now it is unclear what institutional frameworks could allow the continued participation of Scotland in Erasmus Plus, particularly if the UK does continue down this immensely self-destructive path of ending freedom of movement, but by devolving migration powers to Scotland. We can ensure a different path, one that allows us to continue participating in the Erasmus programme, along with all the other benefits that migration brings to Scotland. We voted to remain in the EU. We want to continue to benefit from the programmes and principles that underpin it. To, in our year of young people, be facing the effective end of one of our most successful youth projects, it is not just tragic. It is a deliberate act of generational vandalism from a Government that is wildly out of touch, and it is entirely unavoidable. Monday was one of the rare Shetland days of this time of year, a very bright day, sparkling sea, the sun shone on the waves. I stood in the Kirkyard in Olybury, a crofting community in the very far north of Shetland, at one of the most difficult funerals that I have ever been to in my adult life. I watched a family bury a daughter, a mum, a sister and someone who was just a huge part of that community. It made me think of this debate because one of the things Lizzie did in her professional life was work in the Shetland part of Erasmus, in the Shetland part of the global classroom. I want today just to reflect and absolutely respect those who make and have made the Erasmus project work, certainly in my part of the world. People like Lizzie are the reason that so many young Shetlanders were able to travel around the world and meet people from their peers, but people from different parts of this globe. I also want to reflect that it seems a long time ago now, but when I worked in the House of Commons to Jim Wallace, I spent four days, or it felt like four days, it probably wasn't four days, outside a then Soviet embassy trying to sort out the visas so that a Shetland school, the Anderson High School, could travel to Eastern Europe to meet their peers from a community called SLIN in the then Czechoslovakia. That was then our take at the global classroom and how it has moved forward. For all the people around Scotland, but in this context in Shetland who have worked so hard to make sure that youngsters can meet and see and find out about the world around them, I just want to say thank you. In that sense, Erasmus has been enormously important. As Ian Gray rightly said, I can't imagine why we'd ever want to get rid of such a programme that is so effective in building those kinds of links. Of course, it's quite important to remember that EU membership is not actually a prerequisite of participation in this because schools in Norway, Iceland and Turkey also are part of Erasmus, but that's what makes it all the stronger, particularly if you are part of islands that are in the northern North Sea. My community has done very well. I think that we've invested strongly in it. We've built it and we've worked with it. A mention was made earlier on rightly of the British Council. I want to thank them and many others for allowing that to happen, but two or three just very brief examples. In November 2017, Shetland got a batch of funding to allow four Shetland schools to improve languages. The very point that Ross Greer was very rightly making—about €60,000, if I remember rightly—in a multilingual world to help our global position. The point that the initiators of that particular programme made was that it would help our position and help teachers and pupils in our position post Brexit, which was both a positive way to look at it and, for me, intensely sad as a European. Erasmus Plus funding has made it possible for Shetland to also host global classroom events. We had one particularly splendid one back in 2015, where again schools and representatives from all over Europe came to the island, so it was an exciting moment at Aberdeen Airport, where again we had to make some fast phone calls to get some Turkish young people through immigration. However, I would like to thank all those officials of that time who listened to my pleas to allow them through, and they got to Shetland later that day. Bray High School in particular—again, up in the north of Shetland, Bray High is next to Sloan and Voice in the delting area of Shetland. It is very much the oil industry school, I suppose that I can loosely describe it. Welcome pupils from Turkey, Norway, Latvia and Sardinia as part of that cultural exchange between communities on the edge of Europe. I recall a European commissioner many years ago when I was doing a ministerial job telling me that you were on the periphery of Europe, and then he looked at me again, and there was a map of Europe on his wall in the Berlin Wall. Actually, once the Shetland was in the right place in the map, but the map in the Berlin Wall turned to me and said, Mr Scott, you are not on the periphery of Europe, you are on the periphery of the periphery. That is what Erasmus has meant to us. It has meant bringing schools and bringing young people from the periphery of the periphery. We then sent our youngsters to those schools, and they spent a week-in in different parts of Europe, Turkey, Norway, Latvia and Sardinia. A trip went as well in Norway where we regularly visit. All to learn about cultures, learn about the economy, learn about how young people do things and do things differently, and of course all the parallels as well. The more recent initiatives involving the Mid-Dale junior high school, one of our islands to the north of the mainland of Shetland, have been working closely through Erasmus Plus on a project called Treasure with a school from Spain involving the sharing of traditions and, indeed, of cultures. We have hosted 25 Erasmus ambassadors in over the years, and ours have, in that sense, travelled to different parts of Europe as well. I want to very much endorse the recommendations that the convener of the committee spoke to some minutes ago. I also want to very much endorse Ross Greer's points about the wider impact of Erasmus and why it is important. I also saw, as Brian Whittle mentioned earlier on, the Prime Minister—I was just lucky enough to have the telly on it, I guess—to watch the Prime Minister giving that answer earlier on. If I was our ministerial team here, I would just drive right into that one. She gave the kind of answer that would allow some wiggle room, as we say in politics, so I would seek to take advantage of that. I am not going to make another Brexit speech, we had that yesterday and I couldn't cope with another. Jackson, Carl or wind up. So, let me make just one observation to conclude these very brief remarks. Most young people, including my own kids, are European. They just kind of want to stay that way. Thank you very much. Open debate, Stuart McMillan, followed by Oliver Mundell. Mr McMillan, please. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. First of all, I want to agree with the comments made by the committee convener earlier regarding everyone who has provided evidence to the committee and not everyone who has assisted. Also at the outset, I want to support and hold support this debate in the contents of our committee's report. I urge the chamber to support the report and also its conclusions and the recommendations that the Erasmus Plus scheme is not a European status symbol to be dismantled with Brexit. It is a life-changing opportunity that broadens horizons, opens minds and creates employment opportunities. Now, what is not to like about that? As members will know that the committee heard a lot of evidence in relation to the Erasmus Plus programme that we heard from educators, learners, managers and professionals in the sector, from schools, youth groups, organisations and business. Certainly, the Jack Kane Centre and everyone who was involved that day, the folk who are in the gallery, I think that the way they actually provided their evidence and their assistance certainly was a novel way to educate the politicians. I have a personal connection to the programme in that, like others who are no doubt in the chamber, I benefited from the Erasmus programme. I remember for them a time of studying in France, Germany and also in Sweden. It was a life-changing experience for me. I will come back to it shortly, but I will gently give some comments to Ross Greer. Ross Greer spoke about the middle-class background. I grew up in Port Glasgow. It is not exactly the middle-class background. I would encourage you to go and visit other parts of the west of Scotland region and go to Easton-Bartonshire so that you can learn about other aspects of the region. When Erasmus Plus was first launched in 1987, there were just 3,244 students in that first year by 2014. Over 3 million Europeans had studied through Erasmus and now Erasmus Plus. It hopes to add a further 2 million changed lives to that statistic by 2020. In Scotland alone, there were 6,190 participants in 2016 up from the 4,975 the year before. Erasmus had a budget of more than €14.7 billion last year, with 21 million received for Scottish programmes up from 16 million in the year before, with 159 organisations in Scotland involved in Erasmus Plus. The programme not only allows for student mobility across Europe and beyond, but also supports staff and projects to promote excellence in teaching and research, building upon the best practice in elsewhere and also helps to foster democracy itself across the European Union, promoting discussions between learners and also leaders. The programme also encourages sports development and the Gionmonia projects that promote the study of the European Union across the world. In the committee, we heard from Youth Link Scotland that Erasmus contributes to achieving many of the frameworks that we have here in Scotland, such as the curriculum for excellence. We also heard that 70 per cent of UK companies believe that intercultural skills to be very important. We also heard from the British Council Scotland about the benefits of Erasmus as a soft power to grow the reputation of Scotland's excellent and well-regarded education system, but it affects not just our education sector. Jackie Colleen of the British Council Scotland stated at paragraph 64 of the report, that the fact that people have had a positive experience when they come here creates an ongoing positive association with Scotland throughout their careers and stressed that it helps bills and interests elsewhere to do business in Scotland. I welcome the UK Government's commitment to continue full involvement in Erasmus Plus until the UK leaves the EU, including underwriting the successful bids. However, despite the commitment from the Prime Minister today, Prime Minister's questions, there is still no commitment post the time when we leave the European Union. Does that mean that, on the stroke of midnight on 31 December 2020, Erasmus and Scotland will end? That would be a disaster and a victory for small-minded narrow nationalists who cannot accept that the EU actually does some good. The DEXU does not include Erasmus in their higher education sectoral report nor is there analysis of the value of the programme that brings to the aisles in areas such as youth work or the voluntary sector. We have heard from stakeholders that the uncertainty has already caused problems. Daniel Evans from the West Lothian College said that they are in the middle of a two-year programme that ends in 2019. Normally, they would not need to apply again, but they are having to do so now to guarantee access for 2019-20. That means a lot of extra work that was not planned for. It is a strain on us. This is the very last thing that our educational establishments need to do right now. Programme access is a right for all EU members, and EU members can negotiate membership, but that requires bilateral agreement with the EU. Outside of those terms, Scotland might be limited to being a partner country, like Switzerland currently is. We heard in the committee about the so-called Swiss model that Rachael Hamilton touched upon earlier. That status meant that its learners and educators were not able to fully participate and they were lost out. We also heard that they did not want to remain in the situation for too long and that they wanted to come back to full programme member status. Members will be aware that Switzerland is in this position because of the restriction on the EU freedom of movement, and the UK Government's continued lack of clarity over freedom of movement may well then affect our possible future Erasmus relationship. In paragraph 78, we quote Marion Spuring, who is