 And I need to make sure that we start recording. All right. So, pursuant to the governor's order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law, general law chapter 30a, section 18, this meeting of the Disability Access Advisory Committee is being conducted via remote participation. I'd like to begin by conducting a roll call. So, I'll just ask people to make sure that they can hear and be heard and to mute themselves afterwards. So, begin with the chair. Myra Ross. OK. President. All right. Elise. Here I am. Sorry. Sarah. I'm here. All right. Tori. I'm here. I want to remind everyone that this meeting is being recorded to the web and could be shown on Amherst media and broadcast on the town of Amherst YouTube channel. And chair, if you'd like to call your meeting to order, I have 1131 as the time. Okay. There are some attendees that I think I can move over. So there are two of the town counselors are in the attendance and one community member. I see Marty is there. So let me promote her to. Okay. Okay. I will call the meeting to order. It's a packed agenda. So I want it. We can go to announcements, but I want to make. For E into an announcement because we might not get that far. And what it is, is there are two statewide meetings. That are going to be held for any members of commissions on disabilities from anywhere in the state. Ones on July 19 ones on August 31. You have to sign up and we can send. If you haven't received it already, Pamela sent it a while back, but I just want to bring it to people's attention that you can sign up to go to these, um, their three hour meetings of people from different. Disability committees. They said that. Um, agenda is going to be the same for both. So you can choose one or the other, or if you want to go to both, you can. So we'll send that out again. So you can register. Registration for the July 19th is before July 5th. And we will not meet again before then. So I wanted to bring it up. Um, the first thing, um, on the agenda is for us to talk about proposed legislation for accessible trails. And we have a presenter Meg Bandara. Is that are you here? Yes. Excellent. Okay. So, um, I have to say that. Initially I was very excited about this and I still am. But the information that you sent is completely inaccessible, which is sort of, sort of ironic. Since the trail is supposed to be accessible. So accessible trails are great. But if you can read about them, it would be better. I use keynote, which has accessible features, but apparently when it translates to a PDF, even though there's a checkbox to keep it accessible features included, apparently it isn't so I can send you the original version. I'm so sorry about that. I didn't realize. What's the keynote? What's a keynote file? Is it a text file? It's a presentation file. It's it's max version of, um, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Power points. Oh, okay. I don't, I probably can't read that because I don't have a Mac, but I'm also happy to provide a text version. I didn't realize. I would love it as a text version. Great. I will do that. I thought it was pretty funny that an accessible trail presentation. Well, it's not, it's not very funny. It's really horrible. Well, I would use that word too. Okay. Sure. Yeah. And I'm happy to send it over. As soon as we're done today, honestly. So, okay. Let me just go through the general things about the bell. So I found it's unpaved trails for all, which is a grassroots advocacy group that started with trying to just get an unpaved accessible trail in North Hampton. And we've grown to do federal and state advocacy. And the reason I'm here today is because there is a bill up. In the state legislature for consideration, which is called an act, expanding access to trails for people of all abilities. And it's s.446. Excuse me one second. Could everyone other than Meg, please mute. Because there's background noise. Okay. Great. So it's s.446 in the Senate and each dot seven, six, nine in the house. And the bill was originally presented by Senator Cumberford. And it has now been given to the joint committee on environment and natural resources for a hearing. So the most common type of trail that we do have in the state that's accessible or the rail trails and probably the least common type we have that are accessible are unpaved or water trails. This bill would look at all types of trails in the state. And when you're thinking about accessible trails, this is an issue that really covers public health, environmental justice, and equity. The public health portion of this is that we have heard over and over again, study after study that green space is healthy space. And it improves things like physical and mental wellbeing. And it reduces stress, but those are particularly important for people living with disabling conditions because we are, we generally score lower on quality of life and standard of living measurements than our peers without disabling conditions. And statistically speaking, if you have limited mobile mobility, you are far more likely to suffer a stress related illness than your non mobility limited peer. So, stress reduction and quality of life are things that we know that nature can help a lot with, but it also turns out that green space isn't all created equal. So the less built the environment feels, the more stress relief studies are showing that we get from spending time in that space. So when you have things like parks and paved trails, those are nice spaces, but we probably don't get as much stress relief as we would if we were in more natural spaces. When you look at this issue of access on trails through an environmental justice lens, it really is just that all residents should have access to these health and wellbeing benefits and that access to nature is just really a human right. And then in terms of equity, we're really talking about most of the time public land. And if it isn't public land, it's land that's being developed using public funding. So access is really also a civil rights issue. And it's not just a few people in Massachusetts, 33 to 47% of the state's population could benefit from accessible trails. That's 17% who are seniors, 11 to 25% who are under age 65 and living with a disabling condition. And then children who are under age five, whose parent or caregiver or family member is often using something like a stroller, or a stroller or a stroller, or a stroller, or a stroller, or a stroller, or a stroller, or a stroller, or a stroller, or a stroller. And so that's about 2.3 to 3.2 million people in the state. And then some of the reasons why we need a bill to address access on trails. is really hard to find or is just non-existent. And then even on rail trails, which are considered accessible spaces, access can still be improved in lots of ways. And our funding doesn't really reflect the population and our needs, and it isn't really addressing access on trails in an equitable way. So there are also a lot of stereotypes about trails. So we're not always getting high quality trails when we're getting accessible trails. And then the bill itself, if it's passed, would develop a working group, which would really importantly to me be comprised of at least a third of its members being people living with disabling conditions because we just don't have a seat at that table normally. And it would also mandate that the group be diverse, both racial and ethnically, but also in the location. So coming from different parts of the state, which I think is always important for all of us here in Western Mass, we recognize. And then the working group has timelines built in to the bill, which I think are also important. So the goal of the bill overall would be to increase the amount of accessible trails within three years and also increase the dollars going towards accessible trail projects within three years. And to do that, it also has some timelines that are baked in, which would be, within three months of the bill passing, the working group would be established. Within 12 months of the working group being established, their report would be due, and then the DCR would be required to respond to that report. And then again, that three years time of having increased trails and increased trail dollars. What I'm asking for today is really just this committee's formal support in terms of a letter that would go to the chairs of the committee that's reviewing the bill. And then also, if you would like to take it, your support a step further, we have framework language that you could introduce to your local government so that your local government, your town council could pass a resolution that also says that Amherst supports the bill. And then there are lots of ways you could help as an individual. If you're here and you're interested, you could sign the petition, which is on our website, which is unpaved trailsforall.org. You can also, we're always looking for advocates to help. So you can also be an advocate if this issue is important to you. So I'm happy to take any questions and also to say that representative Dome is also a co-sponsor of this bill. I have a question too. I guess I have unmuted now. Can you hear me now? Yes, we can hear you now. Oh, okay. Elise, go ahead, I'm