 Good morning everybody. Wonderful to see everybody. My name is Nancy Lindborg. I'm the president of the US Institute of Peace and I'm Delighted to welcome everybody who's here with us today and those of you who are watching online to this 6th In a series of bipartisan congressional dialogues here at US Institute of Peace. We launched this series earlier this year to provide a platform for members of Congress who are working from opposite sides of the aisle on really on critical issues with the goal of advancing our national security interest and this is the bipartisan spirit actually that was at the founding of US Institute of Peace when Congress founded us in 1984 with the distinct mission of preventing and resolving violent conflict abroad and we believe that a world without violent conflict is possible that it is Practical and it is of course essential for our national security and we pursue our mission by working with partners around the world practical applications of the best ways to prevent and resolve violent conflict and also by hosting events like this to advance the policy discussions and we're honored to have with us here today two great friends strong supporters of USIP Congressman Chris Stewart from Utah and Congressman Dutch Ruppersberger from Maryland Both congressmen are leaders on foreign policy and national security issues in Congress Congressman Stewart is a member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligent Congressman Ruppersberger was previously the ranking committee on this member as well Both are members of the House appropriations state foreign operations and related program subcommittees So they are deeply engaged in these critical issues and very knowledgeable At USIP we strongly believe that fostering bipartisan efforts to strengthen national security are critical And we found that despite what you're reading in the papers There is a strong genuine effort on the hill to advance these critical issues For our national security and so today our conversation will focus on managing conflict and competition With China which is especially given this week's headlines a very timely topic Yesterday we heard President Trump accused the Chinese government of attempting to interfere in the mid-term elections Earlier this week the administration implemented an additional $200 billion in tariffs on Chinese imports So we're seeing that confrontation with China competition with China is a topic of increasing interest in concern We saw in the national security strategy of the Trump administration that there was an increased Emphasis on the need to address the return of great power competition We have seen that China is flexing its muscle increasingly on the world stage increased investments in Asia and in Africa And they play an active role in countries that are struggling with internal and now Internationalized conflict so understanding their role in these conflicts and understanding the nature of the competition is really essential This year USIP has been convening a series of bipartisan senior study groups to examine China's role In conflict dynamics around the world the first study group looked at China's significant and Complicating role in Burma's many conflicts including the really terrible tragedy in Rakhine Their work just wrapped up this week or last week with the launch of their final report there are copies as you exit and I also urge you to look for it online and The second group has just begun which is now focusing on China's role vis-a-vis the the nuclear threat of North Korea So there are These are issues that are very much at the top of our agenda here at USIP And we are delighted to be able to probe more deeply into some of these issues with two foremost congressional Leaders who will discuss with us today how the hill is thinking about in approaching these critical issues Before we begin I want to invite all of you to follow us IP on Twitter at USIP and join in today's conversation with the hashtag Bipartisan USIP We will end our conversation with an opportunity for questions from Those of you in the audience and online will be passing out note cards So grab one if you have a question we'll be collecting those and adding those to the conversation and with that Please join me in welcoming to the stage Congressman Stewart and Congressman Ruppersberger gentlemen So gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us and Congressman Stewart, I would like to ask you to open us up if you'd like to okay. Great. Thank you Nancy, thank you. It's an honor to be with you and have all of you here and There I want you know, there's no one that I respect more than my friend Dutch. He and I have traveled together He's a former ranking member on the Intel committee, which I spend a lot of my time on And it's an honor to be here some of you know, I was a former Air Force pilot and I'm we could fly 17 20-hour missions. I could hit my target plus or minus one second So you said five minutes opening comments here I've started my clock and I will be plus or minus one second. Okay, we'll see Yeah, I've asked all the time. What's it like to be in Congress and And I used to tell people and still do it if you want to know what it's like to be in Congress You go over here and bang your head against that wall about 12 times And then go home and get yelled at right And I'll go home and people be like hey, why are you doing this? Why aren't you doing this? You're a bad congressman and And that's just my family and my friends Which is why these kind of events are important to me because it doesn't have the same sense of frustration the same sense of Anx that we feel and that so many people feel regardless of where you are in the political spectrum. We have Two people here that you know Republicans and Democrats and yet we understand these issues that US IP and others are So strong and advocating for matter and that by and large They should be and have been and we must continue for them to be bipartisan in nature. It's just too important otherwise So I'll go home and bang my head against wall on these other issues, but in this case, I don't have to do that And I'm grateful for that Setting the stage now for about China and this issue and national security in general I had an interesting conversation with Admiral Harris. He used to be a pay-com commander as in that role He had almost a third of all military forces fell under his command. He's now the Ambassador in Korea. I saw him a few weeks ago And he's was taken to Korea for their very specific purpose of what he could do to help with Obviously the denuclearization of North Korea very important mission, but he said something and I think he Articulated it well and