 Welcome everybody at day four at SHA 2017. Our next speaker is Vesna, and she will give a lecture on Ethics in Technology. Enjoy your talk. Hi everyone, I'm very happy to be at SHA 2017 because at this occasion I'm celebrating 20 years anniversary that I am attending Dutch hacker camps. So it's not too far away from the first place, which was at HIP 97 in Almere Bouter, so here I am back again in the polder. Why this talk about Ethics in Technology? Well, I've been very happy to be part of the modern science advancement and the engineering and the beauty that was the internet for 25 years. I've been a techno-optimist and I believed that the science and engineering and the internet are going to make the world a better place. And that corresponds with this white space in the Yin and Yang symbol. So it's the symbolism for the positive energy, for the expansion, for the growth, for all the good things. And then about five years ago I actually turned to the dark side and started being techno-pessimist. And now I'm actually dreading the fact that by being a technologist and trying to build the internet I'm actually helping to destroy the world. And that's really scary and then I was thinking what can I do about it? And then I started exploring this grey area which is ethics, the values, the reasons why we do things, the reasons why we believe that something is good or bad. And that's somehow connected with my passions, things that I care about in daily life, but it's also connected with my work. So luckily I can combine these things because I work for IPaNCC and I'm a community builder there. And so I came from this engineering background and went towards the outreach, giving lectures. And what I'm not is an expert in philosophy of ethics. So it's just something that I'm passionate about and this is where the hacking comes into the picture. So I'm kind of hacking the psychology of ethics in our own way. A little bit about logistics. This talk looks like it's actually consisting of three parts but it's actually three talks crammed into one talk slot. So I'll be talking very quickly. I'll be skipping a lot of slides and I might not even finish by the end of the hour. So I actually booked another hour for the discussion in the Cha village next door. So if there is no time for the questions after this, we can move there afterwards. And since I'm celebrating, there will be probes. These are the references that I will be using throughout the slides so please read them because I cannot cram all of that in one hour. So let's start. The science and technology and then ethics. So what is ethics? Well, Wikipedia definition is here. So it's a philosophical study of looking into our values. So some people call it morality, some people call it ethics and then there is like a lot to study about that. And the people from the beginnings of the western philosophy have been studying this a lot. So as hackers, we sometimes tend to think that only the engineering is science so only natural science is a science. This is also science and we need to put some effort into incorporating all the learnings that have happened over the centuries to start with but also over the millennia since we were humans into thinking how do these values apply to this very, very modern technological field very narrow field that we are dealing with here at the hackers conference. So here is the handy pie chart that splits all the sciences into different disciplines which is great for going very deep into ethics of each one of these disciplines but the problem with that is that it also actually creates this silo mentality where you cannot easily get the interdisciplinarity between the philosophy and engineering. And that's what this talk is trying to merge and this is what I'm trying to actually invite you to incorporate in your practices trying to be interdisciplinary between things that are maybe not exactly your area of expertise. So since the classical sciences started developing well recently there were a lot of moral dilemmas for example with the development of nuclear energy and the threat of the nuclear destruction of the whole earth. In the medical sciences we had had to come up with oath of Hippocritus which then has to be applied on dealing with people and also on the medical research so there is a lot of ethical questions there and then similarly with the development of the chemistry we had to look into the ethical consequences of using these chemical products that are beneficial for certain tasks but actually destroying the rest of the life or biosphere and leading to extinctions of certain species. So the silent spring from Rachel Carson was started in the 60s this movement in the environmental sciences and ethics. So this is only there to kind of give you the background reading if you download the slides because I will take this as a given. Technical is political. As well as the programming is political, languages are political, artifacts have politics the translations are political, crypto is political, coding is political, personal is political everything is political but that's not my talk so I'll just move on. So again, in the more recent and a bit more focused on this crowd history we had a lot of ethical dilemmas with using computer science for the things that were maybe not intended to like counting the victims of the Holocaust or what is the artificial intelligence going to do when we embed our ethical biases, unconscious biases into programming artificial intelligence then we had of course cryptography then we have the privacy in the networking and all these things that of course covered by other people in the talk so I'll skip this and come to the internet and the free software and hacking so the problem with realizing how powerful the ethics and values that we have in building the internet is so many so I will just point to some of them when the internet was developed it was developed by geeks and academics and engineers and military and it wasn't meant to take such a large role that it has in the society today so the initial