 Hello, and welcome to this special discussion on Asia's energy options coming to you from the World Economic Forum or the Summer Davos here in Dalian, China. This talk is brought to you by Adidang TV, broadcast globally via satellite and also available on the web at adidang.com. Today's talk will focus first on how things currently stand in Asia in terms of energy and the second half will focus on what lies ahead for us as a region in the future. So we have a distinguished panel featuring key energy players from the region and allow me now to introduce them to you. Starting with my immediate left, we have this Excellency, the Prime Minister of Mongolia, Saikan Bileg Chimad. And to his left, Chairman Prakash Hinduja of the Hinduja Group, a multinational corporation with interests in banking and oil, among others. To his left, we have Mr. Kim Dong-kwan, Managing Director of the Hanwha Group, a top 10 Korean conglomerate with a leading presence in solar panels. And last but certainly not least, Dean Bo Chan-lin of the Institute for Studies in Energy Policy, Shaman University of the People's Republic of China. So welcome to the talk, gentlemen, and thank you for joining us. Let's jump straight into the discussion. We just heard in the opening plenary session from Premier Li Kaixing reassuring everyone that China's economy, while it has slowed, is still very strong, not a source of risk but a source of strength. But there are some new figures and a new pace of growth that we have to get used to. So let me start by asking Dean Lin. What does this mean in terms of energy? I think from an economic perspective, 7% is still quite good actually. Even in the next half going down a bit, you know, even 6.5, it's still very good economic growth. But any sector does have some problems. It's going down so fast and so quickly as compared to GDP. Our relationship between GDP and primary energy normally at the peak is somewhere between 1 to 2.6. But last but first month of this year, GDP grows for 6 months of this year, GDP at 7%, but primary energy is less than 1%. Electricity, we have run continuously roughly about one to one relationship between GDP and electricity consumption growth. But this year again, GDP 7%, electricity roughly a little bit more than 1%, this first half, a little bit more than 1%. So it comes out so quickly that the energy company do not know how to respond to that. And it look at all indicators that the energy company are really in trouble at this moment. Dean Lin, let me just interrupt you there. But why the discrepancy now? Why has it changed from one to one to this great discrepancy now? I think the main problem is it comes from industrial sector, particularly heavy industry. These heavy industries consume most of the energy that increase the demand, et cetera. For major industry, heavy industry consume roughly 60% of the electricity in China. And when heavy industry respond to the economy, economy slowing down, what they do is to reduce production and they don't consume electricity. Even though they still can sell their inventory to support GDP, but the energy consumption is not there. So I believe that the main problem is really from industrial side. So associated with that is the price because very, very low energy demand at this moment lead to huge energy capacity over capacity at this moment. For in 2011, our electricity and our energy demand, our coal demand, all grow, all have a very good numbers. And therefore corresponding to that, we made a very good plan, very big plan for the energy moving forward. The result is that when we suddenly meet the energy demand going down very quickly, we are a huge surplus. The electricity right now, I think the coal fire side is roughly 20%, and coal represent 80% of electricity. So you can see that the electricity system is roughly 20%. So let me just jump in right there and ask the Prime Minister, Chimette, now. So Dean Lin just mentioned how electricity demand has gone down, has slowed dramatically. Obviously this is not good news for Mongolia as a prime exporter of coal to China. And of course, being your biggest customer in terms of coal, coal prices have gone down. What's the current situation like for you? Right now, good afternoon everybody, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for this opportunity, for what kind of forum and TV as well. And right now, this is good news for us because we import some of our energy demand from China and Russia as well. But right now, we are building at this underway four different power plant stations and also one big hydro plant, hydro station. And that's why after a couple of years, maybe two or three years, again, we are going to face the exactly same situation as China right now, overall capacity. And that's why we need to export our energy. That's why right now is good news, but after two years, it's going to be very bad news for us. And how are you preparing for that? Yes, and that's why the topic of this session is also going to talk about options. And that's why exactly I'm trying to address this issue. First of all, renewable energy. Mongolia has plenty of resources of this kind of energy. For example, we have started from 270 days to 300 days, honey days. And also 10% of this waste Mongolian territory is very good, excellent condition for wind energy and the installed capacity of over 1,100 gigabyte capacity. That's why this renewable sector is going to be one option. The other option is that Mongolia has plenty of billions of tons of coconut and also energy coal. And that's why we need to change. We need to reshift our policy. And that's why we're talking right now with China's government establishing big coal to gasification project. And big gasification pipeline is going to build from Mongolia to China also trying to import not coal, not