sorry. My question is, this sounds wonderful, but how does one with mobility issues, how does one get to these trails, to the accessible trails? Right, so that's definitely an issue that this working group would look at because that's a problem. In all of Western Massachusetts, I only know of one trail that can be accessed by public transportation. And that is not even just the bus service route, it is a special request stop. So accessing through public transportation is definitely a problem that the working group would, I hope, look at and address. But then in general, also just having information available about the trails in an easy to find way so that you can get to them through private transportation. Hmm. Okay. Does the material you sent us include a response that you just gave us to Elise's question? No, but I can send it. Yeah, that's an important thing. If you have like for me, I'm legally blind and I have a guide dog and I rely on public transportation. And if I can't get to the, I would love to walk on these trails, but if I can't get to them, I can't help. Great. And I'm sure other people have issues too. Yeah. Yeah, it's absolutely a problem. Getting to a trail independently is definitely a problem. So the trail at the old Mount Tom Park, whatever the state is calling it, that's the only trail that can be accessed through a special request from the public transportation route. This is Tori. Tori. I can't find my raise hand. Sorry. And I've been to the Silvio Conte, the Fort River Trail in Hadley, and you can take PBTA there. The address is not quite right, but if you see, I had to explain to them how to get there and also that's an issue because Moody Bridge Road now is blocked off, so you can only access it from one direction. So it's difficult, but I have been able to get there. But you have to explain to the bus driver, which unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. I'm out. Yeah. Yeah. Tori, do you find that trail to be completely accessible? It's not. It's not. It is when they keep it up. Yeah. Great. But they need to put more product down. I'm not sure what you call it. It is not pavement. It's not pebbles either. No, it's sort of dirt. It's kind of, I don't even know. I guess you could call it dirt. It's gray. And also the, so it sinks. So there's lips on the wooden walkways when you're walking on them. So if you're not careful, you could trip. But they do have the guide for someone who is blind or low vision or walking with a walking on them. Stick, the white cane can knock it and then know that you're getting close to the edge. However, some of those are broken as well. I went in, I guess it was April. And it is in, it needs some more repair. They are working on it. You can see that they've replaced things, but it needs more repair. Yeah. And I think that trail has suffered since the pandemic with the increased interest in use outside, that's one of the most popular trails. And I think that again goes back to the need for more trails and more of these spaces so that they don't get so beat up because the accessibility filters or is non-existent as soon as the maintenance starts to become an issue. And it's also a federal trail. It's not a state trail. And that's a crushed zone surface, which is a pretty typical accessible surface for trails. Just, I'm sorry, I'm speaking out of turn, Elise again. No, you're not, go ahead. So some of these trails also, bicycle lists tend to go on some of these things. Is this accessible trail? Are they gonna allow that? Because people with mobility issues often can't deal with cyclists. Right. So one of the things about unpaved trails is that they're for pedestrians only. So no bicycles, only walkers, spacers and mobility equipment, obviously. You can support. I know. You don't follow rules, yeah. Right. That's one of the things that's actually happening on the bike trails is there's definitely conflict between especially more higher speed use electric bike use. So people are looking for spaces that are bike free. So unpaved trails, which we need more of, would be bike free spaces. Good. So from us, you want a letter of support. So can you send us something about, as I said, what you sent is not accessible. So we would need information about to whom we should send it, about who the principal players are. You said that Alisa's question about how to get to the trails is not addressed in your PowerPoint, in the materials that have gone to the legislature. Where is that? Cause she asked a very important question and I'm not sure where you are. Right. So that would be something that would be specifically addressed by a working group after the bill would be passed, but I'm happy to send my response to that. So basically the bill would create a working group that would look at all of these questions because no one's really looking at all of these questions and looking at the trail system as a whole. And then they would provide a report that would give recommendations on areas where accessibility can be improved or areas where we're not even addressing accessibility right now. Okay. So this has been proposed. So what is the calendar by which we need to work so we can? So I can't really answer that question because the way this system works when a bill is brought to the state, it gets assigned to a committee, which is the right now the joint committee on environment and natural resources, which is where a letter would go to. And they have a hearing about a bill, but we only get about a week's notification when something comes up for a hearing. It could be any time between a week from now till the end of the year basically is what I've been told. Okay. So time could be of the essence. I wanna tell you that we have at this meeting two people from the town council who are here. So they're hearing this conversation. We have an official liaison who could take this to the town council if we ask her to. And there is another member of the town council who's here. So they are hearing this presentation at the same time that we're hearing it. So does anyone wanna make a motion about whether or not the DAAC should support this project? This is Tori and I'd like to make a motion to support the project. This is, and I'll second that motion. Fabulous, okay. So is there any more discussion about it or can we vote and move on? Further discussion? Meg, I just have a question. You said it moved into the joint committee. What was the name of the joint committee again? Is that in the paperwork? I don't remember that. It is, it is. And it'll also be in the text only version I send but it's the joint committee on environment and natural resources. Environment and actual resources? Natural resources. Natural, okay. You're hard to understand. Okay. Thank you. Okay, so are we ready to vote? Yes. Yes, okay. All in favor of the motion to support the thing for access, the motion for unpaid accessible trails. Say yes. Yes. Yes. Okay, so I heard Tori, I heard Elise, I heard Sarin. I didn't hear you. You heard me, Marty. Oh, Marty's here, I heard you. Okay, I didn't hear Ian. Ian's a yes also. Okay, and is Cody here? No, Cody's not here. Okay. Do we have six? Yes. But Councillor DeAngelo has her hand raised. Okay, great. Go ahead, Pat. Yeah, I'm kind of breaking the rules. I wanted to say that I would be happy to co-sponsor with you a resolution in the council. If, you know, so that DACA would be the community sponsor. And so I just wanted to make sure I also got the material so that I could work with that. Okay. Great. Okay, that's great. So Meg, if you can send us the text version, that would be terrific, because then we'll send it at least, I would know what to do with it. And Elise would do it. Okay, this is great. Thank you for bringing this. You know, it is great to go outside. You know, and it is more stressful to walk on the bike path than to walk in, like even at Silvio Conti, there's something about it that is just really cool. And there are a couple other places that I can get to because my husband drives, but, you know, what was, you know, there are so many trails full of rocks and routes and treachery that more unpaved trails is just fabulous. So thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. So now we can move to, let me see, let's see. Okay, wait, I got to get to it. The variance application for the drake. Okay, my understanding, just to cut to the chase of this, I think John Cune is here representing the petitioner. And my understanding is that the building inspector approved of this and you are now going to the state board for what reason? Because it sounds to me like you made many attempts to make this accessible and to not only audience people coming in usually when people make things accessible, they think in terms of the audience coming in and they don't ever think in terms of people with disabilities actually being the presenters or performers. So there are stages all over that are not accessible. And it seems to me like that was one of your primary goals in doing this to make sure that you considered that people with mobility impairments would want to get onto the stage. And for that, I really thank you because that is not typical. So I don't understand the reason for the request for