people who actually developed the internet because it didn't just appear it was actually developed by people those people had certain ethical values and they have built it into the foundations of the internet and now we have to deal with the consequences of that so we discussed all kinds of things there like biases, discrimination, sexism, whatever and the other important thing there is that a lot of these people used to feel like being on the margins of the society or they're just engineers or they're just geeks or they're just hackers and even themselves they were feeling discriminated against and now we who were these geeks and nerds and engineers and hackers we are not anymore on the margins of the society we are building this core network, this internet which is used for everything it's used for health, it's used for banking and for transport and for the social media and it's a lot of responsibility for ourselves to bear but we have to take that responsibility the similar thing with free software so it was a really nice idea the ethics of free software are beautiful and these quotes come from a book of a friend of mine which I want to promote so here's the link and then after the free software or Libre software came the open source and already there in such a small part of our small community there is already the ethical values that are clashing with each other and they are unexamined because we as engineers as hackers we don't really want to think about that and we're not even trained to think about that but we need to learn it because since recently everybody needs a hacker and we also have hackers ethics so this is a mandatory slide so talking about ethics and technology and the hackers conference we have to have hackers ethic as it is listed here but in one of these references that I already showed there is a link to a talk by Allison who actually questioned all of this so we will come back to this and see how can we question even such a great thing as hackers ethics the similar things about crypto so there was this guy who after Snowden said wait a minute what is the crypto community doing what is the brain cycles of all these brilliant people what are they used for and how can we put them to better use so if you are from the crypto community this is a checklist of the questions that you can ask yourself and try to live up to your own personal ethics by examining it and making conscious decisions about what is your work being used for another example critical engineering another great reference another great website when we talk about ethics so now we come to some even more applied ethics and that is going towards the work function that I do and that is about internet measurements so there there is a group of people who came up together like really made an interdisciplinary team and started from the theory of the applied ethics and this is the most difficult slide for me because like I read so many times their paper and it's really hard for me to deal with this so there are all kinds of types of ethics so consequentialism so the things are good if they are put to good use utilitarianism so if we may make a program or an app that is actually going to be used for some good things then the rest doesn't matter how it was developed what can it be abused for none of that matters because some of the uses that it was made for were good so that's utilitarianism then there is like consequences of the acts and consequences of the rules like yeah we meant it to be used this way and if it would have been used only that way it would have had good consequences but the people who choose to use it for something else then they have to stop behaving in an unethical way and that is one way of looking at the ethics in this consequentialism way then there is the ontology which now I don't exactly know what it is so I'll just skip it and then the virtue ethics like if you're a good person then the things that you develop will end up being good things so you just make sure that you're a good person and it doesn't matter if you work for bad company because you're a good person and so that's how some people explain their ethical position but I'm a good person it cannot be that my products are going to be used for bad things then there is principalism so that's already becoming a bit more practical like okay so how if we want to make sure that our products or our measurements are being used in an ethical way which rules do we have to follow which principles do we have to embed in our measurement to make it as ethical as possible so these are the rules you need to respect autonomy of the participants in that measurement you need to have their beneficence in mind you should try not to hurt anyone and then it should be fair and just so already if you embed only these principles it's already better than just thinking oh nothing can go wrong because I'm doing it for the good reason and finally the best would be to combine a lot of these because it cannot be prescribed like one set of rules for any internet measurement or any software project so you need to look into the pluralism of causes pluralism of ethical principles and try to combine them so again from that paper if you're interested only in internet measurements and you take anything back home this is the summary so they are saying that the internet is not anymore just a technical network it's actually a socio-technical system and we have to consider it as such the power imbalances that exist in building the internet, controlling the internet and the users of the internet also have to be taken into consideration and when involving these users into internet measurements a lot of effort has to be put into obtaining their informed consent and that's hard for many many reasons because people will just click I agree you can write anything in there it's very difficult to so that's one reason the other one is it's very difficult to simplify the explanation of what is it that you're actually doing and what the consequences can be for them to make the meaningful informed