energy, but gas. And this could be also another option. I'm sorry. Okay. Many options. Let me ask you now. China slowing down 7% or around 7% GDP growth seems to be the new norm that we have to accept. Is this the time for India now? Will India sort of overtake China as forecast by many as the main driver of the population and also energy growth as well? What do you foresee for India and what's happening right now in India? Well, I see that India has a great potentiality and the requirement of the energy which is very big. And I've been talking to many Chinese companies that how this is a opportunity time where you should come in India, bring the technology and manufacture in China where the demand of the power is so much over there that we are short of power and we need huge different, different technologies to come from all around the world. Now, there is a big rush from America, from Germany, from France, from China, from Korea, you know, from Italy. Everybody is entering into the country. But we are very much wondering that unless the manufacturing is not done in India, the solution of this energy requirement will not fulfill. Is manufacturing the only problem? I understand about a third of the population. Maybe 400 million people are still without electricity. No, 400 million are even electricity. 700 million people in the villages, you know, they are the one which are facing big problems. So how do you bring electricity to that? That's the reason we are trying to now see three different types of programs we have. We have a hydro, we have a windmills, we have a solar energy, we are going to go on a nuclear energy thermal. You know, now the coal, today our energy is all depending on coal based. The whole coal based is the main power. So we are trying to bring in to new type of energies into India where all the major companies, like if you have a Siemens, Siemens is there for more than 150 years. So in a similar manner, we have a big companies in the energy field who have done up to 45,000 megawatt. Mr. Hindujasar, I just want to hold on and go to Mr. Kim because obviously the Hanwa group leading presence in solar energy and also Korea, not a lot of natural resources hardly any, but major importer of energy and yet also an exporter of energy related technologies. And of course your company is one of them. Could you talk about where Korea stands and where you see the potential maybe? I mean, I think as it was well publicized, I think Korea has set a very ambitious target of carbon reduction. And I think Korea and government just released a very ambitious target of increasing the percentage of renewables to double digits within a decade or so. And I think especially because Korea, as you mentioned, is very resource constrained and we have been investing a lot into R&D. And I think especially our strength in semiconductors and display manufacturing has been transformed into a manufacturing know-how for solar panels as well. Well, so I think although the Korean market itself is still relatively small compared to China or India, I think throughout Asia, I think especially in China and India, we have a lot to contribute in terms of manufacturing innovation and also in bringing solutions. Maybe not only conventional solutions, but with micro grids and smart grids. I think there's a lot of opportunity to bypass a lot of infrastructure requirements, the power transmission requirements that are necessary to bring electricity to these remote villages in India. But I mean, as Premier Lee said, I mean, the Chinese economy is still probably robust, but the global economic recovery is slower than expected. And in such difficult times, isn't it true that most countries will go for the cheaper fuels? Will they not revert back to maybe coal, more oil? I mean, how is this going to affect our carbon footprint and the economy, the market? Well, not necessarily. If you look at the number for the first six months of the Chinese energy number, the coal dropped by 8.3%. So that's good news for everyone. China will be first time in roughly 20 to 30 years. The CO2 emission will be negative, not positive. Of course, I'm not saying that this is going to be P for CO2. We still commit to PCO2 at 2030. But I say that that judgment is not necessarily true. And mostly look at renewable energy for six months increased by 16%. So therefore, it really depends on how government guide the public and private sectors to more cleaner and also lower carbon development path. So obviously government policy is always very important in guiding the market and also the country towards cleaner sources. Tell us, with Mongolia, with coal being such a huge portion. I mean, you mentioned other options. But coal, obviously, right now is probably the most viable option. How do you foresee the future of coal? And what are you doing to sort of mitigate the risk? That's right. In one side, of course, there is the demand and also some pollution issues, ecological issues. And important to going in this direction. But on the other side also, we need to address the everyday's problem. And every government has this kind of mechanism. Right now, I'm just going to bring you one example. We just finalized a couple years ago our wind plant. And still the cost for households on wind energy, it's renewable energy, still higher than this traditional method. And that's why every government have to put certain amount in our budget to give subsidies towards these plants. And that's why, of course, technology is getting better. Some people is also arguing this revolutionizing and getting better. But still, there is plenty of job we have to do because they need to, competitive price they need to have. And in this regard, again, of course, this is the goal, this is the principle we need to follow. But right now also, we need