 All right, so welcome to the March 4th edition of the TSC meeting. I'm posting the call today as Arno is on a plane. So there's two things that you must do in order to attend this meeting, although I think everybody on this call already knows this. Obviously, the first thing is the antitrust policy notice, which is being displayed on the screen now. And the second one is to live by the code of conduct. So with that, let's go ahead and get started. So the first thing that we have is a set of announcements. The first one is the dev weekly developer newsletter. If you have any content, please consider adding comments to the wiki page to include that content in the weekly developer newsletter. This second thing here is the mentorship program. So a week from now is the timeline for all proposals being submitted to the mentorship program. So if you have a good idea, please submit the proposal. And then the last one is a week from tomorrow, the CFP for the hyperlegical form closes. Any other announcements that anybody might have. Okay, so the next thing is the quarterly reports. So we don't have reports from borough for the quarter and we don't have the quilt one yet. It was due this week. So the one that we do have is the cello one. Yeah, dinner. So bro is coming up on three weeks late for report and we didn't get a Q4 report at what point does this become an issue. Yeah, so. Arno and I were talking about this. We need to reach out to Silas to see about getting a report. We do see that there's activity going on in the actual GitHub repo so there's actual work being done it's not like it's been completely abandoned if you will. So we just need to reach out to Silas and see if we can get him to give us a report. So, Arno mentioned that he was going to do that. So we'll, we'll give him the opportunity to do that and see if we can get back a response from from Silas in the borough community. All right, so on the cello one. The only thing that I saw in the cello one was a call for front end developers. So if you or anyone you know might be interested in contributing to cello as a front end developer they are looking for people to contribute. But other than that I didn't see any other questions or concerns being raised does anybody have any any questions or concerns on this that we should raise on the call. I'll take silence as I know. All right, so the topic for today is to discuss how we come up with ideas of how we break down the silos. So, Arno has been requesting for, you know, the last week, two weeks for us to be commenting on these, these ideas around what came out of this discussion with the six. This one has had some discussion but it mostly focused on lab sponsors and thinking about that. And there is a discussion that's ongoing there. So what I wanted to specifically talk about with this particular one is the, the silos that we have within hyperledger and how we might go about breaking down some of those silos. So in thinking about the silos that we do have we've got the labs we've got the projects, the working groups, the stigs, even TSE could be considered a silo based on one of the emails that came out this week on the list that we, I think it was in the containers list actually that the projects don't often listen to the TSE and what we're coming up with. There's also been comments around knowing what the decisions are from the TSE so just want to open the floor and see if anybody has any ideas or thoughts. So this is our time to kind of brainstorm around how we go about breaking down the silos that we do have within hyperledger. Hi Tracy it's Bobby. Hey Bobby. I agree with the silos because every time I go to one of the SIG calls or the working group calls or one of the project calls the information that they have is is so important, but again it's just there. It's something that can be worked on I don't know if the newsletter is the way to communicate. I find that what the developers newsletter messages is awesome and it gets out to everybody. Maybe we can incorporate because communication is definitely one of the ways I think you can break down these silos. So maybe the newsletter is a way to, you know, once we have a centralized location for this stuff. So there it is for everybody to benefit from. Is that the right track of what you were talking about. That's a that's a good idea. So, how do we get people to contribute to the developer newsletter. I mean obviously we have a call every week on this, you know, we have a call on this call right every week to have people contribute but how do we. How do we spread that beyond just the people who are joining the call and get other people to recognize that this newsletter is really a community driven newsletter. Is there a column or something in the newsletter that you know like the TSC Chairman's column or something or you know what's going on in the TSC every, every week or something or. There's no, but there's no reason that it couldn't be the newsletter is for the developer community, which includes pretty much everybody on this call right to decide what the content is. And I see that both, I think Gary raises hand first and then David Boswell. Well, I'll just say I, I'll just, I'm kind of like a broken record, but I don't know how you break down barriers when you have no unified mission. There's no unification. Right. Right. It just not doesn't make sense right there is a pipeline from lab I mean, the theoretically was a pipeline from, you know, la, you know, starting out in labs right to become a real project right so we talked out at nausea in the last couple of meetings. Or, or at least that's in there but like, you know what I mean it's like nobody ever translates of all the things right I don't even know that I've ever seen anything that came out of a, and it might be true