the chair of the University of Council for Modern Languages in Scotland, and her colleague Dr Joe Carson is in the public gallery. Marion Spuring said, if we do not have freedom of movement, it would be a disaster for academic and social reasons for the internationalisation of the country and for the experiences of our students, staff and our research. I absolutely agree. Earlier in the report, in paragraph 33, we quoted Marion Spuring again, when she was explaining how important the studying of languages actually is. Free movement is key for Erasmus mobility. Of learners and educators is indeed of the fundamental underpinnings of the scheme. My Erasmus journey started in 1993 when I started university, as well as having the time of my life and many of life experiences I will cherish forever. A few other things happened in preparation for this debate. I counted up actually all the nationalities of people that I met. I met 20 when I was going through my degree, and when I was doing my masters, there were 11 of us in the class of which there were 10 different national backgrounds, including Guadeloupe, South Korea and Arsenteiner. Nobody can tell me that the Erasmus Plus scheme or its predecessor programmes don't matter, they do matter. They changed lives, they opened opportunities for many people, and like me, and who came from locations where employment opportunities were not a plenty. I care about educating future generations and I care about the learning of languages, and that's another reason why Erasmus Plus matters. I urge the UK Government to open their eyes to this wonderful programme, grasp the opportunity to remain in Erasmus Plus and help future generations to become even better citizens. Thank you, Mr McMillan. I think that people are wondering what your wonderful experiences were, but we're going to hear about that some other time, perhaps, Mr Carlaw. I call Oliver Mundell, if he's followed by Graeme Dey. As members comment, I don't have any wonderful experiences, at least from the Erasmus Plus scheme. In all seriousness, I'm very pleased to be speaking in this important debate. Although I'm not a member of the committee, I want to put on record my thanks to committee members and all those who contributed to the report, including young people, in the gallery today. As members will be aware, I voted to leave the European Union, but I think that it's vitally important to distinguish between that decision and the suggestion that somehow Brexit means leaving Europe and severing all existing ties with the continent. Erasmus Plus, to me, is a prime example of the kind of continued cultural and educational partnerships that we should be looking to continue long into the future. Erasmus Plus has been of great benefit to many young people across Scotland and our wider society. As John McAlpine touched on, Erasmus is still perhaps best known for its work in enabling university and college students to travel internationally and facilitating international students being posted here in Scotland. That clearly enhances the vibrancy and global nature of our campuses and helps Scottish domicile students to develop a truly global perspective. That is important, particularly so for those from more deprived backgrounds who might not otherwise have had those opportunities. On that point, I would like to associate myself fully with the remarks that the minister made. NUS Scotland has also noted that Erasmus Plus has been proven to enhance participants' educational achievements and is firmly a driver of social mobility. To put that into perspective, the programme currently helps around 1,600 Scots go abroad to European countries every year. That has been on an upward trajectory, as some other members have mentioned, showing just how strongly young people feel about the project. It is a great opportunity for outward mobility, particularly with the number doubling in the past seven years. That is only part of the wider programme, as we have heard. In my constituency, for example, Brownhall primary school received funding to support staff development in language learning and Lockerbie academy have also taken part in a learning exchange with a school in Italy. Dumfries and Galloway Council's award-winning youth service has also received financial support to host an international training course to upscale youth workers on active citizenship. Those are just a few examples, and I know that members across the chamber will have hundreds more. Recently, as part of the cross-party group on Brexit, we held a meeting facilitated by YouthLink Scotland. During those discussions, I was struck by how important and valuable the young people present from across Scotland believed Erasmus Plus to be. As the briefing from University of Scotland confirms, the benefits of Erasmus are not just anecdotal. They recognise a notable correlation between periods of mobility and enhance the academic achievement by students, as well as a boost to skills and future employability. That is why I am particularly pleased that the UK Government has publicly stated that the UK is committed to continuing full participation in the Erasmus programme up until we leave the European Union and that people across the UK will continue to benefit from all Erasmus programmes, including Erasmus Plus, until the end of the current budget period. I am even more pleased that the Prime Minister has signalled her continued support today, and that that position will continue post 2020. On that, as I did not see PMQs earlier, the Prime Minister seems to have said that Erasmus is one of those that we have cited that we may wish to remain part of, but of course we are in a period of negotiation with the European Union, and we will be dealing with those matters in that negotiation. Is he happy enough with that level of assurance? I am happy with that level of assurance, because it shows the commitment. I think that what members in this chamber need to do is to be pragmatic. I think that people in Scotland would be very disappointed if, at a point when we are trying to establish the fundamental economic relationship between the UK and the EU after Brexit, if we were putting that part of the negotiations on hold, that is something that we will come to in time. At this stage, it is important that there is a firm commitment. Rather than trying to score political points and ramp up some idea that there is a disagreement around how important Erasmus is, people should be working together to make the positive case so that Scottish students and those from across the UK can continue to benefit from Erasmus Plus, which is one of the EU's most successful and iconic programmes. Just a wee minute, Mr Mundell. Mr Carlaw and Minister, that is very, very rude of your wee conversation when Mr Mundell is making a very interesting speech. You agree. Thank you both. You just go on, Mr Mundell. I am not sure that I agree, Presiding Officer, that there is a particularly interesting speech, but I am trying. On the point that I was just making, it is worth noting that a number of states that have already been mentioned, including Iceland, Norway, Lichtenstein and Turkey, continue to participate fully in Erasmus Plus. That provides hope and reassurance that reaching an accommodation is both possible and likely. Just a minute, minister. I thank the member for giving way. Although I appreciate that Turkey is in a different category, the member is aware that the first three of the countries that he has just mentioned are part of the European economic area and part of the freedom of movement of people, which brings us back to the point before about the importance of that. I would say that the minister has effectively made my point for me by pointing out that Turkey does not fall into that category. Secondly, we have to recognise that there is a huge number of academic and other global partnerships and relationships that exist outside of the EU's freedom of movement principle. It will be very sad for me, if I find out down the line, that the EU has somehow blocked Scotland or the United Kingdom from continuing to engage in something as important as this because of a lack of flexibility to accept the democratic will of the people of the United Kingdom. In conclusion, it is about trying to avoid—division avoid—a sense that there is a problem here, and it is about encouraging organisations to continue to apply individuals to continue to imply and put bids in while the UK is still in member state, because those will be honoured. I think that that is the priority now and to wait for the right moment in the negotiations to ensure that this very important policy continues post Brexit. With the opportunities that Erasmus Plus affords people, it would be a great shame that Scotland will no longer be able to participate in it or be denied an opportunity to participate as fully as it currently does. I want to thank the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee for the report and the effort that they have put into highlighting that important issue. Given the planned expansion of Erasmus Plus from 2021 to 2027, with its budget being double to 30 billion euros, that is the time to be at the heart of the scheme, not detached or even semi-detached from it. One of the aims of the scheme is to broaden the opportunities that may not otherwise be available to young people and those who support them, such as teachers. That is undoubtedly a good thing, culturally, socially and economically. Being able to experience the real lives of people in other countries opens minds and provides connections and enhances experiences in a way that will go on holiday or sit in a classroom never will. There is a clear need for Erasmus Plus in firm evidence of its value to Scotland and Scots. As a former sports journalist and still keen football fan, I want to focus part of my contribution on some of the impacts that the Erasmus Plus scheme has had on football in this country. Erasmus Plus funding allows for young players to spend time at winter camps via the vocational education and training stand, when the east of Scotland European consortium project area alone since 2014 Aberdeen, Cowdenbeath, Dundee United and St Johnston have all participated in that. As a Don's fan, still buoyed by their finally winning at park head to finish premiership runners-up, let me focus on my own club and how they have benefited from Erasmus Plus. Aberdeen is under 20 squad, travelled to Austria in 2015. The under 18 squad travelled to Portugal in January 2016. Host partners provided access to innovations in physiology, dietics, coaching delivery, tactical analysis and cardiovascular training. Those young players who travelled were undertaking a modern apprenticeship in sporting excellence. Stephen Gunn, Aberdeen football club's operations manager said, I quote, that the opportunities provided by those visits were hugely important in the development of our young footballers, both personally and professionally. St Johnston, 20 apprentices were able to gain experience of the training methods that have acknowledged UEFA Centre of Excellence in Portugal. The host partner was a regional training and coaching complex used by Portuguese and European professional teams, which is recognised as having world-class records in talent identification, innovative coaching and player development. Apprentices had the chance to learn about innovations in physiology, dietics, coaching, delivery, tactical analysis and cardiovascular training. The club believed that that would lead to improved success rates for those apprentices and being admitted to the professional ranks of UK clubs, and that improved academic attainment and European exposure would improve employability in secondary careers. Life outside of football is a vital consideration because only a small percentage of those apprentices will go on to make a full-time career, a full-time living from the game. St Johnston, in his application, highlighted that young people in Scotland are, and I quote, in the main rather parochial in nature, an exhibit of reluctance to undertake occupational mobility. That is particularly so with young people in the region, where many have put records of academic achievement and are socially disadvantaged. The club therefore committed to using its participation in Erasmus to encourage other young people to seek out mobility opportunities, something to be welcomed, I would say. Moving on from well-in-football schools to teaching languages, six schools in my constituency have received Erasmus Plus funding since 2014, Arbrod academy and five primary schools. The two plus one language strategy requires teachers to have the