 Good afternoon, everybody. I'm very pleased to welcome you to the IEA webinar, which is part of the Global Europe project supported by the Department of Foreign Affairs. We're particularly welcome and delighted to be joined today by Commissioner Ildir Johansson, the European Commissioner for Home Affairs, who has been generous enough to take time out of her schedule to speak to us. Commissioner Johansson will speak to us on asylum and migration and asylum in the EU for about 20 minutes or so, and then we will go to question and answer with the audience. You'll be able to join the discussion using the Q&A function on Zoom, which you are well aware of. I think at this stage it's on your screen, and please feel free to send your questions in throughout the session, as they occur to you. And we will come to them when Commissioner Johansson has finished her presentation. Just a reminder that today's presentation and the Q&A are both on the record. And please feel free also to join the discussion on Twitter using the handle at IEA. We're also live streaming this morning's discussion. So a very warm welcome to all of you who are tuning in via YouTube. Just to introduce now the Commissioner to you. Firstly to mention that Commissioner Johansson as Commissioner for Home Affairs has a very wide view. She deals obviously with migration and asylum, security in the EU on external borders, which includes Schengen and visas, etc. And also relations with third countries in the area of security. The Commissioner will update us on the considerable progress that has been made in the area of asylum and migration, and that's particularly true I think Commissioner in the in the past year during 2023. And asylum and migration, so one of the foremost challenges of our era and are definitely to up in the same importance and challenge as climate change, global insecurity. So we will be very interested to hear the moves that have been made in this regard. Now let me just formally introduce Commissioner Johansson and hand over to her. Commissioner Johansson was appointed European Commissioner for Home Affairs in December 2019. And she previously served as Minister for Employment in the Swedish government from 2014 to 2019 Minister for Welfare and elderly health care from 2004 to 2006 and Minister for Schools from 1994 to 1998. She is educated at Lund University and the Stockholm Institute of Education. So without further ado, I will hand over to the Commissioner. And we look forward to hearing from you on this extremely important topic, Commission of the floor is yours. Thank you very much. And I would like to start by reminding us all that when we talk about migrants and refugees we are talking about people, human beings and I would like to start to save a few words on a young girl. Her name is Eslada. She lives now in in Ireland. She was six years old when she had to flee Putin's rockets. And she found a welcome home in Ireland. And a school in Dublin, just two weeks after the Russian invasion. She was so scared the first day, she would not let go of her mother. But now, one year later, 16,000 Ukrainian children are enrolled in Irish schools, 90% of five to 12 years old. That's very impressive and that's one of the highest rates in Europe. And you can rest assured that these Ukrainian boys and girls will never forget their time with you. Learning and playing with Irish boys and girls. It reminds actually operation Shamrock, when Ireland welcomed children from France and Germany and other countries after the Second World War. Nearly 80 years later, those children, now old men and women, still remember the time in Ireland. So you can be sure that after Putin loses the war and Ukraine joins the European Union. These Ukrainian children will tell their children and grandchildren about the strong bonds of friendship with their Irish classmates and their families. I wanted to stop with this because it's important to talk about human beings. And I would like, I will go into the update on the latest development on the pact on migration and asylum. But before doing that, I would also like to give you a little bit of an overview when it comes to migration on a European level. Every year to the European Union, we have around 3 million migrants coming legally that get a residence permit in the European Union. 3 million per year. They come because they are falling in love in the EU citizens or because they are here to study or to do research or to work. Part half of them are coming for work purposes actually. And every year around one, one and a half million Europeans are leaving the EU. Mainly because they have falling in love in a person outside the EU or to study or to work or to do research. So this is the normal migration flows means that we grow with approximately one and a half million people per year on legal migration. And this works very well. Every year around 700,000 third country national gets an EU citizenship. That means that many of those are staying here for a long time and really being part of our society. Last year, we had 330,000 irregular arrivals, which was higher than the years before. And this is really an area of concern and I'll come back to that. 330,000 irregular arrivals. At the same time, we had one million asylum application last year in the European Union. Three times more than the irregular arrivals. That means that the majority of those applying for asylum are arriving