some kind of traditional policy in this regard. And that's why I'm still thinking in next 20, maybe 30 years, the cold consumption, cold reliance, still will be there. And that's why, again, I just previously mentioned this, that changing this cold into gasification, changing this cold into liquid, benzene, diesel, other oil products, that's still keeping good balance during these two or three decades. Okay, so in Korea's case, we've had a government-led policy of green growth, of switching to more eco-footprint-friendly energy sources. How important were those policies and government support? Were they essential in implementing and also growing that business as well? I think it was important in kick-starting the cycle of innovation. But I think once that started, I think innovation and cost reduction in and itself has driven a lot of this cost reduction. And I think, so I see in places like India or even the United States, where we see parity of solar energy with coal or other sources. And I think recently, we just signed a PPA in the United States for about four cents per kilowatt hour for solar energy. And I think four cents is about as close to coal as we've seen with renewable sources. So I think once that government policy kind of stimulated that kind of innovation. But I think since then, the market dynamics have driven down the price. So government policies and subsidies obviously very important to kick-start the industry. Implementation is probably a different story and depending on which country, China obviously implemented quite well. India, do you see a problem in implementing government-led policy regarding energy? Is that a problem? Implementing policy, Mr. Induja? Well, you see, in India there has been a new reforms which has brought out by the new government by Prime Minister Modi and his energy minister, who is a very dynamic minister, Mr. Piyush. And he is trying to come up with the new reforms in coal. And the new reforms in organizing the whole structuring of the energy program in India, which is a big plan. And they are taking advice from different areas from the world. And they have been working on it very progressively. And there is a big plan going to be in 2020. They are planning to see how they could advance the renewable energies in a big way. Their target is to go in a renewable energy in a big way. And that is why our group, Induja Group, which is having a power project now in Hyderabad in Vaisagapatnam, which is a thermal coal-based plan, which we are going to inaugurate by next month, which will be a very big power project, coal-based plan. But our plan is to go to renewable energy in a big way because the new generation, my nephew, who just came back from Columbia University, is going to come up with renewable energy campaigns. Mr. Induja, I just want to go back to Mr. Lin for just your comments on what we've been discussing right now before we break and go to the future of our energy situation here in Asia. Mr. Lin, what have you been thinking about this discussion? This intensive implementation, is that correct? Sorry? Is that about implementation of the energy policy? Yes, yes. I think that the government is doing quite a good job in China. If you connect to your earlier comment, people normally choose a cheaper price, better quality. If you look at renewables, you're more expensive and your quality is not good. But if China can still manage substantial growth in wind and solar, that means the Chinese policy on the wind development is quite effective. How do you see it implementation in India? Mr. Induja didn't really answer my question. Mr. Induja had to answer that question. You see the point is that today in India, as I said, things are changing a lot. Things are moving because the Prime Minister, when he recently visited Mongolia, now never Prime Minister of India has ever been to Mongolia. And the Prime Minister is a witness, to say that the agreements had been signed. And now they are also planning to go to Africa, for example. You see, Africa also, they have a lot of coal. But they don't have the skill. So India is trying to see how they can go in African countries also. So you're saying until now maybe implementation has been slow, but things are changing, especially with Mr. Modi in power now, and things are showing change. Right. We had very fruitful discussions with Mr. Modi doing his state visit to Mongolia. And also we agreed to establish an investment fund together. And also solely based on infrastructure, especially in the energy sector. Because this is also a need for two countries, also engage with the win-win principles. Super. Well, we're going to talk more about the future of regional infrastructure cooperation in the region. But first, let's take a short look at this video. Global leaders will meet in Paris at the end of the year to make a promise to cut carbon dioxide emissions. The aim is to limit global warming to below two degrees Celsius. China, Japan and Korea have already filed their plans that show marked cuts in emissions with peaks by or before 2035. But will those goals be enough? Future changes toward more environment-friendly renewable energy sources will have to be made. Developed and developing countries are investing and greater cooperation and collaboration are called for. But with fossil fuels like oil and coal so cheap and change so expensive, old habits die hard. So Asia, of course, is forecast to be the main driver of demand for energy. Of course, that means more focus will be put on Asia to deliver that growth in a sustainable and a cleaner manner. Is it realistically possible, though, considering that we have this mix of developing and developed countries, of countries still striving to get electricity to its people, how realistic is that? Mr. Lai, maybe you can start us off. I