confidence to teach languages and the Erasmus Plus programme has allowed teachers from those schools to undertake intensive courses. The schools are clearly seeking to properly engage their pupils in language learning, for example by equipping teachers so that they can provide students with cultural awareness and knowledge to help them to understand the importance and the relevance of learning a modern language in today's global economy. Of course, the skills that the teachers learn can be shared with colleagues, and it is not just language learning that schools are boosting through Erasmus Plus. Many schools are involved in exchange or co-operation programmes through projects, and for example climate change. In relation to climate change, that matters, because as we know, climate change does not respect borders, nor does any one country have all the answers our own best practice. What does the future hold for Scotland's involvement with Erasmus Plus? The committee notes that uncertainty about the UK's participation in the programme beyond 2020 is creating an additional strain on some stakeholders on the current programme period. Unlike Oliver Mundell, I am far from encouraged by Theresa May's comments earlier today, which did not go nearly far enough. Even if the UK does find a way to continue participating in the scheme, there may be restrictions placed on its involvement. The example of Switzerland is highlighted in the report owing to its immigration policy that has been in place since 2014. That means that it cannot be a full participant, particularly in relation to sport. As Ian Gray and I have already highlighted, that matters to Scotland. Opportunities such as those are under threat from Brexit, and the UK Government must ensure that any negative impact is minimised. I also backed the call from the committee that if the UK Government is not willing or able to secure the UK's continued participation in Erasmus Plus as a programme country, the Scottish Government should explore whether it would be possible to use existing institutional structures to allow Scotland to continue its participation. Once again, I thank the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee for highlighting the important issue that has implications for my constituency and, as we have heard this afternoon, the whole of Scotland. I call Lewis MacDonald to be followed by Bob George. As a member of the committee last year, I was among those who had the opportunity to visit the Jack Kane Centre in Cregmiller in August. The young people whom we met there, as Joan McAlpine said, told us how Erasmus Plus had provided them with the opportunity to travel to meet people of the same age in other countries. Several of those young people had no previous opportunity to travel much beyond their local community. Equally, for the 35 students and staff at the University of Aberdeen, who wrote to me in March, the benefits that they identified were very similar, with a focus on formal education rather than on social engagement. They talked about removing barriers and the opportunity to study and live in different countries. For both groups of young people, maintaining that access for those who came after them was crucial. It would be unfair, the students said, for those who reaped the rewards from participating in Erasmus to deny that opportunity to future generations. That is the challenge that we now face. For a generation and more, we have benefited from the free movement of students, teachers and groups of young people between Britain and ever-wide areas of continental Europe. As things stand, there is no guarantee that future generations will be able to enjoy such freedom beyond 2020. The question of how to protect those benefits is therefore of great importance, and the committee's report is a very useful contribution to finding the right answer. Yesterday's Brexit debate was an argument about reserved and devolved responsibilities. Today's debate is about whether we should seek to agree post-Brexit to pool some of our resources with the European Union in order to maintain cross-border initiatives to mutual advantage. If we agree that that should be done, the question then is how. It is important to recognise the scale and significance of those cross-border links. From the University of Aberdeen and Robert Gordon University alone, over 600 students and nearly 100 staff have gone abroad under the Erasmus Plus programme in the academic years 2014-15 and 2015-16, and many students and teachers have also come to Aberdeen and to Scotland from other countries. Good for them and good for us. As a single example of what Erasmus Plus actually means, I would mention a young woman that I met last weekend at a fundraising dinner in Aberdeen hosted by the region's enterprise and community of Syrian former refugees. This post-graduate student is a citizen of an EU Baltic country who has used the Erasmus Plus to study in France and in Spain and is now doing a master's degree in Scotland, while also hoping to work with Syrians in Aberdeen to learn and to share her language skills. With French and Spanish to an academic standard, fluent in English and having grown up speaking both Russian and Estonian, here was a model, European and global citizen of the next generation. We surely want young Scots to match that breadth and depth, but a failure to join the successor scheme to Erasmus Plus would put that at risk. In addition, that story makes the point that Erasmus Plus benefits Scots who go abroad, but it also benefits Scotland from those people who come from other countries to work and study here. Of course, promoting an outward-looking culture among our young people is not just about access to European programmes of educational and cultural exchange. Figures just published show that the number of young Scots achieving qualifications in model languages, that very area that I have just described, has fallen by almost half in the last 10 years, and that is clearly very serious indeed. It is an urgent issue for Scottish ministers and indeed for this Parliament to address. However, very few young people in Scotland or anywhere else voted in favour of Brexit, as Mr Mundell did, because they wanted it to reduce their ability to travel or to work or study abroad. Loss of access to European exchange would certainly count as an unintended consequence of the vote two years ago. Stuart McMillan I thank Lewis Macdonald for taking the intervention. I am sure that Lewis Macdonald would agree with me in terms of encouraging people to go and take that time to go and study abroad. That is not just something that has been an issue over the course of the last decade. It is actually something that has been there for quite some time, because as someone mentioned earlier on, some people at times, unfortunately, can be quite insular regarding their own communities. Lewis Macdonald Absolutly. It is a generational issue, as Stuart McMillan said and knows from his own experience. The generation, typically represented by members of this Parliament, is a generation that has had the benefit of that over the last 40-something years. The issue now is how we secure those kinds of benefits for the next generation, and I think that that is the critical point. We know that UK ministers have guaranteed that commitments made under Erasmus Plus will be honoured for the full period of the current programme to the end of 2020. That is, of course, welcome. However, what they must now do is look beyond that and beyond 2020 to make commitments of their own to maintain engagement in whatever success programme the EU chooses to put in place. Clearly, Labour's priority would be to take forward membership and involvement in such programmes. What the committee is essentially doing is calling for the Conservative ministers to do the same. Of course, Oliver Mundell quoted Theresa May's statement today, an expression of willing, of course, as an important starting point. However, it remains a long way short of concluding an agreement with the European partners. Although many people on the Conservative benches now welcome Rachael Hamilton and Jackson Carlaw's support for this report, while they support the principle of seeking to be part of that successor scheme, the issue is how much they recognise the matter, but the issue will be how much does the matter to Government ministers when wading the balance against economic interests and, indeed, backward-looking notions of national sovereignty. However, as has been said, there are plenty of precedents for participation in Erasmus Plus. It is not confined to member states of the European Union, it is possible that the minister cited those members of EFTA in the European Economic Area, which are programme members, and Mr Mundell cited Turkey, which is none of those, which is not a member of EFTA and the EEA, but is nonetheless a programme member. So those countries that are out with the European Union and European Economic Area, which have access to those programmes, have negotiated that on a bilateral basis, they have given it sufficient priority to put in the balance against other things, and that fundamentally is the challenge here. However, participation will have to be paid for in addition to the financial contributions that have already been identified, and there will have to be a new agreement on freedom of movement for those involved. Those are big asks, but they are worth seeking answers to, because of the significance of the programme for future generations of young people and to maintain access going forward. As others have done, I thank the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee for the report that we are debating here this afternoon. Erasmus Plus provides hugely important opportunities for young people in my constituency to gain many opportunities to broaden their horizons, to gain new skills both social and educational, and to build on their confidence and personal development. I am particularly delighted that the minister welcomed the 2014 changes to open up Erasmus to youth groups. There was previously a perception that Erasmus was from the middle classes at university. I am not saying that that was a reality, but it was generally a perception that people had. That certainly made a huge difference in opening up to youth groups, certainly to young people in low-income households and deprived areas that I represent, who are able to seize many of the opportunities that, otherwise, would have been very difficult to ever obtain. I have several wonderful youth organisations in my constituency, but let me tell you about the benefit that Erasmus Plus has been to one of them, and that is Royston Youth Action. Royston is a fantastically resilient community, but not without its challenges. Levels of unemployment, low pay and low income families make it an area of particularly significant deprivation levels. There are also various health and societal-related challenges in the area, yet Royston Youth Action has sent local youngsters in recent years to Austria and to Finland. They are planning further. They have also hosted youth exchange trips. It is important that it is not just about young Scots going out to Europe, but about Europe coming to Scotland. They have hosted a youth exchange last year for young Europeans to Scotland. In this July, they are hoping to host other young people from Finland, Austria and Estonia up to the Garnagad, up to Royston, to see what we have to offer. That is vitally important. I would like to quote from Sharon Kelly, who is the project coordinator at Royston Youth Action. Many of our young people have never been abroad before and getting to go on trips such as those funded by Erasmus Plus has quite literally been life-changing for them. Some of them do not even have passports and we bought them for them and also ensured that they had the correct clothing for travelling and so on. All those trips are funded by Erasmus Plus and so there is not a high cost involved in taking the young people away. The shortfall is provided for by local fundraising. Many young people from areas such as this cannot afford to go on school trips abroad as those trips cost £600 or so. Being able to provide a trip abroad through a youth project is fantastic. I think that her words were better than any way I could capture it. I suppose that she should also go for a young person that has benefited from those trips abroad. I want to mention Toni, who is 16, and she spoke about other countries coming to Scotland to see what Glasgow had to offer. She said that I am quite a shy person and I do not have a lot of confidence, but it was nice to meet young people from