consent and so on so there are all kinds of challenges but this is the effort that has to be put in the measurements and then any other technological development before you even start then again, weighting all the risks and benefits before you start the next thing is if you're just using somebody's else's data or it's all there in public anyway it's easily accessible but it was maybe not meant to be used that way so you have to still go through all these checks and ask yourself doesn't matter if it was easily accessible and you didn't put it in there are you using it in the ethical way and not agreeing with somebody else who is doing unethical measurements so there were conferences which actually refused some papers which were based on the unethical measurement principles because they would put the users in danger and the conference organizers didn't want to accept such a paper although the findings were quite interesting but the methods to which those results were obtained were not actually ethical and another flowchart from that paper this is how you actually go around designing such a thing now that's all very theoretical and now we move to the actual practical thing so I will give a very short introduction about what is RIPE NCC, what is RIPE ATLAS and then how did we implement all these ethical principles in RIPE ATLAS but before that how many of you already know what RIPE NCC is? A half, how many of you know what RIPE ATLAS is? It's probably the same group Okay, so very very short introduction RIPE NCC stands for RISO IPE European pardon my French European IP networks and then RIPE NCC Network Coordination Centre now a lot of people say all the time RIPE for short when they mean RIPE NCC but it's two completely different things RIPE is a community of operators in Europe and all these other mustard coloured areas which came together in 1989 to develop principles for governing IP resources and by that also other aspects of developing internet in Europe and those areas and so they get together on these kinds of conferences called or not on the camping grounds and they talk to each other and come up with these common rules like how to deal with the internet and the similar thing happens in other regions now all these five organisations that are listed there not IANA but the other four regional internet registries are like RIPE NCC so there is a community which is RIPE and then there is a company, RIPE NCC that gives out IP addresses to keep it simple these are the IPv6 addresses that we give out so we get a large block from IANA so it's very hierarchical IANA Internet Assign Numbers Authority gives addresses to regional internet registry they give them to local internet registry which is normally an ISP or a hosting provider sometimes a bank, sometimes whatever some other organisation wants to be independent and then they, in case of internet providers they use them for their end user network and so these blocks are distributed that way it used to be the same process for the IPv4 but we ran out of IPv4 so we are now mostly talking about IPv6 and that's the end of the introduction about RIPE NCC now that was the core job of the NCC and what else we do is developing this global distributed internet measurement platform called RIPE Atlas we do that because all those members of the RIPE NCC because it's an association of members they all pay yearly fee to the RIPE NCC and since NCC is not for profit organisation we can't really spend all that money and so we invested into other projects such as this distributed measurement project because we are this central organisation that is trusted by its members then they trust us to collect the data generated by these measurement devices so the device itself, current version is a modified TP-Link router so it's not a router anymore we have installed OpenWRT on it and you plug it into your internet connection in the office or at home and you plug it into electricity and it starts doing ping, trace route and DNS look up to root name servers so DNS infrastructure, critical internet infrastructure so there is about 10,000 of these things hosted by volunteers, people like you and all of these devices generate these very baseline measurements like very low protocol stack measurements and we collect the data and then release the data back to the community we also create some visualisations of it a lot of tools and so on so it's a great measurement network also operated by the community but actually the infrastructure is operated by RIPE NCC and there are a lot of features that I will not talk about and then there are other measurement platforms that we both cooperate with and can be compared with so in 2014 somebody actually looked into all these measurement platforms how can they be used for looking into the interference so detecting if somebody is messing up with a network somewhere globally either for the censorship, mostly for the censorship or just to shut down the whole internet so the two use cases in this paper that were described were the shutting down internet in Turkey or rather redirecting the DNS servers in Turkey and what was the other one it will come to me later so there are other measurement networks and for this talk it is most important for me to see how the ethical principles applied for the rest of them and how they applied for the RIPE Atlas so that is also described in this paper if you want more details so when we were developing RIPE Atlas which was like six years ago maybe six, seven years ago we made some conscious decisions that made this network useful for certain things and actually completely unusable for other types of measurements although people asked us although there is a need for such a thing we decided not to go there and that was for the ethical reasons so what we do is only active measurements so we only generate pings and trace routes and DNS lookups we don't listen to the existing traffic so on one hand this is good because we protect the users from themselves like we don't listen to their traffic but on the other hand we