think that it's quite difficult for different countries in terms of different development stages. Their view of the cost and the cost are quite different. But let's give everyone a better news. The Chinese emission of CO2 because of coal slowing down very quickly is really reduced substantially. What we're looking at is it becomes quite promising. The region I'm seeing there is that in the past, when Chinese coal growth at about roughly about 8%, something like that, many people are very frustrated because no matter what we do here, it's not going to compensate whatever the Chinese coal emission there. So with the Chinese coal coming down substantially, whatever we are discussing in terms of global targets, everything, I think it's going to become much more promising. Mr. Kim, how do you think Korea managed to balance economic growth and also sort of switch to cleaner energy sources? We managed to do this in a relatively short period of time. What do you think was the key? I think the Korean case is interesting in that I think we still have a very robust manufacturing sector yet we still managed to make that switch. And I think it was a confluence of factors including, I think the previous administration was very focused on green growth but we also employed a lot of nuclear energy as well. And I think this is a path that I think some economies might be able to imitate but others because we're relatively smaller compared to China or India. I think we were able to do that, make that transition much easier than others. Do you think that countries like Korea and India have maybe a responsibility to help out other countries in terms of acquiring the technology maybe needed to switch to a cleaner source of energy? Yeah, I think that's what we see already happening. I think because we've been able to, I think the energy market in the Asian region has become more and more integrated and I think especially because I think it's going to be impossible to just ask people to choose a more expensive source and hope for a large adoption. I think, so what's happening now I think with renewables is that we're trying to make renewables actually more economic than coal or oil and I think that's probably the only way we could actually solve, fundamentally solve these issues and I think in terms of both wind and solar and especially solar because I know the sector better, I think we're almost there or we're there in parts of the world especially in India or China where the construction cost is much lower and we're land is more available. I think we've seen parity with coal fire plant. Prime Minister, you mentioned that Mongolia, one of the major options is renewables wind and solar, you have the right conditions for that. So what is, what do you foresee of the major challenges maybe and also the opportunities in getting that sort of renewable energy up and running? And in terms of commitment, everything is fine because we have to comply with international standards and these policies and that's why we recently adopted our new energy law amendments to energy law and also new renewable energy law and also state policy on energy in terms of legal environment, it's getting better and moving to this direction. Again, the most difficult thing for any government and especially for the government of Mongolia is that how can we fast shift and also how can we do with the traditional resources of energy and how should we bring the new technology because comparing just five, six years ago, the traditional power plant station technology and right now they're proposing it's totally different picture and that's why we also have to think about that after two decades, maybe 2030 by this time also, the traditional method of energy resource also in terms of emission, in terms of pollution will be also in terms of standardization in totally different levels. How will you try to do that? And are you trying, I know that you're meeting with lots of world leaders, you're trying to attract investment. I previously mentioned that we are now working on four different power plant projects, one is dealing with French and Japanese companies, the other one, another two is dealing with Chinese and another one is also all these private companies is coming now and also in hydra energy plant dealing with China also and that's why all the new standards and technologies coming into this sector. Okay, Mr. Hinduja, I know that the Hinduja group is now also focusing more on renewables especially with the solar PV sector I believe and you see great potential for growth in India in the sector. As you mentioned before, many, many people without even basic electricity, how do you see this transition to this sort of right now more expensive technologically advanced form of electricity, will that go smoothly? Well you see as I told you that India needs a technology, there's no doubt about it. And in manufacturing, the capacity in India in manufacturing, we need a lot of partnerships, collaborations from different, different part of the world. And that is why today in general electric like GE, they have had a big base in India now. They are also going in a big way and to go in a big plan. I've been talking with Chinese friends of mine to see how we could bring in partnership because partnership is the growth in India. We don't have enough capacity to cope up with the requirement of India as for the energy requirements that are there. Renewable energy will take a long way to go. To replace coal into renewable energy is not in one day. Rome is not built in a day, you know. It will take years to... 20 years? No, I would say till 2020, you know it can 2022, it can go into it. But there are different, different programs which are going on in different, different states in India. So there is a huge energy programs, plans are