Austria, Poland, Hungary and Finland to get their views about life in the countries and what their hopes are. At the end of the week, I felt a lot more confident that I am able to speak to everyone from different countries and I learned so much during this week. I think that that is a powerful testament to the benefit of Erasmus Plus. Does Brexit throw all that into doubt? Let us be honest about it absolutely. The Conservatives, Brian Whittle, mentioned earlier in the debate the UK Prime Minister's endorsement of Erasmus Plus at Prime Minister's Questions today. There was no endorsement, it was a dreadful equivocation. She said that we may wish to remain part of Erasmus, but we will be dealing with those matters in negotiations. That is hardly a ringing endorsement or a signal of intent. The future of young people and deprived communities that I represent should not be a plan and a game of negotiations in relation to Brexit. That is simply not acceptable. The Erasmus Plus report also highlighted another concern. If the UK Government sees a value of Erasmus and we have heard some kind of words in relation to that, then hopefully they would be capturing or monitoring the impact or success of that. I am looking at the committee report. I see the committee notes in this regard that the department for exiting the European Union sectoral report on higher education does not include Erasmus Plus and does not appear to have produced an analysis of the value of Erasmus Plus to those sectors participating in the scheme, such as good work, voluntary or school or further or higher education. I am sure that when we get around to those negotiations, the UK Government will look for an evidence base to continue with Erasmus Plus. It is not collecting the data and I do not think that that is acceptable. I thank Bob Doris for taking the intervention. I am sure that Bob Doris will agree with me that surely the time is now to start having these discussions, as compared to waiting until the very last day, before having discussions post. We are back on track with time, so you are in your last minute. That is not so helpful. I would like to think that the UK Government can multitask. I think that there is a quite easy deal to be done here. If the UK Government is willing to put the money in and if the UK Government is willing to guarantee freedom of movement for all the young people from other countries and from Scotland in relation to Erasmus Plus, we have a deal. We can have this in double speed time. There is no issue in relation to that. It is not consequential in the underpinning of economic relations and deals in relation to the wider Brexit. That is just an instance. I was going to mention some of the details about the cash in relation to Erasmus Plus, but let me just say that in 2021 the cash is doubling. I have other youth organisations in my constituency who are positioning themselves for bids for Erasmus Plus, but before they can even prepare a bid, it looks as if the UK Government may pull the rug from under their feet. That is not acceptable. It is now speeches of six minutes. Jamie Halcro Johnston, who is followed by Daniel Johnson, please. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I am duly warned. Can I start by thanking the members and the clerking team for the work that they have done around Erasmus Plus and the report that we have before us today? The current Erasmus Plus programme covers a period from 2014 to 2020, backed by a substantial budget of around 15 billion euros. Each year, it funds somewhere in the region of 16,000 exchanges for UK students to work or study abroad. Studying abroad provides equal opportunities for students based in Scotland and the rest of the UK to improve language skills, to experience work outside the country, and to broaden their horizons in different parts of the world. In the years that has operated, the Erasmus programme has built enduring links across Europe and further afield. Erasmus is also an opportunity, as the committee has recognised, to build on the UK's soft power as an area where we already do well. The programme's Erasmus Plus sponsors strengthen our cultural standing both within Europe and more widely. The evidence also suggests that it is supported and popular with people who have gone through the Erasmus programme. Emerging in the 1980s, Erasmus followed a number of other exchange programmes that were created within Europe that operated in the early part of that decade. Since that time, Erasmus Plus has brought together a number of programmes under its umbrella. As it stands, the programme supports a variety of different areas of education, training, sport and youth work. The study abroad schemes in universities are probably the most visible component, but there are many other examples of work. Staff in education, for example, can also benefit from the opportunity to train and to work abroad. Erasmus also features in many of Scotland's schools. As the committee observes, 2.3 million euros of the total 21 million euros that were spent in Scotland in 2017 were directed to schools, with a further three quarters of a million for youth work organisations. I mention those elements because, when we consider the future of the UK's relationship with Europe, it is clear that there is a great deal of positivity from across the board towards the work of programmes such as Erasmus. We have seen that from a range of organisations in the education sector that have contributed their views to inquiries both in this Parliament and in the UK Parliament. In her speech in Florence back in September, the Prime Minister outlined the promotion of science, education and culture as examples of advantageous programmes and policies that have benefited the UK and the other 27 member states of the EU. I expect that there is broad consensus in this chamber with the view that, moving forward, the UK should continue to work together with the EU member states on areas of mutual interest. The UK Government has also outlined its willingness to make an on-going contribution to cover our fair share of the costs that are involved in such programmes. As the minister, Steve Baker, pointed out in his letter to the committee, the content of the successor programme to Erasmus Plus beyond 2020 has not yet been clarified. We know, however, that there are a number of possible proposals that have been suggested at this stage as well as serious consideration being given to increasing the budget for Erasmus. Participation in the successor programme or programmes will necessarily form part of the negotiations on the UK's future relationship with the EU and that remains on-going. However, in the meantime, the importance of programmes like Erasmus was agreed by all parties in the December European Council summit, with the UK representation echoing the Prime Minister's willingness to continue co-operation on education and culture. For some sense of the precedents behind this, we can look to the five non-EU countries that directly participate in the programme. As has been mentioned before, Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein are the most obvious, but we also see amongst the programme countries Macedonia and Turkey, which are not part of either the EU or after and lack much of the integration with the EU that the EU states have previously mentioned. Those countries are then followed by a fairly lengthy list of partner countries from across the Balkans in North Africa and the Middle East, in the Caucasus and Russia and, of course, Switzerland. Those pre-existing relationships are of significant value in maintaining student mobility going forward and they spread the impact of Erasmus beyond the EU. Those countries have specific and various relationships with the Erasmus programme, with the programme countries obviously having the closest interaction. In its report, the committee has outlined its view that programme country status is what the UK should be seeking in the future. Of course, we will look at the emerging shape of the post-2020 successor programme, but I am similarly minded that we should continue to participate as fully as possible. Erasmus Plus has been a positive feature of our relationship with the EU in the past decades. There seems to be a broad agreement that it will be beneficial to continue in the future. That is not to say that Erasmus Plus is perfect. In common with many EU initiatives, it can be restrictive and bureaucratic in parts. It has limited global reach, currently supported by the international credit mobility scheme, but there is scope to do better in that regard and to look outward. There are areas in which the UK can be a constructive voice, working together with colleagues across the other participating countries. It is clear that there must be considerable thought, given how we continue co-operation in education, supported after the UK's departure from the EU. That must happen not just across this Parliament but across Scotland and the rest of the UK as well. We can see that that is happening, both here and in other places. In that regard, the committee's report is to be welcomed. I am pleased to be taking part in this afternoon's debate, because it gives us an opportunity to have a different sort of debate about Europe. I think that all too often debates regarding Europe in recent times have been either those of constitutional clash or economic calculation, but I think that Europe is much broader than that and it is much more important than that. EU is not just about trade, the EU is not just about migration, the EU is not just about the single market, indeed Europe is not just about the EU, Europe is about people and it is about culture. We must be mindful that that was the very much the mindset at the founding moment of the European project. It was about integration. Integration is a means of preventing war. Economic integration was a vital component of that, but it was only a means of that integration and that cultural integration was just as important, if not more so. I know that Oliver Mundell, who is not in this place, made a similar point. It is important that we do not simply conflate withdrawal from the EU with withdrawal from Europe. If we can participate in European institutions and programmes, we must seek to do so, but I would caution him. It is not the course of action that I would advise, it is not the one that I would want, and I would caution against a pick-and-mix approach to Europe, one that sees programmes as simply bargaining chips, much as Bob Doris and Stuart McMillan have set out. If we are in the position that we are, we must look at the benefits of the programmes that we participate in. I think that this afternoon's debate has been a useful opportunity to explore why Erasmus Plus has been so important. If we can promote cultural exchange at that young age, we can foster the views and understandings that so many members have set out so well this afternoon. £14 billion of funding, which is available—£20 million that has been received by Scotland—is clearly of huge value, but its true benefit is incalculable. I very much welcome the committee's report and this debate for many reasons. Yes, because the benefits and importance of Erasmus is important that we hear and discuss and how we can preserve them. More importantly, so that we can discuss how we can take forward European participation and explore the possibilities of participating in Europe, both in terms of the specific sense in Erasmus and as a general principle. However, it is also an opportunity that we can set out our views about how we can pursue being European in a much broader sense than simply just within the parameters of Brexit or the European Union. At this point, I would like to turn to matters closer to home and speak a little about Edinburgh University. I am hugely indebted to it for its help that it provided me ahead of this. I know that it is proud to have participated in Erasmus since its inception in 1987. Since then, as the programme has grown, so has Edinburgh University's involvement. Again, I am sorry that Ian Gray is not in his place, because I heard him say that he was wrong. He was very wrong, because not only is Scotland a significant participant in Erasmus, Edinburgh University is the UK's largest sender of students via the Erasmus scheme and the largest host in Scotland. Over 12,000 students have participated in Erasmus just at Edinburgh University, and they currently have agreements with over 300 institutions in more than 20 nations. The benefit is not just about Edinburgh students having a fantastic year. It helps them to learn languages, to grow their understanding of other