that this time I didn't miss it, that ever was a requirement written against the product. I've never seen it, right they write it in a document but we have G or get issues right nothing in there, right or then what are we actually trying to accomplish. So, I don't really know how you can have a breakdown barrier silos when there's no unified mission for hyper ledger. Every time I don't think there is one, I think it's a potpourri of things. And then you get a potpourri of things. You get silence. David. I have a couple things that have come up in different discussions that I'll share here because I think there are some concrete things we could do. Just to give one example. You know Tracy last year had, you know presented the idea of having contributed thongs and we've, you know recently presented on the idea of, you know we tried that last year and we present on the idea how that worked but the pilot effort that we did for that was looking at one project so I guess that was not helping break out the silos but I think there's the potential for doing these going forward in a way that it would break the silos so to point out two things where I think they could be good models for trying to address this issue. So for example we reached out to Dano to see if he would be interested in doing something to this and Dano correct me if I'm wrong but you were saying that you were interested in doing something that would be cross project collaboration so I think that would be a good example of addressing silos to address two different things so for example, Dan if I remember correctly you said if we did something for Bezu you would be interested in having it be focused on having Bezu work with Explorer and cello so that could be doing that could be a nice way of identifying where there are points of, you know, cross project efforts and then supporting those and you know we just saw in the cello reports that they're interested in having more fun and developers so maybe if we do that we can also get them some more attention so I think there are actually points where there's interest in some cross collaboration and if we foster that and show that it's a viable model maybe that would bring up more. And just to throw out one other example on Monday we had a conversation with the climate SIG about a lab they're doing and Peter from the cactus project came there because the SIG is interested in using cactus and he didn't want to hear what the requirements were he is invested in making sure that they could evolve cactus so it is something that they could use in that particular use case and they are also talking about figuring out ways that they can collaborate together so I think there are actually some examples out there I think it takes time and effort to go out and listen and hear what all of the 16 projects are interested in doing what all the active labs are doing and then somebody needs to do that brokering to see where there's overlap and then support those I think that is one thing that could be done. And there are some initial points there. I think the other thing goes to a conversation we had recently about how critical relationships are in an open source community and how people who don't have those relationships also sometimes get ignored. You know I think one thing that came up in that thread Tracy is talking about his mentorship, but I realize mentorship is a probably not the right word for that because there's a mentorship program and what we're talking about a separate from that so maybe we can come up with a better name for it based on I think if we help foster and build relationships that would help address some of these things and get people out of silos so one thing that I think came up in that thread would be. What if people on the TSC adopted one of the working groups or special interest groups or labs or what have you for a set period of time I mean it wouldn't need to be a huge commitment. You know one quarter two quarters and goes, you know, and they go to the regular calls they have relation, you know they do some relationship building activities, maybe have some one on ones with some of the key stakeholders but I think we could foster some of those, you know, relationships in that collaboration if we did have some sort of an active liaison effort. And again I think that's just community building best practices I think when you have the key stakeholders the key contributors in a community paying it forward and you know helping on board and bring new people into the fold. Those people then have those relationships and are then set up more for success going forward and have a better view of the landscape I think part of the issue that we live in silos is because people never have the opportunity to meet people outside of the groups they go to they go to the SIG meeting they go on the SIG chat channel or mailing list they're only in that one bubble like can we create some linkages across those places so I mean would people on the CSE be comfortable adopting a lab or a SIG or a working group for a set period of time. You know, I think those are two concrete things we could do. David a question for you, you mentioned Peter in the climate. SIG great. So, how did that come about was that because the SIG reached out on the cactus list, or did somebody have a relationship with Peter, like, what was the kind of the process where that happening. Well, Psy was a lot of this behind it so he may have a different story to say but I think some of it at least, I mean a lot goes to his credit for he was reaching out but a lot of it was Psy didn't even know where to begin reaching out so I go to those climate action calls regularly I heard that they were talking about being interested in other projects I kind of walked them through how do you