when you ask, you know, what is the greatest threat facing our country or what are the greatest challenges? We hadn't he said North Korea is the most imminent challenge the most urgent. He said The Soviet not Soviet Union Russia Former Soviet Union is the most is the only existential threat that we face But China is the most complicated and I think I think that's true you know, this is something that We were talking earlier and and I said as a young lieutenant You know flying jets or flying combat ice-cream helicopters at the time We were fully prepared and expecting to be at war with Russia as they came through the fold gap in Germany And I you during the Cold War. That's right I mean it was Russia is the Soviet Union at that time and and we have to generationally change our thinking now I wrote an editorial a couple weeks ago We said we have to change our thinking to realize that China is the greatest threat that we face from the national security Security perspective and and from other perspectives as well including an economic perspective and one of the foundations for that has to be this and that is one of the other great threats that we face and I Was asked this recently and I just come back from Moscow And I said it's that no one knows what is true anymore and and that's this kind of overlap to this We have to be able to to deal with this issue in an honest way when we actually have data And it's not just emotion and and I think that's the foundation for dealing with frankly anything, but particularly this one And I'll maybe and end with this I Had I had a chance to have dinner the other night with a John Bolton the national security adviser And we spent some time talking about a number of things and he's a fascinating man and he's as knowledgeable on national security generally as anyone that I know and You know regardless of what you think about this president I think one thing that we can agree on and that is he has assembled an Extraordinary team Mike Pompeo friend of mine from Intel committee general Mattis Nikki Haley these are extraordinary individuals on national security and And the set national security buys and I had this conversation. What is the greatest that we face? What are we what keeps you awake and I where do we concentrate our efforts and? You know you talk about proliferation in North Korea the denuclearization you talk about Vladimir Putin Who's a KGB thug and we need to recognize that's what he is and I think most of us do You could talk about cyber which we'll talk about today. I hope because that's very important but At the end of day we both agreed China is the greatest threat that we face and the greatest concern that we have to have to be willing to Confront and I when I say confront by the way, I'm don't mean in a military way I just mean nationally we have to prioritize such that we can be effective in that so Appreciate the conversation because I think it's important and once again Dutch. Thanks for yes great to be here too Four minutes 47 seconds as a little short Don't two minutes first thing. It's great to be here and to communicate about issues that are important to our country in the World we're going to focus on China today, but it is a very dangerous world there I'm happy to be here with with your organization You know we've met before and we help fund you and Chris and I both are appropriators also and What as far as Chris is concerned? Congress has a lot of issues and problems a lot of bipartisan issues and if we're going to do what we need to Do for the benefit of our constituents and our country we're going to have to work a lot better and a lot more together and I can say this those of us who specialize in national security do work a lot closer Chris and I got to be very close. We travel together We do a lot of traveling. I've been to 60 different countries and it's not Bermuda either Iraq Afghanistan Pakistan China Russia those different areas and when you go and you get to learn who Individuals are you learn to respect them and you know Chris Chris's reputation of being fair for doing his homework and being involved is there and I respect being on the stage with you also He that he won't say it, but I think he did win a An award for traveling around the world the fastest is that the case? Why don't you say what that is so I don't have to say it we have the world's record for the fastest non-stop flight around the world Okay, there you go. So that's a big deal. Yeah, and we was a lot more fun than being in Congress I tell you get you got to have tough skin, you know that The other thing That Chris has done he and his brother have written some novels which I've read and they're excellent So he's a very special person and the type that we want to come together and communicate and hopefully in the next Congress And we don't know where it's going to be or what's going to happen that we can continue We will work together, but it should be about our country first and that's where we're we're trying to go Some of the issues today with these are the most dangerous times in the world and it's it's it's Iraq Afghanistan It's North Korea. It's it's Iran It's it's ISIS It's the China Russia threat I mean there are so many threats that are out there and we have to deal with them It's it's the military threat, especially as it relates to China. China has money. They're growing They're going to the moon they're active in space and cyber and hypersonic Weapons and in order to be able to counter this and to make sure we we maintain our Democracy and our quality of life We have to be able to show that we're in a position to protect our country to protect our democracy and the things that we do And that's what our ultimate goal should be those of us who specialize I'm on defense appropriations and we've gotten one of the biggest defense budgets because for a period of time in our Country we had a bill called sequestration which cuts everything across the board and You know if you anyone in budgeting or is managing a company or whatever knows that budgeting is about priorities It's not about cutting things across the board for the last two years We have been able not to file that law we and and we're doing well And we're doing things that we need need to do on both sides of the aisle So we're going to get a lot more into issues such as cyber I think in the questions and hold for that. I'm gonna have to leave on time Chris can stay I have a classified hearing. I'm going from China to Russia On our election and I have to be there About 1215 or 1220. So if I run out of here, it's not because I don't like you I'm afraid of you or whatever, but it's because you know, I have to go to another hearing That's what