cultures, and it is also about welcoming those who arrive in Edinburgh from other countries, enriching both the university and our city, and our country. That is why Erasmus has been so important, not just because it provides a good time for students, although I am sure that it does, but because it has diffused cultural benefits. It has concrete benefits for those students who take part themselves. Students who take part in Erasmus have lower unemployment rates, higher average incomes and better degree outcomes. Of course, Erasmus also goes beyond students having a wider international and cultural impact. One other interesting bit of evidence that I discovered was that there have been 1 million Erasmus babies since 1987, which we could all regard as an outcome of enthusiastic student exchanges. However, we have to talk about Brexit, because that is why we are having to talk about Erasmus and discuss its benefits. Edinburgh University is committed to its collaboration. Indeed, it has seen application rates rise, and the benefits of Erasmus are in jeopardy. That is the true benefit of this debate. There are opportunities to explore. People have discussed the examples of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Turkey and Switzerland. We must urge the UK Government to fully explore the possibilities. However, that cannot be simply an acknowledgement that has been of benefit to commit to participation up to the end of the current round, or indeed, the Prime Minister's quote today from the Prime Minister's questions, which she may wish to remain part of Erasmus. We need a full commitment to opening that dialogue, to securing the possibilities and committing to taking part in Erasmus in the future. Likewise, the Scottish Government should examine the options and possibilities that it has for participation. Education is a dissolved area. Government, at its best, is when it is innovative and proactive. I suggest that the Government should explore its possibilities for being innovative and proactive in regard to taking forward Erasmus from a Scottish Government perspective. I wish that we were not having to have this debate today, but it has been a useful opportunity to explore how we can maintain our commitment to Europe, explore bilateral relations and, above all else, make sure that students and young people continue to have the opportunities of international exchange that Erasmus has afforded in the past. I wish to associate myself with the comments of our committee convener, Joan McAlpine, on thanking the clerks for all their hard work on this report. Fellow members of the committee and, of course, all the witnesses who gave oral and written evidence. Erasmus, of course, was a famous European philosopher, Erasmus of Rotterdam, and in the late 14th and early 15th and early 16th century, he lived in France, Switzerland, Belgium and England, among other places. He took advantage of the free movement of people all those years ago. Of course, he also taught at the Queen's College in Cambridge, where there is today the Erasmus building and the Erasmus room. There is, of course, an irony in that he has this scheme named after him, but England voted to leave the EU, and this is what we are debating today is the future of Erasmus. He also coined a phrase in The Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is king, which takes me nicely on to the EU referendum campaign, because that was largely conducted in a horrible atmosphere that did not really touch upon how Europe benefits our everyday lives in this country or certain sections of society, and it was very much focused on unhealthy topics, with lots of misleading information and, indeed, lies as well. Absolutely happily from yourself, of course. I thank the member for giving way. Do you think that the member would agree with me that referendums in general are divisive and unpleasant by their nature, and that has been the pattern of recent political events here in the UK? I certainly think that referendums are based on accurate information and reality. Given the changes that have taken place between nations in the centuries, I have not involved referendums, but I have involved much more unhealthy ways of taking decisions over the future of countries. I think that it is fantastic that we have referendums in this day and age, but I really wish that all campaigns would be responsible during those referendum campaigns. A leave campaign was far from responsible, but one thing that is certain from the last referendum campaign is that young people played a role, unfortunately not enough of a role in the referendum campaign. It is estimated that 75 per cent of people under the age of 24 voted to remain. Unfortunately, the turnout of people under the age of 24 was smaller than the turnout of people over the age of 55, and therefore the UK voted to leave the EU. No doubt one of the reasons why so many young people were in favour of the EU was programmes such as Erasmus, free movement of people and the ease of travel around Europe. Young people under the age of 24 have grown up with that throughout their lives. As I said before, they enthusiastically got behind the remain campaign in 2016. In the backdrop of the referendum campaign, unfortunately issues such as the Second World War were not discussed. Of course, the European Union was born out of the ashes in the wrecked Europe as a result of the Second World War. Since then, there have been lots of programmes looking at how we can have cross-border co-operation and cross-border exchange across the continent. Erasmus, over the past 30 years, has been a prime example of how Europe can work close together and how people can have their horizons expanded by travelling to other countries to live and work or learn. Erasmus has been exceptionally successful in doing that. Scotland is a very international outward-looking country. I was interested to learn at 9.7 per cent of students at Scottish institutions that study abroad compared to only 6.9 per cent in England and 7.2 per cent across the whole of the UK. There is evidence to show that Scotland is an outward-looking internationalist country, particularly in terms of where young people want to live and study overseas. That is borne out by the statistics over the EU success story that is Erasmus in terms of the 60 million euros that has been invested in Scotland since 2014 across 700 projects and the increasing number of young people taking part in Erasmus over recent years. Of course, it is a two-way process. We have more international students studying our university compared to the rest of the UK nations as well. Leaving the EU has brought concerns for those people who have benefited from Erasmus or who continue to be involved in their employment with that programme or who want to take part in the future. There are many, many concerns that the committee heard from Marion Sporing, for instance, at the University Council for Modern Limes in Scotland. She said that most of her students go through Erasmus+. If we do not have freedom of movement, it would be a disaster for academic and social reasons and for the internationalisation of the country and for the experience of our students and staff in research. Luke Humberstone of the NUS Scotland said that, as we have seen from Switzerland, when rules on freedom of movement or immigration are changed, it makes developing bilateral agreements with individual countries much more complex. There are many, many other concerns that were expressed to the committee. In terms of concerns, there are many benefits that illustrated the committee of Erasmus as well. The University of Scotland briefing said that there is a notable correlation between periods of mobility and enhanced students' academic achievements, skills and employability. 93 per cent of learners agree that they see the value of different cultures after participation. There are many others. Emily Beaver of Youth Link Scotland said that the focus of the current seven-year programme has been diversity and inclusion. Research has shown that young people with fewer opportunities rate the programme more strongly than well-off young people do so that that focus has been successful. There are many benefits. That is why the committee has made the recommendations that have been made, as explained by the committee convener, Julie McAlpine, in her opening speech. We need clarity as soon as possible. I have concerns. First, there is a lack of clarity. There is the fact that we have only got a guarantee to continue to fund this for as long as we are part of Europe. While we are leaving Europe soon, what happens thereafter? I am also concerned about the long-term issues. We should be looking at what is happening in 10 years, 20 years and the next 30 years, just as we have experienced the success of Erasmus in the past 30 years. My concern is what is going to happen is that the UK Government is going to give short-term guarantees. I do not know how long they will be for. We know that we have one at the moment up until we leave Europe. There may be a further one for another few years. Who knows? Then they will stop the funding, and the funding that the UK Government has saved by leaving Europe will not be passed to Scotland. The Scottish Government will be left once again picking up the pieces for those really successful programmes, which will stretch our Scottish budget even more as a consequence of decisions taken out with Scotland. That is a real concern, so we have to find a way in which we get guarantees from the UK Government to continue to fund Erasmus, make sure that negotiations are successful so that we can be a partner in that programme in Scotland and continue to ensure that the young people of Scotland still have the opportunity to work and study overseas and bring all the benefits for their lives that have been brought over the past 30 years. Alexander Stewart is followed by Willie Coffey. The Erasmus Plus programme has benefited millions of students across Europe and further, giving them the opportunity to study, to train, to gain work experience and to volunteer abroad. A continued participation in the programme should send a clear signal that we wish to continue to work constructively with those in Europe, as we leave the political institutions of the European Union. It is clear from the Erasmus Plus programme that has been extremely successful in improving the job prospects of its participants, who on average have significantly better employability skills than those who do not participate in the programme. However, the success of the programme here in Scotland goes well beyond simply improving the job prospects of participants. Within my region of Mid Scotland and Fife, there have been many successes that have taken place in universities and colleges in schools in that region, and individuals have benefited from that. For example, it assists universities and colleges in establishing new contacts with other institutions across Europe. We have heard already today that the University of Edinburgh has Erasmus agreements with more than 300 institutions across Europe and further. Moreover, the scheme allows students to benefit from experiencing different cultures while studying for their qualifications. It unlocks their potential, builds the networks that they need for the future and gives them new opportunities. For all those reasons, I am pleased to see that the report from the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee, and I pay tribute to members of that committee and the staff and the clerks that were participating in the process. I look forward to joining that committee if the motion goes through this afternoon. Next week, I will have the opportunity to participate in that committee, and I look forward to that. As we have said, the goals that have been set to ensure that European Union parties, and we all want to see that. Every party in the chamber wants to see that continue, because we can see the benefits that are happening in our constituencies, in our communities and in our regions. The Scottish Conservatives have always wholeheartedly supported Erasmus programme, because they see the ethos and the outstanding opportunities that have taken place. When European students participate in Erasmus, it has often been their first international experience—the opportunity for them to enhance their education at the same time experiencing new cultures and new organisations. They get the chance to exchange and enhance their skills, and that is a real benefit. The added bonus is that it has also given them the opportunity to support and grants, so there is financial support that has taken place