 Good morning everybody. My name is Joy Mochache. Back to why in the morning this is girls talk and Actually, this is Wednesday meaning it is Queens Wednesday That means that we celebrate ladies and all things to do with ladies in this particular segment even the topics We talk about or mostly about girls and everything. So actually today We're going to be talking about something very interesting something that touches our culture and our tradition to the very very core And that is dowry and before I go any further Let me say our social media handles where you can tell us your views because in this particular segment We'd love to hear what you say we need to hear what you're thinking and we love love love love to hear What you want to chip into this discussion? So you can find us on Facebook that is why 254 channel you can find us on Instagram Why 254 underscore channel and you can find us on Twitter at why 254 channel you can find me Joy underscore Mochache and as I introduce our guests the lady to my right this pretty pretty lady Miss at the Ambo Caribou sana. Thank you. Yes, and we're moving on as we go down the line our next guest is called Favorite or ghetto Favorite or ghetto Caribou sana. We also have Betty Malakuen. Yeah, Caribou sana. Thank you Yeah, welcome, and we have mr. Simba there at the end. I like that name I like that. It's also in the shutter Caribou nissana So Nora the Ambo. Yes. Yes. Let me start with you before we delve into deep What are your thoughts on dowry in a general sense? What's the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word dowry? Okay, um dowry it's like When you hear ladies getting married and the man is going like to pay dowry for them to get married That means it's like the guy is going back home to appreciate the parents like for bringing up the beautiful lady That are going to spend the rest of your life with it's not like your you are you are buying the lady In exchange of the dowry. No, it's like appreciating the parents and paying back for the good work They have done to bring up the lady that you want to marry. Okay, so I saw how about you favorite your idea of the dowry Okay, personally when I Okay, when I see the word dowry, I think of Parents getting money or maybe in some cultures cows or such things to From a man to take for their daughter I mean, it's like exchanging their daughter for material things. That's exactly what I see when I see dowry Yeah, that's okay exchanging your daughter for material things. Yes. Wow. That's serious miss Malakwin When I hear about dowry I think about payment There is a form of payment which a man pays to the girls family or the girl pays to the man's family According to different ethnic groups. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That's true. And our man the only man on set Yeah, yeah, how do you what's the first thing that pops to mind when you hear dowry when I hear dowry the first thing? Which comes into my mind is a it's an African way of appreciation Like the man appreciates the girl by the parents. Yeah, that's what's to me. It's dowry. That's what it is to use Okay, now let's go into this discussion because for me I feel it's going to be a bit controversial because I had someone saying it's something to exchange a girl with material and I'm hearing it's just a form of appreciation And actually in this country dowry is just seen as a form of appreciation when you go to find a girl And you want to marry her the first thing you're going to do is to give the man's family something Um, I guess they call it like a token something that celebrates the union that says thank you very much for bringing her up as Nora said And yeah, thank you for bringing her up and now I'm going to take it from here. So here's a little something for that But you know sometimes dowry doesn't exactly go the way we have planned There's some people who use dowry in a very negative way and when I say negative, I mean in the worst way possible let's connect this with Let's go back to the days of slavery What is a slave exactly? You know, how did someone become a slave? The first thing that happens is you capture this person or sometimes they're traded or bought And when we think of that it's basically buying a human life That's what slave trade is or that's what a slave is a human life that has been bought and no longer Belongs to them anymore now they belong to their master fully and completely And there are people who actually equate the payment of dowry to that That it's like treating a woman like a slave because what initially happens is I give you money And you give me your girl And people look at that especially in the west. They're like, why would you want your daughter to be sold? How can you agree because they still think that is a form? It's a purchase. It's a business It's a business purchase that has happened You have bought a human being and you've brought them home And sometimes here in kenya the worst things happen You get a couple where maybe the man is Very egoistic and he has this thought that as a man, I'm the one that needs to lead this house as a man No one can come above me and since I have bought you as a wife. I've given such and such number of cows and goats That means that you must do what I tell you when I tell you and how I tell you And it reaches a point where a lady becomes mistreated etc What are your thoughts about that anybody that has something to say? Um, let me say this Uh People misunderstand the word dowry as you say it. Yes. Um You might find a man. He's marrying a beautiful woman Yeah When the lady was at from her parents house. He was she was being treated well She was brought up brought up well until now she found this man