happens in Congress. So thanks for having this here. Well, thank you appreciate what you do What a beautiful building though. Yeah, thank you. Thank you And we really appreciate both taking the time to be here We know things are busy right now up on the hill, but let's jump right in and you've both mentioned some of the critical threats We've seen in particular a renew a new Chinese focus on building up their military From the South China Sea to acquisition of new Russian weapons They've put much more money into various of their systems. What what is the implication for that? For us with our alliances both in the Pacific and implications more globally for our national security No, we go first. Yeah Yeah, coincidentally I spent about three hours down at the defense intelligence agency last week actually the week before Looking at the new generation of weapon systems some from Russia, but primarily from China and You know if he Several of you've been to Africa or third-world countries I'm sure in developing countries and it's interesting because you'll see people there who hold a cell phone Who never held a landline never had a regular phone in their in their home and they skipped a generation They just went directly to cell phone and in fact not just a cell phone But a sophisticated smartphone and China has done much the same thing in weapons development They have been able to skip not just one generation in some cases two or three or four generations For the generation fighter being a good example of it where you know ten years ago One years ago they had very little capability in some cases no capability in that and less emphasis overall Yeah, it wasn't their priority exactly and their and their priority was on their PLA the people's liberation army The soldiers and they've had a dramatic shift in that so now make that point second with completing this point We can't look at them and say they're backwards in their development of weapons. It's just not true now Unfortunately much of that technology was stolen from the West and and that's just a fact it just was and shame on us for so for so So for easily allowing them to do that but we weren't as diligent as we could have been So the first thing is that that they are recommitted that they're skipping generations that the weapons that they are developing are Very very capable in some ways better than ours The second thing is their re-emphasis the redirection of those weapons. What matters to him You know, we're not going to invade China it with conventional forces What's far more likely as we find ourselves in in a sea battle with China and they recognize that and so they're redirecting a lot of that increased Capabilities towards their their Navy and protecting their region and being the dominant play in the region one good example of that is Hypersonic and I'll end on this because I don't want to talk too long give Dutch who's you know more knowledgeable on this and maybe I might be But once again the hypersonic missile system is one example and it's only one example But it's a good one and I remember talked with Admiral Harris again about you know This takes off our aircraft carriers It takes them off the board one of the foundations of our national security strategy and he said something interesting Me and I kind of hate to quote him on that and so I'm going to speak more generally, but you know He disagreed he said it doesn't take our carriers off the board I said well, would you would you lose one of your carriers? Or would you put a carry under threat and he said well, we would have to well What an event that would be if we lost to carrier due to one of their missiles and they have very extensive capabilities in that so it complicates our strategy Enormously with with some of the re-emphasis of of their weapons systems again. We I could go on but I want I could just say did though. Yeah Do you want to add? Well, yeah, I think if you look at China and their focus They are focusing to be the most powerful country in the world I think their goal is their 100th anniversary, which is 2040 and We have to make sure that we maintain our superiority to protect our quality of life our democracy the things that we believe in That doesn't mean that would do that. We're going to stop China Russia other countries from trying to develop their own weapons But it's serious one of the things that Chris you talked about was that a lot of what China has received And it's worth billions of dollars as they've stolen for many many years a lot of our technology because we years ago weren't where we are now as far as cyber security and And they have focused on space as an example and they're going to the moon Now the good news that we've been to the moon and you know, we raised the flag took the pictures and all that We're going back to the moon the next time Hopefully without man because we're going to do research and that type of thing. But when you have when you control the skies Sometimes you you control the world, you know when we became so powerful in this country There was years ago Russia put up something called Sputnik and it really worried the United States So at that point JFK was the president and he put put billions of dollars in investments and we became, you know the the superiority in space and Space just isn't about having satellites looking down. It's GPS It's so many different things that that we do and deal with space and yet China and Russia right now are up there with us And so we have to maintain where we are China right now is is investing a tremendous amount of money and again getting back to them still Information from us. I used to say about ten seven eight years ago in speeches China's stealing from us There's been stealing a lot of money. I'd say they're stealing ten billion dollars I hate to say this folks, but right now the amount of money that China has been stealing from our country Even fertilizer companies because they're in the fertilizer business is six hundred billion dollars That's a lot of money and that's what we have to deal with and we have to let China know Sooner this has got to stop and you know we we are in the cyber business But we in the United States don't steal products from other country And that's got to be a standard that it's that we have to stand by and it's strong China needs needs to know that You know the aircraft carrier issue We have the best aircraft carriers in the world and they're awesome 5,000 people and a lot of it's classified what they do, but you have an aircraft carrier ask Iran You know outside of your country the the the jets that we use in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan come over those aircraft carriers and