the variance because the building inspector approved it. So can you get to that part, John? In the interest of time. I'd be happy to, for those of you who don't know me, my name is John Kuhn, I've lived in Amherst for 48 years, was founder of Kuhn Rital Architects and I'm currently vice president of the Downtown Amherst Foundation, the DAF, which is the organization that runs the Drake. As you probably know, the Drake has been open for since last April, so over a year. And we knew at the time that we were opening that we would have to make the entire facility accessible because it's a change of use and it's a large enough project. The main door is accessible from renovations that were done in the 90s but the interior of that space originally was a bank and then it was the high horse for a while and now we converted it into a performance venue. When we, the entire space is accessible, we knew that the stage should be accessible but we also realized that because of the shape of the room and the configuration of the space that it would be very difficult to put a permanent ramp in that was there all the time. So we thought about how we might do this and our concept was to create what we're calling a retractable permanent ramp. In other words, it's a ramp that is 16 feet long because the stage is 16 inches high and it's stored under the stage and we pull it out whenever there's a requirement and there's two types of requirements. One would be when a performer requests that. That has happened once in this past year where a guitarist for a punk rock band was in a wheelchair. So we put that, the ramp up at his request. And the second time is whenever there's some kind of public performance where somebody from the public might get up on the stage. An example would be our open mic nights once a month. So we felt that this was really meeting the spirit of the code, the accessibility code in that the stage, which is not a public space but is a space that can be used on certain occasions and we make the stage accessible on those occasions. So we presented this concept to Rob Moore, the building commissioner, and he thought it was a good idea and accepted it. And that is how we constructed the stage with a storage area underneath. We bought a commercial ramp. I don't know if any of you have seen it in place, but we put it up when is required. So this was questioned. I guess there was a complaint made to the state that we didn't have a ramp. And we had a meeting actually Ms. Young was there, Ms. Moisten was there with a fellow named Jeff Dugan from the state. And he thought the ramp was great, but he felt like we should get a variance from the AAB. And so that meeting was on March 27th. We submitted an application for variance request on June 6th and that goes to the AAB. And in doing so, the application has to be copied to the building commissioner, to your committee and to Stavros. And so that is why you have received this request. I also want to thank you for seeing that was just submitted about a week ago. And we appreciate that you've been able to put us on your agenda so quickly. We have not been scheduled for a hearing yet, but there will be a hearing at the state level once they've gone through their process. So your disability committee is really looking at this request because it's gone to the state. And we would like your support on this, of course, but that's the reason it's before you, Myra. Okay. Do any DAAC members have any questions for John Kuhn? This is Tori and I have a question. Is it posted anywhere for the public to see that you have the accessible ramp? I don't know that it's posted anywhere. It's there, if the public is there and is able to go up on the stage and it's something that's presented to any performer that signs a contract to come in. So they certainly are aware of it. They know. Okay. And does the drink every website? Yeah, I realized that it's not a public space, but my recommendation would be that you post on your social media and your website that you have a portable ramp that's available upon request. Sure, good idea. And that will help alleviate this issue. Good suggestion, thank you. You're welcome. If I may, we have a facilities packet that goes out to all agents, managers, and performers that we're working with. And it is included in our facilities. It tells everything about our facility, how the stage works, how big our stage is, what our back line is, our production managers contact, et cetera. So that is part of what we send out to anybody who's looking to perform at the Drake. And when we do host our open mic nights, which is the night that it is, it's the only night that the stage is open to the public. We do, we have on social media posted pictures of the ramp and the stage in use with the ramp, but we can do more. Absolutely. Would you identify yourself, please? Sorry, Gabrielle. Oh, Gabrielle. Okay, cool. Yes, Gabrielle Gould. All right, excellent. Okay, so you do put it in the packet. It is on the social media. And if it could just generally be on the website for people's general information, that would be terrific. Does anybody have any questions about the ramp? I mean, if the man in the wheelchair who wanted to perform was able to use it, it is probably quite fine. It's a commercial ramp. And so the first question is, there were two questions for them. One of them has to do with the lower handrail and the other one has to do with, do we think it's okay in general for you to have a ramp? Is that what you wanna know? Yes, whether the retractable ramp is accessible, and then there's a second item that we asked the request for. This was at Mr. Dugan's request. And that is the fact that the code requires two rails on a ramp, a higher upper rail and a lower rail. And the lower rail, they're both supposed to be continuous. Our upper rail is continuous, but because this is a commercial ramp, and because the way it's constructed, the lower rail is interrupted by vertical supports every so often. I don't think it really affects the use of the ramp by anyone, but since it was noted by Mr. Dugan, we felt we should also put that as a second request. How far apart are the verticals? They're two foot eight apart. And the ramp is 16 feet long. Okay, so there's about six of them. Yes. Okay. What's it made out of? Yeah. If I could share my screen, I would be able to show you images of the ramp so you could all see. Almost all. I don't know how to share my screen though. Okay. Almost, sorry. All right, I have to give you permission. And Myra, I just wanted to point out that Marty has her hand up. Okay, so while she's doing that, Marty, go ahead. Yeah, I just wanted to say, John, I thought this is a very elegant solution to a very difficult problem. Your space is pretty small. You don't have a lot of space and you lose a lot of seats when you pull the ramp out. But having, and yes, it doesn't meet the letter of the state law, but it does meet the ADA by giving an alternative solution. And the way that you're operating the drake I think solves, it meets all of the requirements of the ADA if not the letter of the state law. And that lower handrail, I don't know who uses that. You know, it's sort of a, it's a very difficult problem. I know I've struggled with it for years getting that lower handrail continuous when you need to have it standing by itself, like in this situation. So I think you've done an excellent job on this. Thank you. Do you wanna make a motion, Marty? Yeah, I'll make a motion that the DAAC approve these details, this variance. And I would say these are real details and it's right for the drake to have come forward to have this variance on file so that there won't be a problem if someone goes to the DOJ about it. Okay. Myra, before you asked the committee for additional comments, I did wanna point out that you do have members of the public in the audience. So I don't know if you wanna have public comment or... We wanna hold. If there's someone in the community who wants to make a public comment, it would be limited to three minutes. And we could do that. Okay. Who is here? There is a person with their hand up. So... Well, actually, before we do that, can we see the presentation? Can we see Gabrielle screen first? Yeah. Okay. Okay. I have... Okay, Gabrielle, go ahead. Myra, I have a question. Oh, okay. Go ahead. So what I do, I use the wheelchair as you all know, when I go up a ramp, I pull myself, not just by my wheels, but grabbing the railing. So, and then going down the hill, going down the ramp, I also have my hands on the rail. So, I mean, I have to, in a case like that, I have to make sure that I'm not blocked by these vertical bars. So that was just one concern. But I can hold on to my wheels, but sometimes, you know, I get, I feel like I'm getting a better grab by clinging onto the rails. So I don't know if others have experienced similar situations or is it just me? I don't know. This is Tori, and I was just gonna make a comment that people who are using manual wheelchairs would use the lower bar. And that's what it's there for. But with the situation at the drake and the size, you know, what they're dealing with, it's a small area. I do think that this is, you know, a good choice. And they really, I don't