legally. They are coming visa free or they are coming on visas and overstay and apply for asylum or they already have a residence permit or a refugee status in one member state and then go to another member states and apply for asylum. So these are the overall figures on the migration in European Union. So what is important for me when I took this office in December 2019. Migration is something normal. Migration has always exist. Migration will always exist. Migration will never stop. Our task is to manage migration and migration is manageable, but it takes that we work close together to manage migration. And when I took office, it was a situation in the EU where there were a lot of, the whole area of policymaking legislation was totally blocked. It's been a state made for many years. There was also a situation where there were lack of trust between member states and between member states and the Commission. And if you allow me, I think there was also in situation there were a lot of room for maneuver for drama queens or drama kings to make a lot of noise around migration. So that was my task. I was tasked by myself on the lion to unblock the block situation and find an agreement on the new pact of migration and asylum. And I realized that the first thing necessary was to rebuild trust and try to understand the different positions from different member states, but also for other stakeholders from NGOs from you and organization from European Parliament, of course. So I started traveling to all capitals and reaching out to all stakeholders to understand the situation. And what I learned is that all member states are very occupied with the challenges they are facing when it comes to migration. And there was a situation that they were not so much aware of challenges that others are facing, even though these challenges are very much linked to each other. So that's how I worked to present my new pact on migration and asylum that I presented in September in 2020. And when I presented this proposal, it's a huge one, it's 11 legislative, legislative files in the whole pack. So it's a huge one. And when I presented it, nobody was really happy. And I was asked how I see this reaction. And I think it was a great success. Why? Because nobody rejected. It was a situation where all stakeholders said more or less, okay, maybe this is not really what I wanted, but this is worth looking into and start negotiating on. And I think this has been part of the success that we have reached so far, that this has not been rejected, this has not been blocked. It was a balanced proposal that everybody more or less, from different perspective, thought it was worse working on. So that what we have been doing, of course, with all the legislative negotiations and works and going into the nitty gritty and details on all the files, both in council and parliament. But to be able to reach agreements, it was necessary to rebuild trust, as I said. And that means that we had to deal with all the migration challenges that we are faced with. And just to mention a few that's been since I took office in December 2019. When I took office, there were 42,000 migrants on the living on the Greek islands under the olive trees, more or less, under unacceptable conditions. Do you remember that? And then only a few months later, we saw from Turkey, from Erdogan, that try to say that he will open the borders to send migrants to European Union. Then the COVID happened, and a few months later, the whole big camp Moria on Lesbos was burnt down totally. I managed to get member states to step in to do voluntary return, especially of unaccompanied minors, but also families with six children. And more than 5000 has been relocated from that respect. And we set up a lot of support for building better capacities in Greece. And we also had the Lukashenko, who tried to instrumentalize migrants, and this is still ongoing, more or less sending, selling tickets to the European Union. Tickets not for him to sell, saying that you can buy this ticket from a state to be transferred into the European Union through the borders via Belarus to the neighboring countries. We've been dealing with that, and we've managed, especially while we read out to third country and to airline companies. It's been more or less under control, but we see a rise now via Russia, really, and Lukashenko is really going from bad to worse, I should say, when it comes to his cooperation with Putin. So a huge increase of arrivals to the Canary Islands, and this is the most deadly route towards the European Union. A lot of these small kayukos left from Morocco, from Mauritania, from Senegal, and a lot of lives lost. We managed to get this situation as well, and now we have much fewer arrivals along these deadly routes, thanks to good cooperation with third countries like Morocco, Senegal, and Mauritania. We had last fall a huge increase along the western Balkan route, mainly because of visa-free traveling into Serbia. We saw a huge increase of asylum applicants from India, from Cuba, from Burundi, people that could travel visa-free to Serbia. We reached out jointly, member states and commission, and now the flows and the arrivals via the western Balkan routes is going down significantly. Right now we have a huge challenge with the central Med route. This is also a very deadly route where we've seen a huge increase of departures from Tunisia and Libya. And just yesterday my