China is now developing their first aircraft carriers the good news unless they steal more from us They're not going to be able to be as sophisticated as we are for probably the next ten years But it gives us the opportunity to Do the things we need to do and I said in the opening statement sequestration Really hurt our military and when the military a crystal tell you this when they get an order that yes, sir No, sir, and when they get these budgets that aren't where they need to be it puts us behind And the good news now we have the budgets moving forward as long as we can maintain our bipartisan relationship In the future and on this issue of the threat. This is a lot of it due to the hacking the IP theft Those kinds of methods, right? Yes And do you do you see those methods evolving in ways that we're able to keep up with every day You have to stay ahead of the technology every day You know I do I do a lot of the cyber. I actually represent NSA So I deal with a lot of cyber issues and by the way folks the United States of America NSA is not listening to you Illegally they have standards that that are a lot stronger than people know They probably do more to help our country in getting information and intelligence dealing with these threats when Russia China Iran Iraq Afghanistan ISIS and and that's very important and very relevant So and that gets even back to our schools and to develop STEM education and to make sure that future Generations are challenged and stay where we need to be to stay ahead of the threat of a Russia and China because again China China is known to be aggressive in the intelligence community and spying They have more spies probably in the world than anybody else and they do more hacking than probably anyone else But the thing that bothers me they are they are stealing all of this information We we don't anticipate a destructive attack with China. Oh my gosh, we owe China close to a trillion dollars and and so China is just looking to grow and and and to gain influence and that's what they're doing. That's what they're trying to do Let me let me turn to a piece of legislation Before we go on can I yes very quickly on this because I want to conclude with the military and then Pig back on that just talk about there a couple things to understand about the military and this is good President Xi promised our president in 2015 when they were expanding these atolls in the South China Sea as they were doing He promised us he promised our president. We will not militarize these and Immediately after that they did and they have very effectively And they've essentially expanded their their territory in a region influence very effectively because of that which is why it's so important just yesterday for us to You know maintain the reality that this is not Chinese territory. These are international waters international airspace yet B-52s Flying to through a contested area as the aid is their defense identification zone And we have to state that clearly now and not waiver on that. We're not going to concede You know hundreds of millions of acres of of of water and air to China Just because they've made this claim that these these are international waters international airspace We have to be firm on that and then the second thing that the Dutch we kind of transition to and that's the cyber And I'll just say that very quickly one of the great Challenges we have is an example of this project Maven where we are spending a boatload of money And that's very scientific But they have boatload of money on on our own artificial intelligence efforts To stay in the lead on that and look the United States for whatever reason our culture We are the creative genius of the world We have this creative spark that other countries just can't quite mimic But that's just not enough we have to have a committed and in a fiduciary Responsibility to being lead on this because China very clearly wants to be the leader on artificial intelligence Which then makes their cyber and all of these other capabilities so much more threatening with a lot of government support and investment Oh, you know on the on this on the artificial intelligence by the Chinese on by the Chinese and we have to that's a Government function as well. We can't rely on the market alone to do that We have to direct and also facilitate that so I wanted to Get to a piece of legislation that you've been very instrumental in passing which is the committee of foreign investment in the u.s Yeah known as siphias to those in the know which Reviews foreign investment in u.s. Businesses that might pose national security Threats so tell us what siphias is why it's important and why these reforms are so important I'd be curious. I won't make people raise their hand But I'd be curious if I said how many of you know what siphias is and had you do that well go ahead. How many of you know who knows That's surprising a surprising educated audience. Yeah that you are because most people even in even in you know Our area of work don't so this committee on foreign investment in the u.s. Essentially its regulation that you know Goes back to the 70s stating we need to protect our national security when we have foreign investment There are national security security overlaps there that we need to be aware of and be able to Control in some circumstances. Well, the regulatory effort there and the capabilities just simply were insufficient I mean by a vast margin and we've been trying for several years now to upgrade update that we did so recently with a Bill called firma, which is another version of siphias, but I've always argued and I think this is such a critical point I don't think China or Russia or any other nation can destroy us I don't believe that but I think that we can commit suicide and That's essentially what we're doing in some ways by assisting China and our adversaries in having a powerful position over us And so you've had something like a 700% increase in Chinese investment in high-tech Very sensitive industries in the last few years and we did that without adequate oversight And so firma with a new version of siphias allows the greater resources and a greater Authority to go in and look at some of these investments and say are we selling? very sensitive national security secrets to China for for nothing but money and financial Benefits of that and it allows us to have a much broader and a much And much more involved review of some of those transactions and I could give you many many examples of it I don't need to you can imagine yourself if you have a chip maker that has a very proprietary very important element that is Essential to our national security. They shouldn't be partnered