to ensure that those individuals had that opportunity. We have heard from members in the chamber today about what has happened in their own communities when individuals have had the chance to develop that skill coming from backgrounds that did not give them that chance normally, and that programme has opened that for them and given them that opportunity. Indeed, others have mentioned that, despite the fact that Erasmus Plus is financed by the European Commission, there are a number of examples of countries that are not part of the EU but who are fully participating in the scheme and make financial contributions. Many of them engage in the programme as a partner country but with somewhat limited access, while Switzerland, as we have already heard, redesigned as a partner country following decisions to end free movement within the European Union. Places such as Turkey and the former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia continue to be full members in the scheme, despite not having freedom of movement within the European Union. Alexander Stewart will agree with me that the paragraph 73 of our committee report highlights how important the free movement is to Turkey and Macedonia. I am not just putting that in any way, but that is very important in the process. We can therefore conclude that even the contributions that we have seen within the European Union and participate in the process give us the opportunities. The report on the challenges and the opportunities from higher education and from leaving the EU, the House of Commons education select committee suggested that, given that the UK's position is a more popular destination for EU students than some other countries and the arrangements that include continued full membership of the EU would benefit both sides. I believe that very much to be the case, that we can secure that. In conclusion, it is clear that the arrangements can be found to allow students from the UK and Europe to continue studying, volunteering, gaining work experience and training within those other countries. The benefits for that are immense. I look forward to seeing and hearing what will take place with regard to the European Union and the partnership that we have seen and have continued to develop, because it is able to reach agreements. I look forward to seeing that the agreements can be reached and that we can work together collectively in support of that, because we have heard so many benefits today that take place. It is our duty in this Parliament to ensure that we sing that and make sure that that is going out. We make sure that we are solving it from the same hem sheet to ensure that all government takes place, whether it is the Scottish Government or the UK Government, because it is vitally important for the benefits of generations to come that the UK and Europe are like. I support the programme and I want to see continued success for all to ensure that we can see that for the future. Before we come to our closing speeches, I would like to call Willie Coffey. Thank you very much. When we talk about Erasmus, we should probably start by recognising and honouring the pioneering work done by the wonderful Sophia Carada, mama Erasmus or mother Erasmus, who established the whole concept as far back as 1976. As a young Italian student in 1958, she came back to Italy with a master's degree from the University of Columbia in New York, only to be laughed at by her professor at the University of Lassapienza in Rome, who told her that she cannot travel all round the world and then pretend to steal a degree here. So she spent another year studying in Rome to complete her master's to the satisfaction of that university. Sophia felt that others should not have to go through this and started developing the idea of a European project that allows students to study abroad as part of their exams and to have that recognised internationally. In 1976, for the first time, degrees achieved by Italians in France were equally recognised in their own country, and in 1987, the Erasmus programme started to take off. The Erasmus was born. She even said in a recent lecture that the programme was probably illegal at the time, since there were no agreed legal mechanisms in Europe at that time to facilitate something like this, but she did it anyway and we're all the better off for it. Now, more than four million students have already experienced this incredible exchange programme, and Sophia's dream is to make Erasmus an internationally recognised programme across the world. It was, she said, always a universal idea, not just a European one. From those early beginnings, it took around 20 years to talk the one million mark in numbers of participants, but now we're seeing one million newcomers every three years. Its scope is much broader now, embracing vocational apprenticeship, management and even sporting programmes too. In Scotland, there were around 6,000 taking part in 2016, with around 1,600 of those being students, and our participation rate in Scotland is much higher than it is in England and the other nations of the UK. Our Scottish universities are incredibly successful in winning funding to co-ordinate the Erasmus-Mundus joint masters degree projects, and they account for over 85 per cent of those projects. We can see how important Erasmus is to Scotland and why it's important to get an agreement in place. The committee, the clerks and staff deserve our thanks for bringing the report together at this really important time. The messages are clear. We need some commitments pretty soon from the UK Government about its intentions beyond 2020. The committee recommends that the UK Government negotiates to retain programme country status, which would ensure the continuation of Erasmus in Scotland. According to the report, Turkey and Macedonia, who are not EU members, have secured this arrangement and have put in place agreements in freedom of movement for all participants, an important feature of the programme. Surely the UK can at least match that. The European Parliament is working on its next budget for the years ahead, and the commission would like to double the Erasmus budget to around €30 billion, so we need to know now if we are in or out and what our contribution will be towards this amazing programme. If the UK walks away from Erasmus beyond 2020, which would be a scandalous thing to do, the committee has asked how the Scottish Government might continue to support our citizens to participate in the programme. A real-life experience is probably more valuable than all the stats that we can share this afternoon to illustrate the importance of Erasmus. My daughter, Nev, spent six months in Sweden from last summer, and here is a brief extract of what she had to say. It was an invaluable experience in Sweden that I am so grateful to have been able to participate in. It built my confidence, independence and developed my interpersonal skills, opened my mind and was very humbling. Travelling and living in a different country, finding my way, making new friends and interacting with different cultures was a wonderful experience. I made friends for life and had the opportunity to make amazing once-in-a-lifetime memories such as travelling across the Arctic Circle to Lapland, being hosted in a yacht with the Salmi people who keep reindeer, drinking glog and hearing about their unique way of life and, of course, seeing the Northern Lights. Akademically, she says, it was fantastic to be studying politics with students from all over Europe, escaping from the bubble and discussing their perspectives on contemporary issues. Having to act as the UK rep in a Brexit negotiation role-play and a roomful of Europeans was not the most enjoyable part for her, but she says that we at least managed to reach a deal at the end of that process. I felt that I was taking on an ambassadorial role in representing my university in Scotland, which I am extremely proud to have had the chance to do. I am eternally grateful for my experience. It has shaped me forever in the most positive way. The things that I got to see and do and the people I met will stay with me for the rest of my life and would not be possible without the Erasmus Plus exchange programme. It would be a real tragedy for students to miss out on that chance in the future. From seeing a slightly shy, apprehensive and tearful daughter one day in August last year, making her way from Glasgow airport to a new experience in Gothenburg or Ytobora, as the Swedes call it locally, then returning six months later full of chat and stories, brimming with confidence and wondering what the fuss was all about in the first place, that is when the importance and relevance of Erasmus actually sinks in. Would Erasmus have happened anyway without Sophia Carady? Quite probably, but she had the dream and the determination to make it happen. She rightly said that Erasmus is not just about higher education, it is a programme of experience and immersion in another country. Sure, it costs a lot to do this, but the value of Erasmus cannot possibly be measured in terms of the cost alone. It is quite an incredible idea created by an incredible woman and I think that all the Governments have a duty to make sure that it continues. Thank you, Presiding Officer. This afternoon's debate has been a most consensual one with members from across the chamber expressing a clear commitment to the continuation of Scotland's involvement with the Erasmus Plus programme. In closing for Scottish Labour, I will first touch on the speakers in the debate and the benefits of the Erasmus programme. However, I want to focus some of my remarks on the personal experiences of a member of my staff. John McAlpine, the convener of the committee, gave us the details of the background to the inquiry and the work that they undertook. Shirley-Anne Somerville highlighted the impact that Brexit could have, as other speakers did. I was particularly pleased to hear Iain Gray commenting on the Hibbs Community Foundation and the work that they have done with Erasmus to support and encourage the participation of women in football. Ross Greer and Oliver Mundell spoke of the wider benefits of the programme. Graham Day highlighted the benefits to football through the Erasmus programme. Lewis MacDonald perfectly illustrated the benefits of Erasmus when he spoke of the young women from Estonia and the importance of the programme to her. It is also worth repeating the comments from Lewis MacDonald when he said that Erasmus Plus means Scotland's benefit from going abroad, but Scotland also benefits from other people coming here. It is extremely encouraging that, in the last year, Scotland has successfully obtained its highest ever allocation of Erasmus Plus funding. However, it is deeply regrettable that Brexit casts a cloud of uncertainty over Scotland's future and Erasmus Plus. It is disappointing that the UK Government has only given a short-term guarantee of UK participation in Erasmus until 2020. I firmly support the committee's recommendation to the UK Government to commit itself to participation in the Erasmus Plus beyond 2020 and for the Scottish Government to clearly outline its priorities for the Erasmus programme. The Erasmus Plus programme gives our young people the independence and the responsibility to flourish as young adults through offering opportunity to live for up to one year in another European country. That gives our young people the opportunity to learn another language, the opportunity to immerse themselves in another culture and the opportunity to better understand different values and different worldviews. My office has witnessed first-hand the tangible benefits of Erasmus. In August 2015, one of my staff, Rory Stride, embraced the opportunity of the Erasmus programme, and moved to Sweden to study history and politics at Stockholm University. Although he chose to study at Stockholm, there was the opportunity to study at the University of Groningen, the University of Lisbon or the University of Oslo. Through his experience of living in Stockholm, not only did he have the opportunity to become a connoisseur of cinnamon pastries and a fan of Scandinavia drama, he also benefited hugely by immersing himself in the everyday culture, the everyday norms and the everyday values of the Swedish people, living his life in a residential area of the city, like the average Stockholmer. For the first time, he had the opportunity and the responsibility to live independently in a European capital city. He visited other Swedish cities, attended football games at Hammer Bay Telly 2 arena, ice hockey matches at Jürgen Globe and Arena, he visited Skansen, the