president was in Tunisia and also managed to agree on a Membranova understanding together with Tunisia in a comprehensive way. And on top of that, we are managing the biggest refugee crisis since the Second World War, a war in Ukraine with more than 4 million Ukrainian displaced persons in the European Union. And we managed to activate the temporary protection directive that's been there for 20 years but never been used. And we are, of course, supporting member states heavily also on this. These are just a few examples. On that we also had a Taliban takeover in Afghanistan, where member states stepped up and helped a lot of Afghan refugees on humanitarian admission into the European Union. Why am I mentioning this? I think that the way we are managing migration challenges and sometimes even crisis together, commission and member states jointly. It's a way to build trust. And without this, it would not have been possible to reach the agreement that we have so far when it comes to the Pact of Migration and Asylum. And I should also say it would not have been able to activate the temporary protection directive either without these work on trust building and showing that migration is manageable if and when we work together and also when we work together with partners outside European Union and of course international partners as well. And where are we now on the Pact of Migration and Asylum? I said that there's 11 legislative files. Five are already concluded. Four of them are now in trial log, which is the legislative process where parliament and council negotiate. There was a major breakthrough on the 8th of June when the council managed to find a common approach on two very big, very difficult and sensitive files on responsibility and solidarity, the so-called asylum procedures regulation and the Managing Migration Regulation of something, So that was a major breakthrough. So now we have four trial logs ongoing in a very constructive spirit between council and parliament. And we have two more to start negotiations. One is the crisis proposal where council need to find their position and the Spanish presidency aim at the common approach on the 26th of July on the crisis proposal, of course to be seen, but then trial log can start on that as well. Then we have the return directive where council have a position but parliament does not have a position yet. So hopefully they will have a position in the beginning of September and then trial log can start on that as well. So what we are aiming at is to conclude these remaining six ones, hopefully before the end of this year, before the end of the Spanish presidency. To have the months in 2020 next year, before parliament split, to have the formal decisions so that the whole pact could be agreed together during this mandate. Will that happen? Yes, I think so. But of course, fingers crossed and all that, it's always a heavy work to have this trust and to have these negotiations. But so far we have had a broad and solid majority in the council because the decisions have been taken by a qualified majority. And also in parliament most of the file has been agreed upon between the three big political groups. And I think this is also important that we are not finding the compromises at the end of any political spectrum. So we are really finding a comprehensive approach that will lead to a better protection of our external border. Making sure that those that are not eligible for protection will have a swifter process and a swifter return decision because this is important. Those not eligible to stay also have to be returned to the country of origin. At the same time, a better protection of the individual rights and especially for the vulnerable ones, for children, for other vulnerable groups in protection of their rights and their reception facilities, for example, to have the proper system. But also now for the first time ever council has agreed on numbers for relocation and for mandatory solidarity between member states. And I think this is a very, very important step. There are a lot of details, of course, I'm happy to answer that. But overall, we are very close to a situation where we have overcome the block situation and can deliver a more modern, a more European and a more comprehensive pact and agreement and the legislative agreement to manage migration and asylum. But on top of that, we need to continue to work closely together with third countries, countries of origin, countries of transit, countries along the routes so that we do not wait until we have people suffering at our borders that we reach out even earlier. And this is also a very important part, even if it's not really in the legislation. Thank you. Thank you very much Commissioner for that overview. And I think you deserve a great, great support and wonderful acknowledgement of the progress you have achieved since 2020 in taking this difficult topic from the national to the European. And that has been an amazing success. And as we have seen in the Justice Council and the European Council. I will go to question and answer. And before doing that, may I ask anybody who has a question, if they could indicate their name and affiliation. I should mention that we have to finish at 20 past four so I would be grateful if the questions could be short and so that we can get in as many as possible. Just before we go to the questioner's commissioner, I just have a would ask you