communicate with those other projects and then again decides credit. I pointed in the right direction and understood the dynamics he then went to go talk have some conversations on this list so if you look at the cactus list mailing list for example you'll see. SIG reached out told him what they're doing had a discussion there so I think that's a really positive example if it's helpful for the group I can pull up the mailing the mailing list thread here so you can see but I did a lot of the heavy lifting but he had to. Somebody had to help him understand how the dynamic worked and again I think we have a situation where there's 70 plus places where you could go to have these discussions or and you could go define code that you might be able to, you know, do so. Somebody needed to help orient the climate group to understand what the landscape in the community even was to begin with right so. But once they had their bearings I think you know open source worked right. They showed up they had a scratch stitch they talked to the right people and now they're often running right. But there was kind of a liaison ish, you know starting point. Okay, other thoughts. I had a question for David are the two cactus and the climate SIG, like just talking about things or like people from the climate SIG actually starting to put code back into cactus. So here if it's helpful I can grab the link but so what the initial conversations here. It's interesting. It's telling me chat is disabled for some reason I don't know why that is. Yeah, I disabled that to drive it to. Oh to the rocket chat got you. Okay, why don't you and screen share your. No, no, I put on rocket chat. So I dropped on the rocket chat the lab so that yes that is starting so Peter is again I don't want to put words anybody's mouth but my understanding is Peter is motivated to understand what the requirements are for the lab, and he wants to have cactus. Do what the lab is wanting to do so I don't know if I don't believe Si or anybody in that group has yet delivered things it's still, you know, exploratory and initial we had a conversation on Monday. Without going into the weeds too much we're seeing if there's something we can do to help promote the lab for Earth Day because Earth Day is coming up in April so you know I joined to see if there's things that we could do to help kind of package up what they're doing and promote it out later in April and the cactus work is part of that so Peter had talked about going through the cactus. So that's a list of bugs tagging things not just as good first bug, but tagging them is you know specifically for that lab, and then once we have that list from from Peter, you know we can then work with Si and his group and then promote that out so I can go into the more of the weeds but that's the short version of the answer. If that's helpful. Yes, thank you. You know, correct me if I'm wrong but it sounded like you you I mean that was another example you sounded like you were interested in places where you know Bezu could work with other projects so we could do a similar thing with it understand where those touch points are documents and bugs as you know things where they're you know, use whatever tag we want you know good first issue plus you know, you know, Bezu or whatever. And I mostly got that from looking at the, at the greenhouse realizing that the only two projects that don't support, if they're directly where the exploring someone's just like we should just, you know, finish the list so that they're all and it helps these two projects to those two don't have a strong multi blockchain again as a generic tool either. So it strengthen both projects. And we could I mean there's, I mean if that's something we choose to do we can do, you know, the same thing that we're doing. You know, to promote these other contribution opportunities such as the fabric documentation translation or the bath lab stuff that we've shared here before so I mean that's it's within our power to do that if we want to foster a cross project collaboration. So, so far I've heard let me just recap what I've heard and see if this sparks in the additional thoughts from folks. I've heard communication is key and maybe we can use the developer newsletter, building on top of that is maybe including a what's going on in TSC in that newsletter every week and Gary said we need a unified mission, which I think I agree with Gary. We've contributed funds across projects, brokering or fostering relationships and David you also said another thing which I have wrote down which is, and I don't think he meant to say this but I think it's important the opportunity to meet others. This is another piece of this I think, you know we used to have the hackfest. Pretty much on a quarterly basis and that gave us the opportunity to meet people that we might not have other met otherwise met in the community. You know that that I think is a missing piece right as we've grown we've decreased those right and now we're not having those and obviously a lot of that is the environment in which we live today but you know that's something that maybe we could consider and think about. So, other things that that list of things has brought to your, your mind as something you'd like to contribute to the discussion. Anyone. With respect to hackfest those were typically more geared for the developers so that would improve cross project communication but it wouldn't necessarily necessarily help with SIGs right. I'm wondering with a CFP for the global summit. I don't know if it would be appropriate to discuss are we seeing proposals from the SIGs as well as projects or has it geared more towards just projects, if it's fair to comment on that or not, because that would be an opportunity for people to go and find out on the SIGs