think had too much, you know, other choices because of the size of the building and the area. Gabriel, is there something that you wanted to show us from the screen? I can just describe the picture that we have up on the screen, which is the 16 foot commercial grade retractable ramp in position. This retractable ramp takes two people about 15 minutes to put into place. It is very sturdy and incredibly stable. It has railings on both sides, as John Kuhn was describing with too high up railing and a lower railing. Because we take the railings out and lay them flat on the ramp itself in order to put it into its garage, they do have the vertical supports to maintain. And I'm not quite sure if there would ever be a way that we could get a continuous line at the bottom of the ramp. The one gentleman who did perform on our stage, who we had the ramp up in place for upon their arrival, remarks that it was A, the first place he's ever played at out of thousands of venues that their punk rock band plays in, that had accessibility to the stage, but that it also was, you know, sort of everything you could have hoped for. Again, we only put this up when it is requested by a member of a performance group that we have hired to come and play at the Drake or for our open mic nights, which are open to the public. We also do several high school fundraising evenings for their school music program with jazz orchestra and the fine arts center, the entire performing arts. And we always ask the faculty there, if they have any students that will need any accommodations and have this up in place for them as well. So that is the description of the image on the screen that we're showing you now. I'm bringing it now to a, as if you were entering the ramp in a wheelchair or walking up at point of view. So you can also see how the handrails work. And again, as Mr. Kuhn said, it is a 16 foot ramp one inch per, one foot per one inch of grade. So it is completely up to ADA standards. And now this is an image of it as if you were coming off the stage and going down into the audience. Any questions for me on these? It's Elise here. I just want to comment that this is, I want to thank you guys for doing this because I think it's also gonna set an example for other venues. I just think this is really wonderful. Thank you. I also did want to point out on the Drake's website, we have an FAQ page and you'll see here, one of the questions, one of the frequently asked questions is, is the Drake ADA compliant slash handicapped accessible? And the answer is yes, 100% accessible throughout entrances, exits, bathrooms, even the stage. Everyone has full access to the Drake and that was part of our mission when we were building this venue for the community. Okay. Thank you. So it is on your website. It is. Okay, great. So Marty made a motion, we didn't get a second. I just want to make sure we have the details. So do we have a second to Marty's motion? Oh, so I'll take a second. All right. I thought you were going to hear from- I am, but I wanted to make sure we got a second. So if we have public comment that is pertinent to the accessibility of this ramp, that would be great. All right. I don't know who is- So I'm going to bring in the first person and promote them to a panelist and I will do the timing for three minutes. Okay, thank you. All right. So let's see if I can figure out who the people are. Okay. My name is Vera Cage. I'd like to make a public comment. Can you hear me? Yes. Thank you. And is it Chair Mayra Ross? Yes. Hi. Thank you also for your service at the Amherst public schools. Oh, okay. Different life, okay. Exactly. I've had children that have gone through the school system. I live in Amherst, Massachusetts, and I am the resident that has put forward the complaint to the state in regards to the drake and the stage and the ramp situation. I was pretty aggrieved when learning that Hazel's Blue Lagoon across the street, the building commissioner gave them such a hard time with their ramp, making sure that it needed to be permanent, that it needed to be constructed in certain specificities. And so when I frequented the drake, I noticed that there wasn't a ramp. And I was able to pull Paul Balkeman, the town manager to ask him and he was able to immediately find the architect, Mr. Kahn, who gave some remarks earlier. And he said, you know, it would be too big and bulky and we'd lose a lot of seating. Of course, as a business, you don't want to lose space that could be, you know, make your money. And that was my concern that there were these two unequal treatments, right? And I want to put race into it as well. You know, Hazel's Blue Lagoon is owned by two black men or it is a black owned business. And across the street, you know, you have the drake that received over $300,000 of ARPA money to do a whole gutting and rebuild. So it's not like, you know, this has been around and, you know, the state laws came in. The building commissioner knew what he was doing because it was, you know, part of the requirements to open. And so I was really surprised that the building commissioner was able to approve the opening of the drake without any stipulations to putting forward a variance application with the state. So this is very unusual. I would like to remark that, you know, this variance is coming over a year after the drake has been fully operating. And so if I didn't put forward my complaint, we wouldn't have this conversation. And so, you know, this is probably outside of your purview to consider matters of justice because, you know, if one business was forced to have a permanent RAM, why wasn't the drake forced to do the same, especially when it received so much of federal and public money, right? That's pretty unusual. You know, Hazels spent a lot of money to do what they were needed to do in order to comply with regulations. And so we have a tale of two cities, unequal treatment, and what your vote is going to be widely publicized. You're setting a precedent for this town, for this Commonwealth, what you do as a community that's charged with representing folks with disabilities. You're at time, so if you'll just finish. I'll wrap up by just giving a remark is that before you vote, consider who you represent. And it's not about profit or money. It is about the people that may want to come to the stage and be welcomed no matter if they're, you know, with a wheelchair or with a walker. If there's somebody in the stage that the performer wants to bring up, they should be able to come on. That's what happens during these evenings where we are having a good time and celebrating. No one wants to stop the show. You're at time. Thank you. Thank you. No, I appreciate the comment. I guess I want to say that first of all, our role in this is not to make a decision. The decisions are made by the Massachusetts Architectural Access Board. We have advisory opinions. Sometimes they listen and sometimes they don't. We have had very strict serious concerns about the accessibility of things before that were approved by them. So I think, you know, the question of justice is a good question. It doesn't belong here. And if the other venue, you know, we have to deal with the question that has come before us. We don't know anything about the accessibility needs or the accessibility work that was done at the other venue at all. It never came to us for approval because they didn't ask for any variances. This is a request for a variance that was suggested by someone from the Massachusetts office on disability. Mr. Dugan, we know he has come to our meetings and he is the representative of the disability community. So in a way, I'm very glad that you brought the complaint because it does ask them to get a variance. And it does, I mean, he asked them to get two variances. And I think that is the way to go about it. But the justice issue is beyond our purview. We don't know a thing about the other venue unless we happen to know personally, but it's never come to us. So I think, thank you for bringing the point and frankly, thank you for bringing the question of the variance because someone from the state did think they need a variance and they have applied for one. And our job is to decide whether the recommendation that they are making is something that we can support for people with disabilities to be able to use the facility. That's all we are charged with and we don't have final decision-making. So is there any more discussion about- We have one other hand raised for public comments. That's all right, I'll bring that person in now. Let's see, yeah, let me go back. Okay, they should be coming in. When you come in, could you identify yourself, please? Can people hear me? Yes. Awesome. Three minutes. So first of all, my name is Pat Ananibako and I wanna thank members of DAAC for your time, serving on the committee. I'm here to represent my group, Black Business Association of Amist Area. And I am urging you not to support the variance application that Drake has submitted to the state. The reason being that Hazel, that is run by two Black men, were not given the opportunity or given the information. They too had small space. I will urge you to please reach out to Hazel before you make your decision. Do not vote