cannot measure the bandwidth speed because not directly, not of your connection then we also decided to have all the tools open source and in some cases also free software API calls are also open and the data is completely available and open we published methodology on what is it that we measure so that other researchers can actually compare results with our analysis results and we limit the set of measurements so that we don't put the users in danger so a lot of people want to measure the web traffic because for the newer generation of internet users the web is the internet we just don't do that we don't actually do HTTP measurements because that would put in danger people in the countries where there is a blockage of the web content and so if you are trying to fetch a forbidden web page then you can get in trouble now something that I maybe didn't make clear is let me go back to this picture so the thing is when you install this thing in your house in let's say Holland the probe itself is not really useful to you it is useful for other people who want to measure how is the internet performance towards certain server in another part of the globe performing from Holland and you get access to all the probes around the globe hosted by other people so basically the building up principle was that of trust so I put this thing in my network I have to trust both RIPE NCC but also I have to trust 10,000 users around the globe that are going to do ping from my probe to a server in Brazil to a server in Saudi Arabia to a server in Africa to a server wherever and so if they do a ping it's less problematic than if they try to fetch a web page from my home IP address in a country where if that web page like is Pirate Bay in Holland well then I might get in trouble but if I ping Pirate Bay okay that's a bit less problematic so this is one of the reasons why we have kept the set of measurements to very limited set and here is the mandatory photo of a cat and this is somebody's probe in somebody's house so we don't want to put that person nor this cat in any danger by doing the measurements which are really geeky and really useful for all of us who want to know how internet performs but it can put the real people and the real cats in real life problems so that was many years ago when we were designing concept of a network what are we going to do and since then well since I was a community builder people kept asking me like wait a minute but why is no where is your source code and I was like oh yeah we are working on it so in 2013 we actually published the source code so now you can examine what it does then in 2014 we thought okay this is we would like to propose that all the measurements that are performed should be made public and then some of the users from the community said no we actually see the value of keeping some of my measurements not public at least not at the same like at real time so we kind of asked the users and they insisted so we decided to allow some of them to be non-public the difference is between the values of openness so having open data like you are paying for it and you should have all the open data and the other value is privacy or even in this case it wasn't even privacy but it was more like troubleshooting value so if my if I'm using right path was to troubleshoot some problems in my network I don't want that measurement to immediately become publicly visible to everybody else but of course it is published anyway in the aggregated data so the value of openness is still satisfied and some people who value privacy they also got their say then in 2015 we actually did implement HTTP measurements but they are not available for random websites so the user cannot actually schedule them but we do them towards some servers that we operate which are called right pathless anchors and in 2016 we hired one of the security companies to do a third party security audit to make sure that there aren't actually any exploits that we didn't think of or any security problems which lead to ethical consequences and so we published the results of that security audit and then this year we went to the rights con in Brussels which was actually quite an eye-opener for me there were a lot of people a lot of advocates of defending human rights using the internet tools and one of those internet tools is internet measurements and so how can we use the internet measurement networks to at least publicize the human rights violations in certain countries where internet shutdown is somewhat considered a human right violation if it is done for certain purposes of oppression and so the people who were there they made this survey and they compared a lot of existing measurement tools according to certain criteria and then they also examined the right pathless and they found out that indeed it does ensure large-scale access so a lot of measurements are possible however and again I said like we don't measure web traffic and then it does satisfy some of the requirements so they have their own checklist and the right pathless actually fits with some of their requirements but then again not with all of them so we also are very friendly with the hackers and so when we started distributing these probes to hackerspaces then they of course opened them and hacked them and examined them they were like oh really that's what you say it does well let me check so they did they checked it and then they reported it luckily first back to us so we have this responsible disclosure procedure available to the to everyone and so if you report it to us we will try to fix it first and then publish it anyway and then thank you for making us aware of this security flaw and there is more probes at hackerspaces and at hacker camps and there will be a talk tomorrow about the measurements between hackerspaces that that are done with the right pathless probes it's called Hackerspaces Jedi we also do hackathons they're a lot of fun we support academics to come to the right community and we also have this publishing platform called RIPE Labs I'm going very