going on. And with that program, we need a government is supporting in a big way and we are trying to see that how China can play a very important role with India because China's financial problem which everybody is facing, this is the time. China and India can work in a closed tire. So let me toss it back to Mr. Lin now. Solar power generated, expected to generate over 14% of global total electricity by 2040. Of course, China also has big goals for solar energy. What do you see as the challenges because of course not every country enjoys up to 300 days of sunny weather. What are the major challenges facing the solar power industry? Of course, the major challenge at this moment is the cost, it's still more expensive. And also that moving forward when the solar power reaches a certain proportion, it will be cost on the system. So the cost is still the major problem at this moment. But moving forward when the solar when reaches a certain proportion, the major optical will be the energy storage. If we don't have any storage, I don't believe that one and solar will go too far. Because when we reach a certain proportion and beyond, the system costs will be enormous. You really cannot stand it. So I would believe in the energy development, not only we need to focus on one and solar, the energy storage will need to be there. In my view, it's a central part of it. Okay. Well, Mr. Kim, you're in the industry of course of solar energy. How far are we along in terms of technology? Storage, is that really still a big issue? I think we've seen the issue of storage come up in areas where there's actually a lot of solar saturation. For instance, in Hawaii, I think almost 30% of households have solar panels now. And I think storage has become an issue. But I think at least for the next four or five years, I think most countries will not see that kind of rapid penetration as much as anything below 5%. I think the conventional grid can still handle. But I think eventually after 2020 and as we get past the double digit mark, I think which we will within 10 years, I think storage will become a big issue. But I think that research has been done on that issue. But I think because so far we've been focused on lithium ion batteries, which are more focused for electric cars. But I think grid level storage has different demands and different size and different cycles. So I think once people realize that there's money to be made and this is an actual need, I think the technology will accelerate much faster. But I think in terms of solar energy itself, solar panels itself, I think because of mass adoption, it was led by Europe, but now in China, I think the costs have come down very significantly. I want to switch track now and talk about regional energy infrastructure. One Belt, one Road has been mentioned as well. And even in his opening plenary speech, Premier Lin Lee mentioned also international manufacturing cooperation. And I was wondering how that would apply to the energy sector as well. So if any of you would like to just sort of jump in and with some comments on how you see that, the regional energy, yes, Prime Minister? For Mongolia, in terms of region, it's very understandable terminology for us. Because Mongolia, we need to focus solely on Northeast Asian region, including China, including Japan and Korea. Because Korea and Japan, as you said, in terms of natural resources. Because they need to address this issue and Mongolia has the answer. But they have the financial power, but also technology. And a good mix of this one, connecting with China. For example, now they're building up new high-voltage transmission lines. It's DC lines, it's MRI. And this is also one of the key. And also with Japanese government, you're also talking about also energy sector collaboration for a longer period of time, including not only these cotton calls, but also real earth element and also uranium. And this is certainly areas also we need to do. But it's more difficult for Mongolia because you're also landlocked, aren't you? To get to Korea, to get to Japan, you'll have to... How do you plan to transfer that energy? We always thought that this is our biggest disadvantage because Mongolia is the second biggest landlocked country in the world. But we surrounded, apparently, we acknowledged that we surrounded by two big oceans. Two big markets. That's why all this sea road also going to China, going to Japan and Korea as well. That's why it's a good advantage for us. And that's why using them, market their capacity and approaching them, that's now an issue. And again, I agree with the expected experts of this sector is that the cost is the most important thing right now. And that's why keeping proper costs, competing on market value, that's the key to your particular region. Mr. Kim, what do you think about the Prime Minister's comments about how... Mr. Kim, first, about how Mongolia can transfer its energy and this regional sort of energy give and take? I mean, I think so we've seen where I think a lot of collaboration opportunities, for instance, where we've sourced a lot of our materials from China with the supply chain. And because we have manufacturing not only in China, but also in Malaysia and Southeast Asia, we've been utilizing the relatively lower cost of labor and lower energy prices with technology from Korea as well. And also in terms of what the Prime Minister said in terms of, I guess, I think because there's so much land available and because the irrigation is so good, I could see where we could have large solar projects in Mongolia and as long as we have the infrastructure in place to transport the energy to where energy is more needed in the coastal regions of China or even to Korea. Did you want to say? Let me talk about in a more general perspective. I think China's message