with a Chinese company that will then have access and steal that technology And this had bipartisan support absolutely And Chris is considered an expert in siphias. He really knows and is focused on that Let me tell you an example of how I was involved when I was the ranking member of the intelligence committee and my Co-chair of the chair Mike Rogers and I did an investigation on Huawei and ZTE to two of the probably the largest telecom companies in China and in the world and They were in our country and they were attempting to grow and when to put their infrastructure in our country And we got very concerned because of the way it was happening and that they didn't weren't going to grow Pursuant our standards which would protect our citizens Anyone the way we saw it who had This technology that allowed the Chinese government to be able to Listen and see and get information what we were doing. We had an open hearing and the head of head of Huawei and ZTE I Asked a question. I said, you know, you're in a Chinese country Whatever in the end your government says that's what you have to do even if you're president or chairman of a major company like like Huawei and If you're your leadership tells you when you're in our country and you're selling your equipment to our citizens We want you to get information you deny them You could go to jail and these are the these are the issues that we were dealing with and that really upset Huawei and ZTE To the point where I visited the founder, which most people don't know I mean doesn't come out a lot the founder of Huawei And we met in Hong Kong and we had it was like a deposition for me asking questions And and they refused really to work with us now. We know that's a global economy We know there's competition But when it comes to protecting our security interests our number one priorities was best for our country And we felt very strongly the way that they were attempting to grow was wrong and it would it would really put us in a bad situation and Huawei was in England and England was having those problems So we work with Australia and and Mike Rogers and I Publicly because when you're on the intelligence committee you can't charge But we went on 60 minutes and we told about the threat on Huawei and ZTE and As a result they didn't go forward Well the years later they've come back and they want to come back in and to an extent they have one thing That just concerned me recently though is that they were selling Some of our technology it was in their equipment and they were selling that to Iran and also to North Korea And the good news is that President Trump That puts sanctions we had strong sanctions with Congress on them because of that But then all of a sudden a month later our president takes those sanctions off now I'm not going to get into any politics or whatever But you know you you have to have reasons for doing things and so at this point They're aggressively Broadway and ZTE or trying to come back in our country We we're trying to make sure we we stop them unless they do it pursuant to our standards so military aggression IP threat cyber aggression We've been talking about a lot of the the threats China's obviously seeking to be a global power Do you see bright spots in the relationship? Do you see places where our interests align such that we could identify? constructive ways of working together for for common goals I'll defer to the senior member for me. Okay. I'm a Democrat. Let's talk about the environment I think China has a very serious problem. Have you anybody here been to China and you know the smog How serious it is and they have realized I think after the Olympics that they had to do the head when they had the Olympics That they had to do something so I think we have a lot of common interests and China probably has more cars than any other country in the world and they have our cars for some reason they like Buick's but That's a bad comment about Buick. They just like have a lot of Buick's there, but you know, we have we That's what you call a backpedal Look, I have I have a GMC. So they're the same line. They're their family anyhow getting back to the issue You know you you have a situation where if we can work together and because of good minds you know China Graduates a lot more engineers than we do now I will say this that our our institutions and our universities are considered to be superior and so and we have an upper hand a lot of Chinese people who have a lot of money want their children to come to the United States and their programs to do that and I don't think that's a bad thing as long as they're there for the right reason what we have to have to deal with though Is to make sure that they're not stealing information and usually it to our disadvantage another area is infrastructure I mean infrastructure is something that we have to meet moving forward It creates a lot of jobs and again China has has invested about a hundred and seventy five billion dollars in our country But and we have a debt to them close You know close to what is it a hundred billion now or what was I've got my figure in there and and because we owe the money We should work together. I think there's no question. China is going to be strong. They're powerful They're educating their population So we always will have to be there together in this earth and the more that we can work together with them and Develop these issues and the more we can let them know that in our standards, you don't steal We don't steal from you You got to stop this stealing and when we can work these issues out And I give President Trump credit for calling these issues out as far as you know Stop doing the things that are disadvantaged our country. We need a more level playing field And that's what we have to do in our relationship with China Before we turn to the audience questions what What do you see as China's long-term objective? Well, that's a great question that is the question in many ways and I would actually Kind of build a foundation for that by again piggybacking on some things that Dutch has said I don't think China is full of bad people at all. I think if you'll allow a personal observation I there personally if I think we are all children of the same God Regardless of where you live or where what your culture is and that most people are good people. So in these Expressing my concerns. I don't mean indicate China's bad bad people. I don't believe that at all but Chinese leadership has a very different view of Their values then then us does I believe they're not a democracy And President Xi isn't going to step aside either. They don't have free and fair elections They don't value human dignity the same way that that