and she said this is the guy I want to spend the rest of my life with and then when she goes there the man started mistreating her to an extent The lady is not allowed to go back home and even see the parents like We have such cases when The lady tried to have a conversation To have a conversation with the husband like tomorrow Me and the kids we want to go back home so that you can see my parent the man becomes so aggressive sometimes even Beat the lady. Yeah, just because and the guy is like I married you I paid the dowry I paid everything your parents asked me to why do you still need to go there? I mean, those are my parents. I should see them. You married me out of love but not putting me as slave We are past that. Yeah. Yeah, we are past that exactly So when you have me as in fact, you should tell me babe, let me accompany you to the parents Let's go and see them. Yeah, it's nice. It feels good But not like if you marry me now you want me to be like you're much Yeah Now everything you said I'm like, yes. Yes. Yes boss. Yeah I don't have a say in that house and I'm your wife We we are in this together when you went to see my parents you agreed that you're going to take care of me and We'll be leaving the husband and wife and not like I'm moving on to the next view anyone can jump in all right Okay, I think This perspective of I mean the man pays the dowry and then takes you to his house And then starts to treat you like he has bought you. I mean you Okay, let's like in Kenya a married woman should be 18 and above So when a man takes maybe even if even if it's 2 million quino He takes at home 2 million shillings that doesn't mean yes, but I mean your parents has have taken care of few Since birth up to 18 years old. I mean they have taken they have used more than that 2 million shillings I went then a man tells you not to go see see your parents at home. It doesn't make sense totally. I mean 2 million shillings cannot I mean it cannot buy a life if you were to if let me ask you now that you said you gave a specific figure Let's say now that you're told you don't have a choice favorite You just have to go with this man and we're taking that dowry And then they say fine state a price Do you think that you can state a price or is your life too high to even state a price? I can't state a price that I mean my life has no price even 10 million. No It's my life. It has no price. I mean you can't I mean can you be bought for maybe even 5 million? No, your life has no price. It should be like, okay We're going there because of love Maybe if you're there at please appreciating your parents, they should okay. It's not like they're buying you They're not like they're not purchasing you like you become their item. You see You're going there because of love not because you're an item who has been bought from Uh, the parents. Okay. Yes. Okay picking from where she left I cannot state the price of my bride price, but my parents can Because when you talk about dowry, it's the man. Okay, it's a token of Appreciation of what your parents has done that the man is paying So okay, mostly the parents take part in this conversation and again about dowry Dowry should be put among should be put into the list of What is to be fought in the women's right because dowry like female genital mutilation Is used to okay is an is a is a thing Used in abusing women Because once a man pays for dowry, he owns you like a property Okay, like now in the contemporary world Mostly dowry is no longer paid by cows. It's mostly paid by money and like okay, mostly when it's like buying a thing Yeah, yeah, so the man fully owns you and treats you like a pawn Yeah, yeah, so would you state a price? I can't but my parents can you okay with your parents putting a price in your life Yeah, I'm okay because I'm sure they'll do it. What if they say 500 000 shillings? Won't you be heartbroken like mom daddy seriously? I'll be heartbroken, but I know my parents can't state Set a love bride price Let's hear from our only man the moment you asked her If if if the parent put like 500 000 on her head would she appreciate she said no, yeah, meaning that she values money She values money. She values money. She wants more money you know and You know, there's a difference between dowry. Yep and slave trade dowry is a mutual agreement And there are some girls who are burdened to their parents that they just want them to go And the moment I take you as my wife or my girl and I take you to my place Doesn't mean that I'm I'm taking you as a as a maid Whenever there's a problem between us, but how can I be sure? How can you be sure? You know in any relationship love or friendship there must be Blocks that will be blocking you you see Whenever there's a problem in your relationship, you don't need to be moving to your mom's house, you know You can solve the issue between the two of you And the moment I pay the dowry that meant that you're coming to me into my life The struggles and everything you'll be fighting not by not using the fist or anything Maybe by words or what? But we'll be solving the issues at home but by running That doesn't mean anything because even the bible it always said that It will reach a point where when a woman will leave the parents To go and become one with and become one This this should go to a like every girl the moment you're born The role is prepared to leave the house Yeah, but for the man the moment you're born You are chances of staying at home are very high That's where you'll find that for a man for a man Just just being at home are very but is in our culture in the sense that because for me have um Their friends that I know who their parents have said no You're not bouncing