quickly through the slides because there's many slides left so at the end of this talk about the right pathless and the right NCC this is my invitation to you to join and to take part in one way or the other so if you are a coder or designer or developer or researcher you can join our hackathons the next one is in November in Copenhagen the topic is IPv6 it's our sixth hackathon then we have a lot of meetings where you can come and meet your colleagues from these communities and have their experiences with them you can join the right pathless community by hosting a probe so after this talk we can go to Cha and you can get one of these probes or you can just use the data so again to make it even more clear the data from these probes is not available only to the probe hosts it is available both hosts and to anybody so it's genuinely open you do need to have an account to download the data there are APIs, you can download things there is a web interface but the data is open so we are also interested in cooperation with other organizations that are interested in using our data how can we make it easily accessible what do you find in the data that you also like to learn from and once you do that then we are going to publish it also on labs.ribe.net and we also publish our software it's on github, especially from the hackathons please use it and improve it and give it back to the community so these are the contact details where you can find me oh I'll take some water so now the next part of my talk starts how do we go beyond the hackers ethics so how do we question the assumptions that we have about the hackers ethics beings about openness about meritocracy about sharing about tolerance about improving the world well one of the assumptions is how does the hacker look like and so it's kind of gray on gray but mostly if you do a search for the image of a hacker and you go to images it's a guy in a hoodie and then if you can see his face it's mostly a white guy in a hoodie and so there is this woman who made a website where you can actually choose all these characteristics and make other images of the hacker just to familiarize yourself with the fact that the hackers actually come in all kinds of shapes and forms and t-shirts and dresses hairs colors drink also other things and not only club mate so this is one of the assumptions about the hackers community that if an outsider comes to this community they will be pretty much reassured about the typical view of the hackers are so this is one of the other separate goals that I have in life is to change this situation and increase diversities of the hackers communities and then I want to plug in the paper of the Allison parish or her presentation which is called programming is forgetting so she described in that presentation that whenever we create a view of a reality we have to discard most of the input that we have in order to create a certain view and the way in which we choose what we keep to create our picture of reality is our ethics is our values is actually embodying our ethics and our values and then she goes on to kind of dissect the hackers ethics and then instead of coming up with a new set of hacker ethics she comes up with questions how can we question the classical hackers ethics and here are some of them so access to computers should be unlimited and total to whom who gets to use the computers who gets to make the computers who is actually making all the equipment that we are all using who is being left out how is the software that you are making hindering or helping the access to the computers that should be free the same for the data all information should be free well to whom who is using it and so on so there is a lot of questions there and in the original quote it also says that hackers should be judged by their hacking and not by any other criteria and the gender was not even there so it also says that the hackers can be from a different background different educational background without degrees without technical background of a different age of a different race in a different position in life mothers can also be hackers mothers are hackers so these are all the questions that we have to ask ourselves every time even if we are hackers and we think we are the good guys or we are the good girls more questions from the paper of the ethics in the network system research which you can access on this website these are all kinds of questions you have to ask yourself before you start measuring things on the internet and then this is to say do not be just utilitarian like if is this app a good thing because it actually achieves a useful purpose how does it do that okay that's a good question but it's just possible questions why did there even come an idea that this app should be in place who is going to use it who is going to be helped by that who is going to be harmed by that so question everything and then question even more things so what other kinds of internet can we imagine one of the possible types of internet is a feminist internet so several years ago a group of people came together and they came up with the principles for the feminist internet so it's at least a good reading material because we are not going to undo the current internet but embedding these values within yourself or even realizing that they exist is a good starting point one of my favorites is changing the way we communicate and that can be done using principles of nonviolent communication or empathic listening empathic leadership and being open to recognize your feelings and realizing that there is space in the open source of development for humans for our emotions for our needs and that is also very much connected with our values and with our ethics so the so called NVC the nonviolent communication by Marshal Rosenberg is in my opinion very suitable for the programmers types because it's quite algorithmical it gives you steps and there are loops where you can get back for a while but then you return with the variable that gets another value into your algorithm and then