a view on the outcome of the last European Council where Poland and Hungary did not accept the proposal, and therefore it could not feature in the Council conclusions. You have spoken about using the majority voting, and that this, the Constitution allows that. Could you just tell us what the situation is, and will we be able to move forward on your plan in this in this regard. Yes, we'll be able to move forward according to the treaty. We should take decisions on migration with qualified majority and that's what we do in the Justice and Home Affairs Council. And when we had this breakthrough agreement, only two member states voted against. And I think that was a big success, actually to have that solid majority. In the European Council, they take the conclusions with unanimous unanimously. So that is more difficult, but the decisions are taken with qualified majority and that is what the treaty says that we should do. And really, it's not a good idea to have a veto system when it comes to these important issues that it's really necessary that Europe managed together. Thank you. Thank you. So I hope that that can move forward. Just some questions that have come in from the from listeners. Joan was a former Irish Minister for Justice asks, what is the current status of the Dublin Convention? Is it still in full use at the moment? Yes, it's still valid, the Dublin Convention and it's being used. There was huge hiccups during pandemic, I must say. So we are now agreed with all the 27 member states on a roadmap back to Dublin. You step by step, going back to a more functioning Dublin system. So it's still there. In my proposal on a new pact of migration and asylum, there are changes in the Dublin regulation. And if you look at the agreement reached by Council, they have even bigger changes. Of course, this needs now to be negotiated with the Parliament. But I think there's a good guess that the outcome will be that we still have a Dublin system, but there will be some significant changes also into the system after we have finalised the negotiations between the co-legislators. Thank you. Thank you for that. Another question from Francesca Pinotti, advisor of the Council of Europe asks, will clear human rights safeguards be included in the cooperation agreement with Tunisia? So maybe you could tell us, I know yesterday, it's a very recently signed agreement, but maybe you could speak a bit about the agreement that has been signed with Tunisia because I know there was, there were difficulties with this agreement. Obviously, these have been overcome, but the question regards human rights safeguards in the agreement with Tunisia. So the memorandum of understanding is a very comprehensive one that covers five different areas, not only migration, but a lot of other areas and was signed yesterday. As you said, I will be giving a statement and answer question on this in Parliament tomorrow, and that will be my moment on that. But of course, it's always important for us to, especially when it comes to the individual's migrants, to always prioritise the fundamental rights. Thank you. Thank you for that assurance. Former retired officer Brigadier General Aharon asks, is there a risk of emerging a front-experceived as a bad actor regarding uncontrolled refugee and migrant entry into the EU? I think the role of front-ex is going to be considerably extended and including outside the EU. So perhaps you could mention, have a word about the role of front-ex. Yes, it's not a secret that there have been a lot of criticism and rightly so, I should say, about how front-ex acted previously. And out of that, actually the outcome was that the executive director and also others resigned. And now we have a totally new leadership in the front-ex with a new executive director, three excellent deputy executive directors. We have a fully fledged fundamental rights officer in place with all the 40 fundamental rights monitors in front-ex. And I must say that I'm very satisfied with how front-ex are dealing with difficult situations, but of course can occur at our external borders. And I must say that I think it's very important that we have front-ex. Front-ex are also the European eyes and ears at our borders. And I think that this is something that has been recognized and also something that, for example, with this recent terrible tragedy with a shipwreck outside the Greek coast. I think I hear many voices that asked for even more presence of front-ex at these situations. Thank you, Commissioner. Just a supplementary question on that. You mentioned the Balkan route. Do you think this extension of front-ex mandate will have an impact on improving the situation on the Balkan route for refugees? Yes, it has. We have now signed new agreement with several of the Balkan partners. And front-ex are deployed at many of the borders right now. And this is really a win-win situation where front-ex officers are supporting the national border guards, but also it's a learning situation. This is also a way for the Balkans to be more prepared for their path towards an EU membership on how we should protect our borders, how we should protect fundamental rights at our borders, and how we work jointly on these. And especially when we see, we see actually a lot of, not only migrants are being smuggled, we see also a lot of cross-border crime. Organized criminal groups are unfortunately quite present also on the Western