we do I believe and so I think we have to look at them through a prism of They're not bad people and we need to find the areas that we can agree and accommodate But on the other hand they view the world very differently than we do and that's just truth So how do we work within that framework? And the second thing now coming to your question now. What are Chinese goals and ambitions? Well, they're very clear on that It's not a it's not a secret if you want to understand it go read made in China 2025 Which is their their goal which they're methodically achieving and by and large have achieved and that is to be Independent of any Western technology for anything that they need to have to have had all the through whatever means Necessary that they've used to be able to manufacture and produce anything essential to their economy their infrastructure their military and They've they've done that very effectively and if you want to know what their real long-term goals are beyond that read one Belt One Road Which is you know? 100th anniversary creation of the Communist Party in China in 2048 and and it describes very very Simply there I don't want to say ambition because it's more than ambition But because it's a methodical plan that again they're effectively carrying out to be not just the dominant influence in the region but to be the dominant influence in the world and And I think that they're committed to that. I think that that is their intention I think they view that they're right as a rising as a rising power and the question We come down to this and I've had I've actually had the chance to ask President Xi and other ministers this question the Thickety's The Thickety's tap that we're all familiar with and I've heard that pronounced differently and so if I did it wrong forgive me But it is this idea going back to you know ancient Greek philosopher Can a rising power and an established power as they as one rises will they come into conflict and history shows us that they Almost always do about 80% of the time and our challenge is it's to avoid that and to be able to have China rise Which they will and I understand that and I'm not saying they shouldn't But can we do it in such a way that we value human rights value democracy value Western Priorities and not come into a military conflict as a result of that. Well, and since we're at the US Institute of Peace who with the mission of Preventing and resolving violent conflict that is that is the critical question But let me build on what you just said with the first question from our audience Which is do you believe the true goal of China in Africa is to acquire natural resources? Or to position itself in Africa to access space for China and create For cyber and create an orbit to fulfill their political and economic goals all of the above I mean China is growing and they want to be the dominant power in the world their goal in 2040 I think what their 100th anniversary what they're doing is that they're building Structures all over the world Africa. They just built a port in Djibouti anybody been to Djibouti. It's not much But it's near Ethiopia, but it's on the water where ports are They're they're trying to get resources, you know China's huge population and and they're attempting to get resources but what they're doing is they're going to these governments that don't have any money and And and they're lending them the money they're building Community centers government buildings that type of thing and then these governments default and then China comes in and they have more power They come to the to the monetary fund to bail them out, but when they bail them out China then owns these properties and we we really have to stand up especially in Africa and what's happening that is their style And you talked about China generally the Chinese people are good people I've been involved with some Chinese people throughout my career. I had a relationship with a family Who's whose father was the last governor of the Shanghai province? They're not alive anymore and her husband was a shipping company and They had to flee when the communists took over and they flee to Taiwan where a lot of those Chinese and But I learned a lot about the history and and the Chinese culture and how pride the Chinese people are and you know Everyone in the end wants to have a home to be able to raise their family to be able to eat to have safety and those type of things But because of the I guess the Chinese government that took over They had so many people I guess they felt this is the way We're gonna have to manage our country, but then it grew and grew and you know To this day that we love our democracy We like our freedoms our freedom of speech and all these things and that's not what China stands for And if we don't continue to grow our military to be strong to deal with the issues of cyber and all these threats that we have You know, where will the world be and I do want to say this and this is really serious We have a lot of issues when I was on the gang of eight and intelligence people to say what keeps you up at night And I'd say well spicy Mexican food that doesn't But number two probably the most serious threat is is nuclear weapons if China Russia the United States get into a nuclear war The earth is over as we know it. We still have the capability to stop Iran or North Korea but those three countries have to have to work through peace in order not not for this to occur but The nuclear weapons but but then you get into the cyber realm and the cyber realm is so serious because it touches everybody everything anywhere and if we don't start developing standards and it's going to be tough for for our country To come together and especially we're not talking China We're talking China and Russia to start dealing with this sophistication of cyber Because we talk about our privacy. There's no privacy when you're getting hacked all the time Well, let me build on something that both of you have said and that is there have been a number of comments that say Basically China has been a free rider on the international system They've benefited from the the set of norms and institutions that currently guide the world how do you see that as a leverage point or an opportunity in Dealing with China's interests and the transgressions that you've just identified I Want to make sure understand the question very quickly. I want to add one thing to Dutch and he's exactly right You go all through Africa developing countries. You see ports airports roads community centers wide range of things China is not doing that out of compassion or charity. They're doing it because it's in their national interests Strategically and they are very