if the SIGs were doing presentations. I am not sure. And I don't know. I think Daniela or Marta might know that but I also don't know if we can disclose that at this point. Daniela. Sorry, what was the question. SIGs are SIGs responding to the RFP for for go for. I know many of them are planning on doing so because we've had a couple of you know queries and coaching questions from them. So I would say yes but you're right we can't disclose that yet. So the answer mark is absolutely we've encouraged the SIGs to do CFPs individually the SIG participants and also the SIGs as as a group to come up with themes to submit CFP talks based on the themes of those SIGs and the work that they've been doing within the SIG. It would be great if people from the TSC and others in the development community could go to those presentations if they're accepted or the ones that are accepted. That'd be great. Yeah, and we'd be happy to summarize those when they get finalized. To build on that I mean Daniela is right we have encouraged SIGs to submit to the global forum CFP and also the mentorship deadline which is coming up and I just dropped a link in the TSC chat as well some some groups have and just a flag if I remember correctly and presented about the to the TSC recently mentioned that the telecom SIG had submitted mentor proposals in the past but didn't get accepted so you know if if people at the TSC want to keep an eye out for any SIG related proposals this year that could be a potentially an interesting project. I'm going to propose something that I've put all of like several seconds into thought about. So this is a very rough idea. What if there was like a pitch slide. And a dozen words tops for each project, like what they want and how they want to work, you know, where they where they see opportunities, and we could have, you know, for each of the labs or the SIGs or whatever. We could just have a very like two item thing. This is who we are is what we do. This is where we need help, or this is what we would like to do. It would be easier than digging through Jira again it would add another point of contact but it would be a lot shorter, I don't know. Right it's an interesting thought I think one thing that came to my mind is can we use the hyper ledger Twitter account for something like that. I think it would expand beyond just the typical community, right. But, you know, I think the, what, who we are and where are we looking for other people to come join us is an interesting idea. Yeah, yeah, plus one. Daniela. No, yeah, just plus plus one as well but we've also discussed taking our job board, our public job board and you know renaming it but using that to, you know, basically advertise work or opportunities that people in the in the projects are looking for the working groups and the projects are looking for volunteers to work on. Yeah, that is another good idea that should be on the list because I think, Craig, my friend, I know or somebody else pointed out as well but I mean yeah sometimes the collaboration just doesn't happen because you just don't have the visibility into hey this other group is doing something that you know I'm also interested in there's just too many places for one person to, you know you can't read every list right, or every chat channel so if we, if we surface stuff that's happening might be easier to foster those collaboration points. Other thoughts. Mark, is anyone here on a working group. I know that Mark is a working group chair for the perfect scale and okay Bobby. Learning materials working group. And I'm an active member of the social impact sig and the public sector sig grace. I'm on the DCI working group. Is there any way that, you know, for those. Is there anything that we could do we this form could do to make more connections there between what the DCI working group and learning materials working group and purpose scale working group need or want is there. Do you see anything that any opportunities there. I think the global form is going to be a great showcase to expose what's going on in the working groups and sigs and again I'm encouraging the learning materials working group to submit something, and I know that. David can probably talk more about the meetups but I know that they're looking into doing something so I think just if for those of us who do sit in on the sigs in the in the working groups to encourage them to do a submission for the global form because people need to know what they're up to and that's the best place to get participants in consortiums. I think. For those of you who haven't spoken up yet. Any thoughts ago I saw you came off you. Oh, well, actually, I didn't mean to but I do I was going to raise my hand by just that by accident, I was just going to say, you know I was just thinking, you know, I made my, you know, comment as usual but some of the points here and then thinking like I know for example like you know from the documentation working group right we've actually had stuff that's been pushed in, but we ever had. We ever had like an end to end thread that was something such as and I heard some, I think, something that was like ASCIG or a working group right, let's say a, let's say a group or an industry group right comes up with something a use case they come up with some requirements to say, Alright, you know, maybe we should do like, like a hackfest around that with maybe the result being potentially a lab project and then, you know, looking at incubating that lab project into where does it fit into one of the existing projects or a new project. Have we ever had anything that steered that entire course. I know that the India regional chapters currently they're about to launch a hack. What's it called a hack. Is it run on. Yes, correct. A hackfest and working collaboration