you proceed from there so give it a try if you're curious about learning another way to communicate and then going to step beyond that is even more empathic build up of the internet and I recommend this book called To Our Friends by the Invisible Committee they are an anarchist collective that few years ago gave a talk at the CCC Congress and so they are talking about redefining what freedom means and moving away from feelings of individual freedom to the freedom of forming collectives and the freedom to create connections with others and even further there is anarchism there is green anarchy there is Buddhism and the principles of Burning Man and principles of permaculture and the ethics of polyamory so these are the things that we can bring into the hackers community to make our community more resilient better and helpful for the rest of the world not only for ourselves how much time? okay so to go beyond techno-optimism I have to dive deeper into techno-pessimism first and to point out something that you all know about mobile phones being surveillance devices and this was actually predicted in the 1982 in the paper do artifacts have politics and so at that time he thought that oh if you ask people to wear a surveillance device they are not going to do it but if you just market it differently if you say oh it's a cool technological innovation then they will go for it well he said it better so everybody would propose that as a political statement people would revolt but since it wasn't political it was made apolitical to have a mobile phone and to examine what do the mobile phones can be used for people actually accepted the surveillance that comes with the cool gadget so the other problems that exist with the current technological level of development are the energy use the violence that has to be used for extracting the resources from nature the violence that has to be used against the people who make those devices and pollution of the environment so these are all the things that are also part of building the internet and then there is even more political statement about the hierarchy and the capitalistic way of how the internet is built and then there is a digital divide so while for some people we get these blue cool data center spaces where all of our data is stored and processed for other people we get pollution and again the violence and the extraction of their homes but there is hope the squirrels are fighting back so this is actually what happened on home four years ago there was a lot of damage to the infrastructure from rodents and for most of the people who actually maintained the network that was a problem but for me that was actually a good thing like yeah now we have to also count on them is this internet actually a good thing for the squirrels why are we only talking about us and humans in the other areas of the world how about the squirrels and we have to count on them in more ways than one because actually they are winning the cyber war the squirrels are apparently the number one cause of most of the internet disruptions at least the US and a lot of power outages too well that actually doesn't end well for them but still we have to count on squirrels and a little bit more succinct way which can be fit on a t-shirt is with great power comes great responsibility we as hackers, as engineers as technical community we now have great powers and we have to take the ethical principles in mind to know how to exercise this great power with the great responsibility and even beyond the internet there are other technologies which some people think lead to the technological singularity some other people ask us to consider the nature of the exponential function so the exponential growth is by definition unsustainable think about it Ursula Legvin on the other hand invites us again to consider a society which would not be focused on the growth and on the endless growth and endless progress but it would be concerned with preservation of the size and the wealth that we already have by going towards the modest standard of living by conserving natural resources by lowering our fertility rate and by changing our politics to go towards consent and trying to fit in our environment and to try to live without destroying the others, without destroying the environment and without destroying ourselves in that process so that can be summarized in these two pictures instead of having the hierarchy of a pyramid or a circle of life or as I like to say there is an Internet of Trees there was an Internet of Trees before we came up with this current Internet of Machines there is Internet of Mycelia and if we would consider the trees and the oxygen as important as Wi-Fi maybe we would at some point still have some oxygen or as this other joke says or maybe it's not that bad and what if we actually do all these changes to cut down consumption to preserve everything and it actually wasn't necessary and we created a better world well, it's worth it so my final words are in these small letters from a nuclear research scientist from his Nobel Prize acceptance speech where he calls his fellow scientists to take responsibility because science became very powerful in influencing lives of all the humans on the world and these scientists were called to take responsibility for the whole of humanity and I'm saying the same way as the scientists are responsible for it the engineers need to take responsibility and hackers need to take responsibility for the humanity we also need to take responsibility for the rest of the life on this planet which for me is symbolized by squirrels thank you great there is 10 minutes left so I would like to have a discussion or questions or anybody who wants to add something but didn't have time to be on the stage or to do a lightning talk 10 minutes so do it on the mic or ask me questions thanks so much for that great talk that was really good and wide and deep and very positive as well so it's also super if you go back to the slide of the pyramid of of internet network no internet networks and