Balkans. We see fraud documents, we see smuggling of drugs, of weapons. Some of these weapons ends up in the streets of the EU member states. So it's increasingly important that we support the Balkan partners on increasing and developing their law enforcement, both on legislation, but also on the practice on the ground. Yes, thank you for that. The next question relates to third countries and the EU relationships with third countries, which falls, I know, very much into your mandate. Valerie Hughes, who's a friend of the Syrian community in Ireland, asks about reports of people being disappeared at the Syrian border and asks what the EU is doing to protect Syrian refugees in Lebanon and Turkey from being sent back to Syria. I don't know if the EU responsibility would extend to that kind of oversight. No, it's true that there are limits to what we can do from the commission on from the EU. But for example, one thing is that we are supporting Syrian refugees in Turkey. They are hosting almost four million Syrian refugees in Turkey. And one reason to do that is that we will not support them being sent back to Syria. So this is a way we can work on it, but it's also true that we can't be, we are not a world police. So we can, via our support and our agreements, of course, we will not agree of people being treated, not according to their rights or being sent to dangerous areas. But we can't, it's not realistic to see that we can prevent everything of this to happen anywhere in the world either. Yes, yes, the mandate is quite extensive. And it's difficult, as you say, even in the most egregious circumstances to to extend the EU mandate. I have a couple of questions, Commissioner on the voluntary solidarity mechanism from Ruhi Ahmad, a program director in Griffith College Dublin and a student Jacob Churpec. The question of the solidarity mechanism, how do you, how do you, could you share your thoughts on how you see the future of the solidarity mechanism because this has been a point of some difficulty. Yes, of course, this is part now of the trial of the negotiations between Parliament and Council. And so this has to be finalized, but I can see that in my proposal, I proposed a mandatory solidarity when a member state is under pressure and needs support from other member states. Other member states should be obliged to step in to support. The Council general approach supports this and the Council general approach is also very clear that the member state that would provide solidarity to another member state can choose by themselves what kind of solidarity. It could be relocation. It could be financial contribution. It could be in kind contribution. So this and the different kind of contribution should be equally valid, valued. So, so it's, there is not any mandatory relocation, but a mandatory solidarity where member states can choose what kind of solidarity. What is I think a good improvement that what made in the Council general approach is also that they made clear that if a member state themselves are under pressure. So take, for example, countries like Czech Republic and Poland, right now, hosting so many Ukrainian displaced person. If you are in that position, you are not obliged to take part in solidarity measures towards another member states who could also be benefiting yourself from solidarity measures. So I think this was important and this was the better lessons learned from the, from the war and all the Ukrainian refugees that it's important that a member state that are doing a lot in another part of migration management will not be obliged to take part in the mandatory solidarity towards another member state that is under pressure for other reasons. Thank you. I think you've already answered the question that Jacob to had asked on behalf of Czechia of the Czech Republic, I think, because of the number of migrants that they have and the refugees they have taken in you have mentioned that there's an exemption for the moment from from the solidarity clause. The, the, you had recently signed very recently signed a pact with a security pact with Moldova between the EU and Moldova, which you have praised for obvious reasons as likely to be very significant and and a success. Do you see this as as an example of other types of security cooperation in the migration area. Not really. This is specifically on security and not specifically on migration. And the reason is, of course, is two or three fall one Moldova is one of the weakest European countries when it comes to security. And they are so close and so much affected by the Russian invasion in Ukraine. They may be one of those most affected by Russian propaganda and the risk of Russians reaching out also to Moldova, especially the situation with Transnistria as as you know. And Moldova is also a candidate country that will become hopefully EU member. So for many reasons, there are many reasons why we should I wanted to answer possibly to the request from the Moldovan Minister of Interior to support them when it comes to internal security. And that's what also what we are doing with our agencies with Europol, with Frontex, with Sepol, but also I reached out to member states and now member states are also supporting. There's a lot of equipment they need. There are a lot of expertise they need. And this and this brings together in this security hub. And that has been exactly one year since we launched it. And I think it's been