today. Your vote of years will send a very strong message to Black home businesses in our town. Should do the right thing by requiring that Drake should have a permanent ramp. Disability is a justice issue. Racism is a justice issue. And I can go on and on. So the community is watching you. Your action today, what you're going to vote on, I urge you to please do your diligent work before you vote. There is no rush on this. Drake has one year to have put in the variance. If you're waiting for the diligent work of a community member Vera, we won't be here today discussing this. Please do the right thing. Black lives matter in our town. If we're talking about equity, inclusion and diversity, this is an example of that. Drake received $300,000 of upper fund to renovate and for operating expenses of their business. So the public has right to give input of that business. If it's a private business, then don't collect money from tax dollars, period. That's all I have to say. And I want to echo everything that Vera has said. Please do not vote yes. You will be driving black-owned businesses out of our town. If Hazel doesn't get upper fund just like Drake, they will no longer be in existence in our town. Is that what we want? I used to run a restaurant in Amherst and I know I experienced racism during permitting process. No surprise why businesses are thriving in hardly. I own some businesses in hardly. Do the right thing. I thank you so much for listening. Thank you. Thank you for your comment. Does anyone on the committee have anything further about the requests and about Marty's motion? Myra, this is Ian. Go ahead. I was just going to say, so this is my second meeting on the committee and I appreciate the presentation earlier and I hadn't been aware of the reason for the call for the call to the state for the variants. But I did just want to say in terms of what you had said earlier about justice not being an issue for this committee. I think the phrase disability justice comes in particular from black and people of color activists working for disability justice. And so when we consider the role of disability advisory, disability access advisory, there's both like the permitting process but then also the justice concept around it. And so I guess I would put in a motion just to maybe postpone at least for a month so that we can do our due diligence and learn more about the background to this, to what we've just heard about today. So public comments. All I can say, we're not meeting in July. We're going to Northampton. So it would have to be August that you were proposing. I just want to make that clear. And I also want to point out that when I looked at the timeframe for response, it's generally within a two week period. So that's one reason why we tried very hard to get the variants onto this agenda and why I think the DAAC has missed some responses in the past, the AAB gives each of the respondents two weeks to respond. So if no vote is taken today, that's you will, you can still respond but they may have already gone ahead with their decision-making process. Thank you, Pamela. Does anyone on the committee have any additional comments to make? Myra, could I make two comments please? Yeah, sure. Just addressing a couple of the points that were made. When we applied for our building permit, Mr. Mora, the building commissioner did not require a variance. He didn't feel a variance was necessary. If he had, we would have applied for a variance at that time. It only came up because of the complaint. And so we have filed a variance and that's what we're doing now but that's why we didn't apply originally. Right. And the second point is that this stage is not a public space. It's not a space that anyone can just go up on at any point in time. If this were a restaurant and we had a 16-inch platform, we'd have to have a permanent ramp that was there all the time because all tables need to be accessible. So it's not a public space. And that's really the difference between the requirement for other facilities that require ramps for stages or platforms. May I also add something? Go ahead, Gario. The complaint against the Drake on this also made compliance to the Human Rights Commission. There was the 10-page plus addendum report released earlier this week, I'm sorry, last week, that found absolutely no in propriety of the town of Amherst, BID, the Downtown Amherst Foundation or the Drake in terms of being accused of racial inequality. Rob Mora as building inspector stands by his original and continued designation that this ramp was completely accessible to the stage for its purposes. And we are seeking the variance because of the complaint and because we want to do the right thing. The DEI department of the town of Amherst, two members who are on this particular panel or on this, you know, the Zoom wrote the report. I believe it is a public report and I think it's important for people if you are going to hold on this to read the report because they have found no negative impacts from our organizations nor the town of Amherst on this particular subject about Hazel's Kitchen and the Drake. That's all. Okay. Mayra. Thank you. Sarah. I also, I believe very strongly in fairness. And however, we never got a variance request from the other business. You know, I don't personally know which is owned by black people or just white people or Hispanics. You know, so I, those are behind everything else but looking at the site and the review of this portable ramp, I thought that was a very good solution but I don't know what triggered the other business not to file for variance for their own business. So in a way I look at it is it is beyond our decision as a DAAC committee which is just supposed to look at the variance request if we think that is doable. Yes, we support that. But we don't know and we don't know what kind of grants Drake got and the other business didn't get. We have no idea. I have no idea where they were turned back and where they applied and they were refused to get the grants. So in a way I feel like this is beyond our scope of decisions. Thank you. I'm sorry, are there any additional comments? No. Well, there's a motion made by Marty seconded by Elise which pertains to this particular request that has only to do with this ramp in this facility. It doesn't have anything to do with anything else. And we don't, we have not, our purview is to determine whether or not this is a reasonable variance for people with mobility impairments to have access to the stage. That's the only, that's the only authority that we have. And as I said before, it isn't authority, it's just advisory. So are we ready to vote? Yes, no, ready to vote? I just want to make, I just, this is Tori and I want to make one comment and I do, I understand we're only supposed to look at the variance, but I also want to let you know that I do also feel uncomfortable, but I'm looking at the fact that we're just supposed to look at the variance itself and not what happened with the other business because we didn't know we weren't, well, it's not that we weren't aware, but we're only supposed to look at the variance. And, but I, but it does make me feel uncomfortable and I was going to say that I want to abstain from voting and I might still say that, that's the way I'm feeling. Okay. I'm going to call the vote if there are no more comments. All those in favor of approving the audience, the variance, we'll just do it with a roll call. Elise, I think you're muted. Can you come back to me? Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, Marty. I say approved. I'm uncomfortable with it too, but I think given the facts in the way they're presented, that I approve. Sarah? I approve too. Okay, so Ian? Abstain. You abstain. Okay, Elise, I guess we're, oh, Tori, you're abstaining? I'm going to abstain. Okay, Elise? Yeah, I'm not really comfortable either, but I'm going to approve it. Okay, so it's up to me. What I think is that anytime there's a question of an imbalance of justice, we should all be uncomfortable. The question is, does that have anything to do with this particular request? And whether or not the town funded it and didn't fund anyone else has nothing to do with us. Whether or not the other group was told that they needed to have a variance, that they needed to do something permanent. I don't know what they were told they needed to do, but they were told, we never heard about that business or about any kind of accommodation that they wanted. And I suppose if the building inspector doesn't approve of what you want to do, you are allowed to apply for a variance. That's the whole purpose of the law. So I think variances are granted and not granted by the Massachusetts Architectural Access Board when people request them, not when they don't know anything about what's going on that they don't know about. So I feel like it is our job to decide whether or not the Drake can, that we would support the Drake allowing performers to use the facility the way that they have designed it. I think that is really what our job is. And anything bigger than that should concern all of us to the extent that we are concerned. But I have not read the DEI opinion, but if there was an investigation and if there is a DEI