oldest open-air museum in the world, he visited the Nordic Museum, the Swedish Parliament and frequented the numerous coffee shops scattered throughout the picturesque cobbled lanes of Stockholm's old town, the Gamla Stan for Fika, which once again involved a cup of coffee and the cinnamon pastries that he learned to love so much. He made a range of new friends from a variety of countries, including Germany, the Czech Republic and South Korea. He was taught by leading Swedish academics in political science and learned new approaches to studying and a new perspective on history, learning about Sweden's indigenous Sami population. Socialy, Erasmus offers our young people the opportunity to broaden their horizons by learning more about the different cultures of different nations, their distinctive language, their shared values and their national outlook. The Erasmus programme allows our young people the chance to appreciate and understand how interconnected and similar we are as Europeans. Academically, the Erasmus programme offers the opportunity for students to share ideas and to rigorously debate a range of concepts. It allows our young people to develop an understanding of the similarities and variances in the world view of their European and international peers, which emerge from their differing backgrounds and their differing lived experiences. In coming to a close, Presiding Officer, it is important to reiterate that on these benches we fully appreciate and fully recognise the importance and the value of the Erasmus Plus programme and fully support Scotland's long-term involvement with the programme, Post Brexit. The world is undoubtedly becoming smaller, and leaving the European Union does not mean that we must detach ourselves from Europe. We should focus on prioritising the protection and the promotion of all opportunities for our young people to learn and develop from their European neighbours. It is imperative that the Scottish Government and the UK Government does all that can to ensure that the vital opportunity for cultural exchange and social development are available for future generations. Presiding Officer, can I begin just by observing that this is a report with which Joan McAlpine, Tavish Scott, Ross Greer and myself have all associated? Before we have Richard Lochhead, Stuart McMillan, Mary Gougeon or even Rachel Hamilton, we have managed to come up with a unanimous agreement on the report. It is worth repeating that, because at times this afternoon I wondered whether that was the case. I too would like to thank the clerks for their work, not just on the report, but on others as well. I think that the committee on which I have been pleased to serve but now leave since 2016 has been at its best when we have had singular focus and have arrived at a unanimous conclusion. I know that there is a very valuable work being currently done on the future of the screen sector in Scotland, which I very much look forward to seeing in its conclusion. Can I come back to the comments of Ian Gray, because I thought that many people will associate themselves with what he said and not properly understanding the success of the Erasmus scheme to Scotland over very many years, and I thought that that was a worthwhile point to make. Also, to Ross Greer, at least in the first half of his comments, he explained the breadth of the initiatives that have been incorporated in the Erasmus scheme, which, again, I do not think are fully appreciated. It was often said that it was simply a programme for middle-class young people, and I think that Ross Greer detailed all the different ways in which it was appreciated. Then, of course, he had to spoil it all by going into one of his polemics, and I would just say to Mr Greer that all this would count for a lot more if his party hadn't abdicated their democratic responsibility to contest the election that was about Europe last June. Only three of his side did, one being his leader, who came forth in the seat that he actually fought. I would just say that, if you are going to comment on those issues, it is not just a case of saying here that you want the transfer of migration to this Parliament, a policy that Professor John Curtis has shown that 63 per cent of Scots do not want, you have to test those points out with the electorate as well. However, Erasmus is not a policy that is owned by any one political party, and it is often said that this is all about the secret agenda of born-again Brexiteers. Well, I represent Eastwood. It is the Conservative-held seat in the United Kingdom with the highest remain vote of any. Many of the young people, if not all of the young people there, are internationalists as young people across Scotland, I think, instinctively now are. Yes, it has got many middle-class children, and that would be undeniable, but it has got young people from challenging backgrounds as well. I met and understood and appreciated during the European referendum and since their commitment to an internationalist perspective. I think that Tavish Scott was right, although I think that he used the analogy more broadly. They just want Erasmus and that ability to work and to be educated and to participate in schemes across the European Union and the wider world in an uninterrupted fashion. Let me make it perfectly clear. It is not acceptable to me if the outcome of our exit from the European Union is one in which we are no longer able to participate in the Erasmus programme. I think that it is perfectly clear that the direction of the UK Government is that we will, and nobody has really referred to it, but the UK Government has formally responded to this report, and it has gone beyond 2020. It is made clear that all in any bids that have been submitted, while the UK is still a member, even if they have not been improved until after we have left, will be honoured. They have made it perfectly clear that UK participation in the future of the Erasmus programme is a key aspect of the UK's negotiating position. I am grateful for Mr Carr for taking the intervention. He heard the same evidence that I did. What impact does he believe that the loss of freedom of movement will have on Erasmus participation for the likes of West Oden College? Jackson Carlaw to understand that there are countries, and Turkey is one of the ones that has been evidenced, where bilateral arrangements have been arrived at, which have allowed them to stay members of the Erasmus programme. It is required freedom of movement of the participants. It is also important to recognise that it is not just important to young people from Britain who want to participate either here or internationally in Erasmus, the United Kingdom is one of the most favoured destinations of young people and the rest of Europe who wish to participate in the Erasmus scheme. To answer Lewis MacDonald's point, it is not a case of balancing that against the economic advantage. There is a huge cultural and social advantage, but there is a key economic advantage to our participation in the Erasmus programme as well. Can I say that I enjoyed the speeches? Yes, of course. I appreciate the point that he makes, absolutely. Would he, is it his opinion, his view that that economic benefit is properly understood and how will it be weighed in the bounds by his colleagues at Westminster? One of the purposes of this report and the unity of purpose that there has been behind it in this Parliament is that it gives us an opportunity as Scottish politicians to argue that very point and to assure that it is properly represented in the debate that now takes place leading through to that negotiation. I enjoyed the contribution of Tavish Scott who reminds us that Erasmus is very often successful because of the commitment of individuals. I think that his contribution there was much appreciated. I was sorry that Oliver Mundell told us that he had no wonderful experiences in his life, a terrible indictment of his father, the worst I have ever heard. I would say to Daniel Johnson, look, can I make an offer? Can I take you out to lunch just to jolly up your life a bit? You are so darkly unhappy all the time, Mr Johnson. Life does not need to be like that. Then can I conclude with the observation that I was reminded of during this debate and I have to paraphrase Churchill here, but I think that he said something about the art of a successful politician was to argue with absolute conviction and certainty what the future would be and then afterwards to explain with absolute conviction and clarity why it then had not happened. I think that I hope that both sides of this argument have fallen on either side of that at times. This report united Parliament. Scottish Conservatives have associated itself with all its conclusions and all its recommendations. It would be a shame if others now sought to divide the Parliament from that outcome. All of us together—this Parliament, all of Scotland's politicians—I am sorry, I am now at my final seconds, but we will discuss it over lunch—all of politicians need to work together now to ensure that the objective that we all want to secure, which is our continued participation in Erasmus, is one of the outcomes of the negotiations that we are about to enter into. I am confident that it can be, but let's have a glass half full, not a glass half empty. I thank the minister, Alasdair Allan, to wind up for the Government. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am not sure how much time you are planning for me to speak. Seven minutes, that's good. I would like to commend the work of the Culture, Tourism and External Relations Committee in giving organisations from different sectors in Scotland the opportunity to give their views to Parliament on the value of the Erasmus plan. Indeed, I do think that there has been some consensus in the chamber today, certainly consensus around the report and the value of Erasmus Plus. The questions arising at this afternoon have not been so much about should it be continued, rather than about how it might be continued in the future. I acknowledge the recommendations and the conclusions in the report. As the minister for UK negotiations on Scotland's place in Europe said in his letter to the committee yesterday, we will consider those as we continue our work with the sector to mitigate the very worst effects of Brexit. Like Tavish Scott, I want to resist being wound up over Brexit this afternoon, but the evidence given to the committee and the testimony that the Government has received since the EU referendum has painted a very clear picture of what participation in Erasmus Plus brings to Scotland. The funding is important and valuable, but it is the effect that the programme has on thousands of people's lives that is most significant. Ian Gray and Bob Doris pointed to the fact that Scotland has been getting much better at revealing itself of the opportunities presented by Erasmus Plus and particularly the benefit for young people from less privileged backgrounds. The analysis of the impact of what the loss of access to Erasmus Plus might mean is a relevant question for us today. Another relevant question is, of course, what happens beyond the next year or two. Ever since the EU referendum, the Scottish Government has, as I said, tried to engage with stakeholders across Scotland to understand how the UK's withdrawal from the EU might affect them. The feedback that we have received has played a significant role in shaping the Scottish Government's position as set out in Scotland's place in Europe. That includes feedback specifically on the value of Erasmus Plus, from universities, colleges, schools, youth organisations and others, and other funding programmes. There are concerns about how losing access to Erasmus Plus might affect them. The Scottish Government has heard many first-hand accounts from students, volunteers, ministers and others about their experiences and thoughts on that. We have heard how organisations are finding their planning at the moment is hampered by the continuing uncertainty of which a number of speakers today spoke. For example, time spent abroad is a critical part of some university courses such as modern languages. Perspective students who are currently considering where and what to study from the start of next academic year will not know whether or how that part of their course will be supported. The main message is concern about the lack of clarity for the future. Recent confirmation in the joint report on phase 1 of the negotiations that the UK will continue to participate in EU programmes to the end of 2020 is welcome, and I am happy to welcome it. Stakeholders urgently need to know about the