capitalism and what it says upper left corner is that you should decentralize and break up with your ISP to build networks well for that you need autonomous systems and isn't that exactly a thing that RIPE has loads of so how do you think RIPE could be part of that work okay politically correct answer to that question is RIPE is a community that is based on itself through the bottom up process so the distribution of autonomous system numbers is based on the policies that are created by the community currently that policy says if you want autonomous system number you ask RIPE NCC and we give you one based on a certain criteria if there is a need to change that policy and to make it easier to get an autonomous system number to make that distribution decentralized or some other proposal it is current policy development process for somebody to come up with a proposal send it to the mailing list it's going to be discussed other people are going to give their input and the final policy is going to be implemented by the RIPE NCC if something that RIPE NCC can decide for example if the policy is we want RIPE NCC to get out of the picture completely then maybe that has to go to the next level which is IANA ICANN which governs how are the internet resources given to the regional registries and if even that is not the right level there is the ITF level which decides about how is the networking done and where are these resources going and in which way so these are three possible steps the easiest one for this crowd is the RIPE policy development process the next one is IANA ICANN and then of course in parallel there is also ITF but you knew all that so I somehow suspect that that's not what you wanted to hear but we can have the discussion later does this answer your question thanks so does anybody have another question for Vanya Basna if not I'll be in the chat then thank you hello thank you for providing this indeed wide and deep framework I'm really intrigued by the metaphors you're using in the last part on say miscellaneous fungi network and the forests and the squirrels as sort of ethical hinge points to remind ourselves of the important questions to ask I was wondering how you balance that in say your official part the politically correct part of the work you do which you can embody some of these values and also there's a more radical potential perhaps there to think of a decentralized network that's perhaps beyond the official roles and titles we take so I was wondering the squirrel on your T-shirt it's in the talk it's there it's accompanying us everywhere as the ethical question is it good for the squirrels if not does this become the ethical grounding for your position do I understand that correctly yes that's a good way to explain it and the other way to say is that I'm not there yet so I keep also reminding myself all the time and questioning is this what I'm doing necessary is it enough what else could I do and one part of the strategy is to make this shared with other people to make it easier for myself to make the step away from the position where I am now towards some other position which I don't know even what that would be but maybe together we can come up with a path forward or path sideways where would that lead for myself it is very hard to think outside of the box because I am in the box so this is one small attempt to give an alternative way of looking at technologies, at values and to spend half of my talk on one topic and the other half and behind the last slide there is yet another talk which I'm not even going to show but if you download the slides you can see where else can that go and then one more thing I was in the many references you gave you were quite concrete about suggesting nonviolent communication as one of the openings to change I was wondering since we have a bit of time could you be able to give a concrete example of what that would mean for the people here at SHA so for the people at SHA the first step would be to educate themselves of what the nonviolent communication is so read the book go to the course watch videos and start implementing a different way of talking to yourself and to others which mostly means people in your team people in your organization and that is going to radically change the way how we deal with everyone but it's a very short time I cannot explain why is nonviolent communication so wonderful it's just very different it's very weird thank you last question hi thanks for mentioning empathy and things like that I think it's very much missing isn't part of the problem of the hacker ethic that it's almost fundamentally against things like mass media and social media and doing analytics and things like this and nowadays it seems that you need that stuff in order to get a word out so you sort of almost need to take the evil pill a little bit do you know what I mean I know what you mean and I would still question that question in a sense that if it is fundamentally against the hacker ethics to use social media as they are currently then who was the person who were the people who actually developed them in the first place so I don't think it is fundamentally against it was just unquestioned and it was actually implemented in the current social media the way how the hackers ethics is because it does give access to computers and to data to us it's just that these hackers are not Facebook and NSA so I don't think there is there is a mismatch there and how can we stop doing that well we need to question our hackers ethics and say if I'm fundamentally against this why would I use it there are other ways to get in touch with people that you need to do things together without taking the evil pill I'm not the one to speak I'm on Twitter, I'm guilty as everybody else here is or maybe more than most of you so we need to come with the solutions together I agree team collaborating is super important so our time is unfortunately up so if you want to talk to Vesna a little bit more you have to follow her to the Shah village give her a warm applause Vesna for your talk