is quite clear. We have a large overcapacity at this moment, not just energy, all other sectors. And the message here is that, look, we can manipulate mutually from this overcapacity. In other words, my coal-fired power plant's most effective system there can generate much cheaper than the new one you're going to build. Of course, from a government perspective, this is quite obvious. However, there's some difficulties, for example, like political issues. But I would say that moving forward, the energy company is also preparing for that. The energy company traditionally is quite busy, trying to meet the demand. When China is doing 100 gigawatts per year, that's larger than most of the country over all capacity in the world. So at that time, we do not have time to focus on efficiency and innovation and reforms. So I think the Chinese energy company are preparing for the try to, if, let's say, energy, if energy demand keep a current level, let's say, electricity go to 3%. 20% of the surplus, it takes a long time. And possibly for many neighboring countries. Well, Mr. Hindoja, let's talk about India. Obviously, energy security will also be an issue, energy self-sufficiency. What is your take on how India will play in the regional sort of energy security issue? I didn't get your question. The question is, with India's own sort of issues, energy issues, how will it sort of integrate with the regional energy infrastructure? How do you foresee that? What role will India play? You can see about the hydropower from Bhutan. We have built hydropower in Bhutan, where the energy is coming in to India. In a similar manner, now we are planning to see, through Nepal, there they have a hydropower capacity also. But isn't hydropower even more expensive than solar right now? Hydropower isn't even more expensive than solar? No, hydropower, you see hydropower, India has a know-how. And they have built up several projects in India. So they're trying to bring in the energy through the transmission from the other part of the world. Now you see today in India, there is a huge China, has got a huge manufacturing capacity of solar panels, which they are not able to consume. Now these panels, if they are given to India, this can be a great help for both the economies. Their manufacturing capacity can grow in a big way, and they can move it into the cost-wise, which can be a win-win situation, like the Prime Minister said today. You heard in the speech, Mr. Lee said, that there can be a win-win situation for the countries if they are able to cooperate with each other. So this cooperation's plan of understanding has to be done by the people to sit together and come to a solution. And this can be of a great solution for, also not for India, but for the African countries. I'm sorry, I just want to, we don't have much time for the audience questions, but before we turn to the audience, very briefly, can I just get each of your views on COP 21, how your countries will be responding to that, and what your views are? Do we stand a very reasonable chance of the world agreeing to a legally binding agreement to cut carbon emissions? Your take on COP 21, coming at the end of the year in Paris, very short answers so we can turn to the audience for questions. Starting with Mr. Lim? I think it's more promising at this moment, but still difficult. With China's number at this point, I think China has a very good chance of trying to convince other people that its target on CO2 will be met. If that will help the general agreement, then I think it's good. I'm sure China will play a major role. Mr. Kim? I'm personally pretty optimistic because I think economics will drive for economics and because I think innovation will continue in the manufacturing sector to drive and to allow that to happen. So I think I'm pretty optimistic that China and others will be able to meet those pretty ambitious numbers. And India? Well, I see that the energy control in the world is today by two countries, America and China. If America and China comes to some understanding, so the problem of the energy is, you know, can be solved. With the African world, which is a big continent, same thing in India in a big way. And this is a time where I mean to say the visit of the president of China, which is going to take place, you know, in Washington. That should be an agenda where they should talk about this energy issue. Okay. Very brief answer and connecting all these laws, policy guidelines and moving in the right direction in this regard. Okay. Well, we have about 18 minutes left, so I would like to open up the floor now. Please raise your hand and wait for our staff to hand you a mic. I think the first question came from here, right in front of me. Yes? In the front row? Front row? Yes. Look to your right, please, sir. In the region, we have obvious inefficiencies. You said about- Please identify yourself. My name is Zorik. I'm a former minister of energy and mineral resources from Mongolia. In the region, we have obvious, very obvious inefficiencies. You said there is an overcapacity, a big overcapacity now in China, but at the same time, we have a highest priced market in Japan. We have, the Northeast Asian region is one of the largest producers of emissions, but at the same time, we have a Gobi Desert, which is the second largest in terms of renewable energy potential after Sahara Desert. Russia and Mongolia could be one of the cheapest producers of energy, hydro as well as coal. But so, to address these inefficiencies, we require a regional action and opening and liberalizing the markets, connecting the markets, I think the obvious actions that are required. Do you think, especially the Prime Minister, do you think there is a necessity for a regional forum, especially the Northeast Asian regional forum, at the governmental