future beyond the next year or two. We continue to press the UK Government to provide some clarity about its intentions with regard to Erasmus Plus. Welcome, as the Prime Minister's recent comments are, around future Erasmus commitments, possibly. We need answers now about how the UK can make aspirations around that a reality, providing us with some detail beyond the statement made today. Rachael Hamilton Minister for technical intervention, how are you engaging with the UK Government currently to make representations of the value of Erasmus? That is the point at which ministers have engaged officials at both Governments to discuss it on a regular basis, because we have both publicly and in official contact made very clear about the value of Erasmus. We have sought to establish where Erasmus fits into the negotiating priorities and timetable for the UK Government in its present situation in the Brexit talks. As I say, Scotland's preference is to retain access to Erasmus Plus as a full partner. The question was raised a number of times in the debate today about what kind of access that is. Of course, EU countries have particular ease of access to Erasmus, given the freedom of movement of people. However, a number of people in the debate have pointed to other examples such as Turkey and Macedonia and countries that have reached their own arrangements with the scheme. That is certainly all true and relevant, but the point is that time is running out and that, if we are seeking or even talking about arriving at such an arrangement outside the European economic area, we need to be arriving at an idea of how that might work sometime very soon indeed. More positively, it should be said and others pointed to this, that the budget for the current Erasmus Plus programme is 40 per cent higher than its predecessor. The fact that the commission recently proposed doubling the budget for the next iteration of the programme indicates how highly valued the programme is across Europe. We anticipate that the commission will publish more detailed proposals on the format and content of Erasmus Plus from 2021 onwards in the coming months. We will analyse those proposals closely and work with stakeholders across Scotland to identify what our response should be. However, whatever the commission proposes and despite the lack of immediate detail around the UK's relationship with Erasmus Plus after 2020, we intend to engage fully in discussions with partners across Europe on the future of the programme. To conclude, Erasmus Plus represents an unparalleled opportunity for students, staff, young people and volunteers across Scotland. There is no other programme that compares with Erasmus Plus in providing so many opportunities to so many people and no prospect of a viable alternative being developed. The prospect of losing access to Erasmus Plus should worry us all, especially as it looks to expand further and become more accessible to those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Erasmus Plus is one example of the extraordinary benefits of the European Union. That is what we are seeking to preserve in making the case for continued membership. If that is not possible, I join the committee in urging the UK Government to commit to securing the UK's position as a full programme participant in Erasmus Plus from 2021 onwards. Can I have Colin Clare Baker as deputy convener of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee to conclude the debate? Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is a pleasure to close this debate and it is my first time doing so as deputy convener. I would like to thank all members from around the chamber for taking part in this afternoon's debate, which has been an interesting discussion highlighting the key issues identified by the committee report. The consensus in the chamber in recognising the value of Erasmus Plus with many members highlighting work in their constituencies and agreement over the desire to remain within the scheme should send a strong message to the UK Government that we believe in its value should be recognised within the on-going negotiations and that any effort must be made to ensure that we still benefit from the opportunities that it clearly provides. I would like to thank all those who provided evidence for the committee report, as well as thanking Scotland's colleges and NUS for the briefing that they provided for today's debate. The committee was encouraged to see the increase of funding that Scotland has received from Erasmus Plus. In 2017, we received the highest ever allocation of Erasmus Plus funding. Nearly £21 million was awarded compared to £16 million in the previous year. That was explained to the committee as a consequence of it being the 30th year of the Erasmus programme with an increased profile and bigger budget, but also a continuing and growing appetite for international exchange. The funds benefited 159 Scottish organisations in the higher and adult education, schools, youth and vocational education and training sectors. As Graham Day said, this is surely the time to be engaging with the scheme, not leaving it. The main focus of the current seven-year Erasmus Plus programme is diversity and inclusion. NUS Scotland describes it as a driver for social mobility. As members have recognised, the programme has been successful and a big benefit to many young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, with Bob Doris speaking about Royston youth action. Young people have fewer opportunities and among those who rate the programme most highly. Many stakeholders gave us examples of how the programme had changed the lives of many young people, such as the Jack Kane Centre in Edinburgh and West Lothian College, who gave powerful evidence to the committee. This afternoon has been excellent in members highlighting the range of work that Erasmus Plus supports in their constituencies. The committee welcomes the Prime Minister's agreement in principle of participating in the programme until 2020, which provides a welcome degree of assurance for current participants, but members have emphasised their concerns about the future, which I will return to. The programme, although it has been most recognised for its involvement in universities, also supports colleges, youth work, schools and teachers, as well as a sports programme. The committee heard from Youth Link Scotland about just how valuable Erasmus Plus is to the work in Scotland. Youth Link explained to the committee that its funding goes a long way to support the sector. As Ross Greer identified, many youth work organisations are led by small teams of staff with limited resources. According to Youth Link Scotland, any loss of investment due to leaving the EU would present extreme challenges across its sector, which is already struggling to sustain the minimum level of services and project management. Rachel Hamilton and Tavish Scott talked about the work of schools and their constituencies. Marianne Sporling, in evidence to the committee, explained how vital it is for the international outlook of Scotland's young people and how it supports the implementation of the 1 plus 2 language policy in our schools. The committee also heard how important Erasmus is for teacher training and development from initial training to CPD. As Ian Gray said, only last week we learned the number of Scottish pupils passing forage language exams has halved over the past 10 years, although, encouragingly, the numbers achieving higher and advanced hires have increased. However, we need to look at expanding our opportunities for learning languages. Being able to work, communicate and trade with other countries is increasingly important to our economy. As Stuart McMillan identified, Jackie Killan spoke about the broader value of the scheme, the softer power of the UK cultural relations, the importance of mutuality of exchange, all fostering interest in doing business with the UK, visiting as a tourist or studying in the UK. Daniel Johnson made important points with the future of the programme, but he must have known that the Brexit babies would be the headline from the debate. Can we just keep the conversation down please? We can hear the member speak. Presiding Officer, many members got to the nub of the issue, which is what we face for the future, and Lewis MacDonald talked about how to protect and secure the benefits. A key concern for the committee is what will happen after 2020. The UK Government notes in its response to a report that no decisions have been made about post 2020 programme participation since the scope of the programme has not yet been agreed to. It is unfortunate that the UK is unlikely to have a reduced influence over the direction in its response to the committee. The Scottish Government has said that it is deeply concerned that the details of successor arrangements have yet to be proposed by the UK Government. The committee makes the case for the UK to maintain its status as a programme country after 2020. That type of participation is currently open to all EU member states, aceding countries and EFTA countries partied to the EAA agreement. Under current expectations of the direction of the UK Government is heading, that would make programme country status difficult to achieve, but if there is to be the possibility of a deal that must be pursued. It would be unfortunate if the UK is not able to secure programme country status as it would then not be able to take part in the full breadth of the programme, particularly those areas relating to sport, a benefit highlighted by Graham Day and Ian Gray. The committee considered the model that has been developed by Switzerland, which has a lesser status as a partner country after the introduced immigration restrictions. Stakeholders advise us that this is not desirable and should not be seen as a reasonable compromise, because it means that we cannot access the full breadth of the programme and it involves negotiating a complex bilateral agreement with the EU. That is why we are arguing for the UK's involvement in Erasmus Plus after 2020 to be prioritised in negotiations with the EU and for the UK Government to negotiate the UK's continued participation as a programme country. However, that raises complex questions. Where will it be prioritised within negotiations? How will it be compatible with UK immigration policy? What will the cost be if we are to continue? The committee has also considered what happens if that is not the outcome. The committee is also asking the Scottish Government to undertake sectoral analysis of the impact of the withdrawal from the EU in terms of Erasmus Plus and to consider ways that Scotland could continue membership. It has now been agreed in principle that the UK will continue participating in the programme until 2020, but the question remains what happens beyond 2020. Erasmus Plus is not the only concern of the further and higher education sector. The impact of Brexit is potentially damaging to the sector and there is a great deal of uncertainty around the future of the funding and exchange programmes. With Colleges Scotland saying that there is anecdotal evidence suggesting that the invitations to collaborate in European projects are already reducing. This afternoon, the committee is calling for the issue to be prioritised in the negotiations, because we all recognise that, given the strong evidence that we have heard, Erasmus Plus is too valuable for us to lose. That concludes our debate on Erasmus. The next item of business is consideration of business motion 12258, in the name of Joffice Patrick, on behalf of the bureau setting out a business programme. I will ask anyone who objects to say so now. I call on Joffice Patrick to move the motion. The question is that motion 12258 be agreed. Are we agreed? We are. The next item is consideration of two bureau motions, motion 12259 on committee membership and motion 12260 on committee substitution. I ask Joffice Patrick to move the motions. We turn now to decision time. The first question is that motion 12169, in the name of Joan McAlpine, on Erasmus, be agreed. Are we all agreed? We are agreed. The next question is that motion 12259, in the name of Joffice Patrick, on behalf of the bureau on committee membership, be agreed. Are we all agreed? We are agreed. The final question is that motion 12260, in the name of Joffice Patrick, on committee substitution, be agreed. Are we all agreed? We are agreed. That concludes decision time. We will move now to members' business, in the name of Rhoda Grant, on campaign for focus ultrasound device. We will just take a few moments for the members and ministers to change seats.