from this house until a man comes and asks for your hand in marriage. This is your place So it's usually the man that leaves the house Until her hand is asked for in marriage. I'm going to counter attack your your argument there You say that uh, yeah that uh until a man comes So that that goes to my first point Women will just have to leave and the moment you leave for another man Whenever problem comes in your marriage, you don't need to go to rush home Okay, the point is okay a problem comes any marriage Okay in any family there are problems But the point is when a man has paid dowry when a problem comes in and then you want to solve the man Okay, I I know of a situation on I know of a family whereby The man was like I paid your pride bright price. So what are you telling me you mine? I mean I paid your dowry so you mine So that's the perception that men who have paid dowry have On their wives So now that you said they can treat them the way they want Because they paid dowry. That's the excuse if it's the perception and the excuse I need to move on to the next question that connects with what you've said So then do you think that dowry paying dowry should be illegalized or banned Or made something that no we're not doing this anymore. It's against the law now It can't it can't be illegalized or legalized because when you talk about dowry, it's legal now When you talk about dowry, this is an African thing. It's just it just happened naturally Even if you're mad and you get a woman at some point you feel like no I need to go to their parents and we go to their parents. You can't just go empty handed Common sense will tell you I can even carry a bag of sugar that in some ways a dowry Though not presented formally Wait, where are you going with the bag of sugar? You see you're valuing what I'm bringing. You're not valuing the person No, you can't come to see my parents in the bag of sugar When you value what I'm bringing That's when the problem comes in Remember I've said when I'm coming you know right now as a young person when I come to your place I believe you're above 18. I'm above 18 and I come to your place. You can't expect me to come with a V8 No, you okay. Let me tell you something. There's something you don't understand here By the way, you've asked her about their price and she and she said no and then you are like you see she values money Let me tell you when you see me I have been under my parents house for so many years. They have taken me to school They have a look at and by the way men of these days Maybe stuck him when I'm came when I just saw my you see and you don't know even which school she study at You don't know the fees. You don't know the food. You don't know the pocket money But you when I lady ask you for like money twice your salon You are like Sina Pesa Sina Pesa and then you want me they let me tell you something for me The the dowry price it should be Six digits and above millions And it's not like you're buying me It's not like you're buying me with that money. You're trying to pay back. What does paying back means paying back Is appreciating what they have done of which if you're coming to marry me of which it's just a favor Because if I tell you pay my school fees since I was a kid until I graduated you can't Okay, so someone agrees with her. Let me read let me read a tweet someone agrees with her when it comes to the six digits I'm here. She says hi joy. I'm also called joy from marquette But or not me me lasima nearly pure dowry and it must be five million and above Because name is soma Any man who doesn't want that a kanyage frame? Thank you Miss kia. So it's the same sentiment. She this this other lady from marquette. She's read She has studied and she wants a diary of not less than five million You may figure your point that at least if you're going to buy me. I know my price What about you guys who whom we've studied No, what about it? You are a mad. I'm a woman, you know There's something which I'll say that when you want a girl who dresses well, you should buy her A dress or something. Yeah, so this should even go to those girls if you want a man who works find him a job No, no, no What a man can do a woman can do better Don't like don't don't flow without what a man can do a woman can do one thing You should know a man cannot stay without a woman in his life But a woman can a woman can there are so many singles mother There are so many people who don't even think about money, but many know why god created a man and a woman Tell me he didn't He didn't create them to to live their life Can I pause before we take a different direction? Actually, we had discussed this question. Is Dari the ultimate price of buying a girl and we all had split views about it We had You know ladies who believed that no, this is a specific price. I want can we please go to the next question In the meantime, I will be reading a tweet that has come in as well This one's from a man. Let's see whether he agrees with you Um, so uh, he says hi joy. I'm ken from rungai I'm broke, but I want to marry. I'm therefore looking for a lady who can help me pay her dowry Okay, you know, you know When you get a girl There's some procedures which need to be followed Are you going for the girl first of the dowry? Because if that's it, he knows he can't get the girl without dowry That's the tendency. It means that uh, we should just start a campaign and be like, let's first get the dowry and get the girl No, you can't do things opposite. You just have to get the girl and get the dowry But you see him. He knows that he's broke. He's broke So he knows that even if I get even if I get this girl even if how will I pay He should get the girl because you