with the social impact. So that would be like, yes, I think we've had some paralyzed right like we had, anyway, I was just thinking that you know we were thinking about how could you define like how things more interact I was just thinking that maybe they're there when you hear all this sort of unify things between different, whatever pillars or groups like whether it be labs and projects or labs and whatever maybe like, maybe they're, I was just wondering if we ever actually had anything. And that's why I kind of meant like the unified kind of mission type thing right because you could have, you know, we came in with a bunch of requirements around this you wanted to prove out that, you know we need these we need to see these types of things in a blockchain platform. Hey, more people are interested in contributing to that could they, you know, do a hack fast proof it out kind of like we used to do early on maybe that results in the labs project and then maybe some other big project, either a new hopefully not a new project, but then somebody else sort of picks it up. Like, that's kind of what I kind of meant by like having a mission because if you kind of have like a mission, like an end state goal of what where you start from something and end with something. You get more interaction right but isolation is kind of driven by the nature that they are isolated. Except like document but like documentation is a good example because that's spread a lot of stuff, like in the groups and other things like that so we have them kind of, but I guess that you know just thinking way back right. Parts of the ideas of hack fast way back when and they never really resulted in that because they ended up being mostly getting users, you know, teaching people how to use existing projects. Anyway, I'll pause there. So I was just just a thought if we ever had one would be a good example or to use, but maybe we should see if there's something in play right now that might fit that bill. Yep. Other folks ideas. I know there's a lot of folks on the call haven't spoken up yet so this is your opportunity to add to add a twist to what we're thinking about as far as breaking down silos. Yeah. Sorry, I had to join late today because of a conflict so I don't know what the conversation is. Yeah, so we've been talking about ways to break down the silos between projects labs, working groups, the TSC. And so there's been it's mostly been a brainstorming sort of discussion and Nathan I see you have your hand up. So we're a volunteer organization and a lot of people are contributing based on their own, you know, current business plan. I think the biggest part is how do we increase the amount of exposure we have to each other's ideas. We've talked a lot about having different groups come and present to one another. We've talked about, you know, what happened at a lot of the hack tests in the past where you try to get people from different projects and six to sit at the same table and talk about what they were working on. Really, I think one of the questions here is how do we get as many opportunities we can for people to brush shoulders with each other so that when there is an opportunity. As a community realize it more quickly, and are able to mobilize people who find that problem interesting. And, you know, we've had struggles getting people to contribute content to the newsletter that's a great chance to try to promote your idea, or to promote something you think deserves more attention. I think we're not going to be very successful when we try to make a procedure that forces people to collaborate, or tries to artificially push people to go to a group that they don't are very naturally motivated to go to. But the more we can create tools that bubble these ideas up so, you know, as part of a report we see it or as part of the newsletter we see it or as part of the regular, you know, working group means that you're already attending. There's some influence or some announcements about what's going on outside of your own bubble, the better. I don't know that I have specific ideas on how to make that happen other than, you know, every time we're doing an event we need to think about how do we share what's going on outside or outside of that particular group, or how do we make those opportunities for people to talk to one another like having an unconference day at global forum or having, you know, the net is ways of creating that kind of networking table type things that we've done in the past. I think at one point early, early this year, late last year, at the last global forum because it's March again. There was a decision made by the TSC that the project should share their RFCs with with a larger group, right, like make an announcement of a new RFC that's been created within their project. We haven't seen any RFCs be announced anywhere. Obviously that's trying to force that communication to happen. But yet it was a attempt at the idea of making people understand what's happening outside of their bubble. So, you know, I think we've we've tried we've not succeeded so we need to find a different way to try and make that happen and so there's ideas around, you know, that others might have right because I think Nathan and I both recognize a challenge and probably everybody on this call recognizes that challenge but is there a way for us to solve that challenge. I had one thought and I'll drop the link into chat. And here, let me share my screen to, you know, we're talking about breaking out of bubbles and we're talking about maybe the newsletter being that channel I mean I guess one concern with that is that it needs to be manual so as we're having this conversation it occurred to me that from the Mozilla community they have a nice. This is what something they call Planet Mozilla