really successful so far. So it's proven that we can together support Moldova significantly without very big efforts on our side. But when we join our forces, the agencies, the commission, the member states, and we have such a good partner in Moldova that really would like to work closely with us on the internal security aspect. This has been a very good example. I'm working also very closely with Ukraine on internal security, especially on preventing trafficking on human beings, preventing firearms trafficking. But of course it's a totally different situation because they are at war. But I think having more comprehensive security cooperation, especially with countries on an EU path. We also have it with several of the Western Balkan countries because to be able to reach the standard, the EU standard in law enforcement for many countries. This is a significant steps that need to be taken both on the judicial and on the police cooperation, for example, when it comes to legislation. So it's important that we support them in this. Thank you, Commissioner for that. I have a number of questions on third countries and safe third countries. And I think you're working with the refugee, some of the refugee agencies in relation to safe third countries. But this is an issue that I think is of importance to quite a number of people. How will the EU designate safe countries for refugee return. The member state decides themselves if they consider a third country a safe third country. If a country is considered a safe third country, then a person coming from that country, a citizen in that country, the asylum request could be seen as inadmissible. So this is how it works. We propose that we should have an EU wide definition of safe third countries. Hopefully that co legislators will agree on that, but we are not there yet. If we agree on European definition of safe third countries, it means that people that coming from that country are safe in that country, and that should not be their asylum application should be seen in inadmissible. But this definition has not been decided yet. But part of it, of course, is how well functioning the protection of fundamental rights, the right to apply for asylum and to be given international protection, for example. It's also part that has to be assessed in that context. Thank you, Commissioner. Just also to follow up on that. There will be a question of sending migrants to other countries besides their countries of origin, and that is a provision as well. Is that the case? This is not in my proposal. This is not in the proposal and the common general approach of the of the council. It's not in the parliament position. So, and I must also say that I'm not in favor of that. I don't think it's a good idea to send asylum applicants to a third country. But it's not in my proposal and it's not in the council general approach and it's not in the parliament position. So I will be very surprised if that would be the outcome of the negotiations. We can take that assurance. Thank you. And just another series of questions. I have actually three more questions on Tunisia from people who are worried about the policies of the Tunisian regime, the abandonment of hundreds of migrants in the Tunisian desert from Jane Ann McKenna, who's the chief executive officer of the NGO Docus, and how will the EU ensure that the fundamental human rights of individuals seeking asylum will be upheld in their partnerships agreement. You've mentioned already that there is a provision, but do we have the ability to oversee that we can uphold the standards of human rights in that agreement? Tunisia is a long standing strategic partner to the EU and also to several, I think maybe all of the member states of the EU. And it's clear that there are a lot of challenges and that's why we would like to work even closer with Tunisia to address this. And that's why my president was there yesterday to sign this memorandum of understanding. I was in Tunisia the third time during my mandate one and a half months ago where we discussed specifically on the migration part. And what we agree then is that we should work together with Tunisia when it comes to those that are present in Tunisia and that would like to voluntarily return to the country of origin. That we should support that via IOM and the reintegration of these third countries. That Tunisia should welcome back Tunisian citizens that are not eligible to stay in the European Union to return to Tunisia. That we should support Tunisia when it comes to the prevention of these dangers, mostly deadly departures on these boats, that we should work together on the identification of migrants and that we should jointly invest in legal pathways, what we call talent partnership together. And I think this is the way to work on the comprehensive way on migration. Thank you for, thank you for the frank answer on that. Commissioner, I think I probably speak for a lot of people in Ireland, who wonder what can be done or how can the EU assist in stopping the smuggling of migrants and asylum seekers. Every day the huge numbers crossing in the various along the various routes and there are smugglers involved there is huge money involved. Is it difficult for the EU do we feel more or less helpless in front of these smugglers who are ever more ingenious ever more active. More journeys. What is your view in terms of trying to deal with the smuggling because I