clear that it remains within their national interests and then we need to Appreciate that's their incentives. I'm sorry Nancy. Tell me. I'm not sure I understand the question You've both talked about the importance of of maintaining our Democratic systems the values that have informed it that have informed our international engagements There have been a number of characterizations of China's Having been a free rider on that system that they've gained a lot from that system without Contributing or arguably respecting some of those values and norms Do you see that? How do you see that unfolding in the future if China continues to rise threaten that system? Or not respect it particularly Related to the considerable investments. They're making around the world in Africa and elsewhere. Yeah Well again, you have to understand what China is going to do What is in China leadership's interest not what's in the world's interest? Not what's in Africa's and not what's necessarily in Chinese middle-class or Chinese workers interest and We have facilitated the rise and the ability of them to integrate themselves into it the new century that we leave that Foundation in the 70s, but if you want to know how China is going to react to a global Governance look how they treat their own people and that's all you have to that's all you have to know Is how do they treat their own people? Do they allow them to freedom or do they repress their freedoms? Do they allow them the ability to speak move say get educated and travel internationally or do they repress us in and You know many people look at China. They think well, they're just like us They're just kind of a different form of democracy. In fact, if you go to leaders around Africa or developing nations, I mean they have this choice before them They look at China go well, it seems to be working out for them. They're rising. They're bringing their poor in the middle class They seem to be functioning government. There's not a lot cast and then frankly they look at us and go holy cow You know look at the chaos look at democracy is messy. It's emotional. It's you know It's not not a smooth road There's a lot of bumps along the way and you know, they're given with this choice and we have to remind them Yeah, democracy democracy is messy and it's and it's chaotic sometimes But look at the outcome we give versus this smooth transition and have been a very hierarchical position and power which doesn't value and doesn't reward human dignity and human innovation and And those things that we consider foundational to everything that we believe And this is why so many people from China Who come here to work want to come here because of the freedoms and liberties that we have Versus some of the things that happen in their country and the oppression and big government with you everywhere so Here's a here's a question from Twitter. What impact do you think the Trump? Someone else will be interesting question from Twitter What impact do you think the US China trade wars will have on China's neighbors? Yeah, yeah, well If we are engaged in a long-term Strategic committed to use that term trade war with China we will win that they have more to lose on this than we do But it's going to be there's going to be casualties along the way I've had more conversations about this over the last six months than any other single subject with constituents back home everyone from shepherds farmers ranchers to high-tech Imaging to cyber to you know chip makers I mean there's a wide range of people who are affected and troubled by this as am I generally because I'm a free trader I'm a conservative. I believe that free trade is one of the foundations for conservative thought So there are Although I appreciate and understand the president's goals and it's not just economic for him It's much more than its national security and it's in its fair trade But there are people who are paying a price and some of those will be The neighbors around China because then and I can conclude that with this thought They have a choice and they can look at the region and say well, will you be here looking at the US? Will you be here? Can we count on you and both and both from a? diplomatic military position but also from an economic position which is why the failure of the Trans-Pacific Partnership was very Meaningful event because many of them looked I said you guys aren't committed to the region economically Therefore we're compelled to partner with China even though they may not want to and that's the end result for this You have neighbors around China who will then be compelled to partner with China? Even though they may not want to because they do not know if we're committed to the region or not And it's bad for them in almost every way if they're compelled to do that We're going down a razor dangerous road with trade I think we've had a punch counter punch I believe that what the president was trying to do But I believe he also doesn't have a lot of sophistication in that area He was trying to say China what you're doing is not fair and you know the monetary issues and all of that and he called it on The table okay in trade war he punched they punched he punched and Eventually, they've got to stop punching start talking because it's going to affect the whole world economy Because of the United States and China and we are such major powers And I think if we get some reasonable heads together Maybe we we should be able to work it out But if we can bring China to the table because some of the things that they were doing were not fair It was outrageous. They were taking advantage of a lot of things happening in our country. So let's see where it goes There are a lot of issues out there but trade when it when it affects your pocketbook I know right now the the farmers are having a serious problem and and because of how it's going to affect them and the and they're not as they don't they're not as concerned the ones I've talked to about Russia as they are about their own pocketbooks and Once that message gets out Hopefully we'll take this a lot more serious get some of the best minds We have in this country on trade and resolve the issue and just in 30 seconds This is something we had to do as uncomfortable as it is We could not go the next generation and not have as Dutch said and not have fair trade between and it's not just China By the way, you was the same way. Yeah, and so worse and so the president reset that it's painful There are some things that make me very uncomfortable, but strategically we had to confront it at some point Yes, I mean as well do it now and get it on it get it out of the way So that's got the experts involved now who know know this