opinion and if we are told that the Drake didn't do anything wrong that doesn't even have any impact on us. The impact that what the Drake is asking for is can they continue to allow access to their stage through the temporary ramp for purposes of performers using the stage if they are not able to get to the stage by just climbing up onto it without a ramp. And the other issues are dealt with by other groups and we should all be uncomfortable whenever there are concerns about inequity, but this isn't a concern about inequity. This is a concern about, while it is a concern about inequity because if they aren't allowed to use the ramp, then people, I guess they would have to build a permanent ramp and I guess that, undue hardship is part of the ADA. I mean, that's part of the ADA. And when it came to the Chamber of Commerce entrance, we could not, no one on this committee could figure out a way for that entrance to be made accessible. It was gonna interfere with adjacent businesses and other things like that. Some things can't be made accessible, but sometimes the business concern is something that you have to think about. Undue hardship is definitely in the ADA. There are many buildings all over the place that cannot be made accessible and can't even renovate because they can't be made accessible. So I'm glad that we have a business that's trying to be accessible. Anyway, we have, I'm gonna vote yes. I'm sorry to flip flop, but I'm gonna change my vote to a yes. Sorry to flip flop. No, it's fine. You can do that. It's not been recorded. Okay, so we have one abstention and we have one, two, three, four, five. Yes, is that correct, Pamela? No, we have two abstentions. No, I changed mine. No, I thought we had Ian and- Ian and Elise abstained. Yeah. Okay. No, I'm gonna change it to a yes. I'm sorry, you can, if that's too much trouble, then I'll still- No, it's no trouble. Yeah, it's your decision. We didn't make a point of vote. Yeah. All right. Yeah, no, I mean, I am uncomfortable, but I see both sides of it and I do feel like I need to say yes on this, good points were brought up. Okay. Right. So if nobody else is gonna change their vote, then we have a vote. One more chance to change your vote, anyone? But it appears to me that we have five yeses and one abstention. Marty has her hand up. Yeah, Marty, go on. Yeah. I just wanna make a clarification on my vote and also it may help. Um, we know exactly how the Drake is used and they have accommodated this through their operations by making sure that the ramp is up whenever there's public performances where the public will be on the stage. And when they're not, then they don't put the ramp up. I think one thing that was missing from the presentation today is we don't know how, at least I don't know how the space at Hazel's is used. I don't know what the purpose of the stage was for. And it's all about the operation. If it's always an open operation, if there were always gonna be people on the stage, then the Drake would need a permanent ramp. So I just wanna clarify that little thing because intent is a, and how you use a space often defines the code requirements beside it. I don't know whether that makes sense. John, I think knows what I'm talking about. Yeah, no, I know what you're talking about too. Yeah, I know too. And so I just wanna point out to the people from the other people that aren't on the committee, Marty is an architect. Marty has written many of these requests for variances in her day. She is now retired, but she is very aware of the law and very aware of the nuances in the law for which we are grateful every meeting. So I think we had a vote and we're gonna have to move on because we're already over time for what we need to do. And we have one other thing to discuss that has to do with accessibility. But before we do that, I wanna thank the people from the community who came, you're welcome to stay for the rest of the meeting. We need to say goodbye to Tori. And of course at a meeting where she says so much that's incredibly invaluable. It makes it much harder to say goodbye to Tori. Tori is a person who has contributed a lot to this committee and who doesn't make a lot of noise. Whenever Tori speaks, you have to listen because she doesn't speak that often but she always speaks from a perspective of knowledge and sensitivity. And I'm very sorry to see her go. And I hope that the next time we have an opportunity for you to get back on that you will because I think the loss of Tori is big for us. So I don't know if anybody else wants to make a comment but if not, thank you, Tori. We have a virtual cupcake, you'll have to imagine it. Thank you so much, Brian. Anyway, okay. So the next thing about the Jones Library, they were here in- We'll say goodbye and thank you very much. I'm sorry. Oh, thank you, John. I'm sorry. Thank you. Appreciate your time today. Thank you, Tori. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. And thank you Gabrielle if she left. I don't know if she did. No, she's here. I'm here. Thank you. Okay, thank you. So we have a Jones Library question has come up. It was, in the last few weeks, they started to do the interior design on the second floor. And remember when we had them in April, they were talking about the ramp and we asked cost kinds of questions. It seemed a little bit like we weren't sure how the ramp was going to be demarcated and all that. And it turns out that they tried to figure out how to make the ramp, which had to be 28 feet long because of a 28 inch differential in the height between the old library level and the new library level. And to make a 28 foot ramp, they were gonna have to take out over 200 square feet of space. And when they did that, they weren't gonna be able to have enough room for people to go to the reference desk, sit at the reference desk and also have the public seating area that they told us they were going to have. So they came to us and they said, you know, do we really need to have this ramp because at the head of the ramp or at the foot, I don't remember which, there is an elevator that's gonna be able to go from one level to the other. So that 28 inches will be taken care of through the elevator, which is in the same location as the ramp. And we talked, Marty and Pamela wrote to Marty and me, primarily Marty because she's the one who knows. And we decided, Marty said this is not an ADA issue that requires variance because there isn't anything that they're doing that doesn't comply with the ADA. They have an elevator in the same location that will achieve the same thing as the ramp. So she said there is no, we don't have anything to say here. This is completely in accordance with the law. Marty, do you wanna add anything to that? No, I think you've, I would add the fact that we were talking about the second floor. I'd have a different feeling about it if this was the entry floor, but because it's the second floor, the likelihood of someone going from the second floor on one side of the building to the second floor on the, this is, we're talking about between the new building and the old building. Now on the second floor in the old building is the Amherst room and there's a reading room. So the frequency of people going from one of those floors to the other is not all that likely. I mean, it's not gonna be real busy as it would be if you were coming from the entry way and then going up. That's, because you're likely, if you're gonna go up to the old building, in the old building, you're gonna go in the main level and go directly up to the, to that floor. So, I mean, if, again, if it was in a, if there was a lot going on on both sides of that, of that floor, I feel a lot different because there's not a lot of call for communication between those two levels. I think it's an appropriate use of an elevator and it does meet ADA and 521 CMR. So that's why we didn't bring it here because we don't have any, anything to say about it really because they don't need even to apply for variants. They were just trying to be as, well, I can't even say as accessible because they are accessible. The elevator is gonna achieve the goal but they were trying to have an alternate way to achieve the goal with a ramp and they couldn't do it without making the library use not so good and there's no point in having a library if you can't go to the reference desk and ask your questions. So there's any, I mean, we don't have anything to say about it. We just wanted to let you know about it. Does that make sense? Yes. Thank you for letting us know about it but it all makes sense. Okay. So you are gonna be able to access everything in the library with an elevator and if you can walk, you can access the 28 inch differential by a little bit of three steps or four steps. And if you're in a wheelchair of the 28 inch differential, you'll have to do by an elevator which is at the location that the ramp would have been. And I think when you're, I guess you're putting old buildings together with new, I don't know anything about why there had to be a 28 inch differential but I'm gonna trust that architects know that. I don't know. It's floor to ceiling night and one of the floors needs to be deeper than it is. Okay. Yeah. It's common. Okay. So that's the