think that's something that people are really concerned about. Yes, and I think we should be concerned. I think it's extremely important that we remember that that's where I started migrants are human beings that men women and children. It could have been me. It could have been us that are in a situation where they might be desperate to search for a better future or for protection. So I think the day we stop being upset or concerned about lives being lost. We have lost something important of being a human being. So so this is important. Our first obligation is always to save lives and to be able to do that we need to do different things. So, for example, on these deadly routes right now on the central map we have been quite successful on the Atlantic as I started to say, but now we see it on the central map. And these smuggling networks, they are very professional. Many of those have links to different countries. And that's why I went to Pakistan and to Bangladesh to work together with them. Because we see a lot of Bangladesh and Pakistanis along these routes on the central med also and on this terrible tragedy with the shipwreck outside Greece. There could have been three to 400 Pakistanis that actually lost their lives. There was a new bottom of this ship in the belly. And that was a huge tragedy. So it's important to work already from the countries of origin, but then also to work with countries of transit. And this is part of the cooperation, for example, with Tunisia, that we should be able to exchange also data between police to go after these criminal networks. We have seen especially on the Atlantic's actually quite successful police cooperation on cracking down on the smugglers. And this we need to do even more. But we also need to do is search and rescue when we can need to prevent their this unsee worthy vessel to depart. But if they depart people need to be rescued. We always have to prioritize saving lives. But to also to prevent more people from going here. I think it's important to in parallel invest in legal pathways. We are an aging society in the European Union. We need workforces from younger societies. And this we should also be better at investing in good pathways for people to come here also legally to contribute to our economy. And this is what we are doing with talent partnership. So unfortunately, there is no quick fix. So we need a comprehensive approach. But I think where you started the day we start to be very upset and concerned. We have lost something it really important. So we should not do that and we should never accept this to be a normal situation. Thank you Commissioner that's very clear and as a very last question it is in fact related to your last point to Donna who who's the deputy director general of the Institute said what role for data sharing in managing secondary movement. The proposed interoperability of Frontex and police databases be of assistance in tracking migrants. It's a question of interoperability of data. And presumably the more of that, the more successful can be tracking be of migrants and movements as a very last question. Now there are different part in this in this question. One is when we talk about secondary movement inside European Union, then it's important with my proposal on the new Europe that we will have more proper data, especially also to protect children that sometimes go missing migrant children it's important that we really have the information on each individual and to make sure that no child will be will be missing. So that is it's not an exchange of data but it's more of a having the proper statistics on each individual that is there. When it comes to protect protection of our borders. It's not really an exchange of data but it's working together on the specific routes that are there. Where we really need the exchange of personal data is for police cooperation. And that is when a national police or Europol are exchanging data with a third country police. And that for to able to do that we need a special status agreement to so that we can also stand up to our high standards of data protection. But I think this is necessary to be able to go after the top level of these smugglers. We have to remember that these smugglers are not sending people to Europe. They are sending them to death. And sometimes they're actually even forced into the vessels, even when the weather conditions are really, really dangerous. So it's important that we not do not only go after the smugglers on the on the ground but also for this top level of these that really earns all the money of this cynic business. And for that we need police cooperation and for that we need a status agreement for exchanging of data with Europol and third country police. Thank you very much indeed. Commissioner that's a very chilling end to our discussion, but we owe you a great debt of gratitude for being so comprehensive and frank with us about the challenges that you face but also, I think it's very heartening to hear of the progress that has been made and we can just wish you well in something that is of huge importance to all the member states of the EU and and to internationally, because this this is one of the difficult and most challenging issues and we thank you again for joining us today to explain the challenges but also the progress that has been made. So thank you most sincerely. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.