know, we're going to have sensors this year and the number of girls are Atroids the men so you should get the girl So when we come to the question of how much should be placed as dowry, our lady here said not less than six digits You said there's no price. Yanni, it can't be price for human's life And you said that you wanted your parents to decide. Yeah, you don't want to give a you don't want to give a figure I can't please do it and above two six digits and above two. I hope one woman is scared I hope you're listening start saving now if your plans to get married and then you could save Mazea then you could save So a quick question. So for those who said six digits and above Are you ready to be treated like trash because the man bought you six digits? You didn't you didn't buy me the dowry you paid was a token of appreciation for my parents for whatever hell They went through raising Exactly like when we say when I say personally like I want six digits and above Reason being is you know, I'll be in your house. I'll be cooking for you. I'll be washing your clothes I'll be ironing. I'll be preparing to you will a man will just come to the house raise his feet on the table Babe, I want hot water. I want this and this and this so when you're paying the money When you're paying my parents the money It's not like you are buying me because when you are buying me. I see these shoes. I love them I want to buy them. I'll give the person who is selling the shoes the money Because you've brought in your you've really stressed your point I need to know um, the next question actually should be reading do a girl's parents have control over her once dowry is paid Yes, they're my parents They they give birth to me They have control over me for the rest of my life. I mean for the rest of their life Okay, for this one I want to hear one one. How about you? They because they received me dowry. They can control me. They can control you. No No, they can't. Okay. And mr. D'ambo No, no, um, I believe it depends how they come in either either on a positive or negative Because if they're coming to break the marriage now, they're not allowed. They're not allowed So and the next one goes does dowry empower women? Do you think that dowry empowers women? I believe we love we've lost topics that are we've just now trying to empower everything now We're trying to use dowry to empower women How does that how does that change the economy? I don't think so It does not empower women because once you are being exchanged for money because that's what dowry is It creates inferiority In you mean they feel inferior and that they are treated as investment. Yeah, they don't feel it doesn't make you feel better about yourself Yeah, that's true. I agree with that point actually Like she has said it doesn't empower women it makes you feel like an item of the man who has married you It doesn't empower women. Yeah, I agree with that. Um, I think we are talking about the money side, right? Yeah, and what about the The other things but if you if you want, I mean if you're if you're so comfortable with the man giving six figures for you then Okay, I'll call dowry unnecessary evil Because it's good and bad because my parent can't just give me away So but don't they do that in the west and has it disturbed them? See they are surviving also It only happens on this continent most of the time and I think in India But okay, but for me like now and with my culture I don't think that okay, it's that okay It's okay for me to be given away without any exchange because whatever my parents went through in raising me And I'm going to the man's family and I'm leaving my family for the man So like my parents will be left to we'll be left with all without like I don't want to take care of them because I'll be Okay, as far as I can still go home and help them But my obligation mostly will be with my family and at times to help the man's family to help the man's family Okay, my name is Asana mr. Simba. I like to that um About about dowry I think Whenever I come to a woman's place Am I coming because of love or the dowry because you tell me are you coming for love or dowry? What if I love the girl and I don't have the dowry See, that's what this man was complaining about as well You want to marry but he doesn't have the dowry when I love the girl and I don't have the dowry. I'll just go for the girl Without the dowry then though the dowry, but how will the parents accept this? I'll go and present myself and say honestly. I love this girl And for now, I don't have the I don't have what you expect Let's say you're to let's say you're trying to take one of these ladies Who have said that they're educated and they want to be educated They want to further their studies even more and you've heard them asking for six figures No, mesquia that the parents have studied them well Okay, they've taken them to good schools and they're line-up ladies So then the parents will also say I kijana To mesamesha umsjana She has good manners. She has a good head on her and she has a good future and you have nothing How can we possibly give you you know give her to someone that has almost nothing? You said nothing in terms of money to take you know, I'll be like Let's assume I'm assuming that you this is the dowry what and I want to take maybe her I'll say honestly. I love the girl But for now, I don't have the money She's educated. I'm educated and this is what I can offer You see Because you can't force some people to just give out the money because when you force that guy to go and Get the money he'll over stress himself distress himself. That's maybe engaging in illegal stuff Just to get that money to get a girl whom we love. Okay