story with the library. And the other thing was, did we have anything to say about the outside? I don't know if we finished that conversation. I thought we did but I wanted to make it possible for people to speak to that. If you don't, if you want to- The one question that I did not ask but I believe the back where they're gonna have seating in the back, I believe that the material they're using was concrete or something. I can't remember Marty but I believe it was all up to code. Yes. They had some pull under tables. They had some tables that had extensions. Right. My concern is what Marty brought up. I'm sorry, Myra brought up is that it's the- because it doesn't get much sun, it'll be slippery. So hopefully they will take care of it. I mean, probably won't be sitting out there in the winter anyway, but chances. I mean, who knows? Some people do but hopefully they'll take care of it. Yeah, the walkway in the back is definitely a concern because it gets no sun and it's really, I don't know whose job it is to clear it. If it's the town, if it's the library staff, I don't know if it's any of that. It would be really nice if they could afford to put some electricity under it but that's a pipe dream. So I don't know who's job it is to keep it cleared but that is not anything again that we can have any control over. That's operations and operations have to, they have to make sure that they are using their staff to make sure that everybody can get in safely. Yeah. Okay. So we have, I think we're gonna have to postpone the whole discussion of becoming a commission and it would be better to do it in the fall anyway. I think because we have to go to the town council about it. Tori, do you have any parting remarks on the subject? Oh, I'm sorry, becoming a commission? Yeah. Since we can't ask you any other time. I think it would be good to become a commission. Yeah, it gives us more, it would give you more, more strength, more, more, not strength, just... Recognition. Yeah, recognition. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's a good word. Okay, takes the village. Okay. All right, we have two sets of minutes, April and May. Can we have a motion about the minutes approval? Move to accept. Okay, how about a second? I'll second. Thank you, your last... Oh, no, you're gonna get to vote. Does anybody have any corrections or additions to the minutes for either? No. No, okay. Thanks to Pamela for doing those. Absolutely, thank you. It's a job I would never want. Okay, so Ian, how do you vote on the minutes? I guess I'll abstain for the April one, because I wasn't there, so I don't know, but I approve the May minutes. Okay, great. Tori? I can't remember if I was there in April, actually. I believe I was, so I can't remember. I think you weren't here in March. Did you have two presentations from the Jones Library people? I did, there was... Yeah, so you were here. There was a fire alarm at some point, I just... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you were here. Okay, I forgot about that. So I will approve. All right, Tori. Sarin? I approve. Elise? Approved. Marty? I approve. Okay, and I approve as well. So we have the minutes approved, five to one for April, a five to one extension, I can't speak, for April and six for May. Okay, so next month, we are supposed to be going to Northampton on the 12th. Yes. And we have to arrange that. Can we arrange that through email closer to the day? Yeah. So Marty agreed to drive some people. Sarin, you will need to take a van. Is that correct? Or are you gonna drive? I mean, I have a van, but I cannot drive anymore. It's a different van. So I have to find somebody who can drive me and some others. But not a PBTA? Well, it is a Toyota van, but it does not have hand controls anymore. Wait, say that again. It is a Toyota minivan. Yeah. The only thing is it has a ramp and everything and tie downs, but it does not allow me to drive it. Because it doesn't have hand controls. That's right. They broke them. So I have to find somebody who could drive me there. What I'm saying is what about the PBTA paratransit? I can't request a service that way too. You can or cannot? Yeah, I can. I can. Okay. I mean... Seren, I just wanted to... This is Tori. I have a comment and I don't know if the van that the senior center was getting is up and running yet, but you could check with the senior center. Maybe that may be... Go for it, dear. Pamela, do you know about that van? The van is up and running. They have limited services, but it's worth the phone call to Haley to determine if they could do it, but it is up and running. Especially if it's a thing to the North Hampton senior center. Right. Yeah. That would be... And then we can all go and have fun in the van. All right. So that's something we have to work out. Yeah, you can get there on your own. Yes. Okay. So Elise and I would need transportation from Marty. That's three and Ian is four. With a guide dog. Yes. Guide dogs allowed. Don't worry. Okay. And then there's Cody, we don't know. So we... I think he said he could get there. Isn't that what he said? At the last meeting, he did say that he could get there. Yeah, I think he did say that. Okay. So what I'll do and I'll try to get more information and contact you all by email just with information. So it's not gonna be anything about substance. It'll just be, this is what we're all gonna... We have to be there at three o'clock or two o'clock or whatever time. And this is what they're planning. Okay. Great. Okay. Thank you all so much. Before you adjourn. Yes. So I did have an update on the pavilion at Mill River. So, which is that there's a possibility that work will begin this summer. And if that's the case, although you're not scheduled to meet in July, there might be a need for a special meeting. To bring those plans before you, but those details haven't been ironed out yet. So I'm just giving for your forewarned. We had once agreed that we would do that in order to be able to have whatever our voice is worth, with the AAB, right? So we might have to do that. Pamela, thank you for telling us this. July, of course, is one of the tough months to arrange an impromptu meeting very quickly. We will have another member in July. I believe James Coordinaire will be on the committee beginning in July. I believe that's the letter he received from Paul, right? I believe that's correct, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So he'll be with us. Yeah, we have to contact him. So it's funny, because we have one person leaving and one person coming first meeting someplace we don't even meet in a way we don't even meet. But, okay, so do we have a motion to adjourn? Wait, sorry, Myra, before the motion to adjourn, can I just make a brief announcement to put on people's names? Oh yeah, please do. A friend and colleague of mine is co-facilitating a workshop on June 28th. It's called Labor and Disability Justice Towards Solidarity. And just a brief description of it. Join us for Labor and Disability Justice Towards Solidarity. People's Hub Circle Connecting Movement Activists from Disability and Worker slash Labor Justice Communities and those already organizing at the intersections. The increased labor organizing across a range of sectors warehouse workers, baristas, non-profit staff, higher ed, faculty, et cetera has brought implications for all movements including disability justice. And I can send out a further description of. Yeah, that would be great. Please do. If you send. That's June 28th, 7 to 9 Eastern time. Where is it going to be now? Oh, sorry, it's virtual. Okay, so yeah, so yes, Ian, if you'll send me the information then I will send it out to everyone. And I did want to just say that Tori's always welcome back although not on the committee where, you know, your voice is always welcome. Right? You want to spend your lunch breaks with us, yeah. Thank you. And I just wanted to say that I have really enjoyed my time on the committee and I'm sorry to go but I have other responsibilities at work. And I do have a question if, so if someone from the community wanted to sit in the meeting then they can sit for the entire meeting. I just want to clarify that. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's the meeting is posted publicly on the town website and that will bring you and to the public side of the meeting as an attendee rather than as a participant. So yeah. I just wanted to confirm that. So yeah, okay. Thank you. And so since June 28th is still June, can I be included in that information? Yeah. That Ian has just shared. Absolutely it is, you're still a member in June. Yeah, yeah. I just want everybody to know I'm not going to be available. I'm going to be at String Quartet Camp that week. So I won't even be able to get near a Zoom in the middle of upstate New York. But I think that's a really great idea. So I'll be interested, Ian, if you want to report on it at our August meeting, that would be great. Sure. Okay, cool. I am in Myra. Yeah. See, it's thought comes to my mind. I was very touched by the community speakers in the previous Drake case. I wonder if it makes sense for us to invite the owner of that Hazel kitchen or whatever it was called and listen to what kind of challenges they face. But is it interfering with the town issues itself? I don't want to do that. But I just want to understand what these people were very legitimately talking about. Is there an issue? And they were discouraged for bringing a variance or they were not led to do it? Maybe we should read the report that Pamela's commission. I can send you the report with the attachments. Before we decide whether we, because we don't really belong in that discussion. No, not at all. Really, we have to keep our lanes really clear, I think. But one thing is if somebody has the role in front of them that they can do a request a variance if they're aware of that. Maybe they're not aware of that. You don't know. So that's why I just wanted to make sure that the- Well, if they have an architect doing work for them on a venue, the architect will know that they can request a variance. Otherwise they really can't be a certified architect. Am I right, Marty? Yeah. Are they required to have an architect? Yeah, for a public space, they are. They are, huh? Yeah. I would think so, yeah. Yeah. The town should have required an architectural stamp. It was. The documents are, I will, I'm scheduled to leave work early today, but I would be happy to send you all of those documents, the report, as well as all of the exhibits, which total about 50 pages, including the plans. That would be interesting. Longer than the investment. And I mean, I think it's the DEI commission, right? I don't know what the Civil Rights Commission. Right, so it's interesting wearing like two different hats. So in my other role as the Human Rights Director for the Human Rights Commission, the Human Rights Commission received the complaint from Ms. Cage about the alleged disparate treatment between the Drake and Hazel's Blue Lagoon with an allegation that the building commissioner and the Drake DAF had discriminated against them based on race. And as part of that investigation process, Jennifer and I met with all of the parties, that Jeff Dugan kindly came out from the Mass Office on Disability and reviewed both of the premises. The ramp that is at the Drake, is at Hazel's, is a ramp that would have been required by the state for that space. The venues, in my opinion, are very similar. I think the building commissioner felt that there was a distinction between the two of them, which is why he might have reached a different decision. Hazel's Blue Lagoon is both a restaurant and a nightclub or an evening venue. The Drake is primarily an evening venue, concerts, public space. In my mind, there's not a huge difference between the two. I do think, and I say this reluctantly because the architect who worked with Hazel's, not here to defend herself, I do think that there was a difference in the work or the recommendations that were made between the two businesses. So when you look at the plans, you can see very detailed plans. And I think the architect, probably at the request of the owner of the Drake, tried to create a creative solution to a problem that they identified. I'm not sure that that occurred at Hazel's. And as a result, Hazel's was told to comply with the state law, which they did. So when Jeff Dugan reviewed the ramp, he saw that it was a ramp that was fully in compliance with the law that would be required by the state. And so that's a little bit of a background, but I'm happy to send you all of those documents. Just for educational purposes, I'd like to understand how the building commissioner came up with that decision. Thank you. It's, yeah. I mean, racial disparity in treatment is real. Yeah, absolutely. And the fact that the town, I don't know if the town did anything wrong. And maybe, it's like when you don't have a good lawyer, you get more trouble than if you do have a good lawyer. And I don't know who their architect was. I don't know anything about it, but if there was a possibility that a variance could have been applied for and it wasn't, that isn't the town's fault. And so is that essentially the conclusion you came to? So, I mean, the conclusion that I came to is that the two businesses had very different experiences going through the permitting process. I mean, it really is very much night and day. And my assessment is that, in part it's due to the backers behind the drake having a long-term relationship with the town, a lot of experience in doing this type of work. And so, as Jennifer says, like when a packet is presented from those individuals, it is packed up like a nice gift with a bow on top of it where other individuals may have struggled. And I think that there are some things that the town might do in the future to make things easier for businesses coming into the community. I mean, permitting is very difficult and it's very complex. And if there are, I think the owner of Hazel's felt that at each juncture there was a question about something that he was doing or not doing and he's hearing it from multiple voices because we don't necessarily have a mechanism where all of the inspectors would be there on one day and give you all of the information. So you might hear from health one day, you might hear from gas and electric to nest. I'm just making this up as an example. And so that can be very frustrating if you're new to a community and new to their processes. If you've been in the community for a while and you're an established business owner and you know the process from A to Z, it's very easy for you to package your project in a way that gets it through the process very easily. So I mean, it is definitely true that they had very different experiences and but it was difficult to come to the conclusion that there had been specific wrongdoing by any of the parties. And it's just very difficult because for, although there were allegations of discrimination, there were also information that showed that Gabrielle Gould had assisted this business by helping them complete some of the forms and doing some of the work to help them get established. And the same was true of the building commissioner. There was evidence that they had approved a temporary occupancy. So the business could open while they were awaiting repairs of certain things. So when you have sort of that, both, you know, mix of good and bad, it's hard, at least it was difficult for me to say definitively, this was strictly done because of racial bias. I have a question, Pamela. Do they use that, I've not been in Hazel's. Does Hazel use that stage as an eating area when they don't have events? So it's unclear because, and Jennifer might be able to weigh in, I think at one point that stage area, and it's very teeny tiny, it's a small little stage, at one point it was described as a VIP sitting area that would be open to the public. And if it were a VIP sitting area, then that would require a ramp as opposed to only, because in the space, and the DJ booth is off, well, off to one side, and then there's another raised platform where there could, and I'm trying to recall, there might, I think there might be more than one area on like seating area in that raised platform. Jennifer, can you remember? Oh, we don't have to, this exactly is a great example of how nuanced the code is because it's really about how you control that space. So the other thing is the DJ space needed to be accessible too. Yeah. Pamela, before I know we need to close, can I have you for just a minute after everyone else leaves? Sure. Thanks. Okay, so we need a motion to adjourn. A motion to adjourn. Need a second. Okay, Elise? Yeah. Sarin? Yes. Tori? Yes, and goodbye, everybody. Goodbye. Bye, Tori. Bye. Bye. Thank you, Lynn. Yes. And Marty? Yes. And me? Yes. So yeah, this was a tough meeting. There's a lot of stuff. I mean, but it, the question really wasn't our purview. Anyway, okay, I'll get to you all next month, about next month. Okay. All right. Thank you. Hang in there, Myra. Thank you for your tough work there, Pamela. Yeah. Okay. All right. I got it. All right. We all have to leave. And I'm looking for the leave. There it is. Okay. Bye. Bye. Pamela, can you check the Zoom email that you have for me? Yeah. Because I'm not getting any Zoom notifications. Okay, let me. And that's why I've had so much trouble getting in. All right. I am going to. I think there might be a typo in my email. Yeah. So let me, I'm going to look for a second. Because I'm going, you're getting the email messages from me, right though? I'm getting your email messages, but I just don't get the Zoom invitation. Okay. And I get it from, I have another state meeting that I have. And I get those all the time. Okay. Yeah, there probably is. I'm going to go to my webinars and look at this and go to the list. Scroll down, save. Go down. Y-T-R-A-M Smith at gmail.com. Yeah, that's it. But I don't get them. Huh? Well, you know, this last time, Ian and Elise both had trouble with their Zoom, and I actually re-sent their, I had Zoom re-send their email. Their invite. Would you re-sent mine too? And you still didn't get the re-send? I didn't get it. No. Okay. Yeah. All right. I will double. That's why I was saying, let's check the. Yeah. Because I did not get it. All right. I will double check again. Okay. Thank you. All right. Okay. Take care. This was a tough one. All right. Take care. Bye-bye.