but it's effectively trying to break out bubbles Mozilla itself is a huge community with different parts of it so this is more of a just an automated aggregator. Again, I think maybe one of the downsides of the newsletter processes that again people have to manually remember to do that so this is just something that kind of is automated so I don't know if maybe considering something like this is there some way to just automatically aggregate conversations I know we talked about automatically aggregating perhaps issues that different projects have, you know, submitted in their different project areas but this would be a similar thing but aggregating different types of conversation, some sort of aggregator or mailing list aggregator, or, you know, what have you Twitter aggregator with some sort of thing that aggregates conversations to one place could could help break bubbles so just this occurred to me while we're talking so just wanted to share this to go ahead. One thing that I was looking into, thank you Tracy was, you can tag, or can you tag like releases, or anything other than get up issues. So my thought was, we have this thing that automatically aggregates bugs with good first issue. Is it possible to tag a discussions and some of the, or several of the projects have enabled get up discussions for their projects like fabric has that. Can those be tagged, can release be tagged as this is important or PR be tagged without an associated bug. I haven't got to the end of that, but if those items can be tagged, then that might be a way that we can feed some of this data automatically. And you mentioned that we do have an aggregator for good first bugs across type of ledger is that true. We have a get a plug, we have a plug in for confidence. And it does pull good first issues for a project, but I have not looked to see if I can pull it across an org. Yet, I will do that now. That's actually where I was going to go, where we both started talking at the same time is I, you know, we, and one of the other mailing list items that came out of the same was this idea of having an aggregation of those good first issues across right, or and not only across the repos but also kind of the request form from SIGs, or working groups or any, any sort of, you know, folks within the hyperledger community of things that they need help with. Right. And so I think that could be a interesting, if we could get a place where you could go one place you could go and see all of this sorts of, you know, requests for help if you will, that that would be I think a really great, great start to selling some of this. Agreed. Here is the bath version of this plugin. So this is automatically, you know, rendered whatever you visit the bath page. Cool. So the next step would be, so this is the query right here. The next step would be to see if I can make that query larger in scope. So, I think even right we could do something where it's per project or per lab. Right. I mean, obviously that makes it a bit more difficult because there are kind of repos so there's something that can be automated that's that's obviously better. Other other thoughts other ideas. Is it the silo that we are trying to break across projects or is it that gap which we are trying to avoid from users or new contributors with hyperledges, because they both go in different streams. And I think there's, I think there's so many silos, right. And then we're just looking to see if there's ways that we can come up with as ideas for breaking silos, any of the silos right breaking down the silos, getting people to talk to one another, getting people to recognize that there's more stuff going on out there than than they may realize, you know, being, being able to foster and foster those relationships, right. So, one thing from I can tell you from India chapter made things because I, I lead that aspect as well right so many people come to the call and they say, Hey, I'm new to blockchain and I'm new to hyperledge of they say okay I'm new to hyperledge of the fabric and when I read the documentation, it's so difficult I don't know where to start contributions. And one of the ask which I always make on the call is, Hey, you're all technical developers why don't you see that there are a few things and you have your free time you want to get involved. Here are the ways in which you can get involved. So they feel it, even even if we do it per project, they still feel it. Okay, I may not have enough information on the project to get started. So, where I what I was thinking about is, can we have something like a here are the issues which are purely, I mean, you don't need to know deep into specific project. It is more about let's say setting up some CI pipeline, if you know how this service works, then this, this is all good if you know how get up action works. This is all good you go there pick it up, start working on it. This is a way in which you can get introduced to the team at least and that that will further you into that specific project for contributions. And the same thing could happen for documentation contributions, or even if we can break it down till the level where we say, here is, here are the issues which will not require you to know deep into any of this, probably this is related to an example application, or this is related to purely a programmatical aspect of it. You get involved in it. So that could be a way, but I don't know how to achieve it. Maybe requires more tooling efforts or something that we need to develop which we don't have at all. And one other thing which I, which I'm personally working on with one of my team member is trying to figure out how many long pending PRs to we have on hyper ledger, right. I see few of them in fact one of my PR is still waiting for more than two years