and business level to address this liberalization and connectivity issues at the regional level? Thank you. For exactly for this reason, so we just held the regional meeting in Lombardy in July of this year and talked exactly about these topics. And again, I really also agree with Mr. Zarek, former minister for this sector, and the connectivity is the most important thing right now, the network. But again, to establish this network, to establish this connectivity, the most important factor is that cost. I agree with Mr. Chin and he's saying, even though China has now our capacity again, the main player in this environment, the cost. If you are providing the low-cost energy, I think any government will go after that. And that's the key. Okay. Thank you for your question. I know we have one at the back there. Thank you. Gantung from Myanmar. I'd just like to ask a question to Mr. Lim. Since China has an overcapacity and the regional country has a huge demand, do you foresee the sick road power grid? And what are the challenges to visualise this kind of infrastructure? Thank you. Well, China would really love to do that. Now the question is why all other countries will respond to that or not. I really believe that the primary idea of sharing the capacity is really good for everyone. And interconnection means that you can really level up the tariff, and most of it will reduce the cost. And even more important, we can absorb higher percentage of the green energy, given the condition that we still don't have storage at this moment. So put everything together, you're right. I think it's quite important. And China is determined to move in that direction one way or the other. So now the question is how other countries will respond to China's request that most of China's encouragement. We have on the second row here. My name is Kelstair from Company Danfors. There's one thing I miss in your presentation, and that is the focus on energy efficiency. There is an enormous potential with fast feedback or with fast payback if we focus on that part of our energy options or explore that part and the technology is ready for that. If we take a building we sit in right now, we can have air conditioning units that are cooling the building down with 30% less energy. The technology is ready today. But I think we need legislation to support and trigger that. But the payback time we are talking about 20 or we are talking about two, three years whereas when we are talking about energy supply windmills, we are talking about payback times of 20 years. It's much faster. The same goes for surplus energy. We have been running a project with heat plants in northern China and the surplus energy is used for district heating. Here we are also talking about two, three years payback time. Do you have a question? I miss the focus on that when we want to explore that. Don't you see there is a huge potential there? Would anyone like to address the issue of energy efficiency? As you pointed out, we have not addressed that in our discussion. I think that's a very good question. I also believe that energy efficiency potential is enormous, particularly in developing countries. As I said, China now is getting ready to address the efficiency issue. Let's go back to my earlier comment before we really try to meet the demand. So, we are busy with efficiency, not the first priority. But moving forward, efficiency becomes number one. Meeting demand becomes number two. That's why we have reforms. The Premier Li Keqiang emphasized many times. In fact, the next six years from now until 2020 will be the reform years for China. Not only for any sector, but also for other sectors. From the company perspective, what are they going to go? Because they cannot go for quantity anymore. So right now, what they try to figure out is how to manipulate from macro-level reform to try to get efficiency at micro-level and focus on innovation on the cost-cutting and most of efficiency, etc. So, I think that from both sides, in the future, China is going to be very good on this one. What about other countries? Would you like to step in and talk about energy efficiency? No? Okay, we'll move on to another question then. Yes. Second row. Thank you, Zhu Chen. Thank you, Chairman. I'm with Tencent Finance News. I'm with Tencent Finance. My question goes to Mongolia Premier. How do you make sure the Mongolian regime stays stable enough to protect the investors' money within Mongolia? We know that when regime changes, some negotiations and projects were interrupted. Thank you for a good and direct question. And I also want to address this issue as well. Mongolia is actually a two-party system country. And whoever comes into power in terms of foreign investment, in terms of investment policy, in terms of stability, there won't be any changes. And I'm saying it very officially. I'm trying to explain it. And next year, also, we're going to have elections. Every four years, we have elections. But in terms of foreign policy, investment policy, there is no changes. And also, we have investment law. And according to this investment law, any investor, no matter who is foreign, who is local, is going to be treated equally as same. And also, government, every day's action is trying to reduce disruption issues, bureaucratic issues. And no matter who's coming and no matter after changing the policies, there is no changes. And as I previously mentioned, Mr. Tsarukhtys, Prime Minister of Energy, and current Minister of Energy, also sitting here. No changes, even in the names of Ministers, no changes. Thank you for your question. I think we have time for one more question. Yes? Ken Choi from Chosun Daily Newspaper, Korea. None of you talked about the effect of US shale gas on the energy market. Can somebody just elaborate about how you guys are