science So I have a couple of questions that are essentially President Trump said yesterday that there isn't any evidence that China is interfering in our election You know, we just talked a lot about cyber aggression in different ways Have you seen any evidence on this is this an issue that you know We were a lot of focuses on Russia's interference with our election. Is this is this an issue with China? You seen the president said there wasn't evidence or did he say without oh without evidence. He claimed that there was yeah Well, I think I think he has evidence, but isn't able to cite that some of this is classified to you know China's philosophy in the intelligence world is volume They probably have more spies out there in the world than anyone else they do more hacking than any any other country and So they're they're gonna get whatever they can get for leverage or whichever to their benefit the focal point now is Russia no question and you know Hopefully when Mueller finishes the investigation, we'll get the facts all this back and forth We need to get the facts and then we can move forward Yeah, and so as far as China short China's gonna be all over everything we do because they attack us all the time And that's that's a that's a problem. And I don't you know, where's I Think President you Understands that's an issue with us and we're gonna have to make it a bigger issue Because down the world I other than nuclear weapons This is probably one of the most serious threats because when you can knock someone's infrastructure water Electricity, I mean these are things that can happen if we we don't get control of cyber security And Nancy look at this doesn't you don't have to have a top-secret security briefing to know the answer to this question How could you assume that China is going to attack or probe? Virtually everywhere, but not probe in our election in our election process whether it's voting machines or voter registration Whatever, how could you possibly believe that they would do everything else but not do that? Of course, they're gonna try and do that. And by the way, it's not just China and Russia It's North Korea and Iran and a lot of other people and we talk about Russia's propaganda China has a huge propaganda machine Yeah, and that's part of what they do. Yeah So let's wind up with Sort of a big question and you can bring up any topics that you feel like we haven't addressed but When you think about our relationship with China in 10 to 20 years from now, what do you think is likely? What do you think is optimal? Well, and I'll go first and I'll let the more senior member conclude because he's smarter and wiser and better-looking. I just want to clean up What you're saying? I Would go back a very again very foundational China's not full of bad people But China leadership has a very different view of the future than we do and as long as we look at it through a realistic prism I'm not I'm not predicting doom, but I'm Suggesting the US has to be firm and the US has to be committed to a relationship that Recognizes the realities of what China's values and the values of their leadership are as long as we're able to do that Just like we did with the former Soviet Union. We coexisted with them We didn't end up destroying each other and eventually one one system was accepted as you know Desired outcome for for most of the world and one was not I think that's likely to be the outcome here But we have to manage a real difficult path forward as we as we walk through that minefield Okay, well as far as China's concerned where we go It's up to the to the leadership and hopefully people like Chris and I who I mean I know I've been to China four times and when they weren't happy with me about Huawei or ZTE And then I was over in China and had a banquet with them. So, you know, if we it's about trusting relationships We're competing. It's just like an athletic contest. You can compete with the games over You know, then you work together and the more that we have and we have a lot of Chinese people who've come to the United States who've gone to our universities and want to stay here a lot and The more that we can learn about each other and and where we are and what we want But we cannot agree on the civil liberty issues that's going in China the fact that the people are oppressed in certain areas That's not who we are. We can't agree to that whether we can resolve that I don't know but I think the more that we deal with them and the environment and Economic development if you could if you can work business China has money So a lot of people want China's money to do infrastructure to build things that we don't want to spend the money Or we don't want to raise taxes to spend the money And that's where we need to go and and because it's such a superpower and I think Chinese people are good people I mean the people that I've known and relationships that I have in the Chinese community are super They're honest most of them. I'm not saying their government is not at all I don't trust their government at all, but I think the people themselves are are unique And and and want the same things that we want where we could if we could work with China on Cyber standards that we could work with China on space again. Where are we going in space? There are things we could share and work together And we're really sharing the United States because we have a lot of Chinese people that are going to our Universities learning our standards learning, you know what we know about space and and everything that we do whether it's economy So I I hope for the benefit of the world and for our grandchildren We always like to say that in politics that that we can keep moving forward with those relationships And that's where your organization comes in try to not always talk about how tough and big and strong We are we hate we need to be there or world history shows you can be attacked or taken over But it's the personal relationships of trust it's the relationship that Chris and I have two different parties our parties aren't getting along We work together. We can talk together. We might disagree, but I don't hate him because he disagrees with me or vice versa Yeah, thank you, Dutch. I want to thank both of you for joining us here today for your focus on a critical issue with a lot of complexity fraught with opportunities and Significant problems appreciate the leadership that you bring including two complex issues and For showing us that this bipartisan spirit in Congress is is alive and making progress on critical national security interests A lot of events it's 12 o'clock and we're over that's great We got the warning from our Aviator, thank you everybody joining us