now. Literally from the time I submitted and that time I was still like in my previous company. So these kind of experiences for new developers would really be a concern from the community. So I'm trying to get that metric out and I wrote a simple tool to pull all the PRs which are pending for a long time. And similarly, if we can do those kind of things with the reason I like this GitHub issue tagging is is that we can really come up with those kind of tags which will define us or help us saying that you want to get involved into it and you are a Java developer or you are good at documenting things that you are expert in specific language and here are the opportunities for you. And another concern from within the projects is one of the concern which I hear at least is so people think that they don't see a value in attending common meetings. And this kind of comment I hear also for TSC meetings unfortunately so people think that TSC meetings are way beyond what they should be attending. So I see one way to bridge that would be let's say we pick up projects which which is not tied to one specific framework or platform example explorer right so that that could be developed or modeled for any of the lectures and maybe Aries. There is an open opportunity for somebody to go in and develop like some interface which would abstract that away from indie or if it is already done then that's still good right so those kind of aspects are where we can think about bringing together silos across different projects. And we'll list down those and try to target through maintainer summits for those aspects. So I agree I'm showing here on my screen. Like the oldest open one is 1084 days or sawtooth. So there are a lot of ancient PRs. And we saw this. What do you what exactly are you trying to solve though, what does solve mean I guess I should what's your definition of solve ours. We should not. I mean we should not be having this kind of experience for first time contributors. Well, did you look, did you actually look in the poll request and the first time contributor actually go back and ask if anybody has looked at it. And tell you from my own experience right which is waiting for a long time. Yeah so on this one it looks like there were changes requested in May of 2018. So, I mean this is just for specific PR, but you know. Sometimes I wonder if maybe as a TSC we could put together some maintainer training. I know one thing that we had a lot of success with it for, I shouldn't say we that the salt project had a lot of success with is they had someone who was assigned to actually do the first hit is free on pull request so when you came to the project with a new contribution. There was a maintainer who would help you make sure your first pull request landed successfully. And part of that was to help teach new contributors, how the style guides work, how code quality checks work, all those things that might not be obvious when you first want to try to help. And really increase the amount of developer retention that they had and help make the community feel a lot more welcoming. Now obviously, not all of us have the same level of resourcing, or the same ability to do that but is, are there some things we can, I know we pay attention to metrics around diversity of contributors we pay attention to some metrics about releases. We pay attention to some metrics about how long until people respond to a bug or how long until people respond to a pull request. Is there something we can do to help put this in the maintainers, or in the minds of all the maintainers. Good point. Sean, Sean Jeremy. One of the things that I'm very keen on is it has some sort of code of conduct for maybe that's not the right word, but some sort of guide for maintainers. So, so if someone needs a project, they can kind of look at the workflow of a project and see that they can expect a PR to be sort of reviewed in a week or so, or two weeks or so. And also that's if a project isn't behaving according to that code of conduct, there should be some sort of pressure applied in some sort of way, because this really doesn't look very good. It really puts people off when pull requests are answered or not taken seriously. Yes. I don't know how this can be enforced in the Hyperledger. Probably can't. That's something along those lines. Yeah, I seem to recall that we've talked about like best practices, right for maintainers in the past, but I don't think that's ever gotten any traction. I really like the stripa idea, if you will. I had one my very first contribution to fabric and that helped a lot, right. I didn't know Garrett at all and so just getting through that process was was quite painful, even though all I was trying to do is like make a spelling issue, right fix. So I think these are all really good ideas. Mark. Yeah, okay. Yeah, Dave. Right so on the project reports we recently had people put the link to their insights. Dashboard or whatever. So perhaps we put like an average age of PRs is there I don't know if that's easily available right but if people could you know self enforce by putting that in their report and we ask people to put that in their report. And I would like them thinking about it and talking to the other maintainers about how can we reduce this metric. If I could like. Yes, and what I would ask the TSE to do and I asked this on I think on the fabric call and on the Ursa call yesterday was to give us which is to say me, a concrete set of requirements to feed to the product team. So what you want as, for example, as a badge, or as a report. Hyperledger is way ahead of the curve for links foundation. So you have a great opportunity to give input on what you're asking for what they should look like. So, Mark. Yeah, I was actually going to take it a step further. And