preparing about the US shale gas? So the impact of US shale. Yes, Mr. Kim? So I think there's been a lot of perception that renewables will be hurt very badly by the shale gas in the United States. But I think in the solar industry, we've experienced very low gas prices, historically low gas prices for many, many, for over five, six years in the United States already. And the US is one of the hottest growing markets for solar energy at this time, and I think also for wind as well. So I think shale gas, I think, is a direct threat to coal and other forms of conventional power. But I think in terms of renewables, I think the shale gas impact does not impact renewables as much as it's commonly thought, especially in Asia. But I would say natural gas. Sorry? Natural gas. You know, the gas in India. This is going to replace the coal as well in India. Well, gas has been touted as sort of like the bridging energy has between oil and renewables as well. And do you all share that view that it will be the golden age of gas we've been talking about? There will be a great future for the gas to replace the coal. Everyone agrees or anyone disagree? Well, a few months ago, we still believe that's the case. OK, well, we have about a couple of minutes left. And I want to ask each of our panelists to just briefly mention your biggest takeaway from this session, and maybe that you would like to share with our audience what they should take from this session as well. Just very briefly, each comment from each panelist. Let's begin with Prime Minister Chimette. You know, the situation in the market is very clear, and tendencies are also very clear. And also the situation with China, the situation with Japan, Korea, it's understandable. And now the main thing is that we need to make more actions. We need to make more investment. We need to make more networks. But again, the most important thing, as I previously mentioned, it's cost-oriented activity. And how to reduce it? Is it renewable energy, or is it Right now, I'm sorry, I'm representing government, Prime Minister, and that's why maybe I'm talking very pragmatically. But right now, if you're going to offer to any government, is that it's much higher cost, and it's renewable energy. This is a little cheaper, and not cheaper, and it's traditional. Of course, any government is going to make these kind of decisions. And there is no fortune-teller will be needed. But again, we're moving in the right direction. And that's why in step-by-step, face-by-face, we need to move to this direction. And again, the technology, the improvement, the standardization, and investment, these are the issues that's going to address this concern. Mr. Hinduja. Well, I would request the energy ministers who are over here, both of them as the, if they are going to focus, to see how, I mean to say, they can able to help the different countries of the world. Because now they have got the technology, they have manufacturing capacity, they have all the potentiality and the best of the mind they have contributed to China in the energy sector. This is the opportunity that they should come out and come to the world wherever the energy is requirement, like India and Africa. And this is a way they could have a win-win situation, which we are already doing. We are working with having a dialogue with many Chinese companies to come to India and grow in partnerships. So public-private partnership should be the best solution for the future for the energy concept. Mr. Ken? For me, I think the biggest takeaway was, I guess, it reinforced my belief that for renewables to be adopted at a mass scale cost is absolutely the most important factor. But also that as long as we can meet the cost, I think there is very real demand, and there is huge potential for economic growth, just transforming the power system as well. I think that I have described quite a difficult situation for energy sector in China. But I would like to make a personal forecast for what move forward, what's going to happen. I believe that the current low energy demand is really not a usual situation. It's a system that we should respond to the structural economic changes that suddenly become a very different environment. But moving forward, let's say next year, I believe that the energy demand is going to go from this year from 1% to roughly at least 3% next year. Moving forward possibly to 4% in the 4% to 5% in the following years. So the reason I'm saying that is that keep believing that China moving forward is promising. And primarily saying that, and also from energy sector, I also like to emphasize that this is a temporary situation. And also you look at the import, I also assume that international investors that from import perspective, our import decline is actually only from the coal sector. But natural gas and oil sector, the imports they increase substantially in the first six months of this year. So as we bring this session to a close, I think the common themes that have arisen is that cost is always a matter, especially for emerging and developing economies. But technology is helping to bring the cost down as is mutual cooperation and regional collaboration between different stages of technology advanced countries. And this is a collaboration that will only grow in the future through regional forms and other strategic partnerships as well. And as Asia is definitely forecast to be the major driver of energy growth in the future, all eyes will be on us to try to reach that growth in a more sustainable and responsible way. And I'd like to thank the panelists for your insights. And I'd like to also thank our audience for taking part in this special discussion on Asia's energy options from Dalian, China. And this is Adean TV, Nassun Yan. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you.