say, you know, we've talked about requirements and the badging. You know that if anything the project should be making time to go through and clean up the old ones that may not be applicable anymore. But again, you know this happens. Outside of, you know, like within red hat I know it happens that some of the old ones just sit there forever. They've cleaned up some of mine from 2010 recently. So, but you know there's a housekeeping that needs to happen and does that become one of the metrics we look at for a project. As we review all of that I don't want to open that can of worms right now for this call but you know do we look at it as part of your status is how many old PRs you have and what you're doing. Nathan. Well, and I think Mark's got the right of it in terms of it's about housekeeping sometimes I think the age of PR is not necessarily the right metric but how active it is or if it's been being ignored on the balance of things. We often try not to be rude to someone and not be confrontational. And so, you know, instead of telling someone to jump in the lake, we tell that we just ignore them all together and it turns out that that second scenario is worse. Because then they don't know where they stand, whereas if we can give them some clear feedback, they know what to do next. So, this gets back to rise comment of we need to have this conversation of metrics thread of, you know, it's okay to use a pull request is kind of a working branch or you know working discussion, and it's okay for those discussions to take a long time. We have metrics that give us meaningful outcomes in terms of helping people feel invited, helping them feel included, and helping them feel successful. Yeah, I think you get what you measure right and isn't being ignored by the by the maintainers is it being ignored by the person who originally created the PR right who's ignoring it and what's the reason for that ignoring happening so pull requests, you can say needs info or so. So you can, if you can put a tag on it if it needs input from the submitter. I think you're next. I just wanted to bring up a point that I understand that auto close is not an option or people may not like it, but we could at least have auto remind that kind of bots running, which will remind maintainers. Here is a PR maybe you overlooked into because you are visit lost time. Maybe this is a chance for you to go back and look into ones. I think there's been some good ideas here too but but but I guess in the end right. Sometimes we I don't know I always feel like I mean maybe I've had some bad experiences and other open source or whatever stuff is in here I think there's a lot of things like Nathan said that happened right. There's definitely the notion that we people do read it but they don't comment because they're afraid I get that so we should probably you know, you know put that out there. I understand right so if you if you if you come in, and you issue a poll request, and it doesn't get either for whatever reason right to get yet ignored. Nobody wants it it gets rejected or whatever. I mean, the minute you move on to another project you have to make a decision what you want to do you know with that project so I guess, again, I sometimes I go back to what are we. What do we think this is the whole thing, or, or should we have a forum that somebody can complain to or write to or whatever right it's like hey we've been contributing this critical stuff and nobody wants to accept our changes. There's a variety of things right but I don't know I think I'm just going to put it out there I think we like to coddle a little too much, like, and then we want to like track people to what they've done it. I don't know. I don't know. I just, I'm not sure what we're trying to solve all the time right that we think that somebody's just going to come in or whatever has anybody intentionally ignore people probably not. Right. Just seems like we want to do a lot of coddling and I think people need to learn how to work in open source and that's the net of it. Sean. Just answer that. Contributions will move on to another project if the PRs are getting ignored. So this is all about open source projects are competing for contributors. That's what you're doing as an open source project, you're finding contributors. You're not handling your, your request for information or your PRs or the issues. Well, the contributors will go away. So that's what you're trying to achieve. And there are too many, obviously too many PRs and issues which are not getting responded to. So if you have a guide for for computers, we would use for what, which could say something like if your PR has no answer, then go to this, this rocket channel and say, please can have some feedback please or something like that because now people don't know what to do to just go away and start computing on the project. That's very one last thought before we get any close. Well, I was just going to say, but you bring up an interesting point Sean right and then maybe that was the reverse of my point right the project itself itself like you reap what you sell right so if you don't accept contributions you don't follow stuff that's in there then people will just stop won't contribute to your project. Good point. Okay. So I know we're, we're hitting very close to the top of the hour. I want to thank you guys for actually making this an hour long discussion. I really thought we would go no longer than a half an hour so I think there's been a lot of really good points that have been brought up today. We'll try and put my notes that I have into the meeting notes and let's see what we can do to make some of these things a reality. So with that, I am going to close the call. Can you be sending out a poll for us to judge your performance Tracy. Not at all.